Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Figure Skating/Archive 8

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New Programs Shown in Pro-am Competitions

A professional skating competition is a rare sight nowadays. ISU sanctions only two pro-am events, held annually in Japan. Nevertheless, some skaters show new programs in these competitions. Would it make sense to add the information on these programs in the skaters' pages? I would appreciate your input. Seameetsmountain (talk) 11:06, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

IMO they should be included (but I admit that I usually don't watch pro-ams so I'm not likely to get around to helping with this). Hergilei (talk) 12:49, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the input. Usually I follow pro-am competitions sanctioned by ISU. If there is no objection from others, I will add some information to those pages. Seameetsmountain (talk) 14:43, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Auto-assessment of article classes

Following a recent discussion at WP:VPR, there is consensus for an opt-in bot task that automatically assesses the class of articles based on classes listed for other project templates on the same page. In other words, if WikiProject A has evaluated an article to be C-class and WikiProject B hasn't evaluated the article at all, such a bot task would automatically evaluate the article as C-class for WikiProject B.

If you think auto-assessment might benefit this project, consider discussing it with other members here. For more information or to request an auto-assessment run, please visit User:BU RoBOT/autoassess. This is a one-time message to alert projects with over 1,000 unassessed articles to this possibility. ~ RobTalk 22:28, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Website on Infobox figure skater?

Should there be a |website= parameter on {{Infobox figure skater}}? See Template talk:Infobox figure skater#website parameter?. TJRC (talk) 23:24, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Usually, the link to the official website is listed at the "External links" section at the bottom of an article. Wikipedia has a template for the link, Template:Official website. In my opinion, providing additional link at the infobox is redundant. Seameetsmountain (talk) 11:52, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

2017 Worlds photos

Hi, folks. I'm not a member of this WikiProject, but I have just been attending the 2017 Worlds in Helsinki and I took a few thousand photographs, which I've been slowly editing and posting as slideshows on my blog. All of the images are available at full size, unwatermarked, under Commons-compatible terms (I haven't decided on a specific license yet) -- so if there's a photo in one of these slideshows that you're interested in, to illustrate either a concept or a skater's biography, please let me know and I'll upload it (once I get back home). 121a0012 (talk) 22:35, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Hi, here's a list of skaters who may need a photograph for their infobox (in some cases, their article hasn't been written yet but the skaters have probably qualified for a page, looking at WP:NSKATE). Any photos that you decide to make available at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:2017_World_Figure_Skating_Championships will be greatly appreciated!

Hergilei (talk) 00:45, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Expect to see some uploads later this weekend. 121a0012 (talk) 03:22, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
Well, it took a bit longer than expected, but I've now identified usable photos of all of the mend's and ladies' singles skaters you requested. Most of them are from bows but I've included a few action shots as well. Please feel free to edit the descriptions as you see fit; generally I've used the ISU's spelling, which seems to be devoid of diacritical marks, and otherwise I don't necessarily know the proper skating terminology to describe some of the things photographed, so you experts go at it! There are one or two cases where it's possible that I've misidentified a skater; hopefully none of those were included in this group of uploads. (And since I have photos of all the singles skaters, if there's anyone else you'd like some photos of, I'd be happy to oblige.) 121a0012 (talk) 01:31, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Now I've added the pairs you requested as well. I have one photo of Simonen/Penasse that consistently fails to upload, which is unfortunate as it's the only photo I have that clearly shows his face. 121a0012 (talk) 02:34, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Excellent, thank you so much! Don't worry about any possible errors. I'll start working on adding your photos to the skaters' Wiki pages. Hergilei (talk) 18:41, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Please feel free to request renames for anything that I misidentified. Also, just to close the loop, I did not take photos at either dance event. 121a0012 (talk) 03:50, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I was finally able to upload the third Simonen/Penasse photo File:Emilia Simonen & Matthew Penasse (2 of 3).jpg. Not sure why it failed the first three attempts; maybe somebody fixed a bug behind the scenes. 121a0012 (talk) 01:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Women in Red online editathon on sports

Welcome to Women in Red's
May 2017 worldwide online editathon.
Participation is welcome in any language.

