Talk:Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven)/Archive 1

ETA Hoffman's 'opinion' seems overly repetitive and somewhat irrelevant when quoted as a (literally/explicitly) unqualified authority

Given that the 2nd sentence of the opening already is This symphony is one of the most popular and well-known compositions in all of European classical music, and one of the most often-played symphonies., why do we need to read about ETA Hoffman's saying so as well just 2 sentences down the road? it seems a rather pointless repetition of the earlier statement, which is already referenced. This way anyone reading it is just going to wonder why they're supposed to believe Hoffman's word as quoted here (I've noticed his opinions being used in more Beethoven articles without being explicitly referenced) Boombaard (talk) 00:25, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I've trimmed the Hoffmann cites and flagged the second one for lacking a specific citation. The removed text included a sentence fragment, so I suspect that we have been treated to an amateur translation from Hoffmann's original German. If anyone wants to excise both Hoffmann quotes, I won't object. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 15:45, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Remove Skidmore College?

The Skidmore College Orchestra is horrible, it's worse than wooden. Would anyone be interested in removing it? 70.23.146.247 (talk) 07:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes please please please, someone do it. So very bad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.163.160 (talk) 05:23, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

The Struggle between Man and Fate

This symphony is widely known as the "Fate" symphony. While the the claim that the opening theme represents "Fate knocking at the door" is probably apocryphal, I'm sure there is a reason that the symphony (as a whole) is often said to represent the struggle between man and Fate (where the last movement depicts the triumph over Fate). Did the association of this symphony (as a whole) with Fate also follow from Anton Schindler (in which case it would be problematic), or did it follow from more legitimate sources? If the association of this symphony with Fate is problematic, then does this great symphony have any sort of "unifying" theme(s) at all? Spartan 76.166.97.147 05:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The symphony is not "widely known" as "Fate". Just by way of example (I know it's not conclusive), today ""Beethoven Symphony No. 5 (Fate)" googled only a couple of thousand hits, about a hundredth of the number of results for "Beethoven Symphony No. 5". --RobertG ♬ talk 08:38, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

The "Fate" motif

I've tried to update the scholarship on Anton Schindler's claim that Beethoven told him that the opening theme represents "Fate knocking at the door". Schindler's evidentiary status has apparently dropped quite a bit since it was found that he fabricated entries in Beethoven's conversation books, so it seems not at all unlikely that the phrase comes entirely from Schindler. This site forthrightly calls Schindler's story a "concoction".

I did my best to translate the German, which I took from the German Wikipedia entry. If anyone can fix it I would be grateful.

Opus33 21:04, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Fate = Death

In the above discussions, many think that instead of "fate" it is "death" knocking on the door in this symphony. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.58.177.28 (talk) 03:23, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Beethoven was in comparatively good health and the obvious peal of his creative powers, and he was not especially concerned with death when he was in his thirties. "Fate" could have just as easily been some political trend (freedom? Unification of the German people?) or (he was a Catholic) the Second Coming of Christ or the final Judgment as death. I wouldn't make much of a word so mystical and ambiguous as "fate".

Death knocking at the door? More likely Shostakovich, in reference to the the secret police of Stalin!Pbrower2a (talk) 14:51, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

How do you spell "Schicksal"?

I've reverted the change Schiksal --> Schicksal back to Schiksal; here is the reasoning.

In contemporary German they do indeed spell their word for "fate" as Schicksal, but I believe Schindler probably wrote "Schiksal". At least, this is what I cribbed from the German Wikipedia, and Googling the spelling I find that it was used by major literary figures of Beethoven's day (Wieland, Goethe, Schiller). Unfortunately, I can't find a copy of Schindler in the original German, which would settle the issue.

In any event, assuming that Schindler wrote "Schiksal", and that this was not counted as a misspelling in Schindler's time, I would judge that we should quote Schindler literally and not try to change anything. Opus33 14:55, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Featured article preparations

I'm getting ready to nominate this article on wikipedia:Featured article candidates. I made some hefty changes tonight - I broke up the media section and put the ogg file for each movement with its associated paragraph; I pruned down and converted the popular cultural list into prose and pasted it back into here; I converted the list that was the composition into prose.

As someone who has done extensive work with featured articles, this article looks *good*. The biggest thing left to do is add inline references, and collect them in a references section. Raul654 04:02, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Fate knocking on the door in Warsaw, Prague or one of those cities

In one of my college music history classes, the story was told that the 1st movement of this symphony was played repeatedly on the radio during the Nazi invasion of either Warsaw, Prague or one of those eastern European cities. Does anyone have any evidence to corroborate the story or is it apochryphal? *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 16:46, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Another pop-culture reference

I'm surprised the Peter Schickele "sportscast" version was missed! I gather he used to do this in concerts, and it's also recorded on his P.D.Q. Bach On the Air album. It's basically the first movement to the symphony, with commentators (Schickele and Robert Dennis on the LP/tape/CD, and other secondary announcers depending on locale when performed live) discussing the movement as if it were a contest between orchestra and conductor. It's quite a funny routine, at least in my opinion. :) I didn't want to drop it right into the article, I wasn't sure just where it would best fit in. --JohnDBuell 22:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

da da da DUM

I want to help get this article to featured status. One of the objections brought up at its nomination is that the lead doesn't identify the motif to people who can't read music. Most people will be able to recognize this motif after any reasonable approximation of it, but how can we get it across in text?

