Talk:Sour (album)

Change cover image source

I suggest changing the current Instagram-sourced cover image to this CC BY 2.0 image from flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/x1brett/51240528416 Yannn11 19:41, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

"Stylized in all caps"

There is edit-warring going on regarding the inclusion/exclusion of this wording in the lede after the name of the album. A recent edit by Livelikemusic cited a discussion about this issue (from about two years ago), as well as MOS:MUSICCAPS. I'd be inclined to stick with the guidelines here and not include this wording, though I note that the album title is displayed all caps at the various music services which allow users to stream or buy the album (iTunes, Amazon, Napster, Spotify, etc.). This does go beyond the argument made about all caps being commonplace, as in how the typeset is done for albums, books, and so forth - that applies to the physical, tangible version of the item. My thinking is it was Rodrigo's (or her record label's) intent to have all caps in terms of representing the name of the album not just in the physical (cover art) sense, but altogether, if that makes any sense. Still, having the "stylized" wording at the beginning of the article is debatable, though judging by the cited discussion from a couple of years ago, applying to Wikipedia's album project as a whole, I'm not so sure my explanation above is justification for the wording at all. MPFitz1968 (talk) 01:36, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

"Deja Vu" interpolation

@19saaashi19: Just so you know, Rolling Stone calls the "Cruel Summer"/"Deja Vu" similarly an interpolation, saying "This is the second Sour track to feature a Swift-Antonoff interpolation and writing credit" (per [1]). Even if it is not technically an interpolation, we have a reliable source that calls it one. Thanks! D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 23:13, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

RFC on whether Olivia Rodrigo is a "singer-songwriter"

Olivia Rodrigo has an RFC over whether Rodrigo should be called a singer-songwriter in the article, instead of a singer and a songwriter. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. BawinV (talk) 14:38, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Release of "Traitor" as a single

This tweet from Billboard's chart director Gary Trust is what I've found so far to back the release of the song as Rodrigo's fourth single, when it goes for radio adds next week. I'm thinking a more solid source is needed. MPFitz1968 (talk) 20:07, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I kinda agree with you. PopLizard86427 (talk) 22:01, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

• The source is fine for now, as Gary is, as his last name says, trustworthy. But, we will need a radio listing on the 10th (this will most likely get promoted to CHR, which gets promoted on Tuesdays) to prove that it actually got sent. Songs get sent to radio at midnight, so midnight in the latest US time, which is 07:00 August 10 UTC, would be when we would need a listing by. After that, it's fair game to remove it. D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 23:47, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
  • @MPFitz1968 and PopLizard86427: It's past 07:00 August 10 UTC, which means the song most likely didn't end up being promoted, since the only two radio formats this song could be promoted to (CHR or Alternative) promote songs on Tuesdays at midnight, and it's after midnight on Tuesday. I will now remove the song as a single due to the fact that there is no radio listing when the only source that we have says the song would be promoted this week, similar to what happened with "Bet You Wanna". Thanks! D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 13:33, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
    • I opposed using Trust's tweets for radio impact date at POV (song) and I remain the same here. It just doesn't feel right to base the entire evidence for a single off of one tweet, especially when sources contradict each other as AllAccess is not reporting a date for "Traitor". And technically we can ignore the tweet for now, as unless he says it has been promoted, we don't know whether it ended up happening. And even then it's just not really great sourcing. For radio singles I think we should have higher standards like a specific date, not just "it's being promoted" or whatever. Heartfox (talk) 02:25, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
      • @Heartfox: I know this may sound a bit hypocritical, but I've actually found a surprising number of references that say that "Traitor" was promoted yesterday. Ah, the perks of logging into All Access. For example, [2] says "Her latest release, 'Traitor,' impacts Top 40 this week", and [3] lists "Traitor" as one of the new music releases, which means it pretty much got promoted, although it was never listed on "Future releases". D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 01:11, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
        • @Doggy54321: It is an odd situation as it was never listed on "Future Releases". I have an account as well and I looked at the links you provided and it seems that AllAccess is reporting it as a single as well. We do not have a specific date, but given CHR impact day is Tuesday, I think we can safely put it as a single for August 10, 2021? The key source is the https://www.allaccess.com/top40-mainstream/cool-new-music page as AllAccess would not provide a download if the promotion was cancelled like "Bet You Wanna". Heartfox (talk) 01:27, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
          • @Heartfox: Yes, it is an odd situation. I agree that the impact date would be August 10, since CHR impacts on Tuesdays and the source backs up the fact that "Traitor" got promoted to CHR. I will make the required edits (revert myself a bunch of times) now. Thanks! D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 11:09, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Brutal – single status

