Talk:Ilia Topuria

Citizenship

Tatoo111. good day. (1) The source you provided stating he raised Georgian flag but this does not mean he is a Georgian as many mma fighters do raised other countries' flags during the actual weight in or ceremony weight in or hang the flags in the octagon or during post fight invterview. (Note: He was born in Germany as per source). (2) As per your edit summary, you stated he parents are Georgian, that does not make him a Georgian citizen. If If you can find independent, relaible sources such as from the major newspaper the subject is of Georgian heritage, then you can add the info in the "body text" under "Background" section and not the lead//intro section with source support the claim. (3) UFC is not considered an independent source for the subject (Topuria) has an association with UFC since he fights under UFC banner. (4) Pls do not revert again but discuss the issue here as an edit warring notification has been sent to your talk page, and if you continue to revert you will be blocked. Cassiopeia talk 23:38, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Cassiopeia in an Interview he mentioned having both Georgian and Spanish citizenships. He's fighting out of Alicante Spain. Representing Georgia in honor of his homeland, but alongside Georgian flag, he holds Spanish flag, for the opportunity Spain gave him to train. --Lemabeta (talk) 19:05, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Lemabeta (1) info need to be supported by independent, reliable sources. (2) Fighting out of certain country and fight under certain flag or his heritage do not equal of having a the citizenship in the country. If you can find independent, reliable sources (what he say in a interview is considered NOT independent source and utube is not a considered a reliable source but would consider if you can provide the website (not in youtube) that he has Georgian and Spain citizenship) then pls provide and we can add in the info and until then "German-born MMA fighter..." will remain in the article as he was born and raised in Germany are well-sourced.22:36, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Lemabeta The sources need to be independent and reliable - sportscovering and playerswiki.com are not reliable.00:45, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Cassiopeia Ilia Topuria has said in numerous Georgian interviews that he holds both Georgian and Spanish passports and represents both countries. I dont understand why you are trying to Germanize him. --Lemabeta (talk) 00:45, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Lemabeta Again, many fighters say they "represent" certain countries or their heritage/blood line/ ethnicity or the whole world, that does not equal they are the citizens of that countries of the world. It is a different thing. You need to provide sources to support the claim. In Wikipedia, it is all about verification. And again, he was born and raised in Germany. Nationality is not a bout heritage nor ethnicity or race. I am not against you nor Toupuria or any editors on this topic. I mainly follow the Wikipedia guidelines. Info needs to be supported by independent, reliable sources, and some info can be added if the source is from the subject and in this case, it could be and that is the reasons I ask you if you can provide the source (web page). Example: If he in real life have 3 children and the source say two we have to put 2 and not 3. So same here, if the source indicates he has Spanish and Gerogian passport, then we put that in if not we dont. Cassiopeia talk 00:59, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Why not just put Spanish as well? Israel Adesanya lists Nigerian and New Zealander. If he has a dual citizenship, I do not see a problem in including both. I think UFC occasionally advertises him as Spanish as well. Marty2Hotty (talk) 23:47, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello editors,

Ilia Topuria has resided in Spain for 12 years. This fact does not mean that he has the nationality. As you can read in the article I am sourcing below, Ilia Topuria has not yet started the nationallity official proceedings. To obtain Spanish nationality, a series of requirements must be met. He has publicly expressed his desire to obtain it. As of 29 February, officially he has Georgian nationality with residence in Spain. Source: https://as.com/actualidad/sociedad/por-ilia-que-topuria-no-tiene-el-dni-espanol-si-lleva-12-anos-viviendo-en-alicante-n/?outputType=amp El Caganer (talk) 14:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

He also does not have a Spanish passport, because to obtain it, you must first have the DNI (National Identity Document). El Caganer (talk) 14:30, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Ilia Topuria since today has the spanish nationality, it's been announced in the Council Of Ministers during the press conference.

Source: One of many in spanish language: https://www.elespanol.com/deportes/otros-deportes/20240305/gobierno-concede-nacionalidad-espanola-ilia-topuria/837666430_0.html

https://www.abc.es/deportes/gobierno-concede-nacionalidad-espanola-ilia-topuria-20240305130039-nt.html

Also the press conference in the minute 7:00 where they announced the spanish citizenship of Ilia Topuria https://www.youtube.com/live/cOuWR5gIbvc?si=YToxX3_sKfaHwxe_&t=420 Agusbargon (talk) 12:39, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Note: To whom it may concern" I have removed German citizenship as Toupouri was born in Germany in 1997 and according to this article, he is not eligible to acquire German citizenship/national due to he moved to Georgia after staying in Germany only 7 years. Cassiopeia talk 04:13, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

@Cassiopeia Again we come back here, last time we agreed that he has both Georgian and Spanish passports quoting you: "if the source indicates he has Spanish and Gerogian passport, then we put that in if not we dont". Source indicates that he has both citizenships. Yet you still deleted Georgian part from it. Lemabeta (talk) 09:58, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Lemabeta As per Wikipedia guideline -MOS:CITIZEN, We only put the current country where the subject is a citizen where he was notable. When Topuria was in George, he was not notable to have a page in Wikipedia, so we dont put that in the lead section (intro). Cassiopeia talk 11:01, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