(To subscribe: Women in Red/English language list and Women in Red/international list. Unsubscribe: Women in Red/Opt-out list) --Ipigott (talk) 12:23, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

RFC on sports notability

An RFC has recently been started regarding a potential change to the notability guidelines for sportspeople. Please join in the conversation. Thank you. Primefac (talk) 23:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at NSPORTS

Hello all. In an effort to finally resolve the never-ending and annoying GNG v SSG issue, I've proposed a revision of the NSPORTS introduction. You are all invited to take part in the discussion. Thank you. Jack | talk page 06:20, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement!

Hello,
Please note that Choreography, which is within this project's scope, has been selected as one of Today's articles for improvement. The article was scheduled to appear on Wikipedia's Community portal in the "Today's articles for improvement" section for one week, beginning today. Everyone is encouraged to collaborate to improve the article. Thanks, and happy editing!
Delivered by — MusikBot talk 00:05, 30 October 2017 (UTC) on behalf of the TAFI team

Wiki Loves the Olympics

Hello! The Winter Olympic Games 2018 started today and we have organized a wiki contest to improve the articles related with the Winter Olympic and the Paralympic Games. This is a multilingual project and is on Meta. You can participate till March 25. The link to the meta page is m:Wiki Loves the Olympics 2018. And don't forget that like Coubertin said "The important thing in the Olympic Games is not to win, but to take part". Thanks. --Millars (talk) 16:42, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

CfD nomination of Category:Cup of Russia

Category:Cup of Russia has been nominated for renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. RA0808 talkcontribs 15:40, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Ice dancing question

Hi WikiProject Figure Skating, I've noticed that biographies of ice dance couples are currently separated out into each half of the pairings. Would it be beneficial to merge the biographies into 1 article? My concern is that most of the content on these pages are essentially duplicated, as the results of ice dance pairs are linked. I've created a merge proposal for Alex Shibutani and Maia Shibutani, but I realized that I should bring my concern here also. Thanks, Natg 19 (talk) 08:21, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

I think the best way to handle this is to have more articles that are about notable ice dancing duos, with duo members having their own articles only if they have achieved notability as individual skaters (or for some other independent reason) or as part of more than one duo. In the article for an individual ice dancer, any sections or subsections pertaining mainly to a notable duo should contain only a brief overview, with a section hatnote directing the reader to the corresponding section in the duo's article, which would be more comprehensive. Right now, a significant portion of Wikipedia's content on ice dancing couples amounts to redundant content forking. For example, the articles Jayne Torvill, Christopher Dean, and Torvill and Dean all exist. The individual skaters' pages both contain a section titled "The professional years 1984–1998, 2006–" and the duo page has a section "The professional years 1984–1998". These three sections, at about 6,000 words each, are substantively identical. The only real differences are that the Dean article lacks prose descriptions for the duo's "Song of India" and "Oscar Tango" dances, while the duo article omits their "Hat Trick" dance (possibly an error) and has a few descriptive embellishments on "Song of India." (There are also formatting, punctuation, and spelling differences.) Other differences are actually indicative of lapses and shortcomings in article maintenance, because there is no compelling reason for a given fact to have differing or contradictory accounts: a dress's color is identified differently, an apparent error; the articles disagree if one of the performances has an extant video recording; and the duo article omits their credits from 2006 onward. The only legitimate, correct difference I could find between these sections in the skaters' articles is that the Dean article contains a single solo credit not attributed to Torvill, when he guest-judged a reality show without her. There is no need to have all this content duplicated. It should be in the Torvill and Dean article, and then be summarized in the skaters' articles, which would also include any information pertinent to them as individuals. --DavidK93 (talk) 16:52, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
This seems like a good proposal to me. Just a note for your example article, actually, the credits from 2006 onward is in the duo article under the "Dancing On Ice performances (2006–14)" subheading (and is actually more well written than the skaters' articles). Natg 19 (talk) 06:45, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

New animation, plus 2018 Worlds photos

I went to Worlds again and took about 6,000 photos. If there are any skaters WP Figure Skating would like to see photos of uploaded to Commons, let me know here and I'll try to oblige. (I don't take photos of ice dance so I can't help with those.) As a test, I also created an animated GIF showing Ryom and Kim doing a twist lift, File:Ryom & Kim 2018 SP twist lift.gif. I'm open to creating more of these showing various elements (and maybe finding some that were better focused or have less motion blur), so I'll take suggestions for that as well if folks think it's useful. I can't promise that I have multiple frames of every skater or every element. 121a0012 (talk) 03:02, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject collaboration notice from the Portals WikiProject

The reason I am contacting you is because there are one or more portals that fall under this subject, and the Portals WikiProject is currently undertaking a major drive to automate portals that may affect them.

