Talk:Vlado Chernozemski/Archive 1

Archive 1

Please stand back for a moment ...

... until I figure out how to fix the cut-and-paste move. No editing the article or moving right now please. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:56, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Serbian police?

There weren′t any Serbian police in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. There were police of Banovinas. --77.46.250.95 (talk) 17:11, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Bulgarian revolutionary

Bulgarian origin and nationality.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jingiby (talk • contribs) 12:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Irrelevant question on the Bulgarian state constitutional status

Please, stop pushing here the irrelevant topic on the Principality of Bulgaria's constitutional status. Here is such article called Principality of Bulgaria. You are free to edit it, including this one - Tarnovo Constitution. Thank you! Jingiby (talk) 19:41, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

POV

Someone put Macedonian reference and said that on the Macedonian reference writes that Cernozemski is Bg. Where did you see it man??-- MacedonianBoy  ^Oui? 16:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Also in the reference that you hace put says this: -- MacedonianBoy  ^Oui? 16:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)Така овој настан ќе остани вечно запаметен во сеќавањето на македонците како еден голем настан од борбата за својата слобода. This is your proof that he was BG?-- MacedonianBoy  ^Oui? 16:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You mean proper? Explain a bit!?-- MacedonianBoy  ^Oui? 17:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

He was born in XX but he is not BG! -- MacedonianBoy  ^Oui? 17:41, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Nice rants, but keep on the subject. The guy was born outside of the region of Macedonia. How can he be "Macedonian" then? --Laveol ^T 17:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, he was not born outside the borders of the region of Macedonia, the region is not the same as the country, it extends into Bulgaria. Zhmr (talk) 13:27, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually, you don't have a sufficient knowledge of the geography of this area. Jingiby (talk) 14:06, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

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Macedonian revolutionary?

Chernozemski was born in Bulgaria, in the village of Kamenitsa, now part of the town Velingrad. It is located at the western end of Chepino Valley, part of the Rhodope Mountains, in Thrace, not in Macedonia. His father, Dimitar Kerin, and his mother, Risa Baltadzieva, were both from the same village of Kamenitsa. Look at the sources above. He was part of the Mihailovists' faction of IMRO, as they were known, who identifyied themselves closely with Bulgaria. Mihailov was a Bulgarophile and ultra right-wing politician who had engaged IMRO in terrorist activity in Yugoslav and Greek Macedonia. Mihailov had become leader of IMRO in 1927 and initially under his leadership the organisation sought to incorporate Macedonia into Bulgaria. Chernozenski himself was Bulgarian nationalist. Chech here:Violette Nozière: A Story of Murder in 1930s Paris, Sarah Maza, University of California Press, 2011, ISBN 0520948734,p. 230. As born in Bulgaria and Thrace Vlado was Bulgarian and Thracian in national and respectiveliy in regional sense. As part of the IMRO he was Macedonian freedom fighter. On the other hand Macedonia had long been a target of Bulgarian irredentism and even in 1941 Most of the Slavophone inhabitants in all parts of divided Macedonia, perhaps a million and a half in all – had a Bulgarian national consciousness at the beginning of the Occupation; and most Bulgarians, whether they supported the Communists, VMRO, or the collaborating government, assumed that all Macedonia would fall to Bulgaria after the WWII. Tito was determined that this should not happen. Look at: "The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949, Christopher Montague Woodhouse, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1-85065-492-1, p. 67. More, the question as of whether a Macedonian nation actually existed in the 1944 when a Communist Yugoslavia decided to recognize one is difficult to answer and some observers argue that even at this time it was doubtful whether the Slavs from Macedonia considered themselves to be a nationality separate from the Bulgarians. Check: The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world, Loring M. Danforth, Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-691-04356-6, pp. 65-66. Last but not least, after 1944 former Mihailovists were persecuted in SR Macedonia by the Belgrade-controlled authorities on accusations of collaboration with the Bulgarian occupation, Bulgarian nationalism, anti-communist and anti-Yugoslav activities, etc. The numbers of dead "traitors" and "collaborators" due to organized killings of Bulgarians during the Bloody Christmas and afterwards, however is unclear, but some sources put the number of the victims to 1,200. There are a lot of sources confirming the facts above. Keep in mind, that Macedonian historiography is higly controversial and according to neutral historians in your country the past was systematycally falsified to conceal the truth, that most of the well-known Macedonians had felt themselves to be Bulgarians.( Yugoslavia: a concise history, Leslie Benson, Palgrave Macmillan, 2001, ISBN 0333792416, p. 89) Provided by you source from Church in History Home Page - www.churchinhistory.org is neither reliable nor clear in the use of the term Macedonian. Jingiby (talk) 15:54, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