"Three short notes followed by a longer, lower note" would be accurate and would help to establish the short-short-short-long rhythmic motif as being important. But it's not really direct. My thought -- and this is going to come across as somewhat silly -- is that we need to work in an onomatopoetic version of the motif, like "da da da DUM", in the lead section. And that will be sufficient to get a lot of people to recognize what it is. It was enough for Douglas Adams. Thoughts? rspeer 00:39, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

But there's no "d" sound in the music. It could just as easily be "buh buh buh BUM". I agree with mentioning that rendering to make it clearer to most people which song this is, but it should be worded as "This motif is commonly rendered as 'da da da DUM'" or similar, with a cite provided, to illustrate how laypeople often understand and refer to the tune rather than to have Wikipedia make the claim that the song really sounds exactly like that. -Silence 00:43, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Please, no. I'd say more than somewhat silly (onomatopeia only helps if you already know the motif). We could put in a link to an audio clip, though. Mark¹ 00:48, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Another barrier to entry. Most people don't actually have an ogg player, and independently of that, most people are not going to click the link. Also, most people do already know the motif, but don't necessarily know that it's the motif of "Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven)". The point of "da da da DUM" is to give people a handle to recall it by. rspeer 01:12, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but it's too damn dumb. Mark¹ 01:27, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Mark, I find your style of argument both here and on the FAC page to be unhelpful. If someone doesn't understand musical terminology, you seem to be saying, it's because they're dumb. If you disagree with an addition to the page, it's because it's dumb. Could you make your criticism more constructive toward fixing this article, particularly the goal of making it accessible to a lay audience? rspeer 01:36, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps I can clarify. People who don't understand musical terminology are not (necessarily) stupid, but they are ignorant. Encyclopedias are meant to dispel ignorance rather than pander to it, hence my lack of enthusiasm for your proposal. Mark¹ 01:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. Shall we rename Wikipedia:Make technical articles accessible to Wikipedia:Pander to ignorance, then? Even "ignorant" readers (which is not the word I would use to describe people who are unfamiliar with the topic) are entitled to learn. rspeer 01:59, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that this article is already extremely untechnical and perfectly accessible to the general reader. I think we just have different expectations of our readers. Mark¹ 02:09, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

You can believe what you want, but the FAC comments say that the article needs to be made more accessible. rspeer 02:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Some people think it needs to be made more accessible, some don't. This is not a big surprise. Mark¹ 08:28, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I think a sound file could be sufficient. If people don't have an ogg player, that's their problem. One might as well argue that the image is insufficient even for those who can read music, since not everyone has a browser that displays images. We have to restrict our helpfulness somehow. I am opposed to an onomatopoeic description of the motif (e.g. da-da-da-DUM) since it is non-standard (otherwise, please cite an encyclopedia that uses a similar notation). However, a description like "three short notes and one long" is far better, and probably the least controversial way of solving this problem. EldKatt (Talk) 11:24, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Does the da da da DUM in question have anything to do with Morse code? It spell's out the letter V. The song was writen in Morse's lifetime however I am unsure if there is any relation. If it does have any link could this be added to a "trivia" section? - UnregisteredUser —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.72.54.162 (talk) 15:42, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, V is the Roman numeral for 5, 5th symphony. I think this is of worthy note. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.72.54.162 (talk) 09:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The Fifth Symphony may not have been influenced by Morse code. The Wikipedia entry on Morse code says it wasn't developed until the 1840s. However there is a reverse influence from the 20th century. My mother often talked about the Second World war and her interest in music to my sister and I and on several occasions described the use of the opening notes of the Fifth Symphony as the call sign for BBC radio broadcasts to occupied Europe. V V meaning "V for Victory".58.109.104.65 (talk) 02:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC) Peter Davies

As much as you think the song would be instantly recognizable by writing da da da DUM this is not really the case. Unless you have the exact song in your head da da da DUM isn't going to help you recognize this song. Da da da Dum could be applicable to thousands of songs. For example as much as Viva la Vida sounds like "da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da" or the Hey Song sounds like "dun dun dun, der dun, der dun" using this would be massively inefficient to describe these songs. 211.27.4.150 (talk) 02:52, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The meaning of the German word "Akademie"

The current text uses the phrase "the Akademie", suggesting perhaps that "Akademie" designated some sort of building or institution. But in this context, it apparently should be translated simply as "concert" (or, perhaps, "benefit concert"; see below). The New Grove says:

"As in other countries, the word 'academy' was also often used in Germany and in Austria to mean a single concert (Mozart habitually used the term)."

(Quotation is from their article "Academy".) This site [1] says:

"Beethoven never missed an opportunity to complain about his treatment at the hands of the Viennese, but there is no doubt that they held this extraordinary and difficult man in the greatest esteem. He often appeared before the public, and in return for performing and conducting at charity concerts in the Theater an der Wien, he was granted use of the theatre to mount an Akademie (concert) of his own works.

What I'm not sure about is whether "Akademie" is best translated as "concert" or "benefit concert". You can get hints if you Google "beethoven akademie benefit concert", but of course this only gives you Web sources and not peer-reviewed scholarship. From my general reading, I recall fairly certainly that the concert at which the 5th Symphony was premiered was indeed a benefit for the composer.

Pending solid scholarly citations on this point (please help if you can), I'm just taking the two occurrences of "Akademie" out of the article. Otherwise, we're saying stuff that means:

"The Fifth Symphony was premiered on December 22, 1808 at the "concert", a mammoth concert at the Theater an der Wien in Vienna."

which of course is no help at all.