Portals are being redesigned.

The new design features are being applied to existing portals.

At present, we are gearing up for a maintenance pass of portals in which the introduction section will be upgraded to no longer need a subpage. In place of static copied and pasted excerpts will be self-updating excerpts displayed through selective transclusion, using the template {{Transclude lead excerpt}}.

The discussion about this can be found here.

Maintainers of specific portals are encouraged to sign up as project members here, noting the portals they maintain, so that those portals are skipped by the maintenance pass. Currently, we are interested in upgrading neglected and abandoned portals. There will be opportunity for maintained portals to opt-in later, or the portal maintainers can handle upgrading (the portals they maintain) personally at any time.

Background

On April 8th, 2018, an RfC ("Request for comment") proposal was made to eliminate all portals and the portal namespace. On April 17th, the Portals WikiProject was rebooted to handle the revitalization of the portal system. On May 12th, the RfC was closed with the result to keep portals, by a margin of about 2 to 1 in favor of keeping portals.

There's an article in the current edition of the Signpost interviewing project members about the RfC and the Portals WikiProject.

Since the reboot, the Portals WikiProject has been busy building tools and components to upgrade portals.

So far, 84 editors have joined.

If you would like to keep abreast of what is happening with portals, see the newsletter archive.

If you have any questions about what is happening with portals or the Portals WikiProject, please post them on the WikiProject's talk page.

Thank you.    — The Transhumanist   10:56, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

RFC: XXXX–XX year format

There is an RFC related to the year format of the titles of many figure skating articles at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Year_range_for_two_consecutive_years.—Bagumba (talk) 10:08, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

FYI, the conclusion was for the move to be reverted. For more info, see 1, 2, and 3. Thanks, 15zulu (talk) 10:29, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Need input

I'm wondering if this project is at all active anymore. Since this summer, I've improved 11 articles about figure skating (and currently working on the 12th). (See User:Figureskatingfan/Sandbox 4 I've put requests for advice and assistance several times, but have had very little response. I'd really like it if someone did response, since I'm a non-skater and I'm not sure that I'm describing, paraphrasing, and summarizing well. For example, Compulsory figures just passed its GAN, and the reviewer suggested that I get more help with describing how circles are made. If no one responds, I'll just move forward anyway, and take it as a free pass to do what I, even with my limitations as a non-skater, think should be done. My goal is to have as many articles improved as much as possible before the next Olympics, especially ISU Judging System, so that people can turn to Wikipedia to get accurate, up-to-date, well-written information about figure skating. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 00:03, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

While there's plenty of people editing figure skating pages, with a few very dedicated users, the WikiProject itself is relatively inactive. Also the majority of editors, are figure skating fans and have little to no skating experience themselves. Regardless, probably the best way to get this project active is by posting things on this page & pointing others to this page. Cheers, 15zulu (talk) 00:14, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for your response, 15zulu. I thought I'd put it out here, and then contact editors/skaters individually to ask for assistance. That's always the best way to get the word out, anyway. I get it about skaters not having the time to edit WP; they'll probably too busy practicing those quads, anyway. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:20, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

RM: Ice resurfacer

A requested move discussion is taking place at Talk:Ice resurfacer, and your input would be welcome. Mathglot (talk) 08:05, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

A new newsletter directory is out!

A new Newsletter directory has been created to replace the old, out-of-date one. If your WikiProject and its taskforces have newsletters (even inactive ones), or if you know of a missing newsletter (including from sister projects like WikiSpecies), please include it in the directory! The template can be a bit tricky, so if you need help, just post the newsletter on the template's talk page and someone will add it for you.