The source clearly indicated as Macedonians or Macedonian revolutionary, why delete the source ... there are no edit war, but the abuse of the rules of Wikipedia, in other words, Jingiby implement censorship which makes it impossible to hear other opinions ... or the views of other scholars and historians ....--Dalco26 (talk) 19:49, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but, as Jingiby indicated above, there is simply no way he could have been an ethnic Macedonian. He was born outside the region and joined the struggle as a Bulgarian. I do not know why Mr Barton, about whose scholarly activities I found nothing, writes this, but it is plainly untrue. Hence, I will remove the entire sentence. --Laveol ^T 09:08, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Jingiby and Laveol are quite right, and I can see no room for argument here. Best, Apcbg (talk) 12:51, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

According to Stoyan Christowe he was born in Macedonia proper, in the Shtip region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chakalarov (talk • contribs) 13:07, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Sources

The source " Istoricheski pregled, tom 43, broeve 1–6, Bŭlgarsko istorichesko druzhestvo, Institut za istoriia (Bŭlgarska akademiia na naukite) str. 49." regarding Crnozemski telling Christowe he was from a village called Patrik is Shtip does not indicate that this was a conspiracy theory and it is misleading readers therefore this source is disputed. From what i can make out from this source is that the book just mentions that Crnozemski was born in Kamenica which goes in line with common Bulgarian histography, however Christowe was around when Crnozemski was alive and had met him in person which tends to be a more reliable source than a book written in 1987. Dimitar Galev also indicates that Crnozemski was born in Patrik in his book "Beliot Teror" User:Chakalarov→User:Chakalarov 14:37, 5 February 2018.

Primary sources as Christowe are not reliable. The sourcse " Istoricheski pregled, i.e. book published by the Bulgarian Academy of sciences, says: Последното си име Владо Черноземски заимствува от известния войвода Спиро Келемана, водил чета в Щипско против османските поробители... Поради дълбоко законспирираната му дейност личността на атентатора остава забулена в тайна. Самият Черноземски, отдал се изцяло на борбата за освобождението на Македония умишлено посочва, че е роден на 15 март 1897 г. в с. Патрик, Щипско, след чието опожаряване от сърбите през Междусъюзническата война уж се озовал с бежански, поток в с. Каменица, Пазарджишко. Дори показва на другарите си от четата родната си къща до черквата на с. Патрик. Истинското име на атентатора е Величко Димитров Керин, роден на 26 октомври 1897 година в с. Каменица от където е коренът му по бащина и майчина линия. Rough translation: "His last name, Vlado Chernozemski, has borrowed from the famous vojvode, Spiro Kelemanov, who led a cheta in the Shtip region against the Ottoman conquerors... Due to his profoundly conspirative activity, the bomber's personality remained a secret. Chernozemski, himself, committed to the struggle for the liberation of Macedonia, deliberately pointed out that he was born on March 15, 1897, in the village of Patrick, near Stip, which the Serbs had been burned down during the Second Balkan War and afterwards he supposedly ended up with a group of refugees in the village of Kamenitsa, near Pazardjik. He even has showed his comrades from the cheta his native house next to the church in Patrick. However, the real name of the bomber was Velichko Dimitrov Kerin, born on October 26, 1897 in the village of Kamenitsa, from where his father and mother were." Jingiby (talk) 05:16, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

According to an official Request by the Yugoslav Government Under Article 11, Paragraph 2, of the Covenant: Communication from the Yugoslav Government. C. 518. M. 234. 1934. VII. Series of League of Nations publications, on p. 8 is visible the answer of Bulgarian official authorities: Vlado Georgijev-Cernozemski (whose real name is Velicko Kerin and who is of Bulgarian nationality, born at Kamenica in Bulgaria), the murderer of His Majesty King Alexander and of M. Barthou, and an instructor in the terrorist camps, was one of the greatest criminals known. At Sofia, he assassinated the Bulgarian deputy Dimov, was condemned to death for this crime and was then reprieved. Later he was again sentenced to hard labour for life for the murder of Naum Tomalevski. You can check it at the Official Journal of the League of Nations, Volume 15, 1934. Jingiby (talk) 08:38, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

