Talk:Ormon Khan

Ormon Khan was nominated as a History good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (January 27, 2023, reviewed version). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

Biography: Military / Politics and Government / Royalty and Nobility

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Kyrgyzstan Mid‑importance

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Military history: Asian / Russian & Soviet / Early Muslim C‑class

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Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

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Central Asia Mid‑importance

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Letters from or about Ormon Khan[edit]

From Ormon to General Nikolai Frantsevich Vishnevsky [ru] [1]
From General Gasford to Senator Lev Grigoryevich Senyavin [ru] [2]

Curbon7 (talk) 23:58, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OR Map[edit]

This map doesn't provide any sources, so I assume it's WP:OR? A455bcd9 (talk) 15:56, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A455bcd9, I've reverted it back to the original map and tagged it for deletion on Commons. Curbon7 (talk) 14:05, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! A455bcd9 (talk) 15:37, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Actually this map doesn't provide sources either @Curbon7. A455bcd9 (talk) 15:39, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alybek Batyr[edit]

(about note-1) Alybek Batyr and Alymbek Datka are different people who lived at the same time [3]. Foggy kub (talk) 10:46, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

Unsuccessful. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:19, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ormon Khan/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: TrangaBellam (talk · contribs) 10:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Initial impression[edit]

The quality of prose is decent. ~~Reliable sources have been used.~~ I do not spot any wild inaccuracies and/or issues of POV. It will take a few days for me to go through the article slowly; I am acquianted with C. Asian history (see u/p) and might propose usage of better sources etc. ~~But, on the overall, I expect to pass this article without much fuss~~. TrangaBellam (talk) 10:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
TrangaBellam, Any progress on the review? Curbon7 (talk) 17:17, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Readying my draft response; ordered for a couple of books, that led to the delay. Will post my first comments tomorrow! TrangaBellam (talk) 17:34, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by a455bcd9[edit]

File:Kyrgyz Khanate map.jpg is unsourced and in Russian: probably better to remove it. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 11:06, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Thanks for pointing that out! Curbon7 (talk) 23:21, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:58, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Issues[edit]

Minor qualms[edit]

Please remove the red-links from the lead.

Misc.[edit]

Ormon's reign saw a centralization of the Kyrgyz tribes needs to be reframed.
However, Ormon's father, Niyazbek, is said to have made "little impression on Sarybagysh memory" besides being the father of Ormon - Please mention the reason, speculated by Prior in note 15.

Sources[edit]

Este.kg is essentially an one-man effort at bringing digital tourism to Kz which is laudable but not reliable. SPS applies.

Kyshtobaev's Linkedin - Cannot be used.

Village councils are unreliable sources about historical figures. SPS applies.

Now, I recall hazily about coming across a book of literary criticism by an eponymous author who was academically qualified but too embedded within the state (diplomat - ?) to be of any value. Is he our author? In that case, I have to dig deeper.

Proza.ru is a portal [that] provides authors with the opportunity to freely publish their literary works on the Internet on the basis of a user agreement. Glorified blog; there is no peer-review. SPS applies.

No author-bio - Cannot be used.

Students.com.kg is a collection of student essays, which can be submitted via registration. There is no peer-review. SPS applies.

I suspect "Student1" is not an expert.

Hidden. Curbon7 (talk) 20:43, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Turdalieva (2016) is, what I call, state-sponsored histories.

The very first page features, The textbook is prepared on the basis of textbooks approved by the Ministry of Education and Science of the Kyrgyz Republic. The next page, The textbook is written and prepared in accordance with the requirements of state policy and standards of teaching the subject in educational institutions of Kyrgyzstan. The book ends with, The Kyrgyz Republic, having gained independence, gave an opportunity to its citizens, regardless of ethnicity, to immigrate to any country and obtain citizenship. Kyrgyzstan, however, is the support and hope for its sons and daughters living in all parts of the world. The Constitution of the Kyrgyz Republic contains a provision that the state consistently defends the interests of its citizens, even those overseas.
It has been cited about a couple of times since publication (~6 years), and was intended as a high-school text. Quite true to the purpose, there is a bibliography but no practice of in-text citation.

Please replace the source.

Sourcing[edit]

At 25, around the year 1816, Ormon had risen to become the chief of the Sarybagysh tribe. - Poor citation practices, and poor choice of using wikivoice. There is a reason why Soltonoev is explicitly attributed in the source; his dates are often wrong. See Prior; p. 106 for an example.

Fixed. Curbon7 (talk) 20:42, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Concluding Comments[edit]

I am afraid that this is a quick-fail (Criteria 2b). However, I will wait for comments from the nominator. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:55, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, the Students.com.kg was NOT meant to make it into the final form of this article; I was only utilizing it while in draftspace as a substitute for a different source which included the same material but was much more inaccessible due to language, and I forgot to replace it when I was finished. I think there are arguments to be made why the Turdalieva book isn't as bad as it seems, but this is indeed irrelevant due to the fundamental issues with the Este.kg and the Proza.ru sources (which, again just for the record, seemed legitimate at first glace; the language barrier played a role with those), which make up a core chunk of the article. While this content likely exists somewhere, it is more than likely in Russian or Kyrgyz language books, such as those listed in the Further reading section, which as a non-speaker are almost entirely inaccessible. Concur with qf, didn't realize there were such fundamental issues with those two sources. Regardless, thanks for the review

Curbon7 (talk) 20:41, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, Curbon7! TrangaBellam (talk) 06:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.