– Sent on behalf of Headbomb. 03:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Portal:Figure skating

Portal:Figure skating, a page which you created or substantially contributed tothis project is interested in and may support, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Figure skating and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Portal:Figure skating during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:33, 10 May 2019 (UTC) Nomination copied by Robert McClenon (talk) 15:57, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Grand Prix of Figure Skating question

Hello. I was wondering if medalists in events held before the Grand Prix of Figure Skating was created would pass WP:NSKATE. As each of the events were held years before the Grand Prix was made in 1996, (i.e Skate America, Skate Canada), I'm not sure if they would count under criteria #4 Have competed at a Grand Prix of Figure Skating event. Thanks! --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 21:59, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Request for information on WP1.0 web tool

Hello and greetings from the maintainers of the WP 1.0 Bot! As you may or may not know, we are currently involved in an overhaul of the bot, in order to make it more modern and maintainable. As part of this process, we will be rewriting the web tool that is part of the project. You might have noticed this tool if you click through the links on the project assessment summary tables.

We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you? We have collected all of these questions at this Google form where you can leave your response. Walkerma (talk) 04:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Structure of general articles

For the past almost two years, I've been at work re-editing many figure skating articles. The most significant work I've done, thus far, are the articles about figure skating disciplines: Compulsory figures (which has become the only FA about figure skating), Ice dance, Single skating, and Pair skating. I suppose that the main Figure skating article will eventually be added to the list. Currently, these articles are structured similarly, but the order varies. For example, some discuss competition elements first, and history/background later; some are reversed. I tended to either follow the structures that already existed, or place them depending upon content.

It has occurred to me, though, that these articles should have the same format. I would like to propose the following structure for these articles:

1 History/background
2 Competition segments
3 Competition elements/requirements
4 Rules and regulations
5 Other (as needed)

Please discuss, and then perhaps we can place our consensus on the main project page. Thanks, all! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:22, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

It's been over 7 days, and no discussion, so I'm going to go ahead and make the proposed changes to the articles listed above. I'll also include this format on the project page. Thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:02, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Draft:Catherine Carle

Dear editors: Here's a draft about a figure skater that has been waiting for review for some time.—Anne Delong (talk) 19:00, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I've done some additions and cleanup, but it clearly needs more work before moving to article space. Much of the article lacks sources, to a degree unacceptable for a WP:BLP. TJRC (talk) 19:54, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
I've declined the submission and notified the submitting editor. In addition to the referencing issue, the skater does not appear to meet the requirements of WP:NSKATE.. TJRC (talk) 21:26, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Discord

Hey all, I hope everyone is safe and healthy. My name is HickoryOughtShirt?4 and I'm a member of WikiProject Ice Hockey. I was wondering if there was any interest in starting a WikiProject Sports channel on Discord? There's quite a few of us who are interested in sports, and I think it would be a good idea to help the WikiProject recruit more members. You guys can join us through here.HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 00:07, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Capitalisation