In the archive of the Bulgarian Ministry of Interior on Vlado Chernozemski, were collected five volumes with police files, court cases, official information, individual testimonies, and correspondence exchanged with the French and Yugoslav police, photos and other materials. On the basis of police intelligence and investigation and written data, the Political Police Department at the Police Directorate in Sofia produced a certificate No 24768 of 3 November 1934 giving detailed information and a description of him ... According to a birth certificate No 74 from 1897 from Kamenica Municipality, Velichko Dimitrov Kerin was born in the village of Kamenitsa on October 19, 1897. He was baptized on October 26, 1897, in the church in the village of Kamenitsa, and was recorded in the church registry under number 77 of 1897. Jingiby (talk) 08:58, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

We have also academic source specialized at the history of Macedonia conFirming his birthplace. CERNOZEMSKI, VLADO THE CHAUFFEUR (1897–1934). Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO) operative. Cernozemski was born as Velicko Georgiev Kerin in Kamenica, the region of Cepino in south Bulgaria. Check here please: Dimitar Bechev, Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia, Volume 68 of Historical Dictionaries of Europe, Publisher Scarecrow Press, 2009, ISBN 0810862956, p. 40. Jingiby (talk) 09:47, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

You disregard Christowe as a source yet you still insist on the information from "Istoricheski pregled" What was the source Istoricheski pregled used to back up the claim in that book?

With regards to the response by Bulgarian officials, back in those days it was easy to obtain fake documents, even Protogerov was to obtain fake passports to leave the country through government officials in order to save his life from Mihajlov. Vlado even had a fake Czech passport so apologies for taking things on face value.

Do you have a source or proof with regards to the birth certificate and baptism information, you might be right but cannot just go on the above as facts without proof as i could say the same thing that there are Ottoman defters where they mention Vlado Georgiev Kerin Grandfather as being from Shtip. Please provide proof of the birth and baptism records as you stated above otherwise i will have to dismiss the above information due to no concrete documents.

User:Chakalarov→User:Chakalarov 11:23, 6 February 2018.

Also i love how you quote Dimitar Bechev but cut it short from something that might discredit one of your other quoted sources above, let me put the full sentence from Bechev's book. His family was originally from Pirin yet above tends to push the reader that he and his family were Kamenica natives.

CˇERNOZEMSKI, VLADO ‘‘THE CHAUFFEUR’’ (1897–1934). Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO) operative. Cˇernozemski was born as Velicˇko Georgiev Kerin in Kamenica, the region ofCˇ epino in south Bulgaria, to a family coming from Pirin Macedonia. Dimitar Bechev, Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia, Volume 68 of Historical Dictionaries of Europe, p.40 Publisher Scarecrow Press, 2009, ISBN 0810862956. User:Chakalarov→User:Chakalarov 13:16, 6 February 2018.

Detailed study of the Chernozhemski's genealogy is described in the book of Mitre Stamenov - Атентатът в Марсилия. Владо Черноземски. Живот, отдаден на Македония. София (Издание на ВМРО-СМД, София, 1993). Stamenov describes the origin of his ancestors, as well as numbers of the birth-certificates, other documents cited by the him, etc. Most of the info is based on the files collected in Vlado's police archive. In fact his father Dimitar Velichkov Kerin was born in Kamenitsa village in 1873. His mother Risa Hristoskova Baltadzhieva was from the same village, born in 1875, died on March 30, 1931. The grandmothers and grandfathers of Chernozemski by his father and mother line are also born in Kamenitza. Check Mitre Stamenov here, please. Bechev is inaccurate in his statement, since Chernozemski's ancestors are partialy from Gorno Draglishte, Razlog Valley area in the Pirin region, i.e. some of his grand-grandparents and partially from Kamenitsa, Chepino Valley. Razlog Valley and Chepino Valley are neighboring geographical valleys, separated by Yundola Saddle between Rila Mountain and the Rhodope Mountains in southern Bulgaria. Citation from police files: Prominent persons from VMRO and his closest friends claim that Vlado Chernozemski is native of the Patrick - Shtip region, and that his real name was Vladimir Dimitrov Chernozemski. From the police intelligence and the written data available to the Political Police Department, it is clear established that the names Vlado Georgiev Chernozemski and Vladimir Dimitrov Chernozemski are aliases of Velichko Dimitrov Kerin, a native of Kamenitsa village, Peshtera district. According to birth certificate №74 of the Kamenitsa Municipality issued in 1897 Velichko Dimitrov Kerin was born in the village of Kamenitsa on October 19, 1897. He was baptized on October 26, 1897, at the church in Kamenitsa, and was recorded in the church registry under No. 77 of 1897 The police files are published here. Check them document # 23 titled: Сведения на Дирекция на полицията, Отдел политическа полиция за връзките на ВМРО с усташите и изпращането на Вл. Черноземски при д-р А. Павелич. Jingiby (talk) 05:21, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