Opus33 20:09, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, when adding references to this article, one or two sources called it a benefit concert. Raul654 23:15, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

3rd movement repeat and Zinman

I was surprised to read that ABABA' performances on modern instruments have ... been recorded by the Zürich Tonhalle Orchestra under David Zinman and the edition by Jonathan Del Mar, published by Bärenreiter in 1999 restores the ABA' reading. The Zinman recording blurb gets very excited about the fact that it's the first version to follow the Del Mar score, so I suspect one of the statements in the article is incorrect. Mark¹ 16:11, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

There appear to be two Beethoven cycles by Zinman. A quite recent (late 2005) one (Arte Nova, #496950[2]) does indeed use the new Bärenreiter edition. However, there is also a recording from 1999 (also Arte Nova, but apparently out of print[3]) that does not. The statements in the article are correct, although somehow making it clearer which recording is referred to would help. EldKatt (Talk) 18:39, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I have a cycle by him on Arte Nova (it says 1999 on the box, but it was recorded in 1997) which claims to be of the Bärenreiter edition. I haven't actually checked the form of the third movement, though. Mark¹ 19:18, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Mark and EldKatt. I must admit that at present I am baffled, particularly by the 2003-4 Penguin Guide, which says that Zinman both used Bärenreiter and played the scherzo as ABABA'. Mark, if you would take a listen to your copy and report what you find I would appreciate it. For my part, I am going to find Bärenreiter in a library and check that it really is ABA'. Thanks, Opus33 19:35, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Might it be talking about a previous Bärenreiter edition? If it was recorded in 1997, I doubt there's a possibility of it having used Del Mar's edition, and that probably wasn't the first Bärenreiter ever published. EldKatt (Talk) 12:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Del Mar's sleevenote (see below) makes it clear that the 1997 recording was based on a Bärenreiter edition by him. Mark¹ 14:26, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've had a listen. I'm no musicologist, but I'm fairly sure that Zinman, in 1997, did play ABABA. I notice that this page refers to the Bärenreiter being published in 1999, while at the bottom it says:

Ludvig van Beethoven. Symphonies 1–9. Urtext. Edited by Jonathan Del Mar. Kassel: Bärenreiter, 1996–2000

Also, Del Mar wrote a sleevenote for the Zinman edition which does not mention the repeat question at all- the highlighted change for the 5th symphony is a tie in the bassoon part of the second movement! So perhaps Zinman was working from Del Mar's work in progress, before the latter decided that the repeat was wrong? Mark¹ 20:08, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Hello,

Well, I found the Del Mar edition. It was published 1999 and does indeed have ABA' for the scherzo. My current favorite two theories for explaining Mark's contradiction are: (a) that Zinman used a prepublication version of Del Mar which was ABABA', or (b) that Zinman used a prepublication version of Del Mar which was ABA', but chose not to follow Del Mar on this particular point. Perhaps one might learn more by contacting Del Mar or Zinman personally? At any rate, I don't think we've put any falsehoods into the Wikipedia on this point.

Opus33 22:05, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

A Clockwork Orange

This excerpt from the popular references section surprises me:

In addition to its appearances in other music, it has also been referenced in other media. In Anthony Burgess's novel A Clockwork Orange, Alex DeLarge, the main character, frequently listens to Beethoven. For Alex, the music is inexorably linked to his life of rape and murder; he places the Fifth Symphony above all other works. (In the Kubrick cinematic version, Alex prefers the Ninth.)

I recall the ninth playing an important role in the book, but not really the fifth. Can anyone provide a reference for this claim? EldKatt (Talk) 14:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Beethoven's 9th is the piece of music which is dominant in the film the Clockwork Orange. Although he is a fan of Beethoven full stop this is the piece which appears in the film —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.100.93.140 (talk • contribs) 14:26, 7 July 2007

Still no reference ... +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:05, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

The reference to Beethoven's Fifth in A Clockwork Orange, at least the movie, is simply to the chime of a doorbell. Such a use is kitsch characteristic of a time in which bad taste by standards of even the 1970s has become the norm. Pbrower2a (talk) 14:59, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Infobox

I am respectfully asking my fellow editors not to place "infoboxes" in classical music articles. I have three reasons:

• Each work of classical music is its "own animal", as it were, and is not easily reduced to a few traits displayable in infoboxes. They're not like "Magic the Gathering" cards.
• The box occupies space up top, and renders the far more crucial Table of Contents hard to find.
• Lastly--and perhaps most importantly--there's an esthetic element. Many works of classical music are beloved by their listeners. They can be listened to hundreds of times over the listener's lifetime. Thus, some of our readers are likely to venerate the works in question and be sensitive to potential acts of desecration. An infobox looks a lot like a display ad and strikes me as a good candidate for being a desecration.

Thank you for your understanding.

Sincerely,
Opus33 17:18, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I understand your reason, but then other pages with infoboxes (not just classical works) could fit under your reasons. --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 03:11, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Also see this and this. --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 03:13, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely with Opus33. Writers and readers of classical music articles do tend to be a high-minded lot, and we don't want our articles to look like USA Today. I think the classical works infobox project is misguided. Mark¹ 12:17, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd hate to think that high-mindedness were the only reason to avoid classical infoboxes—fortunately, there are practical difficulties along with the potential philosophical ones. If we would attempt to have a single universal "classical works" infobox, it quite simply wouldn't fit all its potential applications—fields would be left blank in many cases, and a lot of relevant information would be missing in others. Even creating a series of more specialized templates would be quite problematic. The general field of "classical music works" can't be divided up into a few neat subtypes with their own special traits. This time, we'll have to trust people to actually read the articles—trying to summarize it in an infobox wouldn't really help anyone here. EldKatt (Talk) 14:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) I concur with Opus33, Markalexander100 (and now EldKatt). I have the additional objection that in classical music the information the template asks for is rarely simple, often requiring research and explanation, and so the template is actually misleading because it implies otherwise. For instance, op. numbers are in no way a reliable guide to Beethoven's chronology, so the infobox should not imply it is. Composers often work on more than one composition at a time. What key is Nielsen's 3rd in? Mahler's 9th? Webern's Op. 10? Reich's Music for pieces of wood? Which revision of each Bruckner symphony will the infobox refer to? Which completion of Mozart's requiem? Are Chopin's waltzes Op. 64 to be treated as one work, or three? I do not think these examples are obscure rare exceptions to a rule. The album infobox on which it was based does not suffer from these problems since recording an album is usually a discrete process (the release date, album chronology, label, duration and genre are usually unproblematic). I feel there is so much classical music for Wikipedians to document that it's a waste of effort to set ourselves the impossible task of agreeing on a simple infobox that will satisfactorily summarise each one in the whole diversity of classical compositions. All the information the infobox could possibly contain could be much better outlined in the introductory paragraph for any article. --RobertG ♬ talk 15:49, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of copying this discussion to Template talk:Classical work infobox. Would that be a more appropriate place for this discussion to continue? --RobertG ♬ talk 15:49, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

On the popular culture section

Hello,

I've made some changes to the material on popular culture and would like to justify the changes here.

