Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity/Archive 6

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

←

Archive 4

→

Continuation of part of an RfC discussion on main Talk page

The following boxed discussion is a continuation of a discussion between Michael Cambridge and me in a closed RfC [1] at the main Talk page. I moved it here from the other page, per the result of the RfC. Additional comments can be made after my signature that follows the box.

Bob K31416, since the RFC on Nikola Tesla's nationality/ethnicity and country of birth has been closed I will respond to you here about reliable sources. In the above discussion about Nikola Tesla's citizenship I provided a reliable source specifically about Nikola Tesla which was a transcript of his high school grades on which it states (in Croatian) that his homeland is Croatia. The first few sources used in the Nikola Tesla Wikipedia article I assume are considered reliable and they all state that Nikola Tesla was born in Croatia. Let's not forget Nikola Tesla's own statement- "I was born in Croatia", written in his Tribute to King Alexander, October 19, 1934. So in the face of all this evidence there are still some editors who don't believe that Nikola Tesla was born and raised in Croatia, which makes me question their intelligence and motives. I will refrain from talking too much here because I may get blocked like the editor Asdisis. I sense panic building among some of the editors here, it seems that they want to suppress information about any involvement Nikola Tesla may have had with Croatia, which is utterly despicable behaviour on their part. It is as clear as day that Nikola Tesla was born and raised in Croatia. Clear as day.Michael Cambridge 07:22, 16 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Cambridge (talk • contribs)
I suggest you move your message to the other page, delete this message of mine, and leave a link on my Talk page so I can find your message. --Bob K31416 (talk) 07:42, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Mr. Cambridge questions "intelligence and motives"?... enough of this. I will report him later today if anyone else in the meantime desnt. FkpCascais (talk) 13:16, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

--Bob K31416 (talk) 14:50, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Michael Cambridge, Could you give the links to the reliable sources you're referring to? --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:12, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I take it that only reliable sources are used in the Nikola Tesla article. Here are links to some sources cited at the beginning of the article that mention Croatia as Nikola Tesla's place of birth/homeland.-

1.)http://www.history.com/topics/inventions/nikola-tesla

2.)http://www.rferl.org/content/tesla-remains-sparking-devil-worship-in-belgrade/27062700.html

3.)http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5167054.stm

4.)https://books.google.ca/books?id=PW06qF-dj2IC&printsec=frontcover&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

On the next link you will find Nikola Tesla's high school grades. It is all written in Croatian but if you scroll down the page a little you will see a table that explains Tesla's performance at the school. Personal details are also included. On it is written the word "Domovina" which when translated means homeland, below that is written "Hrvatska" which means Croatia.

5.)http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/tesla.html

The next link shows an article from Time magazine written in 1934 that confirms the fact that Nikola Tesla was born in Croatia.

6.)http://www.teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/articles/teslas-ray

The next link shows Nikola Tesla's Tribute to King Alexander written in the New York Times, October 19,1934. Here Nikola Tesla states in his own words- "I was born in Croatia." When you open the link, click on the image to enlarge.

7.)http://www.teslasociety.com/kingalexander.gif

Given that these reliable sources I have laid out here confirm the fact that Nikola Tesla's country of birth/homeland was Croatia I propose that the wording in the Nikola Tesla article be changed to- "Nikola Tesla (Serbian Cyrillic: Никола Тесла; 10 July 1856 – 7 January 1943) was a Croatian-born Serbian American inventor, electrical engineer, mechanical engineer, physicist, and futurist best known for his contributions to the design of the modern alternating current (AC) electricity supply system." Thank you.Michael Cambridge 03:13, 17 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Cambridge (talk • contribs)

What is interesting is the croatianhistory.net source and the high-school papers. All the original German say "Tesla Nikola, Smiljan, im der Militargrentze, Griech-Orient." (Translated: Tesla Nikola, Military Frontier, Griech-Oriental faith). The word Militargrentze (Military Frontier) is in all of them. There is only one paper in Croatian from unknown year that says "Rodno mjesto: Smiljan u Vojnoj krajini" (translated, Birthplace: Smiljan in Military Frontier) and in the next box it says "Domovina: Hrvatska" (translated, Homeland: Croatia) but even that one goes against you cause even that one says he was born in Military frontier and not Croatia.

The rest of the sources basically confirm our article, most start by saying Serbian-American scientist. FkpCascais (talk) 04:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

In the following, I've given quotes from the above sources, except for number 5.

(1) "Nikola Tesla was born in 1856 in Smiljan, Croatia, then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire."

(2) "An ethnic Serb born in Croatia, Tesla was a pioneer in harnessing electrical, radio, and X-ray technologies."

(3) "The scientist once famously stated that he was equally proud of his Serb origin and Croatian homeland."

(4) page 17 – "The Tesla's lived in the small mountain village of Smiljian in Austrian Croatia. The family had moved there just a year or so before Nikola was born July 10, 1856."

(5) This seems to be a website published by Darko Zubrinic,[2] i.e. a self published source, and thus not a reliable source for the purposes of Wikipedia, according to WP:NOTRELIABLE.

(6) "That was not long after he learned to talk, in the Croatian hamlet of Smiljan where he was born."

(7) "I was born in Croatia."

--Bob K31416 (talk) 05:54, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

FkpCascais, it is a well known fact that the Military Frontier was mostly carved out of Croatian territory, you and I both know that.

Bob K31416, thank you for going through the sources and weeding out the unreliable source. All unreliable sources need to be removed from the article, after all, we want Wikipedia to be a reliable source for information. Certain editors here will scream from the rooftops that Croatia didn't exist when Nikola Tesla was born but here we have several reliable sources that specifically state Croatia as Nikola Tesla's country of birth/homeland, the Wikipedia article on Nikola Tesla needs to reflect this information. How could Nikola Tesla, one of the greatest geniuses of all time be so wrong about the country of his birth? Bob K31416, I would like to know what your thoughts are on some of the reliable sources I have presented and on my proposed change to the wording in the article. Do I have a case here?Michael Cambridge 08:40, 17 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Cambridge (talk • contribs)

I think that comments like "Certain editors here will scream from the rooftops..." are disruptive and might lead to adverse consequences for you and any editor that responds in kind.

From what I've seen, the situation regarding Croatia is complex and I don't think we should try to figure it out but rather use what reliable sources say about Tesla. So far in the article we have Tesla's citizenship as Austrian and his ethnicity as Serbian, both supported by reliable sources. I think that adding to these statements your proposed statement seems reasonable, according to reliable sources about Tesla. However, I would like to see what others think about this issue, using reliable sources about Tesla for their arguments. --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:21, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

OK, thanks for taking the time to go through the references and thanks for taking an interest in this matter.Michael Cambridge 15:23, 17 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Cambridge (talk • contribs)

Comment from blocked user Asdisis, confirmed and blocked IP. :::I agree that the sources stated in the article are reliable. The article itself was derived from those sources. I also agree with the wording of Austrian citizenship and Serbian ethnicity. We should establish a consensus based upon reliable sources or this discussions will pop up every now and then. I went trough sources listed in the article and I agree Nikola Tesla was born in Croatia. Tesla's diploma and his own statement are very valuable primary sources and the secondary sources also speak of Croatia, so I do not think there is any reason to hold Croatia from the article. Lastly every source that speak's of Tesla says that he felt he equally belongs to Croatia and Serbia, thus he was a supporter of Yugoslav idea. During Second World War he refused to take part in Croatian-Serbian disputes and took no sides because he felt he belonged to both equally, which is evident from his tribute to King Alexander. Also his statement that he is proud of his Croatian homeland and his Serbian ethnicity is very well known and I've seen a lot of secondary sources speak of it. I'm not sure why that isn't included in the article as well. I hope this will be resolved according to the reliable sources so we can stop the pointless discussions. I haven't seen anyone dispute Tesla's ethnicity because it is founded in reliable sources stated in the article. I hope this gets resolved as well. Also I've seen a lot of original research regarding Military Frontier and Croatia, but that research is not only unfounded in sources but also it constitutes synthesis much like the previous discussion about nationality which was resolved only when a source that is speaking of Tesla was found.