According to Ivan Gadzhev - Director of the Macedonian-Bulgarian Scientific Institute "St. Kliment Ohridski", Chernozemsli was born in the village of Kamenitza, today a district of Velingrad on 19 October 1897, in a family of local peasants. Only his mother's grand-grandfather was from the village of Gorno Draglishte in Pirin Macedonia. This claim is from a book published by University Publishing House "St. Kliment Ohridski", Sofia called Иван Михайлов: отвъд легендите, том 1, 2007, р. 179. Check here please. Jingiby (talk) 15:30, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Jingby, the book you mention from Kroraina is sponsored by SMD of Karakachanov, so anything from them i cannot take on face value. You either prove it with copies of the birth certificates and Church records or i will simply have to dismiss this as i could find something on the internet claiming the same thing from a Pro Macedonian viewpoint and source it to contest this and it will just go back and forth. User:Chakalarov→User:Chakalarov 11:03, 7 February 2018.

You are wrong. The book was published in 1993. Initially VMRO was not involved in Bulgarian politics (until 1994) and was not a political party. Leader of the organization then was not the politician Karakachanov, but Prof. Dimitar Gotsev from the Faculty of History at Sofia University. The author of the book is respected Bulgarian journalist, who is not involved in politics. His book is cited by historians in academic publications as a source. For example by Dimitar Bechev in his Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia. More, his conclusions about the detailed genealogy of Vlado are confirmed by professional historians as the former director of the Central State Archive, Ph.D Tsocho Bilyarski. Jingiby (talk) 14:55, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes i know who Gotsev is and i was merely pointing out SMD is now Karakachanov's. Regardless i asked for birth certificate and baptism evidence or do we just use some potential bias sources as the gospel. User:Chakalarov→User:Chakalarov 12:50, 15 February 2018.

Check Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. Reputable tertiary sources may be cited. When relying on primary sources, extreme caution is advised. Although specific facts may be taken from primary sources, secondary sources that present the same material are preferred. I have cited as secondary, as well tertiary and primary sources confirminng the same story. You did not. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 04:08, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Do we really need to use "promacedonia.org" mirrored writings by a VMRO-SMD propagandist as sources in this article? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's where you can find most about him. He's not that popular of a figure to be traced in outside sources. You can remove the link if you like, but I think the book itself should stay. --Laveol ^T 18:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

There is a difference between a host and a source: promacedonia.org just happens to be a web archive of scanned published books that we're linking to as an utility. Removing links to the web versions won't increase the credibility but it will decrease the verifiability because the source would be harder to obtain. Don't be fooled by the name, it's on online library of books, some of which aren't even related to Macedonia. The website just republishes already peer-reviewed and issued publications online. It's linked to from my FA about Simeon I of Bulgaria if that could serve as an argument. Todor→Bozhinov 19:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The print source, published by a right-wing nationalist political party, is hardly a reliable source either, is it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

From what I've found he seems to be a pretty respected journalist and co-founder of used-to-be-most-popular newspaper in the country. I don't think he is connected to the party. I'm not even sure what kind of party they were in 1993 since they were founded in 1989 and became popular 10 years ago. Prior to 1989 the name VMRO was forbidden. --Laveol ^T 21:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