@Cassiopeia he became notable in USA. Not in Spain or in Georgia, before fighting in USA he was fighting in Bahrain not Spain. How does it make sense to take away the nationality?? Its misleading. He currently holds both citizenships, therefore it needs to be mentioned that he is Georgian mma fighter. Lemabeta (talk) 14:01, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Spain doesnt allow dual citizenship for Georgian citizens. Nswix (talk) 14:39, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nswix That gives more ground to writing Georgian, as source stated that Ilia has both passports. Its unclear which passport he currently holds, therefore unless further clarification Georgian needs to be written. Lemabeta (talk) 15:35, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

I know you have some sort of pro-Caucasian agenda, and this means a lot to you, but per MOS:NATIONALITY you list nationalities where subject established themselves. He's lived in Spain since he was 15. Nswix (talk) 15:41, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nswix , @Cassiopeia living in Spain, doesnt make him Spanish citizen. Source is faulty, as neither of those countries allow dual citizenship, meanwhile the only source about passport says that he has both passports. Therefore unless further clarification Georgian mma fighter should be written because its his ethnicity. Lemabeta (talk) 15:49, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nswix As we established that the citizenship source is faulty, it would be wise to write "Ilia Topuria is a professional mma fighter of Georgian descent" instead of Spanish or Georgian, so the readers arent misled into thinking its talking about citizenship. Lemabeta (talk) 15:57, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nswix @Cassiopeia MOS:NATIONALITY states "in controversial or unclear cases, nationality is sometimes omitted." Since the source is faulty and can not be trusted as the both countries don't allow dual citizenship nationality aspect needs to be omitted. Therefore as i haven't heard from any of you, i am concluding that we have reached a consensus, i am changing it to "Ilia Topuria is a professional mixed martial artists of Georgian descent" Lemabeta (talk) 18:54, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Your edit violates MOS:ETHNICITY. Your sources also aren't reliable. You also have an open ANI against you for your conduct. Nswix (talk) 19:00, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nswix MOS:NATIONALITY states "in controversial or unclear cases, nationality is sometimes omitted." and bring an example of Nicolaus Copernicus. The sources listed aren't reliable as he can not possibly have dual citizenship, therefore i used an example given. Lemabeta (talk) 19:05, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nswix Okay, ethnicity will not be mentioned in the lead, nor will the nationality. Lemabeta (talk) 19:06, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nswix You aren't responding, yet changing it back. Stop edit warring and answer me here. Lemabeta (talk) 19:01, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/national/story/2024-02-17/ilia-topuria-stops-volkanovski-in-2nd-round-claims-featherweight-title-at-ufc-298

I think it is fine to show that he represents Georgia and Spain. Georgia is primary as that's his main ethnicity and chose it on UFC page, but he carries both the Spain and Georgia flag. Unbiased and fair, this should be the case. Marty2Hotty (talk) 23:57, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

@Nswix and Lemabeta: We are editors from different parts of the world with different time zones and have to work and personal commitments, so editors might not able to respond in time as one wish. Pls be patient.

(1) It is well sourced thaTopuria was born in Germany and moved to Georgia from age 7-15 and moved to Spanish since.

(2) German citizenship - As link provided in the discussion above - according to this article, he is not eligible to acquire German citizenship/national due to he moved to Georgia after staying in Germany only 7 years.

(3) Georgian citizenship, see -1 -2 -1, -3, and [1], Spain does not have agreed dual treaty with Georgia - this means one needs to denounce Georgian citizenship when they became Spanish citizen. (Note: When Topuria talks about having Georgia citizenship, he mostly referred to his bloodline/race/heritage/ethincity]] self right and not referred to present Spanish government's law, just like many editors would refer

Muhammad Mokaev as Russian who was born in Dagestan, Russia, but he moved to England and obtain his UK citizenship and became notable after he was English national so we refer him as an English MMA fighter in Wikipedia; or Alexander Volkanovski as Macedonia / Greek because of his heritage but in Wikipedia we refer to where he was born and became notable which is Australia or Belal Muhammad always refers himself as Palestine which is his technicity or heritage but he was born and became notable in US, so we refers him in Wikipedia as American or Stipe Miocic had brought Croatian flag and wearing Croatian flag pants (before UFC-Rebook deal) to the octagon but he was born and notable in US, so we put he is an American in the lead section, and many other examples who carry other countries flags which is not their birth countries and etc.)

(4) As per Wikipedia MOS:NATIONALITY, when the subject "became" notable as per Wikipedia guideline, we put the nationality and/current citizenship on the lead section and we can place the ethnicity in the body text. So For Touria page, we put he is a Spanish MMA fighter and in the body text we can put his ethnicity which already stated his parents are Georgian descent. Cassiopeia talk