I wondered why axel jump doesn't use capitalisation given that it's named after a person of that name. Indeed, that was discussed on the article's talk page in 2010 without it coming to a conclusion. What that discussion reveals is that many other jumps are also named after people and the issue is therefore broader than just one article. I've had a brief look at this talk page's archive but could not find a discussion on this matter. So, is it deliberate that the name parts of jumps aren't capitalised? Should we have a discussion to make it a deliberate choice, or change the practice, whatever the outcome may be? Schwede66 06:33, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, the ISU capitalises all jumps, but U.S. Figure Skating capitalises jumps named after people. There seems to be no standardization of the capitalisation of jumps. It varies, even among the sports press. In the articles I've been working on, because of the lack of consensus here and other places, it's been my practice to not capitalise. Personally, I think that we should leave it up to the individual editors, and when there's a controversy, that it gets discussed and consensus rules. It's my philosophy not to get into minor controversies like this, so if you or anyone wants to go through articles and change capitalisations, I won't get all bent out of shape. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:12, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Well, looky here what I found! [1] Evidence that U.S. Figure Skating capitalizes jumps (and other elements) that are named after people. I wonder if we should adopt it for this wikiproject, except for the instances in which its policies violate WP MOS. I'd also include references to female skaters as "women" and not "ladies" because as I've already gone on the record, using the more archaic term is also a violation of WP policies and core values. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:12, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Good spotting. So there are only four jumps that would need to be renamed? If so, we could wait a few more days. If others chip in and support this also, that'll be good enough. If there are dissenting voices or no further comments, I suggest we put a formal mass move request up. That way, it'll be sorted once and for all. Are there other editors active in this project? Schwede66 08:22, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
I'd be willing to help. Isn't there some sort of bot that could help us make the changes? Also, please chime in about adapting the U.S. Figure Skating document for our purposes. I volunteer writing an essay to that effect if folks want it. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:28, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
AWB is a good tool for this. We may not need an essay; let's wait a few more days and see whether others chime in. We can then decide what to do. Schwede66 04:33, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Aren't there a same kinda issue in gymnastics related to jumps and leaps too ? Best regards Migrant (talk) 14:26, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
I dunno. Personally, I don't know that much about gymnastics. Migrant, do you know how they solved the issue? Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:48, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Not sure, but this is a link to the Diamidov with a line of images to how it is done. One example of a named bodily movement, I know there are more named moves, jumps, leaps and so on in Gymnastics, but this one was the first that came to my mind. I'm not that into Gymnastics either and my main sport of interest is speed skating and football (US: Soccer), but since I'm a sports enthusiast and a sucker for good sportsachievements. I've heard of this, and that was also the first I've found with some text about it on wikipedia. Best regards Migrant (talk) 22:05, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Right. There hasn't exactly been a flurry of activity by a good number of editors on this issue. Above, I was talking about a mass move request, but that's of course not what we need. As the named part is always (?) the leading part of an article name, the names are always capitalised anyway. What's needed is agreement that usage within sentences sees the names capitalised. What I had considered doing is to start a request for comment (RfC). But since there isn't disagreement here, what might be easier is to simply start capitalising use of the phrase in articles and see what happens. If there isn't any resistance coming from that, we'll just carry on. If there is resistance, this would add to this discussion. If that were to happen, we'll start an RfC. One way or another, it'll sort itself.

I've picked Axel jump and will start changing usage; 282 articles link to it. In the edit summary, I will make reference to this discussion. We shall see what will happen. Schwede66 06:36, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Yah, I think this is a good plan, Schwede. Thanks for the start; I know it's a big task, even with AWB. I agree that jumps named after persons should always be capitalised. I'm in the middle of something else at this time that I'll hopefully finish today or tomorrow; then I'll start a style essay in one of my sandboxes. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 August 1#Template:Figure skating competition 6.0

 You are invited to join the discussion at wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 August 1#Template:Figure skating competition 6.0. --Trialpears (talk) 13:07, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Style guide

As per previous discussion on this talk page, I went ahead and created a style guide for writing figure skating articles. I put the draft in one of my sandboxes: User:Figureskatingfan/Sandbox 5. Please discuss and contribute as needed. (Let's use the talk page over there in order to centralize discussion.) I especially want folks to look at the prose and if it's comprehensive enough. I think that once consensus is reached about its content, it could be a good tool for those of us who write about figure skating on Wikipedia. I look forward to any and all feedback. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:15, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Excuse the delay; have had a busy patch and then was away for a few days of tramping (as we say; probably known as hiking to you). I've given your draft a copyedit; feel free to reject any of my suggestions. Here are some additional thoughts:
  • "discuss the style advice on the WikiProject Figure Skating discussion page" Those discussions would normally happen on the talk page of the style guide. It's ok to have this happen on the project page, but in that case, I would redirect the style guide's talk page to the project page to avoid ambiguity as to where discussions should be had.
  • The section "Lead" is an orphan. You aren't giving style guidance but it's a maintenance task. I suggest you move that to the heading "Tasks" on the project page.
  • Similarly, your note on linking would be better suited to "Tasks" than the style guide.
Your work is excellent! Schwede66 19:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks, especially for the feedback. Hope your tramping was fun! ;) Will address your comments below. Do you think it's ready for publication? If so, I'll move it over.
  • When we move the document from my draft space, we'll redirect discussion then.
  • I removed the "Lead" section, as per your suggestion. Also the note about linking. Both are in the project page's "Tasks" section.
  • Thanks for the copyedit, especially the silly typos and grammar errors. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:23, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
I reckon it's ready! Schwede66 05:35, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
It's published! Please, everyone and anyone, discuss any changes and/or additions. I think it will help us a lot. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:09, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
Forgot to include the link. Here's the shortcut: WP:FS STYLE. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:15, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

RfC about ice dancer biographies

Should ice dancer biographies have "combined" team pages for significant pairings?

