Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tel Aviv/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 00:19, 27 January 2008.

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Tel Aviv

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Nominator: Flymeoutofhere (talk) 17:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm nominating this article for featured article because following a peer review, I believe that it is of FA standard.Flymeoutofhere (talk) 17:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comments - I can see some copyediting issues straightaway. The first sentence as 4 commas in it. Try something like:

• 'referred more commonly to as Tel Aviv, is the second most populous city and former provisional capital of Israel. With a population of 384,600, it is exceeded in size by Jerusalem alone' - this also gets note on provisional capital in lead. Lead needs to be bigger too.

*I'd note Jaffa had been popualted for 4000 years in lead, just a one-liner. Though the city is new, there have been people there a long time.

*..Israel's globally oriented economy, and is the anchor of the area popularly known as "Silicon Wadi" - bolded bits need to be reworded. ?jargony?

• ...due to its vibrant, modern, cosmopolitan character. - vibrant is subjective. So is 'character' really. Can we rephrase this? a bit better

Is that any better?--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 12:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

*Para 3 of Early History seems better suited to go in Etyomology section as it refers to the early use of teh name which is different (?) to now.

Sorry - I cant see why?--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 12:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Is this still applicable?--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 19:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

On second thoughts, don't worry about it. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

• ..Soon after, thousands of the 16,000 Jews of Jaffa moved north... - could be more specific here. Could mean anything from 2000 to 15000.

I'll try to find this out although it was a gradual movement--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 12:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

OK This is now done--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 16:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Still looks the same to me. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I changed it a bit - if you read on it says that by 1934 the population was. Is that ok?..--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 12:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

*...replaced by a yuppie population. - erm, I wouldn't use the word 'yuppie' - just say professional or whatever the demographic is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Casliber (talk • contribs) 12:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Done--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 12:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

More to come. I will change a few no-brainers and post some other queries here. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for this - I have changed all these things. Any ideas on what else could go into the lead? Thanks--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 12:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Lemme think on that one -below are more fixes.cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC) *I do recall the 'city that never sleeps' tag being pretty prominent and I'd stick it in the lead, mentioning the connotation with its lively social life somehow.cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:27, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

OK Ive added this in--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 16:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, here's more:

• combining a Mediterranean feel with culture and complexity. -arrgh - sounds like a travel brochure. Should be able to lose this but section will need tweaking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Casliber (talk • contribs) 12:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Done--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 12:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

is this better now?

Historically, Tel Aviv struggled to find a niche economic position. -again, sounds vague. I know what you mean (sort of), can you word it differently. economic role? input? cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Ive changed this--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 12:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Interim comment - I think the article has a sound base, but somehow comes across as a little bare to me. I am comparing it with Jerusalem which is twice the size. This doesn't need to be that big but some more on early history - from the article the name was orignally to be a satellite (?) of Jaffa only (?). Maybe some more on rich and poor neighbourhoods - is there urban sprawl or is it well-demarkated and contained? Dizengoff has loads of stuff named after him, is there other stuff worth mentioning about his (or anyone else's) influence on the city's development? Also, making stubs for the redlinks is always a good look, especially if you think it's a no-brainer that tehy definitely will have articles on them at some stage. Light rail is mentioned - is this because rtaffic is congested? Worth mentioning.

Fianlly I am not big on israel's history but has there been debate on the city's official role i.e. was there ever a move to make it capital, by any within or outside the country?