23:33, 27 January 2024 (UTC):It's a matter of understanding what nationality is, which is a very complex topic in itself, and

there are many views on it, ranging from a primordial ethnic based understanding of nationalism to modernist schools of thought. Modern western nations usualy have modernist understanding of nationality, other nations might not share this view, this is the case for Georgia as well, and for many Georgians too, for many of them their nationality is tied to their enthnicty and Ilia has said numerous times that he feels Georgian and represents Georgia as his main flag. So in the end topic of nationality is a non-technical social issue and to find a common ground it would be in everyone's best interest to write that he is both Georgian and Spanish. BasilE99 (talk) 18:32, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I understand you are new to Wikipedia, I suggest you to read MOS:NATIONALITY guidelines. Cassiopeia talk 21:35, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Problem is the fact that we do not know what Ilias citizenship is, and even if we did it wouldn't be wrong to say that his Georgian and Spanish since he is ethnically Georgian and grew up in there, even Wikipedias nationality guidelines that you posted says that it is possible. BasilE99 (talk) 01:35, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Exceptions to MOS:ETHNICITY are meant for social and political activist to whom being a certain ethnicity is central to their notability. Not fighters who walk out to a certain flag. Nswix (talk) 01:55, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

It clearly says that a person, who has lived part of his life in a home country, and than emigrated to the other one is still eligible to hold both of the nationalities in the article. BasilE99 (talk) 13:00, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

As per MOS:NATIONALITY notable when he was resided in Spain. Cassiopeia talk 05:20, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

@Cassiopeia Ilia Topuria hasn't yet received Spanish citizenship. He got a promise from Prime Minister that his citizenship problems would be solved. Even the link you provided says that prime minister said he would SOON get Spanish ID Lemabeta (talk) 13:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Lemabeta The article mentions him receiving citizenship three times. Not once does it say it's not done yet. Nswix (talk) 19:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Ilia Topuria has resided in Spain for 12 years. This fact does not mean that he has the nationality. As you can read in the article I am sourcing below, Ilia Topuria has not yet started the nationallity official proceedings. To obtain Spanish nationality, a series of requirements must be met. He has publicly expressed his desire to obtain it. As of 29 February, officially he has Georgian nationality with residence in Spain. He also does not have a Spanish passport, because to obtain it, you must first have the DNI (National Identity Document). Source: https://as.com/actualidad/sociedad/por-ilia-que-topuria-no-tiene-el-dni-espanol-si-lleva-12-anos-viviendo-en-alicante-n/?outputType=amp El Caganer (talk) 14:33, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello editors,

Ilia Topuria has resided in Spain for 12 years. This fact does not mean that he has the nationality. As you can read in the article I am sourcing below, Ilia Topuria has not yet started the nationallity official proceedings. To obtain Spanish nationality, a series of requirements must be met. He has publicly expressed his desire to obtain it. As of 29 February, officially he has Georgian nationality with residence in Spain. Source: https://as.com/actualidad/sociedad/por-ilia-que-topuria-no-tiene-el-dni-espanol-si-lleva-12-anos-viviendo-en-alicante-n/?outputType=amp El Caganer (talk) 14:27, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

He also does not have a Spanish passport, because to obtain it, you must first have the DNI (National Identity Document). El Caganer (talk) 14:30, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

@El Caganer, Lemabeta, Nswix, and Caucasian Man: Hi I found many sources indicated the Spain Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez has awarded Topuria Spanish citizenship and also found many sources indicated T=the Spain Prime Minister promise Toupuria will receive his Spain citizenship. Before I go on, I apologies to those who participated in the discussion in the past, where I found sources which clearly indicated his was a Spanish nationality. Now it is clear of Toupria's nationality status.

My guess is that if Touporia hold Georgian citizenship (he was born in Germany and Germany will removed the citizenship if a person does not meet certain requirements which Touporia moved to Georgia and Spain assumedly did not meet the requirements and his Germany citizenship is annulled.) So if Touporia holds Georgia citizenship and Spain does not a treaty with Georgia to have dual citizenship, it might means Spain prime minister will do the exception to grant Touporia's Spain citizenship if Touporia still want to holds his Georgian citizenship. Well, the above, of course, is my thought which I have no proof of but speculation. But at least we know, he will obtain Spain citizenship at some point.

However, to said that as per Wikipedia MOS:NATIONALITY "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident" and "Isaac Asimov (c. January 2, 1920 – April 6, 1992) was an American writer

Per the above guidance, we do not add ethnicity ("Jewish-American") or country of birth ("Russian-born American"). These details can be introduced in the second sentence if they are of defining importance.

As of nationality is Georgia, but what do we put on the lead (opening/introduction section) since he is Georgian by nationality but permanent resident where when he was considered notable. Do we go by Spanish and Georgian MMA fighter or go by Georgian MMA fighter but indicate in second lead paragraph that he was notable since he was notable in Spain (change the wording as agreed by editors) until such time we know that he has "officially" obtained his Spanish citizenship. Suggestions besides above are welcome. Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia talk 02:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I say Spanish and Georgian. He represents both equally and evidently has both passports, so I don't think an exception to MOS:NATIONALITY is unwarranted.