There is no doubt IMRO is a heavily nationalist organisation; so is promacedonia.org; and for an author to write a book that (from what I can make out) appears to be celebrating the career of a nationalist assassin as a "Life dedicated to Macedonia" doesn't speak to a lot of distance from those organisations. You'll have an uphill battle convincing me that this is anything but cheap nationalist propaganda. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok, feel free to remove it - it's an interesting reading about the whole trial etc. I'm not totally sure who shot the King now, having read some. It might make a good reading for some people, but if you're so convinced the article won't cease to exist without it. --Laveol ^T 21:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Fut, we can't remove a published source and leave a Macedonian online text from Geocities... Personally, I don't find a problem with linking to nationalist POVs on either side as sources: I mean, the biographic details are supposed to be pretty solid as info. Yeah, he was a nationalist assassin, but we have to source the biographic info from somewhere. I do believe any source is better than no source in this case. And quite honestly, I don't find quite so much wrong with the book: it cites some periodicals as references and although its tone is highly positive of Chernozemski, a reader should be able to seed that out, books tend to have POVs quite often. I've used a Bulgarian Communist Party publication from the party's Stalinist period for the Vasil Levski article and that I believe is perfectly OK for biographic details — I don't think ideology can significantly alter that. I don't think it's just "cheap nationalist propaganda" — it's a perfectly legit biography written from a nationalist perspective, which has to be NPOVized for Wikipedia, that's all. Todor→Bozhinov 14:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Considered a hero?

Why does it say he is considered a hero in the lead? He was an assassin and a terrorist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.79.225.131 (talk) 21:52, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Newsreel link, not working.

The newsreel link for the assassination of the Yugoslav king, plays only the audio. There's no video footage. GoodDay (talk) 23:29, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

I have just changed it. Jingiby (talk) 04:42, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Still no video, only audio. I'm speaking of the newsreel earlier in the article. GoodDay (talk) 15:09, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Old links not working often

Sorry, but the this info is old and some links make problems. Fixed links. A lot of new sources provided. I present a whole series of publications by Aleksandar Matkovski who is a professional historian in which Ivan Mihailov's VMRO and its activists, including Chernozemski, are described as fascist collaborators. Jingiby (talk) 12:32, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Jingiby, the sources you have added have several issues - the one by Žarko Trajanovski is not directly reffering to Chernozemski nor is it the official view of the Macedonian historiography (Trajanovski to my knowledge is a photographer and a journalist, not a historian).

I dispute the verifibility and reliability of the source of Litovski - to me the site looks like some obscure blog.

The articles by Litovski (not Matkovski, as you state in the comment above) in Sloboden Pečat actually don't call Chernozemski a fascist - the one time they do is in the last one, in reference to a statement made by Kimon Geogriev.

This also borders WP:OVERKILL.

Best regards. Kluche (talk) 13:27, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi, all Macedonian sources - both the deleted ones and the one that remained - claim that Chernozemski was a Bulgarian. I don't understand why this fact is constantly removed. I added it again and please don't delete it from this article. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 05:49, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Jingiby, you pushed the narrative that the Macedonian historiography pervived him as a fascist. None of your sources backed that up, hence why I removed it twice.

Also, what's the point in having the entire sentence exactly? The world historiography regards him as a Bulgarian, Macedonian historiography regards him as a Bulgarian - case closed. There's no need for the sentence. Kluche (talk) 06:50, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I see no point in hiding the view of Macedonian historiography. It is almost always different from the consensus in world historiography and it is different from the Bulgarian one. Here again there are contradictions, especially since the historian Gjorgi Tanovski claims that he was Macedonian. In addition, the article is constantly vandalized with the claim that he was Macedonian. Moreover this Bulgarian is directly related to the history of Macedonia. Jingiby (talk) 07:55, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Here again there are contradictions, especially since the historian Gjorgi Tanovski claims that he was Macedonian.

So it's false to state that "the official historiography in North Macedonia regards him as a controversial Bulgarian.", since there are contradicting opinions on that matter?

Hence why I recommended the use of "figure" - covers all views i.e both the view that he was a Bulgarian, and the view that he was a Macedonian. Kluche (talk) 08:31, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

It is good to describe the whole mess in Macedonian historiography. Jingiby (talk) 09:06, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Jingiby, this comment does not seem constructive nor does it answer my question - is 'controversial figure' acceptable, since calling him a 'controversial Bulgarian according to the historiography of North Macedonia' is a falsehood - as you yourself stated that there are contradicting opinions in Macedonian historiography about him. Also a reliable, non-biased source for the statement by Tanovski would be greatly appreciated. Best regards. Kluche (talk) 09:11, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

The majority of historians in North Macedonia accept him as a controversial Bulgarian. Jingiby (talk) 09:14, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Jingiby A reliable non-biased source would be great, in order to cite it in the article. Also a source on the statement by Tanovski would be great. Kluche (talk) 09:31, 24 September 2022 (UTC)