The changes:

• I've taken the popular culture material and made it into a separate article, just as it was as of last November.
• This article is no longer an unorganized list, but is arranged into categories (Musical adaptations and Other references), much as Raul654 did here.
• I've also arranged the material chronologically by decade, and put in notes encouraging future editors to do this.
• The Fifth Symphony article now includes just a brief cross reference to the popular culture article.

So why do this?

• First, I believe that if we are to cover this sort of material at all, we should cover it thoroughly--scholarly completeness is a good thing, and "the Wikipedia is not paper".

• More important, who are we to judge which popular culture items are the important ones, worthy of inclusion? In fact, to the extent that we are picking out what we think are the most important ones, and deleting all new entries, then we are actually doing a form of original research, which is verboten.

• Lastly, the symphony article is over the official length limit, and we need to be moving material into satellite articles (see for instance Beethoven and C minor). The pop culture material is a good candidate for moving, since it's only very indirectly about the symphony.

Yours sincerely,
Opus33 16:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Scoring

When I see the word "scoring", I think of a list of instruments used in the score. I think it would be nice to have this information (maybe I'll dig it up myself at some point).

I'm told this symphony was the first symphony (first symphonic work?) to use trombones. I'm thinking of putting that in, but can't decide if that's important enough to include in this article about what is already a very important work. Rschmertz 06:26, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

I agree, the scoring in that sense needs mentioning. I'll add it at some point unless somebody beats me to it. Indiana University has full scores of all the symphonies (as well as a lot of other things) at this location. I'm not sure how reliable they really are, though; the edition of Beethoven's piano sonatas at the same site suffered from a great amount of editorial additions. The symphonies look better though.

One thing is for sure, though: there are no trombones. [See below!] As far as I know (and assume) none of Beethoven's symphonies have them. --EldKatt 28 June 2005 17:07 (UTC)

I don't know what possessed me to look only at the first movement, but there are definitely trombones used (in the final movement). Some googling seems to (more or less) confirm that this was indeed also the first symphonic use of trombones (as well as piccolo, which, I guess, also deserves to be mentioned if the trombones are).

--EldKatt 30 June 2005 09:57 (UTC)

EDIT - I have corrected the article while leaving the original, incorrect information intact. Joachim Eggert, just as one now fairly well-known example, wrote a symphony that uses trombones (in all four movements). As far as the statement on the piccolo, that one is a statement I had not before encountered. As a collector of late 18th century music, I have in my own collection multiple symphonies that include a piccolo in the original score, that were composed prior to Beethoven`s 5th symphony, or even prior to Beethoven`s birth.

--Smyslov 27 April 2007 00:05 (UTC)

Regarding the trombones, you appear to be right. As far as piccolo goes, though: if I'm not mistaken, "flauto piccolo" and similar names, in 18th century music, often refer to some sort of recorder rather than a piccolo in the modern sense. This might complicate matters somewhat. EldKatt (Talk) 18:04, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Hello Smyslov,

I appreciate your correcting the old error about scoring. However, it's generally not permitted to edit the Wikipedia solely on the basis of your own knowledge, no matter how good your knowledge may be. (For the official policy, please see Wikipedia:Verifiability). Therefore, would you kindly amplify your contribution by citing reference sources? Ideally, these should be in peer-reviewed outlets, such as the New Grove. Thank you very much.

Yours sincerely, Opus33 16:34, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

This is such common knowledge among music scholars that to me it is similar to asking for sources as to whether or not World War II happened. I mean no offence, but I didn`t know anyone serious about music history still believed in this absurd legend. It is based purely around Beethoven`s extreme fame, and nothing more; famous composers often get credit for things for which they do not deserve. Another example, is that Brahms` 'Variations on a Theme of Haydn' are based on a theme not even by Haydn. Most everyone knows this now. But can I cite a source proving it? Not off the top of my head, no. It is simply so well-known that I can`t even think of one. In any case, try:

The Symphony, 1720-1840, edited by Barry Brook, Series F Volume III

The Symphony in Sweden, part 2, edited by Bertil van Boer, Garland (New York 1983)

Lennart Hedwall, Svensk Musikhistoria ["Swedish Music History"], Edition Reimers (1996), pgs 61-63

Or simply contact Dr. Alan Badley of Artaria in New Zealand, or Dr. Bertil van Boer, or Avishai Kallai (possibly the biggest expert on Joachim Eggert in the world). Or contact the Stockholm Music History Museum, which still holds an original manuscript of Eggert`s Symphony in E-Flat Major, that predates Beethoven`s Symphony #5.

I would like to comment that even if I were completely unable to cite sources, it is better to say nothing about "first symphony to use ..." at all, rather than have false information in an article.

--Smyslov 30 April 2006 02:09 (UTC)

Aside from Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Cite sources, please see Wikipedia:Common knowledge. If something really is common knowledge, it should be possible to find sources (and, well, there are plenty of sources to back up the existence of World War II, aren't there?). If you cannot find sources to back up what you consider to be common knowledge, then perhaps you should reconsider. In this case, you have already cited sources, so I completely fail to see the problem. The system works. I would still like a source regarding the piccolo, though. EldKatt (Talk) 11:26, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Could I add a bit more? Smyslov seems to have misinterpreted my intention. I wasn't trying to challenge the claim he made, but to persuade him to include citations in the article. This is what the New Grove does, it's what the Encyclopedia Brittanica does, and it's what we should do.