Not to mention the headaches it will save me reverting it back and forth from one nationality to another everyday. Nswix (talk) 02:12, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Nswix I am good with your take on both Spanish (as the resident when he was notable where he didnt live in Georgia since 15 years old where he has competed in MMA yet) and Georgian but I doubt he has Spanish passport at the moment until he is officially a Spanish nationality. Thank you for your time in participated in this discussion and your contribution. Cassiopeia talk 02:21, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

This person has been citizen of Georgia his whole life. Even if he now receive Spanish citizenship from prime minister as gift, that does not overwrite everything. There is nothing "equal" between Spanish citizenship being thrown at you after you win championship and being a product of Georgian parents and citizen of Georgia throughout your lifetime. Also, still not clear if he even get Spanish citizenship or just promise from prime minister to get it.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 04:11, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

LeontinaVarlamonva it is not about overwriting but as per the info above especially resident in Spain when he was notable but as a Georgian nationality which he didnt live there since 15 y/o where he was not notable at the age nor competition in MMA - see MOS:NATIONALITY. Cassiopeia talk 04:17, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

This is all bureaucracy from my perspective. A wealthy country "purchase" somebody only after he wins championships for them and now we're seriously debating if he is their national or not. Many people from Eastern Bloc countries do not live in their homes for years for various economic reasons.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 04:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

LeontinaVarlamonva Do you have evident that Spain govt "purchase" Toupria? if so, pls provide independent, reliable sources. (Btw, I am not from Spain nor speak Spanish, or Georgian or have any relations with the subject or Georgia- just a regular editor). The point is what the Spain government do/did/ will do is not the subject of the discussion nor is our control or anything we are involving in. You can have your personal perspectives and opinions but this is Wikipedia and not a forum. Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia talk 04:29, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Most of the comments written here are surreal. Spain is a democratic country with its laws and an established constitution. The president of the government does not have the power or the ability to give or grant anyone citizenship. Topuria, having resided continuously in Spain for several years, can apply for citizenship. The problem is that he had not yet done it and has asked the president to speed up the deadlines that usually take even years. Topuria does not have any Spanish passport. Officially he has a Georgian nationality with residence in Spain. In the future, it will see. El Caganer (talk) 04:53, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I am Ok with that if only Georgia citizen is the only one state in the lead section. We dont state the residency in the lead section but can put that in the background section. Ok. so far 2 votes for Georgian MMA fighter in lead section. Will wait for a few days for other editors to comment. Cassiopeia talk 01:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

My vote goes for "Georgian MMA fighter" in the lead section. I also agree on putting the Spanish residency in the background section.

Note that all Georgian MMA fighters reside in different countries. Merab Dvalishvili and Giga Chikadze are based in the USA, but they are still Georgian. Caucasian Man (talk) 21:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@El Caganer, Lemabeta, Nswix, Caucasian Man, El Caganer, LeontinaVarlamonva, and Nswix:

Note that all Georgian MMA fighters reside in different countries. Merab Dvalishvili and Giga Chikadze are based in the USA, but they are still Georgian. Caucasian Man (talk) 21:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@El Caganer, Lemabeta, Nswix, Caucasian Man, El Caganer, LeontinaVarlamonva, and Nswix:

Ilia Topuria has his Spanish citizeship two days later after Spain Prime Mistery meeting with Toupria which he promised him of his Spanish citizenship, as it was announced in the Council Of Ministers during the press conference.

see source - (1) https://www.elespanol.com/deportes/otros-deportes/20240305/gobierno-concede-nacionalidad-espanola-ilia-topuria/837666430_0.html and

(2) https://www.abc.es/deportes/gobierno-concede-nacionalidad-espanola-ilia-topuria-20240305130039-nt.html

(3) Or you can listen to press conference of Council of Ministers in the YouTube Channel from the official Public TV of Spain, RTVE, where they announced the Spanish citizenship of Ilia Topuria - here at 6:35 onward - https://www.youtube.com/live/cOuWR5gIbvc?si=YToxX3_sKfaHwxe_&t=420 (for those who do not understand Spanish, pls click the "CC" - subtitle and click translate to the language of your preference on the video).

My guess, as per my thoughts on my previous messages above, is that the Spanish government fast track the process and gave the citizenship of some sort of (May be Sporting) outstanding merit despite that is no treaty from Spanish government to allow dual citizenship with Georgia.

So to conclude, We can safely say, in the lead section and in the infobox section we can put Topuria both of his nationalities. Thank you everyone for the discussion, participation, working together and helping each other. Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia talk 22:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 January 2022

79.150.245.34 (talk) 01:42, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

He is spanish

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:49, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Background

Moved back to Georgia at age 7 (from Germany). Moved to Spain at 15. Source is this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MivJ1FR7QKg around 4:20 46.242.15.115 (talk) 12:29, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

@46.242.15.115 exactly like the article says. Nswix (talk) 02:51, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Ilia Topuria's parents were refugees from Abkhazia before they relocated to Germany.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCPjntjqleY&t=227s Godorjuan (talk) 09:47, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2022

Change Ilia'sfight with Jai Herbert from "Lightweight debut" to "Lightweight bout," because it was a one off.

Also, please remove "return to featherweight" from his fight with Bryce Mitchell.

If you do not think it wasn't a one off, please cite your sources. Standard practice in Wikipedia is when a fighter has one fight in a different weight class, and is not making a permanent change, you write "Xweight bout," not Xweight "debut." His fight with Bryce Mitchell was not his "return to featherweight," it is his regular weight class.