I have noticed that many ice dancers have individual pages that are essentially WP:REDUNDANTFORKs of each other - for example, mentioning the same information about ice dance seasons and their competition results. I noticed that there is an article for Torvill and Dean, but I do not know if this is a good "precedent" of a combined team page that can be followed. Natg 19 (talk) 00:32, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

  • Comment Sigh... no. Again, Torvill and Dean are an extremely unique circumstance. Sure, people will say "Papadakis and Cizeron" or "Virtue/Moir," but that doesn't mean they should be partnered on Wikipedia! Members of ice dance teams are individuals in the same way that members of the U.S. Women's Soccer Team are individuals. Especially after their careers in ice dance have come to a close, ice dancers become even more different. The argument that the main, and to a large extent, sole, advocate for such a merge largely relies on the Torvill and Dean argument. As one can pull from just a simple read to the introduction to the page. They are huge cultural and figure skating icons who really revolutionized the sport. No other ice dance team has ever come close to their impact, not even Virtue and Moir. Furthermore, the average English person knows Torvill and Dean or has at least heard of them; a good chunk of Americans have never heard of Meryl Davis nor Charlie White. The comparisons simply cannot be drawn, and they're Olympic champions! Though the Shibutanis are indeed Olympic medalists and are extremely successful ice dancers, they didn't have that large of an impact on the sport or on American culture. Therefore, a merged page, or even just a page for the team, is completely unnecessary. I rest my case. Really anyone who is familiar with the sport would likely agree. This is just getting ridiculous. Though the merge was made with good intentions, it really just doesn't make sense. Lilydog945 (talk) 04:19, 20 September 2020 (UTC).
  • Comment What User:Lilydog945 just said. I agree that to start the precedence of ice dancer having merged articles as has been suggested in disrespectful towards the individual dancers and towards the discipline of ice dance, even if the editor who suggested it didn't intend it as such. No one would ever make the same kind of suggestion about a member of a male bobsled team or a college basketball team. So no. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:57, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
@Figureskatingfan: I am being convinced that a "merger" of the ice dance partner articles may be incorrect. However, what do you think about creating "group" articles for some notable dancer pairs, and splitting out their career information there (as I did in the Davis and White article)? I mean no disrespect to the athletes, but I am concerned about Wikipedia's policies on content forking, which seems to be happening for many ice dance teams. Is there a good way for the individuals to be properly represented, without having much of the content being duplicated? Natg 19 (talk) 07:12, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
From the Wikipedia notability guideline: "A decision to cover a notable topic only as part of a broader page does not in any way disparage the importance of the topic." Deciding whether or not to have standalone articles is not about being respectful towards the subjects of those articles. As for bobsled teams and college basketball teams, it's simply not true that no one would make such a suggestion. There are a huge number of members of both kinds of teams who don't have articles while the teams do. The Jamaica national bobsleigh team has a page. Among its founding participants, Devon Harris (who is also an author and philanthopist) and Chris Stokes (who is also an author and sports executive) have fleshed-out pages. Dudley Stokes and Michael White have stubs. Freddy Powell does not have an article. Only a handful of players on the 2019–20 Wake Forest Demon Deacons men's basketball team have their own pages. (And this remains true going back to past years, but with slightly increasing numbers because the players have had more time to achieve notability.) --DavidK93 (talk) 22:55, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
I would oppose this as well, for similar reasons I previously stated. As Jasper states below, ice dancers, even though they're part of a team, have differences that can be emphasized in their individual articles. In other words, there are ways to avoid content duplication, although some of it can't be avoided. It hasn't been an issue before, so there's no reason to make it one now. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:18, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
It's been an issue all along. Anyone who has an idea about improving Wikipedia is welcome to bring it up--especially if it hasn't been brought up before. As for avoiding content duplication, is there an example of skater articles where it was, in fact, avoided? I'd like to see this as a guide for improving the Shibutani articles. I appreciate Jasper's insight into the idea that the articles could be improved this way, but as a non-expert I'm interested to see more about how it would be done. --DavidK93 (talk) 23:00, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose this kind of merging. I hail from the skating world myself, and can say with certainty that ice dancers, and indeed any member of a skating group of any size, has their own individual traits, upbringing, and history, especially those with partner changes. In general they are not redundant forks of each other. The Shib sibs may be an extreme case due to being siblings, and thus sharing a lot more than other pairs, but I personally know ice dancers who skate together and yet otherwise have nothing to do with each other.