I would also like to reflect on the question of Military Frontier and Croatia. Much was said on the subject but no sources were provided, none at all (apart from the sources the user Asidis that got banned had posted on his talk page). I do not think that the debate about Military Frontier being a part of Croatia or a separate unit is of much help. Even if reliable sources are found, they would be pretty much disregarded on the grounds of WP:SYNTHESIS, in the manner sources in the last were disregarded. We should concentrate on reliable sources that speak of Tesla, as everyone (except one user) agreed in the previous discussion. The general discussion about Military frontier would only get us here: [3]. No one benefits from such discussions full of personal opinions. Let's remember that this article is known for nationalistic tensions so the last thing we need is someone's opinion not founded by any source.

I come from Croatia and I have lived in Serbia so I've heard too much opinions about Tesla being Croatian or Serbian. I personally value the most Tesla's own opinion. He regarded himself as Yugoslav. He had no part in Croatian-Serbian disputes that were ongoing during his lifetime as well. He regarded himself as a Yugoslav because he thought Croatians and Serbians are the same nation. He was born in Croatia, he is Serbian, but in my opinion he is ,as he regarded himself, a Yugoslav. He belongs to both and he should be the one connecting this two nations and not separating them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.136.224.246 (talk) 17:12, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Let me say that Croatia is absolutely not left out from the article, the article clearly says Tesla was born in a place that nowadays is Croatia. Unfortunatelly, at time Tesla was born, Smiljan was not part of Croatia but of the Military Frontier, so we should not falsify history just because some sources are ambiguous. Also, the phrase taken from the Tribute to King Alexander is clearly being amplified to its greatest extend in Croatia and politically being used to bring Tesla closer to Croatia, not to mention that whoever reads the entire tribute can clearly see how he actually felt regarding himself and the proud he had in Serbian nation. PS: Do I need to bring back here all the sources that say Tesla was born in the Military Frontier and not Croatia? FkpCascais (talk) 20:41, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
The entire point is that there is a clear desire b some editors to put the word Croatia in the lead by all means and equalize it with Serbia, because otherwise there is no reason whatsoever for all this fuzz as the article clearly says Tesla was born in what is nowadays Croatia, is that truth? However this editors want Croatia on top. FkpCascais (talk) 21:54, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Re "Do I need to bring back here all the sources that say Tesla was born in the Military Frontier and not Croatia?" – I suggest that you bring an appropriate number of reliable sources that are about Tesla to counter the above six reliable sources that are about Tesla. --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:02, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

--Bob K31416 have you read theTalk:Nikola_Tesla/Nationality_and_ethnicity#RfC:_Should_Tesla.27s_birthplace_be_changed.3F? FkpCascais (talk) 22:29, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

They are there. But here we go again:

"He was born to a Serbian family in Smiljan near Gospić, Lika, (the Military Frontier of Austria-Hungary, now in Croatia)" at teslauniverse.com
"Nikola Tesla's birthplace house and his Serbian Orthodox Church in Smiljan, Lika, "Military Frontier" of Austro-Hungarian Border against Turkish invasion..." at teslasociety.com
"As Serbs living in the Austrian Military Frontier, his grandparents on both..." at "Tesla: Inventor of the Electrical Age", Page 32, by W. Bernard Carlson.
"During his first year he had a fellowship from the Military Frontier Authority and hence had no financial..." at "Tesla: Man Out of Time", Page 39, by Margaret Cheney.
"Tesla was a scientific genius born 1856 of Serbian parents in the village of Smiljan, in what was then the Military Frontier." at teslaplay.com

I will bring more. FkpCascais (talk) 22:32, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment from blocked user Asdisis, confirmed and blocked IP. ::I've been living in Croatia for quite some time now, and I follow the Croatian media, as well as Serbian media. I can't remember that I had ever seen Tesla's tribute to King Alexander mentioned neither in Croatian nor Serbian media or anywhere. Thus, it is puzzling you say it is being used to its greatest extent. Could you provide some links to media articles or something? Anyways, I think it is not important, since Wikipedia used secondary sources, however primary sources are not to be disregarded when secondary sources back them up. In fact combining primary and secondary sources produces very strong case. If you go to the literature you will see that some biographies state that Tesla was born in Montenegro, Serbia...etc which is obviously false. I thank you for your effort in providing a source that closed the previous debate, and I think this is a good approach. I wouldn't want you to get me wrong but I do think the Military Frontier-Croatia is a hard question to answer, and that your claim is quite simplifying the real situation. I haven't really seen any source that would support it. I referenced a debate that dealt extensively with it, and no sources were provided to back up anyone's opinion. I've seen you state that Military Frontier (CMF) is something separate from Kingdom of Croatia, but I've also seen the documents user Michael Cambridge posted. Tesla's diploma says homeland-Croatia, and that is a valuable primary source. We can agree upon that, yes? I again went trough the discussion about Tesla's birthplace and I found only one source presented on the subject. I'm pasting a section from that discussion: Vasilije Krestić, a Serbian historian says that Military frontier in administratively had not belonged to Croatia nor Austria nor Hungary, but was a special area under the direct control of the emperor and supreme military authorities in Vienna. However, in formal and legal terms Military frontier belonged to Croatia. (I do apologize if I missed some sources, but the discussion is quite extensive, I think this is the only one). I also came across this source on the blocked user's talk page:[4]. I won't go into assessing the credibility of those sources, but the fact stands. Those are the only sources that I saw up to now. Don't get me wrong I'm not making any claims about the subject, I wouldn't want to go into this hard debate. My point is quite reasonable, and I think you will agree. The question about Military Frontier and Croatia is quite complicated and we do not know the answer to it. If we knew the answer, even that wouldn't help us much since I do not think the sources will speak of Tesla. Let's agree that we do not know how to characterize Military Frontier, and that that question is not important for the debate about Tesla's birthplace. We are not here to resolve the question but to state what the sources tell. I think that's a proposal you will accept, since you yourself were against such approach in the last debate. Let's show how Croatians and Serbians can have an open minded debate. Let's agree that the approach user Bob K31416 purposed is the best way to go. I really just came to give my opinion since I thought it would be helpful, I wouldn't want to go into debate, especially not into debate about Military Frontier and Croatia. I agree with the approach Bob K31416 suggested. That is much simpler as we can see the previous debates yielded no conclusions. Once the sources back up the formulation then this will be resolved like the claim that Tesla is Serbian American scientist. That was much debated before and now when the sources support the present formulation continuous debates had stopped. Isn't that the best approach since now anyone who wishes to change the formulation is faced with reliable sources? I hope you will agree. All the best to you, from Croatia. Tesla really is a person that would be astonished that Croatians and/or Serbians are "fighting" for him, when he had always stated he equally belongs to both since the both are the same nation, Yugoslavs.

Edit: I see something was posted while I was writing this comment. I just want to state that we do not know if sources that claim Military Frontier and the one's claiming Croatia are in conflict. If Military Frontier(CMF) is a part of Croatia (Kingdom of Croatia) then the sources are not in conflict. Maybe it would be best to see if any sources mention both Military Frontier and Croatia and in which context. That way we wouldn't have to deal with the hard debate I mentioned above. If some sources speak about Military Frontier and explicitly state that it isn't Croatia or if some say Military Frontier, Croatia then we would have the answer, wouldn't we? 141.136.243.205 (talk) 22:41, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

teslasociety.com actually explains everything at bottom of this page - "At the time of Tesla's birth in 1856, Tesla's birthplace in Smiljan, Lika was a part of the Austro-Hungarian "Military Frontier", as a defense border area against Turkish invasions which tried to invade Western Europe. It was built at by the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy at the south-east border of the empire which extended thousand of miles from the Adriatic Coast and Lika Region to Voyvodina - the northern part of Serbia. The "Military Frontier" was inhabited mostly by Serbian populations, Serbs defended the Christian Europe against the Ottoman Turks. For their bravery in wars against the Turks, the Serbs were given land by the Austrian Empress. The "Military Frontier" was abolished in 1881."
My Inventions Nikola Tesla's Autobiography
The Past in Exile by Birgit Bock-Luna, page 46. - See at bottom interesting observation regarding Croatian historians and Tesla. (I will bring more).

PS: No sir IP 141.136.243.205 , Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia and Military Frontier are not the same despite circles in Croatia claiming today it was, but unfortunately for you, it wasn't, Croatia was one subdivision within Austrian empire, and the Military Frontier another. FkpCascais (talk) 22:44, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

PS2: Bob K31416 if most veteran editors participated in that discussion and most reliable sources were analised and consensus was reached, why are you giving wings now to this new discussion when hardly any new evidence was brought and the same old (wrong) arguments are being brought over and over? This is all being nationalistic POV-pushing and disruption, you seem to be unaware of. A direct question for you: are you also challenging the consensus reached in that exhaustive discussion? Because if you are not, there is really no need to go trough this same old argumentations again, this is painfull and repetitive. FkpCascais (talk) 22:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment from blocked user Asdisis, confirmed and blocked IP.