Again, a citation is needed if you are aware of a permanent change to lightweight. 2607:FEA8:1F9F:BB00:40A5:D9D2:1920:E8C1 (talk) 20:55, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: I've been editing mma articles for years... I don't know about you since you're unregistered, but it seems not. I know all of the standards for MMA (actually helped create a lot of them). You're right to a point, however when a fighter makes their debut in a division, we always add it as debut. Even if it was just one bout. That's the correct form. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 22:39, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Nationality

Ilia Topuria is Georgian Please correct information (Topuria was born in Halle Westfalen, Germany to Georgian parents. At the age of seven he moved to Georgia with his family where he started practicing Greco-Roman Wrestling at school. At the age of 15 he moved to live in Alicante in Spain, where he started practicing martial arts at the Climent Club.) 176.221.191.139 (talk) 18:46, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Per MOS:NATIONALITY only list nationalities where subject has established themselves. And since Spain doesn't allow dual citizenship with Georgia, we just list him as Spanish. Nswix (talk) 20:01, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 February 2024

Change nationality to Georgian. He is of Georgian nationality living in Spain. Even in the UFC, he fights under the Georgian flag. Martinsexpress (talk) 17:51, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Per MOS:NATIONALITY only list nationalities where subject has established themselves. And since Spain doesn't allow dual citizenship with Georgia, we just list him as Spanish. Nswix (talk) 17:59, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Nationality

Some biased Spaniard who wants to appropriate other countries achievements keeps changing Georgian to Spanish. Merab Dvalisvhili is based in the US but that does not make him American. Ilia Topuria represents Georgia and he is Georgian. He officially represents Georgia in the UFC: https://www.espn.com/mma/fighter/_/id/4350812/ilia-topuria Thus, the the fighting community knows he is Georgian.

That's what https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS:NATIONALITY says: "Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability" The fact that Ilia Topuria is Georgian is very relevant to his notability, as he represents Georgia in the UFC like the above source indicates, and the whole fighting community knows that he is Georgian. So in conclusion, according to MOS:NATIONALITY, he is Georgian. I cannot make this more clear. The editors need to stop these disruptive edits and blocking people who put down credible sources and correct information. This is nonsense. Caucasian Man (talk) 19:26, 12 February 2024 (UTC) Caucasian Man (talk) 19:39, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

First of all this is Wikipedia and we edit as per Wikipedia guidelines and not otherwise and in regardless what the fighters/subject want to present a country/countries/whole world, (examples: Belal Muhammad is American in regardless how much he stated he represent Palestine, Aleksandar Rakić was born and notable in Austria, in regraless how much the editor and himself wants to represent Serbia, we put he is Austrian in Wikipedia and if when any sourced indicates Merab was an American when he was notable then we will change his article in Wikipedia that he is American) , we put the nationality when he was notable which is Spain as per MOS:NATIONALITY. By the way Spain does not have the treaty with Georgia to have dual citizenship. Pls read the message titled of this talk page "Citizenship". Cassiopeia talk 22:15, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

It seems like people are confusing heritage and nationality. He's Georgian heritage and Spanish nationality. It's not that complicated. Nationality can be interchangeable with citizenship. Heritage is where your ancestors are from. His parents are from Georgia, and it appears he's a citizen of Spain.--Rockchalk717 06:07, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

How do we determine this? Based on his passport or residence card? I'm thinking he should be a representative of Georgia based on official records.

Israel Adesanya represents Nigeria even though he lives in New Zealand, right? Marty2Hotty (talk) 23:03, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

He's confirmed to be a New Zealand citizen though, which is why his lead says he's "a New Zealand professional mixed martial artist" Nswix (talk) 23:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

In the UFC, Adesanya represents Nigeria. On Wikipedia, it lists Nigeiran first and then New Zealander. Ilia lives in Spain but is Georgian. What do we need here? Confirmation of passport and citizenship? Can't we just say Ilia represents Georgia and residing in Spain. It's fine to put Georgian/Spanish under nationality I think. Marty2Hotty (talk) 00:07, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Similar to Israel Adesanya, I think Georgian should be listed, but underneath, it can say Spanish. Adesanya lists Nigerian first and then New Zealander, which I am fine with. There is a Nigeria flag next to him in the UC. Georgia for Ilia. Marty2Hotty (talk) 00:00, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Marty2Hotty it can be in background section but not in lead as per MOS:NATIONALITY. (note:not in any fighter pages). Cassiopeia talk 00:44, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Ilia does NOT have Spanish Nationality. This is confirmed by himself here: https://twitter.com/pelunaton/status/1760725558114275347

You can hear him say it in Spanish, So listing him as a Spanish fighter would be wrong according to Wikipedia rules as well, since he does NOT have Spanish nationality! Please take care of this correctly, Spanish news websites should already be writing about this. Either way Ilia Topuria just said it himself. Bashiachukaa (talk) 18:09, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

As per MOS:NATIONALITY, it is based on where he was resident when he was notable which is Spain. Cassiopeia talk 23:43, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

That says about the opening paragraph, but the "Nationality:Spanish" thing would be simply wrong because he clearly does not have the Spanish nationality Bashiachukaa (talk) 09:02, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

As per MOS:NATIONALITY notable when he was resided in Spain. Cassiopeia talk 05:19, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Such a shame it came to this point...