--Jasper Deng (talk) 09:33, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Support on a case-by-case basis. Ice dance team articles should not exist to the exclusion of individual ice dancer articles. But if two ice dancers have competed as a team, and a significant amount of article content is duplicated between the two articles, then at least the sections about their partnership should be merged. If the skater has individual notability, his or her article would cover the information about that individual, and sections about their time with the ice dancing team would be summarized with a hatnote directing the reader to the more robust article or article sections about the team and its results. (And note that, even though two individuals who compete as an ice dancing pair will have their own individual biographical information, that information may not pertain to their notability; creating a separate article just to detail their personal lives could be undue weight if the main substance of both articles is still their shared athletic history.) In the specific case of the Shibutanis, the two articles are overwhelmingly identical; there already are not standalone Wikipedia articles about Alex Shibutani and Maia Shibutani, nor do I think there is significant potential for there to be such articles given the currents facts of their lives and their shared notability. Instead, as a result of a redundant content fork, there are two nearly identical articles about Alex and Maia Shibutani; one is titled "Alex Shibutani" and the other is titled "Maia Shibutani." The articles should be merged and retitled so that Wikipedia will have a single, well-titled article about the ice dancing team of Alex and Maia Shibutani, a notable topic. If either of them has or achieves individual notability, there should still be an article about the team to cover their competition history and results, but also an individual article that avoids verbatim repeating of the team information. Broadly, there could be three basic structures:
  • Two notable ice dancers formed a notable team. Like Torvil and Dean. The team would have an article. Each dancer would have an article, with sections about their partnership being summaries with hatnotes linking to relevant sections in the team article.
    • If only one of the dancers merits a standalone article, the other dancer's biography can be covered briefly in relevant sections of the team article.
  • Two ice dancers without individual notability formed a notable team. Like the Shibutanis. Only the team would have an article. Information about the dancers as individuals would be covered briefly in relevant sections.
    • If it helps in dealing with skaters who had multiple partners, there can be a list article for skaters who don't have standalone articles, and wikilinks can lead to that brief content when needed.
  • An ice skater with individual notability participated in a team (ice dancing or pairs) that lacks notability. Like Kristi Yamaguchi and Rudy Galindo. Each skater has an article, and their time as pairs competitors is covered in each article. In this case, the content is substantially nonidentical, as Galindo's article focuses on factors in his life leading into and out of that focus for him, while Yamaguchi's article is a more technical examination of their competitive results and skating style. But with such brief content about fully resolved past events, a redundant fork would not be of great concern.
--DavidK93 (talk) 21:51, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
@DavidK93: Not to be crass about it, but this is not at all the way reliable sources organize information about pairs skaters or ice dancers. Official ISU databases use individual person pages. Figure skating is, more so than other sports, an individual one. Even among highly coupled pairs like the Shib sibs, each partner has a distinct role to play and each article should be focusing on that role. In pairs skating especially, the man plays a vastly different role from the woman. Medals in pairs and ice dance are awarded to the individuals, not the pairs; each skater gets their own medal (have you watched a medal ceremony?). For this reason, having one article on a given pairing is not going to be conducive towards emphasizing this individuality. This distinction is less for synchronized skating and ice theater teams, since the roles are less fixed and specialized, and results for those groups are organized by group and not individual member thereof.--Jasper Deng (talk) 22:08, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
And if that's the case, and there is reliably sourced information about these aspects of Alex's and Maia's athleticism, it could be a good basis for content in individual articles about them. Right now, neither article contains information on this topic. I would likely be more effectively persuaded if you could present an example of what the article content might look like. But I want to be cognizant of the fact that you are not obligated to make such article improvements for your argument to be taken seriously. Assuming good faith, and that this is a type of article content that could be added, I'm more open to the idea of individual ice dancers having standalone articles. But I stand by the position that the large amount of shared information should be included in a team article, rather than repeated in two skater articles. In the case of the Shibutanis, this influences me to suggest that a new team article be split from one of the existing articles, rather than merging the two articles. The redundant content would be moved into the new article and deleted from the standalones. --DavidK93 (talk) 22:34, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