Oh, you had replied really fast, so I will just answer briefly. I'm not supporting any stand regarding Croatia and Military Frontier. I'm just saying it's a hard question. I reposted some of the sources above to show the only sources I found here in all discussions regarding that subject. Also, one source is a Serbian historian, a member of [[5]]. ;) As I said I'm just claiming it is a hard question. There are more aspects to this single evaluation described by the word belonging- "administrative", "legislative", "formal"...etc. Let us not get into it. I wouldn't want to assess other peoples' motives. Wikipedia is a tertiary source so it should summarize primary and secondary sources. This is the only thing I'm saying. All the best to you, and than you for the provided sources. I will take that as a confirmative answer to my plea to agree upon the approach. Also I'm a Serb from Croatia and for me Tesla is an idol. I was always living my life according to his statement that he was proud of his Croatian homeland and his Serbian origin so that is why I value Tesla's own statement's the most, although that is against Wikipedia's policy, but I don't live my life according to Wikipedia's policy. ;) If Tesla said so, that is enough for me personally, and Tesla had always stayed neutral of Croatian-Serbian disputes and respected both equally, so that is what I had been doing. If a great mind like Tesla saw that is the right thing to do, then surly Croatians and Serbians can agree upon that. All the best to you FkpCascais, from Zagreb, Croatia. Pomaže Bog. 141.136.243.205 (talk) 23:14, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

It is not a hard call. Tesla was born in the Austrian empire in a subdivision named Military Frontier which was a different subdivision from the another Austrian subdivision which was the Croatia-Slavonia. Tesla even got the scholarship in Graz from the Military Frontier (and not Croatia-Slavonia). You also know there are aspects regarding Tesla relation to Serbs and Serbia which are missing in the article and I am not pushing them in, so lets just leave the article balanced as it is now. And there is absolutely no use in claiming Military Frontier was part of Croatia, thus, Tesla was born in Croatia, cause that is simply not truth. MrX has brought duzens of more sources and we analised all of them, the current state of the article is the result of what most reliable sources say about Tesla. The most we can say is that he is a Serbian-American inventor, born in Smiljan, Military Frontier, Austrian empire (now Croatia). This is what the vast majority of reliable sources support. FkpCascais (talk) 23:40, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

And if you are what you claim to be, you certainly know what Tesla said in the Tribute to King Alexander, the Serbian/Yugoslav king so hated by Croats and even killed by Croatian-IMRO organization during his visit in Marseille, France. So we really cant equal Serbia-Croatia with Tesla just based on the fact that he was born in a place that later became part of Croatia and a phrase he wrote there which is taken out of context (he also wrote many thins about Serbia and Serbs just see some older discussions). I saw the Croatian wiki version of Tesla article and it is shamefull, and that should not happened here. There were constant attempts based on same arguments but it really comes up the time when one should drop it. Regards from Lisbon, Portugal. FkpCascais (talk) 23:48, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

But, since we don't believe in editor words, but only in reliable sources, here is what I am talking about regarding the so repeated phrase ("equaly proud of Serban origins and Croatian homeland") taken from the Tribute to King Alexander, please see: Tela:Man Out of Time by Margaret Cheney, page 303. I think it is quite clear. FkpCascais (talk) 00:02, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Of the quotes/sources that you gave, I found two useful. The others had various problems. The two useful ones were:

"At the time of Tesla's birth in 1856, Tesla's birthplace in Smiljan, Lika was a part of the Austro-Hungarian "Military Frontier", as a defense border area against Turkish invasions which tried to invade Western Europe."[6]

"47. Interestingly, because Tesla originated in the Croatian Krajina, or military frontier, Croat historians were busy trying to reassert the Croationness of the physician, albeit with little success, since it was widely accepted that Tesla's parents were both Serbs."[7]

This seems enough for me. I think the difference in what the reliable sources say depends on how precise they were. I think the two you gave were more precise on the issue than the other six. Also, there's the RfC result. So I don't support the addition, although I have to admit that I'm not comfortable with this decision because the topic is complex and unclear. --Bob K31416 (talk) 05:25, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Exactly, don't take me wrong please, but at the discussion above we really went trough a big lot of reliable sources, and there are some that simplify it and say Croatia, but the ones that really deal with the issue of his birth with more detail don't. Also, there is a vast majority that he was born in the Military Frontier (and no one challenges Smiljan was in the Military Frontier cause maps from the time are clear), and as much as modern Croatian historians try to make sound like "Oh, the Military Frontier was kind of Croatia" well, it wasn't, and this entire debate ends up really being about that. We even say in our article here that Tesla studied in the highschool in Karlovac, Croatia, but from the papers seen at that Croatian website, we see all original papers talk about the Militargrentze (Military Frontier) so seems that neither Karlovac was part of Croatia at the time but of Military Frontier. Then we have the information that he obtained scholarship in Graz from the Military Frontier. So, with all we know, it ends up really being impossible to say Tesla was born in Croatia and go along the current Croatian revisionism that ignores Military Frontier and pretends it was all Croatia. So Cambridge can bring 5-6-7 sources, it want really change anything. And their other agument is that Tesla said he was born in Croatia, but Margaret Cheney explained in her book quite well the context in which he said that, the Tribute to King Alexander, and the entire context of the tribute is quite negative for Croatia, so it is useless anyway, as being primary source, and because they ignore the rest Tesla wrote there. Regards, FkpCascais (talk) 14:55, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment from blocked user Asdisis, confirmed and blocked IP.

Tribute To King Alexander is negative to Croatia? I don't agree, Tesla had never took sides in Croatian-Serbian disputes. You can see that what he said. I'm pasting a section: The fact is that all Yugoslavs-Serbians, Slavonians, Bosnians, Herzegovinians, Dalmations, Montenagrins, Croatians ans Slovenes - are of the same race, speak the same language and have common national ideals and traditions (end of section). The text says that Yugoslavia is misrepresented in USA and that and that Yugoslav people are all one and the same nation. I'm surprised you think Tesla had wrote something against any of Yugoslav nations. He had never took part in politics and in this letter he speaks how King Alexander will be in memory of his people. I've read much about Tesla and every literature says he took no part in Croatian-Serbian disputes and had not supported each side. He respected both. Could you paste the section that is negative towards Croatia? I've once again read it and I do not see any part that is negative to any Yugoslav nation. Here is the link [8].141.136.243.205 (talk) 18:25, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I will just add a seventh reliable source to confirm that Nikola Tesla was born in Croatia. It is the same source FkpCascais used, that being the biography, Tesla-Man out of Time by Margaret Cheney. Chapter 2 page 28 - "Nikola Tesla was born at precisely midnight between July 9 and 10 1856, in the village of Smiljan, province of Lika , Croatia, between Yugoslavia's Velebit mountains and the eastern shore of the Adriatic sea." There are reliable sources that state that Nikola Tesla was born in the Military Frontier and there are reliable sources that state that Nikola Tesla was born in Croatia. Croatia ought to be given the benefit of the doubt especially since Nikola Tesla said "I was born in Croatia." Here is the link to the reliable source Tesla-Man out of Time.

https://books.google.com.au/books/reader?id=HIuK7iLO9zgC&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&source=gbs_atb&pg=GBS.PA25 I hope this helps.Michael Cambridge 12:04, 18 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Cambridge (talk • contribs)

Thanks. I thought the following excerpt from the author Cheney was especially helpful.

"Within Croatia the Serbian Teslas were part of a racial and religious minority. The province then belonged to the Austro-Hungarian Empire of the Hapsburgs to whose heavy-handed rule the people adapted as best they could."

Croatia appears to have been a geographical entity of some kind, but not a sovereign state as it is today. It seems that when referring to Croatia at the time of Tesla's birth, one could either include the Croatian Military Frontier or not, depending on how one would interpret what was meant by "Croatia". This seemed to vary between the reliable sources about Tesla. Wikipedia consensus seems to be against having Croatia as his birthplace in the main text. A way to approach this situation is to have a footnote in the article that mentions that reliable sources have differed in describing the region of Tesla's birth as being Croatia or the Military Frontier, and give the best reliable source for each one as examples. Maybe they would be Cheney for Croatia and teslasociety.com for Military Frontier.