Please discuss here regarding the single status of "Brutal". Do not edit war in the article page. BawinV (talk) 06:15, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

A music video does not make a song a single. I could honestly just be a recording at this point, because I say the same thing in every single-status discussion, but it's true. Knowing this, if someone changes this page or the "Brutal" page to say "single", that falls under unsourced content. It would also be false. As well, removing "Traitor" as a single when it actually is one falls under removal of sourced content. D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 11:57, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Just adding onto what Doggy54321 has said. Although a few secondary sources refer to "Brutal" as a single (Nylon, uDiscoverMusic, Insider), per WP:SINGLE? the only really reliable sources that can back up a singles release are reputable music-orientated publications (most of the time it is Billboard or the Official Charts Company), the artists record label or the artist themselves. Also of course if the song has a radio add date or an independent release apart from the album, that can be seen as a single. As far as I'm aware, none of these sources have referred to "Brutal" as a single. Music videos are a form of streaming and promotion but only indicate a single release if one of the previous sources can back it up. At this point, "Brutal" is 100% not a single. LOVI33 17:53, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

@LOVI33: Thank you for adding on! Although, I do think the single rule of only BB and OCC defining what is a single is a bit incorrect, because there are multiple other "singles" that wouldn't be singles if they followed this rule (including GAs such as "You All Over Me"). I think a more widespread discussion at WT:SONGS on this topic is needed, but for now, let's just leave things the way they are. Thanks! D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 18:23, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

• @LOVI33 and BawinV: Billboard calls the song a single here. So, per WP:SINGLE?, the song should be listed as Sour's fifth single. Thanks! D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 21:25, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I agree! BawinV (talk) 22:45, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Brutal is not a single. I don't know why you only say that because in a video of Billboard say that. The song is not going to have promotion or it will be sent to the radio. The video was released only for promotion to Apple specifically for an ad in the Procreate app using iPads. I really don’t know why you inmediately think a song is a single because a web article or a video says. A LOT of songs are referenced as a single when the singer released a video for example Write on Me of Fifth Harmony (https://ew.com/article/2016/05/05/fifth-harmony-write-on-me/) that is only a promotional single because they released a video. So, you should really take a consideration about Brutal being a single. Is not only say like “oh! billboard just called brutal a single, so we should edit and put that the song is officially a single”; no, we need to have more information, if the song is going to have radio airplay or a date of impact, performances, etcetera. But for now i dont think brutal is a single and Olivia is only focus in traitor. Maxgoldman12334 (talk) 13:21, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

• @Maxgoldman12334: The reliable sources that can back up a single’s release are reputable music-orientated publications (most of the time it is Billboard or the Official Charts Company), the artists record label or the artist themselves. In that case, Billboard called Brutal a single, so it’s safe to say we can add it as a single. PopLizard86427 (talk) 13:28, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Please abstain from WP:FANCRUFT. Sources are the spinal cord of Wikipedia, which is an encyclopedic collection of what is reported by media outlets and printed literature. We have multiple sources callling "Brutal" a single, and therefore "Brutal" is a single. Moreover, Billboard is the ultimate source when it comes to the single status of a song. And nope, not all singles receive radio airplay, and not all singles are performed on television. Regards. BawinV (talk) 13:34, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

1. She never released any Single Cover for the song like what she did on the first three singles. 2. The song wasn't sent on the radios. 3. It was most likely partnership with apple music prolly a promo song with video. Maxgoldman12334 (talk) 13:38, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