Update the mma record like this:

|- |style="background:#bfd; color:black; vertical-align:middle; text-align:center; " class="table-yes2" |Win |align=center|15–0 |[[Alexander Volkanovski] |KO (punch) |UFC 298 |February 17, 2024 |align=center|2 |align=center|3:32 |Anaheim, California, United States |Won the UFC Featherweight Championship. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 06:01, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

it needs to be semi-protected instead. he's the new champ and it should be updated now Marty2Hotty (talk) 06:07, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:24, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I added a short summary to the body along with two additional sources. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 17:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for updating. I don't understand the controversy about him. He represents Georgia according to his UFC biography.

Please update that he won the Performance of the Night award in the career section, put it in the notes section of the "record" and update the "Championship and accomplishments" section indicating that he's the champion and that he won a performance of the night bonus. This information was announced, sourced and is currently missing.

It was not the best time to lock this page after an important event. Marty2Hotty (talk) 23:01, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 18 February 2024

Ilia Topuria is now the UFC Featherweight champion as of February 18th, 2024. 2607:FEA8:E0A5:6A00:2D98:2E66:BC27:F71F (talk) 06:37, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I tagged User:Daniel Quinlan who fully protected this page. We have requested that this page be changed to semi-protected or removed altogether. Marty2Hotty (talk) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

The article is fully protected because people were edit warring over his nationality. Since being protected, little or no effort seems to have been made towards resolving the content dispute. If someone were to make an edit request that actually follows the edit request guideline by including a complete and specific description of the request, so that an editor unfamiliar with the subject matter could complete the requested edit immediately then someone could update the article. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 17:33, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Updated my response, see below. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 17:44, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

There is WP:DRN#Ilia Topuria. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:36, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

That is excellent, thanks. I literally just woke up to a flood of notifications and I haven't had any coffee yet. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 17:43, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)  Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:36, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 18 February 2024 (2)

change "As of January 23, 2024, he is #3 in the UFC featherweight rankings." to "he is the current undefeated UFC Featherweight Champion and the first Georgian to win a UFC championship." DavitZh (talk) 07:26, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done I worded this slightly differently, keeping an "as of" date instead of using "current", and omitting the bit about being the first Georgian - I am not going to add that through protection since edit warring over nationality was exactly what caused the page to be protected in the first place. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:36, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Why has the page not been updated

It's been 4 hours and no edit requests or edits by admins to update Topuria's record have been approved or happened. What is going on? Needs to be changed ASAP this is ridiculous. PeppaPigIsATaxFraud (talk) 09:15, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I do not know who "fully" protected this article. It is quite ridiculous. Semi-protect is sufficient. Marty2Hotty (talk) 14:46, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Your level of expectations of the responsiveness of Wikipedia administrators is itself not in accordance with reality. Wikipedia admins are volunteers and under no obligation to handle any specific task, and relatively few of them choose to handle fully-protected edit requests. From my experience as an editor for seven years this was handled relatively quickly as requests go.

I agree Daniel Quinlan's protection was excessive, but these complaints are not constructive. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:24, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Full protection is definitely not a preferred option. It's concerning that edit warring about Ilia's nationality is persisting on related articles like List of UFC champions, but I'm hopeful that protection can be lifted soon on this article if the discussion at WP:DRN is productive. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 18:26, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Understood. Thank you for the explanation. Marty2Hotty (talk) 00:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 18 February 2024 (3)

Lethweimaster (talk) 11:12, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I want to edit the subject's latest victory at UFC winning the world title.

|- |style="background:#bfd; color:black; vertical-align:middle; text-align:center; " class="table-yes2" | Win |align=center|26–4 |Alexander Volkanovski |KO (punch) |UFC 298 |February 17, 2024 |align=center|2 |align=center|3:32 |Anaheim, California, United States |Lost the UFC Featherweight Championship. |-

Deactivating as duplicate. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:24, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

UFC champion

On February 18, 2024 Ilia Topuria knocked out Alexander Volkanovski to claim the UFC featherweight belt at UFC 298 at the Honda Centre. (Heroeswithmetaphors) talk 16:37, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 18 February 2024 (4)

He is the current UFC Featherweight Champion as of February 17th, 2024 Fmarrar (talk) 17:33, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done above. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:36, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 18 February 2024 (5)

1) Add "Performance of the Night." after "For the UFC Featherweight Championship." on notes
2) Add "This fight earned him another Performance of the Night award. (PLEASE COPY THE FOLLOWING CODE FROM THE EDIT BUTTON) after "This victory marked the end of Volkanovski's four-year reign as the featherweight champion."
3) Under "Championships and accomplishments", update the Performance of the Night section to "Three times" instead of "Two times"
4) Update the text after "Performance of the Night" (Two times) from "Jai Herbert and Bryce Mitchell" to "Jai Herbert, Bryce Mitchell and Alexander Volkanovski". After the two sources, add the third source (PLEASE COPY THE FOLLOWING CODE FROM THE EDIT BUTTON)

Please let me know if you have questions. This will add the "performance of the night" bonus to his page and will source it. Thank you.Marty2Hotty (talk) 00:18, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:48, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Protected edit request on 19 February 2024

Who wrote the lead? It's shameful. Please copy this sentence: "He currently competes in the Featherweight division in the Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC), where he is current UFC Featherweight Champion." and delete "As of February 18, 2024, he is the undefeated UFC Featherweight Champion." 78.180.56.51 (talk) 06:49, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Care to elaborate on how my wording is "shameful"? * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:41, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

If you want, you can read the articles of other UFC champions. "As of February 18, 2024, he is bla bla champion" is ridiculous. (List of UFC champions)

"He/she currently competes in the blablaweight division of the Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC), where he/she is the current UFC blablaweight Champion."

