Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tel Aviv/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 02:21, 12 February 2008.

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Tel Aviv

previous FAC (00:19, 27 January 2008)

Check external links

Nominator: Flymeoutofhere (talk) 14:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Support as nominator: Following a previous failed FA nomination, the issues brought up have been addressed, and I feel the article is now fully ready for FA status.--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 14:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

• Comment
  • There is some incorrect dash usage.
    • Already fixed--Flymeoutofhere (talk)
  • Some refs are missing publishers.
    • Have added all publisher now--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 11:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Some measurements are missing conversions. Epbr123 (talk) 15:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment - could you possibly give me some idea as to where this applies? Thanks--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 16:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I've fixed the dashes. Every reference has to give the publisher; for example, the publisher of this is Madtchi.com. Also, these statements will need dates to prevent them becoming outdated - "It is currently undergoing redevelopment" "that currently plays in the lower divisions" "the mayor, who is currently Ron Huldai" "will open in the next school year". The article would also benefit from a third-part copyedit. Epbr123 (talk) 16:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Fixed the date issues and references. How do I get a third-part copyedit. Which measurements need the converstions--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 11:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Kilometres need mile equivalents, and °C need °F equivalents; using the templates at Template:Convert will make it easier. To get a copyedit, you can list it at Wikipedia:WikiProject League of Copyeditors/Requests, or search for individual editors who are good writers and preferably will have an interest in the subject. Epbr123 (talk) 12:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The copyedit request has been made and I have converted the figures--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 13:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

There are still some refs missing the publisher. Epbr123 (talk) 19:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Ooops - they were mostly just typos in the cite template - I have fixed these now--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 09:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

• "it is exceeded in size by Jerusalem, the modern-day capital of Israel" Can we avoid the phrase "the modern-day capital of Israel"? It isn't exactly relevant to the article, and it brings us into POV territory, since that claim is disputed by much of the international community. We probably could find an undisputable form of words, but perhaps simpler to say nothing here than to complicate the lead.--Doc^g 00:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I think that's ok now - just took out the bit about modern-day capital--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 11:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
• I'm picking up dead links, please fix.--Doc^g 00:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• Article looks very good, and very close to meeting the FA criteria. I've made a few copyediting changes, mostly related to grammar & spelling, and moved a few of the sections to conform to WP:CITIES guidelines. Please see my comments related to the 'dubious' tags for some areas that still need clarification. Dr. Cash (talk) 20:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I have addressed those tags--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 18:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Comment

  Tel Aviv is known as "the city that never sleeps" due to its nightlife and 24-hour culture.

  I'd remove that one. We usually refer to New York as the 'city that never sleeps' and the reference supporting it does not seem to be reliable enough for a featured article. Squash Racket (talk) 13:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Ive found a better reference for that - Tel Aviv is referred to in this way so I dont think it should be removed just because another city is in the same way. Thanks.--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 18:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not yet satisfied that the prose is of the required "professional" standard. A few samples:
  • "Tel Aviv is Israel's economic hub, with many high tech firms maintaining offices or research and development facilities". Hi-tech, or if "high" is used, at least hyphenate it. With + -ing is clumsy and, strictly speaking, ungrammatical. So some firms have R and D facilities but not offices? More seriously, the causality doesn't work: why does the presence of R and D facilities make the city an economic hub? What a bombsite.
  • Again, a problem of logic: "Tel Aviv is the country's cultural capital, and a center of music, theater and the arts." "and"? So being the cultural capital wouldn't mean that it's a centre of m, t and the arts by default? The A plus B doesn't work properly here; recast.
  • Etymology — The third "Tel Aviv" has to be in italics or double quotes; see why?

I think I have addressed these three issues.--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 21:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Needs a good massage by someone new. Tony (talk) 14:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It's quick to address the solutions I put to you here; but there were mere examples of why the whole text needs copy-editing. Please try to find someone new to the article for this purpose: an eye for logic is required, as well as for other micro-issues of language. Tony (talk) 12:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• Later comment—The prose is much better, for sure, and with a little more work (by yet another person) it may pass 1a. I have concerns over 1c, too.
  • I looked at "Demographics" and had to make a few changes.
  • Why are non-breaking spaces inserted after most of the numbers? Undesirable gaps between words may result, where there's little advantage in preventing "50,000" and "unregistered from being split by a line-break. Please address.
  • There are many valuable links, so why did I have to remove links to such everyday words as "port"? Please check through.
  • "Built on sand dunes, farming in Tel Aviv was not profitable, and maritime commerce was centered in Haifa and Ashdod. Instead, the city gradually developed as a center for scientific and technical research." Um ... when?
  • The city is considered by Newsweek to be one of the top 10 most technologically influential cities in the world." Is Newsweek sufficiently authoritative (who wrote it, anyway—that would help a little, but not enough)? It's like citing a daily newspaper—some journalist's opinion—which may or may not have tinges of commercial influence. Be careful; some may accuse the article of peacockery over such claims and sources.
  • "Israel's center of high-tech"—last item is not a noun, but appears to perform that role here.
  • Odd thematic treatment (i.e., the grammatical point of departure): "Many major routes of the national road network pass through or end in Tel Aviv, a transportation hub." Better: "Tel Aviv is a transportation hub: many major routes of the national road network pass through or lead to the city." Surely this issue is the same in Hebrew ...?
  • Ref 86: "proxy error". No authors appear in the reference citations. Are all sources reliable? I'm concerned. Tony (talk) 11:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• Comment I agree entirely with Tony. The copy has been worked on and added to sentence by sentence without too much attention to the bigger picture. It needs a thorough copy-edit by an experienced editor. Here are some examples

Redundancy: Despite the fact that it is less than a century old ("Less than a century old"?).