I would add that editors should note the following from Wikipedia policy WP:UNDUE.

"Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources."

--Bob K31416 (talk) 16:00, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually, there was Croatia-Slavonia which was not an independent nation but subdivision of the Austrian empire. But Smiljan, where Tesla was born, at time of his birth was not part of Croatia-Slavonia, but was part of another Austrian province, the Military Frontier. Notece that this are all just parts of Austrian empire. However, exactly because there was a province named Croatia, and Smiljan was not part of it when Tesla was born, that it would be wrong to say Tesla was born in Croatia, see the point? PS: The main subdvision is the Military Frontier, which itself was divided in sections, and the Croatian Military Frontier (Banska Krajina) was just a section of it, but it was not Croatian but Austrian, directly ruled from Vienna, and Croatian parliament at time made many efforts asking central government of Vienna to put it under Croatian control, but Austrians denied it all the way until 1881. FkpCascais (talk) 16:17, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I will try to make a simple resume. Austrian empire is the country Tesla was born, no one disputes that, not even Cambridge. However, Austrian empire was so big that it was internaly divided into several smaller kingdoms and provinces (Croatia being one of them, Military Fronter another). Austria was fighting a centuries long war with Ottoman empire, and in their borderland, in order to more effectively combat the Ottomans, created a new province named Military Frontier which was under the direct rule of the Austrian Emperor (the other provinces had some sort of local autonomy, like the states within United States nowadays). The Military Frontier was formed from parts of other Austrian provinces, Croatia, Slavonia, Voivodina and Banat. In order to more effectively command the troops, Austrians divided the Military Frontier into sections (Croatian, Slavonian, etc.), however, the section Croatian Military Frontier was Croatian just by name, because it was totally ruled by Austrians directly, so that is what is misleading here, because Croatian historians are trying to present it as if Croatian Military Frontier (some even go as far as thinking the entire Military Frontier) was part of Croatia-Slavonia. But it wasn't, as we can see, they even provided scholarships separately from the Croatian province scholarships. The Military Frontier was just another province within Austrian Empire, and Croatia-Slavonia was another one. So, the entire issue is that Tesla was born in an Austrian province of Military Frontier and not Croatia-Slavonia. However, by time Tesla was living in the United States, the borders of the region drastically changes, and Smiljan by then was part of the Croatian Banovina within the Kingdom of Yugoslavia ruled by Alexander I of Yugoslavia, the king he wrote the tribute to. And Smiljan still nowadays is in Croatia (now independent nation since 1992). If you see the links it will probably look much clearer. If there are any doubts please ask me. FkpCascais (talk) 16:40, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. Thanks for the succinct summary. Binksternet (talk) 16:56, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment from blocked user Asdisis, confirmed and blocked IP. ::::::Croatia-Slavonia was founded after Tesla's birth in 1868, I think. The sources reference Kingdom of Croatia when they speak of Croatia. That is the only "Croatia" that existed back then. The same goes for present time, "Croatia" references Republic of Croatia. Croatia was an autonomous kingdom in Austrian Empire and Austro-Hungary. Military Frontier has a bit complicated status and I still say we can not resolve it by ourselves and that it even isn't necessary for the purpose of this discussion. Even back in those days Croatia, Hungary and Austria had different views on certain political questions. For instance Croatia and Hungary viewed Dalmatia as part of Croatia. The official name of Croatia after 1868 was Triune Kingdom of Croatia Slavonia and Dalmatia, but we can see Austrian documents neglect Dalmatia and speak only of Croatia-Slavonia. Also in the official documents we can see Dalmatia sometimes is stated in the beginning. Tesla's passport is one example. That is because Austrian had viewed Dalmatia as something separate from Croatia-Slavonia while Hungary and Croatia had not. That was ongoing debate to the end of the empire. If First World War had not happened, Austro-Hungary would probably become Trial Empire of Austira, Hungary and Croatia which was promised to postpone its demands to the administration over Military Frontier in exchange for Bosnia which would together with Military Frontier unite with Croatia. Regarding Military Frontier, Croatia and Hungary also viewed it as a part of Croatia as it was stated in Croatian–Hungarian Settlement. As I said, there are more aspects to say Military Frontier belonged to Croatia. Above sources say that it belonged to Croatia in formal and legislative way but the administration was under military control. This is a hard question and let's not waste time trying to resolve it without any source. Even if we would resolve it we would need to conduct original research and synthesis to apply it to Tesla and that is against Wikipedia's policy. The best approach is to sum up what the reliable sources say. We don't have to choose one or the other but we can include what the both groups of sources say. A great majority of sources say either Military Frontier or Croatia, and so far we do not know if Military Frontier is a part of Croatia. I say that we should look for the sources that mention both Military Frontier and Croatia and see the context. I will spare some time to provide such sources if I will be able to find them. User:FkpCascais, you speak of "control" over Military Frontier and the meaning of that word is vague. That belongs to the sphere of original research, unfortunately. I think you provided reliable sources and to conclude the debate we only need to find sources that speak both of Military Frontier and Croatia to see if the correct formulation is Croatian Military Frontier, Croatia, Austrian Empire or Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire but not Croatia. To give an example, we wouldn't think twice to determine if Texas is part of USA or not. And what is important here is the meaning of "part of". That is also in dispute. To some the administration is needed to regard Military Frontier a part of Croatia, and to others legislature is required. That is a topic for itself, and let's not get into it. Yes, Croatian Military Frontier is just a name and the word "Croatian" does not say that CMF is "a part of" Croatia. It's simply an English translation and the Croatian literature does not use the term that has the word "Croatian". Also you are correct that the general command was reluctant to give administration over Military Frontier to Croatia. They had conscripted people to the army and used them in various battles. But let's think reasonably. Why had Croatia repeatedly ask for administration over Military Frontier. Upon which grounds? If Military Frontier was truly independent from Croatia that wouldn't happen. I think that is reasonable to conclude. In that case Military Frontier wouldn't be abolished and became a part of Croatia but a separate crown land. Obviously Croatia had some grounds upon which it demanded the administration and obviously those demands were fulfilled. It may be that everyone who posted here is right but the only dispute is how we look upon the phrase "part of". The people are speaking of legislature, and administration, but the problem is to map those to the phrase "part of". I think I can simplify the debate. If Military Frontier is in the legislative sense Croatian land and if it is under military administration from Vienna, can we say it is a part of Croatia? Here, I leave for you all to answer this key question. To reflect to your explanation of inner subdivision of Austrian Empire I would like to add that Military Frontier in the beginning was under full Croatian control, administratively and in the legislative sense. See here Military Frontier. I'm pasting a section from that article which is supported by 3 sources : it was divided into two districts each under its own special military administration: the Croatian Military Frontier and the Slavonian Military Frontier. Both of these, along with all later military districts, were placed in 1783 under the unified control of the Croatian General Command headquartered in Zagreb (end of section). Only later the general command in Vienna took administration over. To conclude this long post I will state that my opinion is that the article should reflect Tesla's statement. I find that the most important thing to the people is Tesla's own opinion and not some complicated political situation which we can't resolve anyways. To me Tesla's own opinion is the most important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.136.243.205 (talk) 17:41, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Curios how you didn't mention the only right formulation: Smiljan, Military Frontier, Austrian empire. Regarding what you said about what would happened if there was no WWI, you said it all regarding your personal views of favouring Greater Croatia. And just one minor remark to show how you turn things upside-down, you say "Why had Croatia repeatedly ask for administration over Military Frontier. Upon which grounds? If Military Frontier was truly independent from Croatia that wouldn't happen." when if fact is the opposite: if the Military Frontier was part of Croatia, Croatia wouldn't be asking Austrians to give it to them, simple logic. Also, see the difference between Military Frontier province and Croatian Military Frontier (just one of the section of the MF), stop confusing them constantly. I think everything is said, from now on it is just talking in circles. FkpCascais (talk) 18:07, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

PS: I just found Asdisis escaping his block with IP account at another Serbian-related article Croatians are opposing some facts, and reported it at ANI, and all this single purpose "Tesla is Croatian-related" accounts and IPs are very suspect and disruptive. FkpCascais (talk) 18:13, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment from blocked user Asdisis, confirmed and blocked IP.