The other issue here is both ice dancers and pair skaters often tend to have multiple partners throughout their career; for example, Aljona Savchenko (who's a pair skater) has had success with two partners. Does that mean that we need to create articles for both pairings? That's untenable. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:29, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
It's really not untenable. In fact, very much the opposite, it's simplistic and convenient. The content for the articles is already written. Just split it out from her article into two new articles, and delete the redundant content from Szolkowy's and Massot's articles. In all three skater articles, replace the content with summaries, ideally focusing on the individual skater (their athleticism, etc.). If the content about either pair ever needs to change, it only needs to be edited once, instead of twice. --DavidK93 (talk) 22:43, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose In Tennis Wikipedia, double players each get their own article even if the data is redundant. Even if the players are siblings and have similar backstories, they still aren't combined into one article. I feel the same should be done with ice dancer pairs. oncamera 22:21, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
And why is it good that way? -DavidK93 (talk) 22:45, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
Tennis players can have multiple partners and so can ice dancers, most obvious reason. Should every ice pairing get its own page? It's fine to just update two pages for each skater, don't get why it's a better idea to have a new page for every unique pairing as stated above. Only significant and notable double teams in tennis earn that right such as the Williams Sisters or the Bryan brothers, but even then the individuals still have their individual pages. Tennis article editors don't have this same issue as you when comes to just copy-pasting data on two pages. oncamera 23:00, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
If Wikipedia editors wish to document this amount of information about an ice pairing, then, yes, it should get its own page. I'm confused by the logic that there are these extensive amount of encyclopedic information about topics that are not themselves notable. Copy-pasting data between two Wikipedia pages to support a redundant content fork is detailed as inappropriate in the guideline WP:CWW. --DavidK93 (talk) 23:11, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
It is possible to transclude a section of one page into another, then you wouldn't need to copy-paste it. But still, the skaters should have their own separate articles. oncamera 23:25, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
Thank you. I was about to suggest transclusion, having just been acquainted with it. --DavidK93 (talk) 23:27, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
It seems like we do have combined articles for notable tennis doubles teams, e.g. Bryan brothers (maybe they are the only doubles team with such a page). I have been swayed that for notable ice pairings, they should get their own page, but still maintain individual pages, with content about the individual. Perhaps we could use transclusion. Natg 19 (talk) 00:13, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, I just noticed that the Bryan brothers were mentioned earlier. Natg 19 (talk) 00:16, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
There are also a badly sourced-article about the mens double team in tennis of the Woodies, and there are two long success figure skating team with the inclusion of the female skater Irina Rodnina and 2 different male skaters along her side.
So what about the famously named icehockey strong relationsships in this list of ice hockey line nicknames. Why aren't there more articles about them ? Best regards Migrant (talk) 18:03, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
@Migrant:, I'm not sure what your point is here. Do you support merging or combined articles, or are you against them? Natg 19 (talk) 00:46, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Russian Figure Skating Cup

Hello members of WikiProject Figure Skating, I think the article in the headline needs some attention. I have the following questions:

  • Is this article relevant?
  • Are there (copyright) issues? The "creator" is blocked in ru.wiki and commons.wiki!
  • Should the article be rewritten from scratch?

--Kallichore (talk) 01:01, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Request for Comment on SSN at WP:Notability (sports)

There is a discussion on SSN (sport specific guidelines) at RFC on Notability (sports) policy and reliability issues. Feel free to go there and post your comments. Cassiopeia(talk) 00:59, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Proposed change in sports notability policy

A proposal is pending that would prohibit the creation of sports biographies unless supported by "substantial coverage in at least one non-routine source". In other words, articles supported solely by statistical databases would not be permitted, and at least one example of WP:SIGCOV would be required to be included before an article could be created. Also, article creation based on Wikiproject Guidelines would be curtailed. If you have views on this proposal, one way or the other, you can express those views at Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)#Fram's revised proposal. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:02, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

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