In principle, I could try to find Smyslov's reference books in my local library, read them, and add the citations myself. But surely it would be more efficient for Smyslov to do it himself, since presumably he has read them already.

Yours truly, Opus33 17:31, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Major to Minor Key Shift

Someone has made the claim that Beethoven's fifth contains the first example of a minor to major key shift used in a symphony, which I find very difficult to believe. Can anyone verify this? If true, it would be a good point to add to the article.-Jefu 02:52, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not true. Symphony No. 45 (Haydn), Symphony No. 95 (Haydn). Opus33 17:31, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Portrait Problems

The portrait at the top of the article was painted years after Beethoven died. Should we use another one?--Stratford15 01:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Should we use one at all? If people want to see what Beethoven looked like, I reckon they can go to Ludwig van Beethoven. I've replaced the portrait with the image of the original edition coversheet (previously in the "Premiere" section) which I consider far more relevant to and illustrative of the subject of the article. EldKatt (Talk) 11:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm quite glad to see that bogus Jaeger portrait go. But perhaps it wouldn't hurt to install the 1804 Maehler portrait, somewhere lower down on the page? 1804 was the year Beethoven began work on the symphony. You can view the portrait on the Wikimedia Commons at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Beethoven_3.jpg. I find it an intuitively good fit with the symphony, and will put it up in a few days if no one objects. Cheers, Opus33 16:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Image of the opening notes

Hello--

I don't object to substituting svg (I guess that's vector graphics?) for png, however, in this particular case there are two problems:

1) The groups of three eighth notes have to be connected with a single bar; in ordinary music notation you can't group them as 1 + 2.

2) Sizing the image at 550 will cause it to be displayed below the cover page picture on smaller monitors; it looks really bad. So the original size should be retained.

For now, I've fixed these problems by reverting to the original png image.

Yours truly,
Opus33 17:05, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

P.S. If there is some actually advantage to using svg, I'd be curious to know what it is.

This should also use a more conventional engraving font than the one used for the svg (this looks like a Jazz handwritten-style typesets; not really appropriate for Beethoven). Also, the grouping should follow the notation in the original score. The three eighth notes should be beamed. (We should possibly even have the ff written in.) Also, the svg one we had here briefly wastes screen space with its wide spacing. - Rainwarrior 23:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Never mind about the font, it just looks a little weird when the SVG is scaled down (the flats seem to get bold, for some reason). But still, having a properly beamed PNG is much more desirable than having an inaccurate SVG. (And if possible, it would be good to fix the spacing.) Is there even really a need to switch to SVG if no improvement of accuracy can be made? The image is currently perfectly legible. SVGs can be resized, but what is the advantage of that in this case? Why would it need to be resized? - Rainwarrior 07:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't object to the use of svg in principle. But I agree with Rainwarrior that whatever we post should look as perfect and as professional on the screen as possible. I'm also a bit perturbed that Wereon keeps uploading his/her image without participating in the discussion, and I am ready (presumably, so is Rainwarrior) to revert uploads that don't address the issues that have been raised. Opus33 22:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I have made a new png at Media:Beethoven symphony 5 opening new.png. See Image_talk:Beethoven symphony 5 opening new.png for the lilypond code should anyone wish to upload it as an svg. Jobrahms 15:09, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Second Subject of Exposition

In the "Reassigning Bassoon notes to the horns" section, the article refers to the quoted passage as the "second subject of the exposition" - incorrectly, I believe, as the second subject is a completely different, conjunct and lyrical, theme in E flat major. The quoted passage is just an extension of the first motif with changed intervals. I haven't corrected it in the article because I am not entirely certain that I am right - and I wouldn't know what to change it to - but there it is. 211.30.115.48 11:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I've attempted to clarify it somewhat. EldKatt (Talk) 14:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Blue Tits

I always hear the call of a Blue Tit in the opening four notes - and vice versa - and have always understood that this was B.'s inspiration. Is that not the case and, if it is, should it be mentioned in the article? Andy Mabbett 14:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

What do frostbitten breasts have to do with classical music? Wahkeenah 15:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I always hear the call of a Blue Tit in the opening four notes - and vice versa - and have always understood that this was B.'s inspiration. Andy Mabbett 15:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

You would have to find a citation, as personal experience is insufficient, even if true. Meanwhile, I'm sorry to hear about the frostbitten woman singing in the woods. Wahkeenah 16:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Are the opening notes a cliché?

Hello, we've got a dispute going about whether the article should say that the opening notes should be termed a "cliché". For reference, here is how WP defines this term:

A cliché is a phrase, expression, or idea that has been overused to the point of losing its intended force or novelty, especially when at some time it was considered distinctively forceful or novel.

Perhaps it's not appropriate to give my own opinion, but I don't think that for me Beethoven's motif is a cliché, at least from this definition. I find that the symphony continues to be "forceful and novel" to me, no matter how many times I listen to it. I doubt that I am unusual in this respect.

So, assuming that the WP definition of "cliché" is appropriate, I would like to agree with editor Nubbin, and respectfully disagree with editor ILike2BeAnonymous, that saying "cliché" in this context is a personal opinion and therefore should be removed as a NPOV violation.

My suggested remedy, in fact, is to remove the entire first paragraph of the intro - putting the pop culture references (which many editors feel should be excluded from WP entirely) at the very top of the article strikes me as inappropriate. Opus33 23:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The purpose of an introduction is to generally explain the topic and its notability. Removing that paragraph would defeat this purpose. Raul654 23:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm the one who inserted the sentence, and I think the shoe fits here. Haven't checked the article on cliché here, but certainly one of the senses of the word describes the famous "dum-dum-dum-dummmm": for instance, from dictionary.com, one definition is "anything that has become trite or commonplace through overuse".