Yes I mentioned both formulations. See: Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire but not Croatia. I explained how the only dispute is whether Military Frontier (CMF) is a "part of Croatia". Military Frontier is already included and CMF can be included but that is too much since we don't need every possible subdivision mentioned. The link to Military Frontier is provided. I'm sorry, but I really don't have time to continue this debate. I will only try to find the sources I mentioned and that's it. They can be included in the article so this is resolved once and for all. I read some literature about the subject and the literature says that Croatia was promised to incorporate both Military Frontier and Bosnia. Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria was a supporter of Trial Kingdom idea. I heard that in a documentary. I can try and find it, if you are interested. Yes, I know the difference between Military Frontier and CMF and in my last comment I said exactly what you had said. I posted above the text from Wiki page. CMF is a subdivision of Military Frontier, and the word "Croatian" is only present in English translation. The direct translation would be Ban's Krajina. You misunderstood me, although I agreed with you. 141.136.243.205 (talk) 18:46, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

There was the possibility of United States of Greater Austria but we can only speculate how big would Croatia have been within it. The entire point is that we cant really say in the lead that Tesla is a Croatian-born Serbian-American scientist, and that is what this discussion initially was about. Regards, FkpCascais (talk) 19:06, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Editing Wikipedia is much simpler than having editors give their own analyses of what names should be used for places. We go by reliable sources about the topic of the article, per WP:NOR, for material that goes into the article, and use the Wikipedia policy WP:UNDUE when the reliable sources differ.

Here again is the excerpt from WP:UNDUE.

"Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources."

--Bob K31416 (talk) 19:20, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

In the section below entitled 'Can we stop this, please!' Nikola Tesla specifically mentions the province of Lika in his patent applications. I did some reading about the history of Lika and it has always been Croatian territory ever since Croats migrated there in the 7th century therefore belonging to Croatia. The Military Frontier clearly ran through Lika which has always been a traditional part of Croatia. Can we now agree that Nikola Tesla was a Croatian-born Serbian American?Michael Cambridge 22:34, 18 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Cambridge (talk • contribs)

Maybe we can put a gigantic Croatian flag on top of the article, how about that? FkpCascais (talk) 22:57, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, I have to go now because I'm due back on the planet Earth. Have fun everyone on your subpage. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:01, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

The IP pretending here to be a Serb from Croatia was actually Asdisis evading block! CONFIRMED! The IP was blocked. This guys are full of tricks and capable of everything just to get their way here. I am honestly asking other editors not to give more wings to this IP and Tesla is Croatian single purpose accounts, please, cause it is clear it is the same person/group. FkpCascais (talk) 04:17, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Hello user FkpCascais, I'm the user in the above comment's. It seems I haven't been banned. You have wrongfully accused me of being the user that got blocked. I would just like to state that I don't need this, and I'm withdrawing myself from this debate as it had become an argument and not a debate. You can delete my comments if you wish. I really do not have interest in nationalistic disputes. If we can not discuss like civilized people I'm not interested in this debate. I watched the previous debates and I had not jointed because I have no interest in such pointless debates. I joined not when the user that caused trouble had been banned because I thought we could close this debates by providing sources. I wish you good luck.

Oh I see that my ip address had changed, that explains why I could edit the page. The old ip is probably banned. You may delete this and other comments if you wish. Goodbye again.

Also, I stated earlier I come from Zagreb, but so does 1/5 of all people from Croatia. The blocked user had been using many ip's from different regions of Croatia as I have understood, and he had also bragged he knows to use proxy servers so I wouldn't be surprised if he came here with American or even Serbian ip address, so there is really no way to determine who is who on the basis of ip address, only on conduct patters, so nothing really had been proved, as you state. Also my ip address come from a completely different blocks, as you can see they start with 141 while the blocked user's start with 8., but admins seem not to know anything about it. I'm a programmer and I know a great deal about it. You asked in the ANI if the location can change. Yes it can, for instance my ISP had changed my ip as a part of regular rotation. The old ip that got blocked is not being used by another person. The ip that is reused can be given to any user in a certain area, so when you look at ip location you can see the location changing when the ip addresses are rotated. Also there is no way to determine who is who based on ip addresses as anyone can use proxy server and appear to come from anywhere in the world, so you are pretty much wasting your time by looking at ip addresses. They can only be used to see if some had used 2 accounts without changing an ip address. If the ip's are different nothing can be concluded. You just now banned me only because I come from Zagreb. I hope this helps you. If you have any question I would gladly answer, just ping me from your talk page, since I won't participate the debates opened here, at least not until people start to behave. I thought that, after the block of the mentioned user that will be the case, and the user Bob had started a promising debate, but it seems we need something more to get this article in order. Pomaže Bog. 141.138.44.233 (talk) 20:25, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't wish to delete your comments, and all I want is people to move on and not continue with same issues that have been exhaustively discussed already. My question was not if an IP can change, but if the geolocation of one same IP can. As you can see, Asdisis geolocation [9] (this one was confirmed it was Asdisis cause he edited assuming it was him before his block and he just forgot to sign in), is exactly the same as the one from your previous comments 141.138.44.138, and from this last one 141.136.243.205. But not "exact" like just same city, but exact city, street and house, exact coordinates. PS: What discussion you want to open if already everything was discussed and consensus was reached? PS2: No Serb nowadays says Pomaže Bog. FkpCascais (talk) 21:34, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

You have to read more carefully since you misunderstood me several times. I explained it in the above comment. The same ip address can change geolocation, however it will stay within a certain area. Ip addresses are changed frequently and you can see that my had changed. The ip address I had yesterday is now occupied by someone else, and he is being blocked from editing Wikipedia ;). The same address that yesterday showed it comes from Zagreb can now show a different geolocation since it had been given to another user. However, it had been given to another user within a certain area so geolocation had not changed much, or even at all. Now it may show Zagreb or some nearby city. Oh, my. It seems you think ip address point to the individual residences. That is not the case. They point to internet service provider's servers. The postal address is the address of the server and the user that can be miles away. Probably the great part of Zagreb and it's surrounding are served by that server. The location stated is not my residence. I'm several miles away from the location of the server. It seems that the admin Dianna also doesn't understand much about it so she had blocked the ip address without much thinking. You can't pinpoint anyone to a certain ip address. The only thing you can do with it is to see is the same ip address was being used on different accounts. Then you would know the same person is using 2 accounts. If the ip address is different there's nothing you can do. I was blocked because I edited here and it is reasonable to conclude that the banned user will continue to edit pages he edited before the ban. I hope this helps. Goodbye and good luck to you. 141.138.23.26 (talk) 22:01, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Once we have IPs defending the exact or similar point of view from same exact server we often suspect it is the same person. I hope you stay and create an account and contribute regularly here, feel free to contact me on my talk-page whenever you feel like. Best regards, FkpCascais (talk) 22:40, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

So we have established that there are reliable sources stating that Nikola Tesla was born in Croatia and there are reliable sources stating that he was born in the Military Frontier. Personal opinions need to be put aside and only take into consideration what the reliable sources say. It matters not if there are more sources stating that Nikola Tesla was born in the Military Frontier of the Austrian Empire or if more sources state that Nikola Tesla was born in Croatia. What matters here is that evidence is in favour of Nikola Tesla being born in Croatia which was either overlooked or deliberately ignored. It makes reasonable sense to state in the lead of the article that "Nikola Tesla was a Croatian-born Serbian American", reflecting Nikola Tesla's own sentiments on where he was born. The facts are in and a review of the evidence concludes that Nikola Tesla was born in Croatia even if the evidence states that he was born in the Military Frontier. The province of Lika where the Military Frontier was located was a traditional part of Croatia ever since the Croats migrated to the area in the 7th century, before the Military Frontier was formed. Let us reach a consensus now to state at the beginning of the article that "Nikola Tesla was a Croatian-born Serbian American", fully referenced, citing reliable sources that have been presented in this discussion. Those who are in favour of seeing this fulfilled please make your voices heard now and reply to this post. The proposed change would appear as such- "Nikola Tesla (Serbian Cyrillic: Никола Тесла; 10 July 1856 – 7 January 1943) was a Croatian-born Serbian American inventor, electrical engineer, mechanical engineer, physicist, and futurist best known for his contributions to the design of the modern alternating current (AC) electricity supply system." Let this long overdue clarification be done in the interest of truth and fairness and above all, let's do it for Nikola Tesla.Michael Cambridge 11:58, 20 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Cambridge (talk • contribs)

