Talk:Louis Zborowski

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Untitled[edit]

Should he be included in the Category:Zborowski family? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He was named Zborowski, but where is it stated that he was related to that family? Removed also the many Polish this and thats.-- Matthead  Discuß   23:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Nationality[edit]

There seems to be a lot of inconsistency around Zborowski's nationality. In this article he is only ever described as English, with no reference ever made to Poland on the United States. He's also referred to as English in some other places, for example here: October_1924#October_19,_1924_(Sunday). However, in most race articles in which he appears in the results he is given a Polish flag (1921 French Grand Prix, 1922 French Grand Prix, 1923 Italian Grand Prix, 1924 French Grand Prix, 1924 Italian Grand Prix) except for the 1923 Indianapolis 500 where he is given a United States flag. In various sources, the Motorsport Magazine archive has him as Polish [1], DriverDB lists him as Polish [2], David Hodges' book The French Grand Prix specifically does not give his nationality (it is listed as –). Part of the confusion must have something to do with his father, Eliot Zborowski being born in the US, then moving to Britain, and his mother, who is described as an American heiress. If anyone has anything else to help clear this up that would be helpful, thanks. A7V2 (talk) 06:53, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed "British" (note that since my previous post it was changed from English to British) from this article since the only sources which actually give his nationality say he is Polish so I feel this needs to be cleared up before it can be returned to the article. A7V2 (talk) 12:53, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have the book, "The Racing Zborowskis" (2002) by David Wilson, published by the Vintage Sports Car Club, which is a pretty thorough treatment of the lives of both Louis Zborowski and his father, Elliott. Nowhere in the book does it specifically ascribe a nationality to Louis. However, it does go into his heritage in some detail, from which it is clear that, of the three possibilities - English/British, American or Polish - the least appropriate is Polish. Of his grandparents, three were American and one English; and, while there may have been other Polish-descended ancestors in the family tree, his "Zborowski" ancestors first arrived in the USA in 1662 (the spelling changing over time, so "Zborowski" is unlikely to correspond very directly to any contemporary Polish names; the last spelling was adopted by Louis's father in order to comply with a provision in his father (Martin)'s Will) and remained there to make the considerable fortune that ultimately came Louis' way. Louis himself was born in London (in 1895), 9 years after his parents had moved over from the US; he was educated in England (including at Eton College) and remained resident in England his entire life. While he may have had some Polish (or actually Prussian at the relevant time) heritage, this was many, many generations earlier and the whole "Polish Count" thing appears to have been something of an affectation (by common consent, he was not a Count, the title having been adopted by Elliott on moving to England). In those days, of course, racing drivers' nationality was of less importance than that of the manufacturers of their vehicles, so is not always definitively stated in the contemporary reports, and I strongly suspect that the prevalence of the Polish flag is rooted in Elliott's "Polish Count" affectation and maintained in multiple sources (including the Motor Sport magazine database) by little more than unwitting self-proof/circular referencing. I would argue - in the absence of sight of his passport! - that the correct nationality for Louis is in fact "British" (on account of his place of birth, education and lifelong residence), with American as the next most likely (on account of his immediate parentage) and Polish only insofar as it was an element (albeit one his father may have played upon for dramatic effect) in his distant heritage. Meanwhile, Dennis Simanaitis refers to Louis as an "Englishman" in his (usually pretty well researched) blogs, e.g.[1]. Therefore I would suggest references to "British" be reinstated and any use of the Polish flag in race articles, etc be changed to the British flag. --JamesHT1967 (talk) 22:34, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
NB French daily sports paper L'Auto refers to Zborowski as "L'Anglais" in its 29 October 1923 report of the Spanish GP at Sitges, in which he finished second. JamesHT1967 (talk) 22:57, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thankyou for that @JamesHT1967:. I think we should then put back in either "British" or "English" into this article giving the book as reference, then all of the flags in race articles should be changed to GBR/UK. A7V2 (talk) 02:01, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks @A7V2:. I am looking at some amendments to the text that encapsulate this (i.e. not just putting in "English", but adding something to the early life/background section and citing the book) and will change any flags I come across. I will probably also have a go at making similar amendments to his father's entry, too. JamesHT1967 (talk) 10:19, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://simanaitissays.com/2014/07/09/celebrating-chitty-bang-bangs/

"Count"[edit]

As recounted at Eliot Zborowski, Louis doesn't seem to have been legitimately a count. His aunt married one, but Eliot himself does not seem to have had a noble title. I've removed most references to it. Hairy Dude (talk) 18:08, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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