Of course, this indicates no disrespect to Beethoven, nor to the instrinsic power of the music itself, but only to say that through endless repetition, the phrase has become hackneyed. (I've even heard jokes that use this motif.) +ILike2BeAnonymous 00:54, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The description of the motif as "cliché" is opinion because it cannot be supported with facts. The word is subjective, and does not belong in an encyclopedia. As an example, this statement would never appear as a fact in a respectable hard news article; it would be presented as a quote or the statement would have an attribution. I would assume that the concept of journalistic objectivity would apply in this situation. Opus 33 clearly and effectively demonstrated that the word is subjective by stating that it's his/her opinion that the motif is not cliché, and I agree.

Also, ILike2BeAnonymous suggested that the motif has been endlessly repeated, and I respectfully disagree. My opinion and personal experience is that the motif appears occasionally, perhaps more often than other famous motifs, depending on context and media. (Radio, movies, television, etc.)

The statement could be changed to "Many people believe that the four note motif is cliché." However, even this cannot be supported with historical or statistical research, and begs the reader to ask "How many people? Where is the reference?"

I will concede that journalism and encyclopedic entries are never perfectly objective, but I believe we should at least aim for it. Nubbin 18:59, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I think you're insisting on "objectivity" (an non-existent chimera if there ever was one) while ignoring the elephant in the room, which is the fact that this motif really is a cliché. This only requires a minimal observation of various aspects of popular culture to ascertain; "da da da dum" appears in countless TV sitcoms, jokes, and elsewhere. (As further evidence, consider that this famous theme is one of the few that most people, otherwise totally ignorant of "classical music", will immediately recognize.)

In case some of the folks raising this objection are doing so because they perceive that calling this motif a cliché somehow demeans it, let me repeat that pointing this out in no way diminishes the intrinsic power and musical integrity of either the motif itself or the work of which it is the seed. It's simply recognizing reality.

If backed up against the wall, I suppose that references to this could be found, but the truth is at this point I'm just too damn lazy to look. +ILike2BeAnonymous 19:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Calling the motif a "cliché" is a value judgment. I understand that it wasn't your intention to demean the motif by calling it cliché, but the definition of the word (according to the American Heritage Dictionary and Dictionary.com) does suggest that the motif is trite and has lost it's impact through overuse. Some people would disagree, and maybe even find it offensive. Saying that something is trite or overused is not falsifiable or verifiable. That the motif is well-known and commonly used in popular culture is not in dispute, but calling it "cliché" is.

This NPR web site about Beethoven's 5th, while not completely free from opinions, has a description of the history of the piece. Nowhere does it say that the first four notes are cliché.

On this web site from Answers.com, it directly uses the text from the Wikipedia article, yet the cliché comment has been removed.

If you insist on leaving "the motif has become a musical cliché" in the article, then you must cite a reliable, published source. Until you find a reliable source, we should adhere to the official guidelines provided by Wikipedia's verifiability web site and delete the phrase. Nubbin 18:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Many bits of classical works are arguably "clichés", and many of them much more than this one. "Cliché" implies over-use. It would be hard to argue that the 5th is over-used. By contrast, just watch some old cartoon and see how they invoke the William Tell Overture or other "cavalry charge" themes every time there's a horse race of some kind. And what about Also Sprach Zarathustra? Now that's a cliché. But these popular uses only serve to illustrate the impact of a classical piece. Sorry, the 5th is not a cliche. It is fair to say that it's "very familiar to the general public", compared with Das Lied von der Erde for example. Wahkeenah 23:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

recording

Does anyone else think the horns are more pronounced in the Fuldaer Symphonisches Orchester's performance has a more pronounced horn section than usual? I don't know if all the versions I've heard aren't as Beethoven intended. Maybe there's a better downloadable version out there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redsxfenway (talk • contribs) 19:31, 5 July 2007

motif

I cannot possibly be the only person who gets the impression of French revolution from the rising battle between pastoral and ominous militaristic music in the first movement. The last movement speaks to me of pompous imperial grandeur. This explains to me the delay in writing from the start in 1804 as things changed rapidly in France with Napoleon making himself Emperor. This is pure opinion but I'm interested to know if it is expressed anywhere else, its the sort of opinion that it would have been dangerous to express at the time and that would have been as obvious as a kick in the teeth.Aach2 22:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Beethoven had no program for his Fifth Symphony. He chose the triumphal last movement for reasons of his choosing -- musical reasons. If he had sought to lament or mock the rise of Napoleon, then he would have done so. He had the talent to do either, although he seemed to not be particularly desirous of ending large works with tragic or sardonic material. He wrote what he wanted to write, and politics seem to be far less relevant in his music to him than they were for, for example, Dmitri Shostakovich. So far as I know, his only imaginable political statement in any piece of his music was to remove a dedication on his Third Symphony without changing the music. Pbrower2a (talk) 05:10, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Piccolo in Michael Haydn's symphonies

The #Trombones and piccolos section asserts that Michael Haydn's Symphony No. 19 in C major has a piccolo part, but Wikipedia says Symphony No. 19 is in D major (and doesn't mention piccolo). Also, the Grove article on Michael Haydn lists the instrumentation for all his symphonies and doesn't mention piccolo. Can we get a source for this? —Caesura^(t) 04:13, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

If you search the PDF for the source (Delarte, 2006) you won't even find the word "piccolo" in there. That source does mention a "Symphony in C major, Hob. I:C5, MH 188, Perger 10, Sherman 18" written in Salzburg in 1773 and with an instrumentation including two "piffari," which could conceivably be mistaken for piccoli by some ears. When the libraries re-open after Thanksgiving I'll look in (Sherman, 1993) and see if I can find any mentions of piccoli there. Jindřichův Smith (talk) 00:26, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Rock versions and other adaptations