Are you disputing he was born in Smiljan? Because I think we all know that Smiljan was not part of Croatia at the time. If a source makes that mistake then it is demonstrating its unreliability by making factual errors. This logic of yours is stretched and tortured to meet your ends. We are not going to re-write history. Chillum 14:26, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Chillum, How would you apply WP:UNDUE here? --Bob K31416 (talk) 20:24, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I would say "untrue" is more apt than "undue". We don't put things in articles we know to be false, even if a source says it. Chillum 21:38, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Chillum, Smiljan was always a part of Croatia because it is found in Lika which has always been a traditional part of Croatia. The reliable sources that support the fact that Nikola Tesla was born in Croatia support the fact that he was born in Smiljan which was a part of Croatia. Read the sources carefully and you will see that it is true. Let's go ahead with the proposed change to the wording which is supported by reliable sources and the information is definitely factual.Michael Cambridge 22:03, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Side discussion re POV pushing

Oh my God. This does it. I'm speaking out against this and let it be known. I'm just asking anyone objective to look at this comments by Chillum and says there isn't anything wrong with Tesla's article. Someone should review this whole page because Serbian POV pushers have done it now. People who mention Croatia are being banned, accused of POV pushing, and many more things while this kind of behavior is tolerated. It is well known Serbia had invested a lot in Tesla's brand and it doesn't have intention to "share" it with Croatia. It wouldn't surprise me if a part of that investment went to buy Wikipedia's editors. How do hell do we all know that Smiljan was not a part of Croatia? Are people born with that knowledge? Who suggested you to say that? You sir are a POV pusher because you "know" Smiljan was not a part of Croatia without any source provided. That goes along for the user FkpCascais who has been pushing the same claims for ages with no sources at all. That is the very essence of POV pushing. Yes, the user that provided Tesla's own statement that he is born in Croatia and Tesla's own diploma saying the very same and other secondary sources must be a POV pusher and should be banned because we "all know" you are right with no sources provided. Croatian editors stay the hell far away from this site and I've seen many of them come and gone when they saw what's happening here. I'm surprised Asdisis had stayed so long and that in return got him banned. There's no way one man can fight a group of people that gathered here to push Serbian POV, and he is a fool for trying. I hope his example will serve as a warning to anyone who dares to mention Croatia. Just put a banner over this whole article "Dare to mention Croatia and you'll finish up like Asdisis". Or even better, "Dare to mention Croatia Mr. Tesla and you will be accused of sneaky political games". Have fun entering POV in this article. Have fun accusing me of being Croatian POV pusher, and have fun searching the location of my IP like you did to the user above and many more. It is a well known fact that POV pushers are looking to IP addresses to discredit someone on the fact of their whereabouts. I'm not pushing anything but I'm speaking against Serbian POV pushing in this post by Chillum. This is the only reason I came here. I couldn't believe my eyes such an experienced editor is capable of doing that and that raises some big issued to the backstory. I wouldn't come to speak of some anonymous guy that is POV pushing but Chillum and FkpCascais are experienced users and nontheless POV pushers. Michael Cambridge is the last one that is trying to provide sources. Even if he is wrong in his claims he deserves better and what does he get? This POV pushing comment by Chillum an long term and experienced editor who's using POV pushing because it is well known that POV pushing works on Wikipedia when you have a perception of an experienced editor. After Asdisis and User talk:Michael Cambridge gone, your job is successfully done. I hope you are getting your money worth out of it. If not, you sirs are fools for doing this job for free because Serbia had invested a lot of money in Tesla brand and you somehow managed miss all of it. 54.161.200.54 (talk) 22:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

The fact that you think I am a Serbian POV pusher makes it very clear that you are jumping at shadows. I don't give a rats ass about Serbia or Croatia, they are both so far outside experience that they might as well be on Mars. I am more interested in building an encyclopedia in a neutral fashion. If you need to misrepresent those who disagree with you then you may need to reconsider the validity of your position. You are not going to influence this article with walls of text and endless filibustering. We are not going to rewrite history for your sake.

Who are you when you are not logged out? Chillum 22:40, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

You need to look at the history 54.161.200.54. This has been extensively discussed recently by many editors. There is not a consensus for the change you want. --Chetvorno^TALK 22:56, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Chillum what position of mine? My position is that you are a POV pusher because you said that "we all know" something against the sources user Michael Cambridge put to the table. That is my position and you already started with the well established practice of discrediting me with personal accusations. You sir are a POV pusher because of your own comment and not because of me so please continue with your personal accusations against me. I won't answer them. They will just serve as an example of your behavior. You, sir can't justify your earlier comment with personal accusations against me. Bob K31416 do yourself a favor and do not mention Croatia or you yourself might experience what others had experienced earlier. Or even better, do yourself a favor and stay the hell away from this article all together. Wikipedia is not perfect and there will always be cases like this. I had spoken from this IP although I have an account exactly because of this behavior you sir Chillum had demonstrated in this comment. I don't need personal accusations on my account for speaking against POV pushing nor I have any interest in this article nor I had ever participated in editing here. I was summoned to take a view of your comment and generally about what's happening around here. I while ago I was approached and offered money while participating in editing one article about Tesla and me and the chief editor refused to take part in that, but it seems others gladly accepted the offer. As I've said I hope you got your money worth out of it. I'm out. Do not respond to me. I said everything I have to say in my initial comment. It does not matter who I am. The only thing that matters is your POV pushing comment, so please apologize for it before you dig yourself deeper with defending your POV pushing stand with personal accusations against anonymous IP. 54.161.200.54 (talk) 23:40, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

54.161.200.54, are you addressing me? What "personal accusations" did I make against you? --Chetvorno^TALK 23:49, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

No, that's an obvious mistake. I was addressing sir Chillum. I corrected it. The mistake happened due to both your username's starting with Ch. Although, you sir had also made an inappropriate comment by stating I want to introduce some changes in the article, when I stated clearly that I was summoned to review the POV pushing comment of an experienced editor who certainly knows what he did. It only leaves us to speculate about the backstory, and I know I speculated, that is why I used an anonymous IP. However the POV pushing stands, and because it comes from such an experienced editor make is especially horrifying. 54.161.200.54 (talk) 00:18, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Chillum, Whether or not Tesla was born in Croatia seems to depend on what one means by "Croatia". It wouldn't be false information to state in a footnote that some authors say that Tesla was born in Croatia and some say in the Military Frontier, and it's what WP:UNDUE would require. --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:54, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Bob K31416 can you please see the article Smiljan, see geographically where it is, then see the year Tesla was born, and then see the article Military Frontier. Are you aware that historiography has no doubts about the fact that Smiljan was within the Military Frontier and not Croatia-Slavonia at time of Tesla birth, and the only thing makes some biographers some confusion is the fact that later Smiljan became part of Croatia, so they simplify it to "born in Croatia"? Are you aware that troughout history of Croatia, even as an Austrian province, called Croatia-Slavonia by then, it still had its borders, and unfortunatelly for these users Smiljan was not part of Croatia-Slavonia but rather of the multi-ethnic Military Frontier? (I have a book source for the multi-ethnicity of the MF, want it?) These users are using those flaws to get their POV into the article. There is no abstact meaning of Croatia, which is what these users are trying to fool you, Croatia had allways defined borders which slightly changed throughout its history. Also, you will not satisfy these users with the footnote (not sure why you try to be a judge here if we already been exhaustively trought this and made a consensus, which you are in fact challenging now), they want the word Croatia in lead, but this what you are doing you will just encourage them to continue their crusade. PS: See Britannica how presents him Nikola Tesla PS2: Are you aware about the number of sources saying Tesla was born in Military Frontier (including Croatian Military Frontier, a section of MF), and only a few saying specifically that by time of his birth Smiljan was in Croatia? (don't count the ones saying Smiljan, nowadays in Croatia). It is not a case of some-some, there is a clear majority. FkpCascais (talk) 01:32, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

The article already says Tesla was born in a place that nowadays belongs to Croatia, so what is the problem? These guys want to push Croatia just to the top of the lede so with the sentence "Croatian-born Serbian-American" (actually the X-born is disencouraged by MOS) will give the impression that Tesla was somehow half Croatian half Serbian, which is absolutely not the case. Besides, this guys constantly try to make things out how Smiljan where Tesla was born at time of his birth was in Croatia, but unfortunately for them, it wasn't, they just refuse to read the article Military Frontier and understand what really is and that it was separate unit from Croatia-Slavonia. They are clear nationalistic POV-pushers with the only purpose not to make the article better, but to add the word Croatia to the lede. They even lie. I provided many RS, not my fault all of them said what they didn't wanted them to say. All these single purpose "Tesla-Croatia" accounts should have been indef-blocked along with Asdisis on same exact basis. First they tried "Croatian-American scientist", then "Croatian-born" based on how MF and Croatia were the same, and now the claim Lika was always culturally Croatian, they change arguments each time to see which one can glue better and are just making fun and fools of all of us here. I am astonished by the patience some of you "Serbian nationalists" have with these IPs and users lol FkpCascais (talk) 01:32, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, but I'd like to see Chillum's response to my last message. --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:12, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Sure. I just pointed out some of the flaws of your reasoning which I already explained to you, but you ignored and you seem to be totally unfamiliarised with the issue here being discussed, but not your fault. Cheers. FkpCascais (talk) 02:20, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

What would you like me to say that FkpCascais has not already eloquently said? Chillum 06:44, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Chillum. Bob K31416, if this were an article about a less famous person, would there be any objection to our current wording? I don't think so. --Chetvorno^TALK 07:40, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Chillum, Here's a review of our brief discussion. I'd like to see your response to my last point, which was responding to your point before it.