Inelegance: the old city walls were destroyed due to increased security allowing for expansion.

Brochurese: As well as having a vast array of museums for tourists to visit, and quarters to explore, many tours of the city are available in different languages focusing on various aspects of the city.

Clarity: the Jewish community of Jaffa, with it Jews with a nation-building mind-set.

Conversions absent: of 51.8 square kilometers & 7,445 people per square kilometer.

--ROGER DAVIES ^talk 12:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• There is currently a request in place for a copyedit. Hopefully this will resolve these issues once complete.--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 17:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I think a copyedit has now been carried out by a new user. If you could have a look, perhaps this is ok now?--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 17:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Have you re-contacted editors who asked for a copyedit? Since they didn't lodge an Oppose, they wouldn't know to revisit unless you ask. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I've had a look at the copy-edit carried out by Finetooth and while he has done an outstanding job in very little time, the copy still needs improvement. Quite apart from Maralia's comments, it still has an unconverted 7,445 people per square kilometer (why is this being ignored?). Also, I now notice that the Religion section makes no reference to mosques though it does mention churches. The Local Government section still doesn't talk about support services and who provides them. It would be good to see these issues addressed methodically. --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 10:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose I'm sorry but this still needs a very thorough copyedit. Examples:

• drop the first comma in the very first sentence
• "The White City" - this is a nickname and should be in quote marks the first time
• "the New York Times" -> "The New York Times"

• Better, but it's The New York Times, not the New York Times. Maralia (talk) 15:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• "On April 1, 1917," - link full dates please
• "Tel Aviv continued to grow in 1926–28 but suffered an economic setback in 1927–30." - these date ranges are somewhat illogical as they seem to contradict each other
• "When Jaffa was taken on May 14, only few of its 65,000 Arab residents remained." - 'only few' is awkward; 'few' would work on its own
• "On November 4, 1995, Yitzhak Rabin, Israel’s prime minister was assassinated" - reword "On November 4, 1995, Israel's prime minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated"
• "Elections are carried out by every adult who has been living in the city for over one year" - nonsensical; every adult may be eligible

• Better, but is there really no citizenship requirement, only residency? Maralia (talk) 15:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• "more likely to be around 10 °C (50 °F) to 15 °C (60 °F)" -> usually between...and...
• "The Azrieli Center, composed of three buildings, one square, one triangular, and one circular, usurped that title." - this reads as a list of four things; reword "...of three buildings—one square, one triangular, and one circular—usurped..."
• "The city is considered one of the top 10 most technologically influential cities in the world." - this needs a citation

• Thanks for providing the citation, but high tech is a rapidly changing field, and I must challenge using a ten year old citation to support a present tense statement. Maralia (talk) 15:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• "Tel Aviv is home to the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange, (TASE)," - drop the first comma
• "and Pinchas Zukerman (born in Tel Aviv), have all appeared" - drop the comma
• "Maariv, Israel's second most popular tabloid is also published in the city," - add comma after tabloid
• the word "municipal" should not be capitalized unless it is in an organization's title
• Some words are overlinked: Jaffa, Bauhaus, Jerusalem, Meir Dizengoff, metropolitan area, Neve Tzedek, Ramat Aviv, Ramat Gan, Sde Dov Airport, secular, Tel Aviv Central Bus Station, White City (Tel Aviv)
• Please do link to: Palestine, Nazi
• All three links in the 'See also' section are redundant; they are already present within the main article text
• External links need some cleanup: there are three links to photography by one person at one website; the official website is already linked in the infobox; it's not appropriate to external link to all the individual institutions' websites from the city's wiki entry.

I have addressed everything up to this point--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 10:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• Citation format is lacking: many publication names are not italicized; some authors' names are not last name, first name; some cites have no retrieval date

I did not look at the sourcing for the entire article, but the sourcing for some of the more exceptional claims does not appear to meet WP:V/WP:RS:

• "is the oldest port in the world" - this hefty claim needs a really hefty citation. It currently has none.

• This is not a sufficient source; it states Jaffa "is claimed to be the oldest port" (emphasis mine). Maralia (talk) 15:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• "Tel Aviv has the world's largest collection of such buildings" - the citation for this claim is an Israeli travel site

• The citation added for this looks okay, but the link is broken. Maralia (talk) 15:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• "Israel has the highest number of museums per capita of any country, three of the largest of which are in Tel Aviv" - this is cited to two an Israeli travel site and the Israeli consulate

Done--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 11:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

You've added a citation, but it's another Israeli source. Maralia (talk) 15:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a good article, but it needs some work to get to FA. Maralia (talk) 05:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

You did a great job of addressing many of my concerns quickly. I've left comments above about issues that remain. I am particularly concerned about the sourcing; the exceptional worldwide claims (oldest in world, largest collection in world, highest number in world) need rock solid, non-COI sourcing. Maralia (talk) 15:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.