Has anyone considered rock versions and other modern adaptations? For example while I have 2 set of B's symphonies (Blomstedt and Zinman), I also like this electric guitar version and think B, whose greatest strength was variations, would have liked the riffs in the 2nd half. -- Philcha (talk) 14:43, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that opens up the "pop culture references" box and then we'll have a list of hundreds of places where those four opening notes can be heard. The WP:CM has decided to remove those lists because they tend to take over the rest of the article. DavidRF (talk) 15:24, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

The article has already "opened up the pop culture references box" in the lead, with the historically important fact that "During World War II, the BBC used the four-note motif to introduce its radio news broadcasts because it evoked the Morse code letter "V" (· · · —, "victory")" - which is not in the main text and is also unreferenced. It might be better to open a "List of ..." article and then use 1 or 2 notable examples of various types in Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven). Other articles face the "pop culture references" problem rather than running away from it, e.g. Dinosaur. -- Philcha (talk) 15:36, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

We used to do those trivia-fork articles, but they all got deleted in 2007. See [Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Adagio for Strings in popular culture] and [Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1812 Overture in popular culture] for two examples. DavidRF (talk) 20:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Adagio for Strings in popular culture] says "The inclusion of this music tells us nothing about the piece, the works in which it's included, their relationship to each other or the real world." I see nothing wrong with an "Influences" section that deals strictly with influences on later music, including adaptations into different styles. IIRC many top composers were quick to adapt their previous compositions for new musical technology - notably J.S. Bach, who re-used his best movements as often as possible.

I think avoiding this would be a mistake, as it would put "classical" music in exactly the kind of ivory tower that Norman Lebrecht complains about in his columns. It's unnecessary, harmful and in some cases creates serious gaps in coverage, e.g. Jack Bruce of Cream (band) says in the movie Cream's Farewell Concert, "J.S. Bach was the governor of all bass writers" - and if you listen to their album Wheels of Fire you can hear that the vocal, lead guitar, bass guitar and drums all have their own tunes. -- Philcha (talk) 21:43, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Surely it's clear that Philcha isn't talking about a trivia section but rather something along the lines of a concise reception history. While this may not answer some questions--such as the ones pointed out in the Adagio for strings discussion--, it does answer others, namely what the music has meant subsequently and why. Beethoven is a classic example. If Wagner had never been born, for example, the disco song "A Fifth of Beethoven" might not even exist! The relevance of reception history is not a controversial issue in musicology. I propose that we allow the creation of an "influence" section like the one for Symphony_No._9_(Beethoven). Dunkelweizen (talk) 22:43, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Its not clear that's what he meant. This discussion started off with discussion of a guy playing a condensed version of the first movement with single notes on guitar against an invisible backing track. That's pretty trivial.

No one ever objected to an "influence" section, in fact there there already is one. But if you look at these sections, here and in the 9th, its all classical mentioned. All the movies, television shows, youtube links and video games have been removed. So, some fleshing out of the influence section here could be done with quotes from musicologists and perhaps more classical examples, but I don't think we should add pop culture stuff there. Those lists become unwieldy and even a bit of a joke.

Lastly, although I've taken the point on this particular discussion. This decision to remove all the pop culture references was not my call. This questions covers more than just this symphony. If you still strongly disagree, it would be best to open it up to the forum at the wikiproject, WP:CM. DavidRF (talk) 23:07, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Some contemporary reaction notes from BBC commentary...

In the commentary proceeding BBC Radio 3's "Beethoven Experience" broadcast Sunday 5 June 2005 of Gianandrea Noseda conducting the BBC Philharmonic, there are a number of interesting claims:

Well, it's just coming up to quarter to nine as we approach perhaps the best-known sequence of notes that will be heard this week on BBC Radio 3: the call to attention the marks the start of Beethoven's fifth symphony. When Berlioz's teacher heard the work for the first time, he was so disturbed that, when trying to put on his hat afterward, he momentarily couldn't find his head. Goethe thought it a threat to civilization as he knew it, and when, 8 years after the Viennese premiere, the work was first heard in London, the performance wasn't even completed; Salaman the concertmaster declared it "rubbish". A few years later he recanted, telling his orchestra that he now considered the fifth to be one of the greatest compositions he'd ever heard.

Very interesting notes for a "Reaction" section, but can these anecdotes be substantiated anywhere? 71.41.210.146 (talk) 17:52, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Attaca/attacca spelling

I've in the opening paragraph "attacca" is spelled as "attaca." It appears that someone has dressed the link so it goes to the correct Wiktionary page which makes me think it is an intentional misspelling? If so, enlighten me, I've never seen it spelled that way! Otherwise perhaps we should change it to its more traditional spelling? Jonathan.s.kt (talk) 03:57, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to change it as there hasn't been a response. If I'm stepping on an already-established rationale, my apologies in advance!

Derivative Works / Popular Culture references?

I was surprised to see no reference to A_Fifth_Of_Beethoven in this article - it can be helpful for those who have heard parts of a classical work in popular culture to make the connection between the original composer and where they heard the work.

PDQ_Bach also recorded a version of parts of this symphony done with a sports commentary. Splouge (talk)

There's a passing reference in the lede to the works use in disco music, but not much in the realm of specifics. The trouble with a pop culture sectin on this page is that once one is added it becomes a drive-by location for hundreds of references to movies, commercials, tv shows, video games, etc. For a piece of this level of ubiquity, hundreds is not an exaggeration. So, the section ended up getting removed completely. You can check the page history and talk history above.DavidRF (talk) 14:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I consider that "passing reference" more than adequate (which to bolster my argument I reproduce below). Specific examples would seem to me superfluous (as well as, as you suggest, overwhelming and random). Here is the passage as it currently stands: "The symphony, and the four-note opening motif in particular, are well known worldwide, with the motif appearing frequently in popular culture, from disco to rock and roll, to appearances in film and television." TheScotch (talk) 11:12, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

First symphony to be recorded?