Bob K31416 wrote,

How would you apply WP:UNDUE here?

Chillum wrote,

I would say "untrue" is more apt than "undue". We don't put things in articles we know to be false, even if a source says it.

Bob K31416 wrote:

Whether or not Tesla was born in Croatia seems to depend on what one means by "Croatia". It wouldn't be false information to state in a footnote that some authors say that Tesla was born in Croatia and some say in the Military Frontier, and it's what WP:UNDUE would require.

--Bob K31416 (talk) 10:08, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

That's is Bob K31416 fade away. And stay the hell away from this article, you won't get an answer. Sir Chillum, had already wrote an answer to your question earlier. Look here: [10]. Now we see a complete shift in his behavior, by stating [11] , and ignoring your question. It is a well known fact that some editors are getting payed for their "job" here on Wikipedia and if any article of Wikipedia is suspicious, then this is a perfect candidate. This kind of behavior done by senior editor (sir Chillum) only leaves a great suspicion. No way you can "fight" an army of payed editors all alone. You can try and finish up like Asdisis so go away and don't come back. Just fade away man...I'm done reviewing this article as well. I won't even comment on POV pushing done in the new topic below. I don't have time to fight all these senior POV pushers. You won't be able to do anything pass them, so just leave it be. This whole page should be reviewed. 54.158.120.159 (talk) 13:51, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Your accusations against me are too absurd to require defence. They do more to discredit you than I. Chillum 17:54, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

As you can see at Talk:Nikola_Tesla/Nationality_and_ethnicity/Archive_3 (see the sources MrX gathered and collapsed) there are 8 RS saying he was born in Serbia, and even 2 saying he was born in Montenegro. Then we should add those in the footnote as well. Clear mistakes obviously, just as the ones saying Croatia, but this is where you are driving us now Bob K314116. FkpCascais (talk) 14:29, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Can we stop this, please!

I'd like to propose to close this thread for the sake what Nikola wrote in his patent applications:

No. 834,823. Patented Jan. 26, 1886. UNITED STATES PATENT OFFICE.

NIKOLA TESLA, OF SMILJAN LIKA, AUSTRIA-HUNGARY, ...

COMMUTATOR FOR DYNAMO-ELECTRIC MACHINES.

To all whom it may concern: Be it known that I, NIKOLA TESLA, of Smiljan Lika, border country of Austria-Hungary,...

No. 454,622. Patented June 23,1891. UNITED STATES PATENT OFFICE.

NIKOLA TESLA, OF NEW YORK, N. Y.

SYSTEM OF ELECTRIC LIGHTING.

To all whom it may concern: Be it known that I, NIKOLA TESLA, a subject of the Emperor of Austria-Hungary, from Smiljan, Lika, border country of Austria-Hungary, ...

No. 382,279. Patented May 1, 1888. UNITED STATES PATENT OFFICE.

NIKOLA TESLA, OF NEW YORK, N. Y. ...

ELECTRO-MAGNETIC MOTOR.

To all whom it may concern: Be it known that I, NIKOLA TESLA, a subject of the Emperor of Austria, from Smiljan, Lika, border country of Austria Hungary,

Patent No. 390,721, dated October 6, 1888.

UNITED STATES PATENT OFFICE. NIKOLA TESLA, OF NEW YORK, N. Y.

To all whom it may concern: Be it known that I, NIKOLA TESLA, a subject of the Emperor of Austria, from Smiljan, Lika, border country of Austria-Hungary, ...

No. 447,921. Patented Mar. 10,1891.

UNITED STATES PATENT OFFICE. NIKOLA TESLA, OF NEW YORK, N. Y.

ALTERNATING ELECTRIC CURRENT GENERATOR.

To all whom it may concern: Be it known that I, NIKOLA TESLA, a subject of the Emperor of Austria, from Smiljan, Lika, border country of Austria-Hungary, ...

In his patent applications I see only border country or the Military Frontiers or Militaergrenz (province of Austria). Nowhere can be seen Croatia. I see that the role of now blocked Asisdis took some 'Michael Cambridge'. Somewhere (from Kukuljevic, Glasoviti Hrvati prošlih vjekova) I read that even famous Roman Emperor Gaius Aurelius Valerius Diocletianus was a Croat!--72.66.12.17 (talk) 02:02, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

What we are experiencing on this talk-page is the result of a wide-scale nationalistic phenomenom in Croatia regarding Tesla worth mention in the article

"47. Interestingly, because Tesla originated in the Croatian Krajina, or military frontier, Croat historians were busy trying to reassert the Croationness of the physician, albeit with little success, since it was widely accepted that Tesla's parents were both Serbs." The Past in Exile by Birgit Bock-Luna. I think at this point that our talk-page here certainly is one of the most abused ones in the entire Wikipedia by nationalistic POV-pushers that seem never to stop their crusade. That fact by itself is already demonstrative about the magnitude of this problem in Croatia with Tesla, and since he was born in the region, in my view, it would be worth mention in the article. This ends up not being a simple case of obsession of few editors, but in fact they are victims of a much larger phenomenom that actualy comes from the populistic revisionism by Croatian historians, prone to nationalism which was awaken among historians in the entire region since the 1990s. Would anyone oppose if I add by now this sourced statement from the Birgit Bock-Luna book?

One simple exemple is the Tesla article at Croatian Wikipedia, which begins the article by saying he was Croatian without any source, and whenever someone tried to change it to Serbian, it would immediately be reverted. The article then actually starts with an entire section titled "Thesis about Croatian origin" and finishes the section by saying how Italian encyclopedia Treccani backs up this thesis (although that is not truth, we saw here that they have two articles about Tesla, one saying "of Croatian origin" and another saying "Yugoslav scientist") and continues saying how great the Treccani encyclopedia is, they even won the Italian Gold Medal for Culture in 1988 (!). I mean, this is serios business in Croatia. When the war between Serbs and Croats started in 1992, Croats destroyed the monument of Nikola Tesla in Gospić because he was Serb.[12]

I also founded some local Serbian and Croatian articles from the mainstream media dealing with this issue, I am still in process of examination of them and I will now start searching if there are an scholar sources regarding this phenomenom in Croatia, and it that case, if I get to gather enough material which would deal objectively and neutraly about this subject, maybe a section in the "Legacy" section could be added. FkpCascais (talk) 03:29, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Comment from blocked user Asdisis, confirmed and blocked.