(1) Not all singles have special single covers. (2) It doesn't have to be necessarily sent to radio for it to become a single. (3) Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. BawinV (talk) 13:54, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Not all singles need to have single covers to make them a single. Rodrigo's previous single "Traitor" didn't have a single cover, but it is still a valid single. Other examples of this include "Happier Than Ever" and "Exile". Thanks! D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 15:35, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Brutal wasn't released a single digitally nor was it sent to radio. The only reason it is being called one is because it has a music video, which isn't a form of single release anyway. If we're going only by sources, them calling it a "single" could simply make it a promotional single as the word "promotional" is very often omitted anyway, but just having a music video won't make it an official single. 2601:180:8200:63D0:142F:757B:ED82:8C64 (talk) 15:04, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Please don't use mutiple accounts to make your point. That constitutes sockpuppetry and is not tolerated on Wikipedia. Moving to the point, you're repeating the same thing you've already said. Therefore, I'm not going to repeat what I've already stated. Sources explicitly calls "Brutal" a single. and that's all that matters. End of discussion. BawinV (talk) 15:11, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia is, as Bawin said, built off of reliable sources. That is what we are: an encyclopedia. Being an encyclopedia, our job is to compile information that is already relayed in reliable sources and present it. Billboard has been around for forever, and is considered by many (even outside of Wikipedia) to be the be-all-end-all source. This means that they have a reputation as a very reliable source, and that, whatever they say, goes. This also means that, unless you work for Billboard themselves (which would be a conflict of interest, by the way), you're not really in a place to question or challenge what they say, especially not in an encyclopedia where our one job is to relay information already relayed in reliable sources. So, even if the song did not get a "normal" single rollout, it is still a single. I have seen you question single statuses in the past, so that is the reason for my in-depth comment. I hope this made sense. Thanks! D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 15:26, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Why is Brutal considered a single when Billboard calls it a single, but songs like Need To Know, by Doja Cat, are not? Billboard literally called that song a single, it had a music video and everything, but since it still hasn’t hit the radio, the editors refused to add it as a single, so you should keep the same energy with Brutal. Newanders22 (talk) 17:02, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

@Newanders22: That is a special case. Yes, Billboard called it a single, but then Doja Cat herself called it "not the next single", so we're a bit confused. I think we decided to wait until we can get a radio listing to prove the song is a single. If Rodrigo calls "Brutal" "not a single", then we can re-evaluate, but that is not the case here as of now. Thanks! D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 17:20, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Almost every time a music video is released for a song, editors cherry-pick sources which call the song a single. In one twitter video, Billboard called it a single. In an actual article about the music video, they don't. Insider isn't considered a generally reliable source per WP:RSP (and it doesn't call it a single—it's only cited for the music video release). Nylon is owned by Bustle and Bustle also has no consensus on its reliability at WP:RSP. There are just as much sources that omit the word "single" as ones that include it.

Here are reliable/semi-reliable sources on the topic:

• Billboard article - no mention of "single". I would consider an article more reliable than a twitter video.
• Rolling Stone - no
• Los Angeles Times - no
• NME - no, refers to it as a "song" and "track"
• MTV - no
• Vogue - no

• Capital FM - yes, but refers to it as the fourth single...
• IHeartRadio - yes
• uDiscoverMusic - yes
• Billboard Twitter video - yes

(1) The ones that do not call it a single outnumber the ones that do. (2) If it was an actual single, that would be an odd fact for these established, reputable sources to omit. uDiscover Music is owned by her record label's owner, but I doubt how seriously that should be taken unless Geffen/Interscope actually issues a press release calling it a single. (3) There is no separate digital download/streaming, no physical release, nor a radio impact date. All of this that doesn't matter because Billboard called it a single in one Twitter video and a couple other outlets did? I don't get it. Heartfox (talk) 00:00, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Unlike the case of Need to Know (Doja Cat song), we don't have any sources stating "Brutal is not a single". You cannot equate the lack of mention of the song's single status in a source to it not being a single. That's misinterpretation. We have many sources calling Brutal a single, and zero sources that say it is not a single. BawinV (talk) 19:09, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree. The few sources calling it a single are only saying that because it has a music video, and they are likely unaware of any other forms of release for the song. 2601:180:8200:63D0:142F:757B:ED82:8C64 (talk) 01:39, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the point of Heartfox and he show proof! So you need to reconsider to put Brutal as a single only because Billboard say that in a video. Maxgoldman12334 (talk) 18:14, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

With several recent changes to the article, adding or removing the status of "Brutal" as a single, I want to be clear on the WP:STATUSQUO for the article while this is being discussed. I'm going to assume the status as it not being listed as a single, based on the state of the article at the time this talk page discussion commenced. [4] MPFitz1968 (talk) 16:37, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

"Brutal" now has a September 3 radio impact day in Italy per Universal Music, so I would say it's a single. Heartfox (talk) 23:02, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

@Heartfox: Agreed. D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 02:41, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

I've been seeing a couple of edits now changing the release date of the single to January 11, 2022, which is supposedly when it gets serviced to CHR in the US. This needs to be sourced until the date in question, per WP:CRYSTAL. By the way, would that change the release date in the article, since it got released in Italy first back in September? MPFitz1968 (talk) 20:29, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

"Happier" single?

According to Pure Charts, "Happier" is the sixth single of the album. However they don't provide any radio-related information as they usually do. What are we going to do with this? infsai (talkie? UwU) 08:04, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

We shall wait till Billboard or OCC confirms this. ℛonherry☘ 12:28, 18 February 2022 (UTC)