Wasn't it the first symphony to be recorded (by Hans Richter, I think)? -- JackofOz (talk) 23:56, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking of Arthur Nikisch, but I see from Talk:Arthur Nikisch that his 1913 recording wasn't the first. However, it seems to suggest an earlier recording of the 5th, by an obscure orchestra and an unnamed conductor, was the first complete recording of a symphony. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:20, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

(responding a year late) This first recording that you refer to was done by Friedrich Kark in 1910 with an Odeon group. Many reliable sources still state that the Nikisch recording was the first, although this is not true. Sadly, I don't believe there are any recordings of Hans Richter conducting. ThemFromSpace 15:04, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

opening motif

The opening Motif alone deserves an article. I believe its the most commonly used tune in culture of all time. For Example The Simpsons have used it more times then any other tune. It's probably the most recognizable piece of music ever made. W66w66 (talk) 01:22, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

There is a good deal of discussion (above) of how to address uses of the motif (or longer excerpts of the symphony's first movement) in "popular culture." I came to the article today to try to verify a claim that the opening motif was used during World War II as a symbol of Allied victory, because it happens that the letter "V" in Morse code is dot-dot-dot-dash, resembling Beethoven's da-da-da-daaah. Comments on this page assert that the BBC used the motif in some of its broadcasts for that reason. But I haven't found this addressed in the article.

As for adaptations, the article A Fifth of Beethoven links here, but this article does not link back.

Several editors of this article have resisted broaching these topics because of the tendency for "popular culture" sections to acquire hundreds of lines of cruft. It gets tiresome having to continually remove obscure trivia, while running the risk of pyrrhic edit warring with narrow-minded fans of some death-metal band from Hoboken. So editors who delete all pop-culture material will usually find strong support.

To be clear, I am not characterizing you. I think your idea about writing up the opening motif has merit. I'm not sure what to call the article, though. Opening motif of Beethoven's Symphony No. 5?

I'm not sure the use of the opening motif in The Simpsons is really notable. Does a plot actually turn on the motif?

Probably there should be a section on the motif as a symbol of classical or serious music in general, or of high culture in general. Want to look for sources? — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 15:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Interpretation of opening motive

Re: "Some critics consider it crucial to convey the spirit of and-two-and one, as written, and consider the more common one-two-three-four to be misleading."

This is expressed awkwardly. I'm not even sure what it's supposed to mean. I think it's supposed to mean that some people want the first note dynamically unaccented, but even here we a big problem because that is not "as written". Beethoven understood well, as many inadequately schooled or mis-schooled persons today do not, that metric notation says nothing definite about where dynamic accents fall; it only suggests groupings. (See Walter Piston's Harmony and Paul Creston's Principles of Rhythm.) It's the rest before the first note that imparts the apparent accent on the first note. This passage is ostensibly cited, but the citation reads "Michael Steinberg, in conversation", which is far from adequate. In conversation with whom? When? Where? What did Steinberg actually say verbatim? TheScotch (talk) 11:40, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Motif v. motive

This article repeatedly refers to the "opening motif", but in serious music theory the German form motive is virtually always favored. The French form motif belongs to architecture or interior decorating, not to music. TheScotch (talk) 11:47, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Somebody had better tell the editors over at Motif (music), then. While they are at it, they should write a letter to William Drabkin, c/o The New Grove Dictionary, who gives "motif" as the preferred form, with "motive" as an alternative in square brackets. Finally, the German nation had better be informed they have been misspelling the word "Motiv" all these years. (The German and French spellings produce the identical pronunciation in the respective languages. Only the English are bloody-minded enough to alter the pronunciation to fit the German spelling, while at the same time changing the spelling to conform to French orthography.)—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:08, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Obviously, I meant serious English language music theory prefers motive (and I stand staunchly by that statement), and just as obviously by "German form" I meant as rendered in English. The English word motive, by the way, conforms to English orthography, which is perfectly logical. TheScotch (talk) 11:55, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Request quotation in Influences section

I've requested a quotation from Nottebohm, Gustav (1887) Zweite Beethoviana because I feel the nature of the influence needs stronger confirmation in this case, as the passage is a quite ordinary Mannheim rocket, which was something of a cliché in that period. Beethoven's 1st Piano sonata also begins with one. That's not to say that Mozart 40 didn't influence the opening of movt. 3 here, just that it needs good sourcing. --Stfg (talk) 13:11, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

information removed from Adaptations section

At 21:43 on 19 July 2013, Toccata quarta removed five items from the Adaptations section. The edit summary is "Rm probable copyvio and redlinks." I see no copyright violations — possibly Toccata was referring to a link to a YouTube video, but he removed a lot more than just that link — and I know of no policy requiring the removal of information that includes red links. Was this edit appropriate? Capedia (talk) 20:46, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Replacing images of excerpts with Score extension

I'm working on replacing all the images of excerpts with the Score extension, and I'm trying to make them match the old images as closely as possible. However, in the section of the article that highlights where the "fate" motif shows up in different movements, I've run into a problem: for some reason the scores won't compile if I try to change the colors of graphical objects. (For reference, here is the LilyPond documentation on the subject.) This code

<score>\relative c'' { \key c \minor \time 3/4 \override NoteHead #'color = #red g4 g g | g2. }</score>

yields this error:

As a workaround until we figure out what the problem is, I'm highlighting the passages containing the motive with ligature brackets. --Skiasaurus (skē’ ə sôr’ əs) 20:29, 6 October 2013 (UTC)