No one is disputing Nikola Tesla is Serbian, so I personally do not see a point for opening this discussion. The only reason I can see for you to open such discussion is POV pushing. Also, Croatian historians in great majority state that Nikola Tesla is Serbian so I'm against stating this in the article. It is a generalization that would start too many discussions and we don't need that since a general consensus is that Nikola Tesla is Serbian. If the source said "some Croatian historians" that would be a different story, but this is a generalization which isn't true. 2001:41D0:8:90C6:0:0:0:1 (talk) 11:18, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

2001, have you noticed that you accuse people here of pushing a POV pretty much every edit you make while at the same time using any argument you can to push a single point of view here? You are POV pushing and accusing others is not going to fool anyone into thinking it is the other way around. You are being met with incredible patience and your concerns are being addressed. Please stop with the accusations of bad faith, it is disruptive. Chillum 14:21, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

@2001, seems clearly that there was a radical shift in Croatia towards its relation with Tesla, from 1992 when he was undesired and his statue was destroyed because he represented the Serbs, till nowadays, where there seems to be a widespread revisionism and Croatization of Tesla in Croatia. What Bock-Luna mentions in her book seems to be a substantial trend in Croatia. I am not at all convinced your claim how "no one is disputing Tesla is Serbian" is so correct, Croatian Wikipedia article proves many in Croatia do dispute, and even here we had a fair amount of Croatian users and IPs asking for the "Croatian-American" wording, since they never succeded, I think the switch towards the "Croatian-born" is just a reassessment of the strategy of the same goal. Regards, FkpCascais (talk) 14:39, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Are you really generalizing the act of few people from the wartime to the whole nation by saying that Tesla was "not desired"? Does the article really need this generalization? Interesting you you accuse of wanting to put Croatian flag in the article while you have been pretty busy removing every sign of Croatia from the article. See here. You are only proving your POV pushing stand to remove every trace of "Croatia" from the article. I'm surprised this is tolerated by senior editors around here who had accused me of POV pushing although I haven't asked for any change in the article while your single handed edits are approved by them. The ip person above stated that some editors are payed to edit this article, and that he was offered money himself. I won't be participating in this as I'm only interested in the section I started that doesn't even involve Tesla per say. Good luck with your edit request. 2001:41D0:8:90C6:0:0:0:1 (talk) 15:42, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, this incredible insistence in adding Croatia to the lede is making me check more facts found on the article. And seems I am right on that one as well. See here, "When he was fifteen, Nikola continued education at a High School (Higher Real gymnasium) in Rakovac near Karlovac. The classes were held in German, as it was a school within the Austro-Hungarian Military Frontier." it is on the page 28, of Nikola Tesla by Aleksandar Marinčić. Also, the original documents in German from the highschool all say the school was in the Militargrentze (Military Frontier), that is why they are in German, cause German was the primary language in the Military Frontier. The website is not a reliable source, but the documents from the Karlovac Highschool look quite crystal clear regarding the fact that the school was not in Croatia but in the Military Frontier (see here). So seems my edit is correct. FkpCascais (talk) 21:54, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment from blocked user Asdisis, confirmed and blocked.

You removed a source stating that Karlovac is in Croatia. Furthermore you neglect this document which states Rakovac is in Croatia. So now we have a mix of sources stating both Military Frontier and Croatia, while we also have a source that states Military Frontier along with Croatia and Slavonia constitute a single land. You are obviously working against the sources and I'm surprised that experienced editors are seeing this happening without a single reaction. Well if it is alright to them, who am I to object. I'm participating as anonymous ip. I'm just saying the obvious thing. Do as you wish. I'm just interested in the section I opened. 2001:41D0:8:90C6:0:0:0:1 (talk) 23:20, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
I removed a source? When? I only brought a new source and added what says there. Also, the original documents that we can see in that website clearly indicate that the school was in the Militargretze, doesn't they? (don't read the text the author of the website wrote, that is unreliable, just look at the documents). Oh, and please, stop ignoring the numerous sources that say Military Frontier was separate entity from Croatia. The highschool was either in Croatia either in the Military Frontier, and seems obvious it was in the Military Frontier, it is sourced with a RS now, and the school documents also indicate so. FkpCascais (talk) 23:48, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

~~Comment from blocked user Asdisis, confirmed and blocked.~~
There was a reliable source which states that Tesla moved to "Karlovac, Croatia" next to that sentence. I know that several reliable sources state exactly that. I'm not interested in battling your POV pushing so I won't waste my time to find those sources (nor the sources about Tesla's telegram, nor the sources about Tesla's abstinence from talking sides in Croatian and Serbian disputes) for now. People who are familiar with the topic will remember. Again I have to answer your misinterpretation that Military Frontier was a separate entity from Croatia and ask you again. What do the presented sources above state about formal, and what about administrative aspect of that relationship. I asked you several times but you fail to answer that and continue with POV pushing of administrative aspect. Also I do not, after all you said above, you are in a position to asses if a source is reliable. You continue to use unreliable source as your argument that the Tesla's telegram is fake. You accused my initial reliable sources (of which the most important was already verified trough Military Frontier article) to be revisionist, obscure, and Croatian/Serbian (whatever you imply by that). I already said, I will point to misuse of the sources, but I won't battle your POV pushing. You may enter any edit you want in the article. However do not think I won't share my opinion if some sources are misused or misinterpreted, or if some sources are neglected. So please, do not be afraid you have to go over me to introduce your edits in the article. I do not have the willpower like some editors who were present here recently to fight you and other people gathered around this article. I'm concentrated in my section and in the very same section on Military Frontier article. I will be very interested to see if the same people who supported your POV pushing here, pop up over there. 2001:41D0:8:90C6:0:0:0:1 (talk) 21:14, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
You just said "What do the presented sources above state about formal, and what about administrative aspect of that relationship. I asked you several times but you fail to answer that and continue with POV pushing of administrative aspect." ... OK, I understand that it is hard to be in your position defending something which is clearly hard to defend cause all evidence is against you, so you must improvise and use some hard mental gymnastics, but playing deaf is disruptive. Didn't just a few days ago we been trough that and I posted some sources for it? Here is one exemple: In 1627, the Militar Frontier was removed from the control of the Sabor and put under direct rule of the Habsburg military, which would have complete civilian and military authority over it until the Military Frontiers abolition in the early 1870s. I posted a few others as well. So how can you claim I failed to answer and I am POV-pushing? (don't answer to me please, it is a rhetorical question, we are finished, and this thread isn't about that). FkpCascais (talk) 21:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
~~Comment from blocked user Asdisis, confirmed and blocked.~~
Yes this speaks about administrative aspect, but I also asked about formal aspect. I guess I won't get an answer. Yes, this discussion belongs to Military Frontier article. I will only post in my section above the consensus reached in Military Frontier talk page. 2001:41D0:8:90C6:0:0:0:1 (talk) 22:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Support title suggestion: a good idea and was hit on before (User: 130.25.70.157 and me [13]). Just needs to be cited to RS noting the controversy. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 14:25, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
I will try to dedicate some time to it in the next days and see what can we find. If we gather enough material it would be nice, and the section itself could then be used as response towards any future Croatian or Serbian or an other POV pushing attempts. FkpCascais (talk) 14:39, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Hello FkpCascais and Fountains of Bryn Mawr. Will anything become of this topic. I'm willing to help. Croatians have always stole culture from Serbs and they have been for a long time trying to present Tesla as a Croat. This should be added to the article. I haven't seen nobody speaks for Tesla when his statues were mined during Croatian aggression towards Republic of Serbian Krajina and I saw nobody speaking for Tesla when his house was destroied in the 1990' because he is a Serb and I saw nobody speaking for him when Croatia ethnically cleansed 550 000 of his fellow countrymen from Croatia. Only in Operation Storm they did the greatest war crime since WW2 by ethnically cleansing 280 000 Serbs and killing the rest of old people and women who couldn't flee. I haven't seen anyone speaking for his fellow countrymen even now when they are destroying their cultural heritage and not allowing them to return to Croatia. I saw nobody speaking for Tesla when they are celebrating the greatest ethnic cleansing since WW2 every year, and that will happen again in few weeks. This all should be in the article so nobody is confused that Nikola Tesla has anything to do with Croatia which did not exist up to 1992 when Germany and other western powers made an aggression towards Yugoslavia. I'm willing to help. You already found a great source. I apologize I was a bit harsh. I'm not suggesting that enters the article but I agree how futile Croatian attempts to Croatisize Tesla should enter the article per the source added by FkpCascais. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.104.83.208 (talk) 20:03, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
~~Tesla has nothing to do with Croatia~~
~~Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla#Tesla has nothing to do with Croatia per 16 June 2015 RfC consensus~~

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
‹ The template Edit semi-protected is being considered for merging. ›
It's obvious that people are confusing that Smiljan is in today's Croatia with Croatian-born. Please remove that from the article and put a link to Smiljan so everybody who is interested can look where Smiljan is today. Remove (modern-day Croatia) from the article and Rebuilt, Tesla's house (parish hall) in Smiljan, Croatia -> Rebuilt, Tesla's house (parish hall) in Smiljan. Thank you. Too many people were confused and that should be stopped. Croatia did not exist until 1992, and that's almost a century and a half after the birth of Nikola Tesla. 89.255.92.42 (talk) 17:01, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
Not done - Perennial request. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:00, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
Ok. I'm fine with how it is now, I only suggested that people are getting confused that Tesla was born in Croatia which is against the consensus. Thank you. 89.255.92.42 (talk) 18:03, 21 July 2015 (UTC)