Simple. As of February 19, 2024, the lead of this article should be changed. 78.180.56.51 (talk) 19:41, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Deactivating edit request as page is no longer protected. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 05:57, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 19 February 2024 (2)

change Nationality georgian to spanishgeorgian 90.167.98.127 (talk) 08:01, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done This is exactly why the page is protected. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:41, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 19 February 2024 (3)

Ilia Topuria's parents were refugees from Abkhazia before they relocated to Germany after the war. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCPjntjqleY&t=227s Godorjuan (talk) 10:02, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

What makes this specific detail worth including? * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:41, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

That's how everything started, with the war his family was ethnically cleansed from Abkhazia they had to flee to Germany were he was born. Lemabeta (talk) 16:46, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Deactivating edit request as page is no longer protected. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 05:57, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 19 February 2024 (4)

Under his picture his MMA record haven't been changed In notes with his recent fight with Volkanovski, should be stating "Won the UFC FTW Championship, not "For the UFC FTW Championship"", with the Performance of the Night. 109.245.192.216 (talk) 17:02, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 19:29, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 19 February 2024 (5)

Ilia Topuria officially has Spanish nationality.

The infobox claims to only have the Georgian one, which is incorrect. DrakeXper (talk) 20:24, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done We will not be making any changes to the nationality until a clear consensus is reached. See WP:DRN#Ilia Topuria * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:14, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 19 February 2024 (6)

Thanks for the response, I didn't know there was an open discussion about his "nationality".

I have a somewhat different request. About his "representation" as a fighter:

In the Lede, it is specified that Topuria, as a UFC fighter, exclusively represents Georgia. However, that is not entirely true, and the UFC's own official account uses both countries for him (Georgia and Spain).

I think that statement either should be deleted (as unnecessary) or at least adding Spain too. Thanks for your patience. DrakeXper (talk) 21:22, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

crazy that this is continuing. They were discussing whether he has spanish citizenship. If proof comes out on that, they will add it. I think the current text suffices. I think many Spanish people came on here to edit his page which led to it being locked. Marty2Hotty (talk) 01:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Unlike Ilia (He has Spanish nationality), I'm not even Spanish. Crazy indeed. DrakeXper (talk) 13:56, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Turns out he doesn't have Spanish nationality

https://x.com/pelunaton/status/1760725558114275347?s=20 Lemabeta (talk) 15:10, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Deactivating edit request as page is no longer protected. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 05:57, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 19 February 2024 (7)

For Performance of the Night (three times) after Championships and Accomplishments, the UFC298bonus reference should be moved to the end, after the "< small >" tag because it is making that source smaller. This is just a small request. Thanks in advance.

BTW, it is indeed crazy that Spain vs Georgia is on here. Is it a big problem to include both Georgia and Spain? Marty2Hotty (talk) 01:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done the source change. I personally will not be making any edits in any way related to his nationality while the page is protected in the spirit of m:The Wrong Version. Another admin may see differently. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 21 February 2024 (8)

Please add ** UFC Featherweight Championship (One time, current) to the Championships and accomplishments section under *Ultimate Fighting Championship Rcpilot9 (talk) 19:30, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:17, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Spanish citizenship

He was granted Spanish citizenship officially today. https://twitter.com/mma_orbit/status/1762482981136974155. Should this page be updated to reflect this? Marty2Hotty (talk) 15:04, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

I say yes. We just change it to Spanish and Georgian. (*edit* secondary source if needed) Nswix (talk) 18:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

@Nswix Weren't you saying that according to MOS:NATIONALITY, it should be mentioned only with which he became popular? So that means he should be written as Georgian only according to the logic you previously used. Lemabeta (talk) 18:13, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

@Lemabeta I'd argue that according to MOS:NATIONALITY there's actually a stronger case for him being Spanish than Georgian, but for the sake of appeasing everyone, we can mention both. Nswix (talk) 19:33, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

@Nswix But you were saying only nationality with which he became popular needs to be mentioned. He became popular with Georgian citizenship, while being alongside it ethnically Georgian. I am just following your logic, after he is granted Spanish citizenship, both should be mentioned but before that only Georgian needs to be mentioned. Lemabeta (talk) 07:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Just to clarify: he wasn't granted citizenship today. It's pretty clear that the prime minister promised him that will happen soon, therefore confirming that as of now he is Georgian indeed. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 01:00, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

source? Isn't he officially Spanish as well now? Marty2Hotty (talk) 17:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Marty2Hotty This says he is, about three times. But who knows, most journalists just parrot whatever they hear without actually looking into it. Nswix (talk) 17:54, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

good enough source Marty2Hotty (talk) 18:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 28 February 2024

Please add following information in the background section, right after where it talks about his parents. This is pertinent information because of numerous questions that exist online and in newsmedia.