Also, was the choice of name controversial? Were there any alternatives? The website lists Ahuzat Bayit as the original name. Looking better though.cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

This is doable, but will need a bit of work. Also, I could see more examples of copyediting needed but I need to sleep..g'night.cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Ive expanded the history section loads and have done some other bits on the article addressing the points you have made.--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 16:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I've struck the ones I think have been done. Also, you need citations for statements in para 2 of Education, para 1 of Topography and climate, and the Museums section. It is improving though, good work thus far. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - Ive addressed these citations, have fixed the population numbers and tourism section. I dont think this article should get into the debate about Tel Aviv as hte capital of Israel. Obviously some think it should be and not Jerusalem although Jerusalem is the capital city and Tel aviv was just temporarily on a factual, historical level. Also, what website do you refer to when you say that there are alternativs. THanks --Flymeoutofhere (talk) 13:33, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose As one of the peer reviewers, I think this nomination is premature and the time given to peer review (just over 24 hours) too short. This has the makings of a very good article but the text still needs work by a good copy editor (redundancies, inelegancies, strange constructions). It also needs to sound more like an encyclopedia and less like a prospectus or holiday brochure in tone. Additionally, the article has major info gaps so it fails on comprehensiveness. There's nothing, for example, on Tel Aviv's commercial infrastructure, which needs its own section. Another gap is the local governance, nothing on the city council, city representatives, how often they're elected etc. Again this needs its own section, say dove-tailed into the districts' one. there's --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 19:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• And now I think of it, perhaps something on the founders. They must have been people of drive and vision but remain anonymous. I also seem to remember reading about the construction problems Tel Aviv has as it's built on sand. Anyhow, expansion, I think is the key. --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 19:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

OK - Ive addressed those issues of where it read like a travel brochure and have also written about the local government. The founders are now in the expanded history section, and if you can remember where you found about the difficulties in construction, please let me know because I havent found anything. You said there should be a commercial infrastructure section - isnt this covered in economy - what needs to go in this? Many thanks.--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 20:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. Concerned about comprehensiveness, references, and some language. On comprehensiveness, please include information on the city government. Currently there is a list of mayors section but how many people are on council? are elections at-large or wards? what is the city gov responsible for? is the city part of a larger political unit? and so on. Also, with the History section I would prefer to more on recent history (1960s-2000). The "Terrorism" sub-section is awkward - the other History sub-sections describe time periods "Early history", "Mandatory period", "Modern times"...how does "Terrorism" fit into this progression? And it is just a list of attacks (might make a better table) but what was their effects (social, economic, etc.) on the city? On references, some are not very authoritative on their subjects. For example, Yahoo! Travel being used for the Early History, an interview with a tour guide for Religion. In Demographics, the paragraph starting "According to December 2001 statistics..." has no footnote indicating what statistics (compiled by whom?). While a few other encyclopedias are referenced, there doesn't seem to be any published books used to inform the article [1] And on the language, it could do with some clean-up, like:
  • "pleasant springs and autumns" - use a more quantitative adjective
  • "Tel Aviv boasts on average over 300 sunny days a year." - people boast about things, perhaps use "experiences"
  • "Many see the best time of year in Tel Aviv as April..." - specifically say who, like "According to xxx, many see the best..."

--maclean 20:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• OK. Thanks for your time and comments - they are very much appreciated. I have spent a lot of time growing the history section and addressing many of the points you have outline above.--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 20:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

OK - the history section is now much larger and a politics section has been created. The recent history is also larger. Ive taken out the Yahoo reference and fixed all the broken ones. Books have now been quoted also. Its very hard to tie efects of terrorism in - any ideas would be appreciated. Many thanks--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 20:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

• The reference provided for the "According to December 2001..." paragraph deals with the age distribution (providing the median age and comparing to the District or national average would be good, too) but where does the average monthly wages come from? Thank you for providing a "Government" section for the article. Perhaps it can be extended by saying some of the services that city government provides. I'm not familiar with how the Israeli government system works but some examples could be fire protection, police (no mention of police or crime yet...well other than the terrorism sub-sub-section), provision of drinking water, sewerage, etc. --maclean 06:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Please review the unresolved external links. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

OK Ive gone through and fixed these --Flymeoutofhere (talk) 20:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, struck. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:28, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

• Hi. I think I have almost all of the issues outlined now.--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 19:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.