" Topuria speaks Georgian fluently, as well as a bit of Mingrelian. "

LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 06:17, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I believe his quote "I would have to be killed if i didn't know Georgian, Georgian man must know Georgian language, i also know little bit of Mingrelian" needs to be mentioned as well Lemabeta (talk) 07:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Deactivating edit request as page is no longer protected. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 05:57, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 29 February 2024

I recommend removing the Personal Life section, as it only contains a non-notable event with limited coverage and little encyclopedic value. If we included every insignificant out-of-cage brawl or fight an MMA fighter has been into, articles for most of them would be likely be over 100 pages long. nearlyevil665 07:51, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Deactivating edit request as page is no longer protected. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 05:57, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

languages

@LeontinaVarlamonva and Nswix:

Hi, Pls discuss the content inclusion in the talk page here to avoid edit warring. Thank you. Cassiopeia talk 04:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Cassiopeia talk 04:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@LeontinaVarlamonva granted I don't speak Georgian, so I have no way if verifying these sources, but I have to lean on the side of caution and remove anything I can't find a reliable source for, vs using links from blogs I've never heard of and what someone says is a reliable source. Especially when that companies own page is just a laundry list of controversy after controversy associated with it.

Additionally, every fighters languages are listed in Personal Life, from Francis Ngannou to Fabrício Werdum and Mirko Cro Cop. Nswix (talk) 04:41, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Nothing stopping you from using google translate like I do with multiple languages. Imedi is a major television. Quality of their wikipedia article does not change that or is relevant. Wikipedia source should not be assessed based on whether wikipedia has good article on it. Many things have crappy articles.

The "background" section is pretty much personal section because it explain a person's background. He speaks these languages because of his heritage, so makes sense to include in background section next to his parentage. --LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 01:10, 5 March 2024 (UTC

Hi LeontinaVarlamonva and Nswix , First of all, to use independent, reliable has nothing to do with the quality of the content of an article, but it is the Wikipedia core policy to use independent, reliable source for the reason of verification. There are many sources which does not fit into the above required because Wikipedia project is edited by millions of volunteers who edit according to their own free time and articles of their choosing. For such many low quality article and sources are not fully rewritten and resource or removed of the unsourced content. Secondly, pls note that not all info can be translate 100% right using Geogle translate. Thirdly, one of the pages of your source (dont remember which one) which I checked can not be translated before they looks like a text in the form of a images/photos which that can not be translated. Thirdly, not all major TV channel is considered reliable, such as United State Fox news is reliable but not the politic news. In addition, all blogs/social media/official sites, any sites that is related to the subject is considered not reliable and/or not independent. To say all that, I am not saying all your sources are not reliable, but it is not easy for me to say they are 100% reliable/independent. However, the info to be added into the article (we just need one source for the languages he speaks) but we always put the info in the "Personal section" for MMA fighters (your can check as there are about 2k MMA fighters pages in English Wikipedia) as the "Background section" is all about the subject background ranging from where the subject was born, he heritage, family info if it is relevant to his career when he stated training, the reasons he started training, how he progress from one discipline to the other or/and transitioned to mma. Lastly, pls discuss in civil and polite manner with communicate with other editors as we are all here to work together and help each other to improve Wikipedia articles.

I thank both of you for your contribution to Wikipedia and I hope putting the info in Personal section would be the choice since it is the majority decision here. Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia talk 01:40, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

References

Ilia Topuria has Spanish nationality since today, 5 of March.

Ilia Topuria since today has the Spanish nationality, it's been announced in the Council Of Ministers during the press conference.

Sources, One of many in Spanish language at the moment: https://www.elespanol.com/deportes/otros-deportes/20240305/gobierno-concede-nacionalidad-espanola-ilia-topuria/837666430_0.html and https://www.abc.es/deportes/gobierno-concede-nacionalidad-espanola-ilia-topuria-20240305130039-nt.html

Also the press conference of Council of Ministers in the YouTube Channel from the official Public TV of Spain, RTVE, at the minute 7:00 where they announced the Spanish citizenship of Ilia Topuria https://www.youtube.com/live/cOuWR5gIbvc?si=YToxX3_sKfaHwxe_&t=420

Edit: I’m adding the BOE that has published today as a source from the decision made yesterday at the Council of Ministers; https://boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-2024-4387

Agusbargon (talk) 13:04, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Agusbargon Good day and thank you for the Spanish sources for the above information. Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia talk 22:18, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Cool. Hope this puts an end to this. Interesting that it took winning a title for him to be granted that dual citizenship. Marty2Hotty (talk) 01:11, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

President of Georgia awarded Ilia Topuria with Order of Honour yesterday, 21 March

Georgian President Salome Zourabichvili honored Ilia Topuria by awarding him with the Order of Honour. Topuria was recognized for his significant role in promoting UFC in Georgia, as well as his notable achievements in the field.[2] Godorjuan (talk) 23:08, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Godorjuan Already in the body text on the "Personal life" section. Cassiopeia talk 23:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)