Talk:The Illuminatus! Trilogy/Archive 3

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

More information

I think this article desperately needs more information, including details on the books illuminati, and more information on all the factions (LDD, JAMs, etc.) Also, In the book it mentions "Morituri Groups" I haven't been able to deduce what this means, other than Morituri mean, (roughly) "We, who are about to die"

Added separate article for The Golden Apple (novel)

FYI, for disambiguation purposes I went ahead and added a seperate brief article specifically for The Golden Apple (novel) book of the trilogy. I made the article mainly because there were multiple unrelated uses of "Golden Apple" around Wikipedia, so it needed a disambiguation page. In the process of disambiguating "Golden Apple", I needed a stub article for the second book of this trilogy.

Right now the article just contains some basic information from the trilogy article specifically related to The Golden Apple. However, please feel free to expand The Golden Apple (book) with whatever verifiable info you have on that particular book. One thing in particular I was missing is the exact date of publication of the second book in the 1970s. So if you have more specific information on the publication of the second book or a more specific synopsis of its contents, go ahead and add it in. Thanks. :) Dugwiki 20:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

There should also be articles created for the other two books as well, especially since the same argument behind the creation of a Golden Apple article applies to the creation of an article on Leviathan. 23skidoo 21:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I just happened to need the Golden Apple article in this case, but it seems probably worthwhile to have articles for the other two books as well. I'm working on some other items at the moment but I'll try to remember to add stubs for those books down the line if someone else doesn't do it first. Dugwiki 21:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

It just occurred to me that the title for the article may be incorrect. I think it should be Illuminatus! The Golden Apple or something like that. I left a note on the article's talk page to this effect. Please check to see what the official title of the book is as that's the title that needs to be used for the article. 23skidoo 03:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I would think it is officially "Illuminatus! Part II: The Golden Apple", how does that suit. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 13:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

i'm gonna be bold and redirect dugwiki's article to this page. a disambig page doesn't have to point to a unique article for every definition, its perfectly ok to have the "golden apple" disambig just point to this page, with the "golden apple" bit remaining unlinked. and there really isnt a lot to say about each individual piece of illuminatus because, as shea and wilson have stated, they wrote it as one giant block, just the publishers chose to release it in 3 chunks. its true some people might search for "golden apple", and if they do they will soon find this page via the disambig. Zzzzz 19:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing - I think that's the right move. Шизомби 19:34, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Please reconsider August 2nd revert?

I'm a copyeditor by avocation and a lover of the Illuminatus! trilogy - I plunged in on August 2nd with a reworking of the plot summary section and was immediately reverted by User:Canadian_Bacon. Having since witnessed the impressive credentials at the top of this discussion page, I can understand the community here being conservative about changes, but I believe my edits were both good and an improvement, and that a revert (done so immediately that my edits were clearly not read) was regrettable overkill.

I don't know and can't presently enter into the politics of this page, and so I'll leave this issue to all of you, but can anyone interested please review the version dated 16:02 August 8th to see whether it is entirely unacceptable or whether any of the changes I made can be reintroduced in a way that will best introduce potential readers to the events in and flavor of the magnificent Illuminatus! trilogy? --65.89.141.60 16:36, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I think your closing statement "A lot of other things happen too: I wouldn't lie about it, really. Yeah." might have something to do with it. 23skidoo 17:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The only change reverted was the introduction of a link to the article magic (paranormal) that had been introduced. I have no opinion about whether or not that link belonged there, but the above makes it sound like you did substantially more editing than that. Did you perhaps fail to save your work? Jkelly 17:09, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the anon is referring to this revert which is far more substantial. It seemed like a fair summary, but ends with a questionable statement that my guess is why it was flagged as something to be reverted by popups. I left Canadian Bacon a PM asking for confirmation. 23skidoo 17:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I did make the August 2nd revert and yes it was because of the ending statement "A lot more stuff happens etc etc", I haven't touched it since though, sorry if I made an error in my revert Canadian-Bacon 17:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Thought so. If someone who has a better knowledge of the plot than I (I recognize some things but not others) wants to check what was written for accuracy, I'd have no objection to it being reinstated minus the remark. Hopefully 65.89.141.60 will learn from this that "off the cuff" remarks aren't considered proper and often end up with one's edits being discounted, as was the case here. 23skidoo 17:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm rolling back the article to before my revert, minus the ending comment, sorry for the inconveniance Canadian-Bacon 17:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, though I still recommend it be checked for accuracy, just in case. 23skidoo 17:50, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully someone with more knowledge on the subject can come along and do it, because I wouldn't rely on my recollection of the series, nor can I find a reliable plot summary elsewhere to reference. Canadian-Bacon 18:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Both versions of the summary are largely factual. Both versions are also far too long and detailed. I recommend to omit things like the Midget and his signs to arrive at something that gives the reader a feel of the book without undue detail. (Remember that we write about the book, not about the story.) At the very least, though, I suggest to divide the current version into paragraphs. —xyzzy_n 19:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree about condensing and splitting into paragraphs, but we gotta keep The Mgt. as this is a fairly major example of Wilson and Shea playing with the readers. I'm sure there are other details than can be trimmed. 23skidoo 19:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The Mgt is already mentioned further in the article. Is that satisfactory? —xyzzy_n 20:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Plot summary

could you please make edits to the plot summary here rather than on the article itself? reason is we want to keep it reasonably stable as its up for a wikimania award in its current form, and has yet to appear on the mainpage.

so, first, here is the current version:

Current version

The trilogy's rambling story begins with an investigation by two New York City detectives (Saul Goodman and Barney Muldoon) into the bombing of Confrontation, a leftist magazine, and the disappearance of its editor, Joe Malik. Discovering the magazine's investigation into the John F. Kennedy, Robert F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr., assassinations, the two follow a trail of memos containing cryptic clues that suggest the involvement of powerful secret societies. They slowly become drawn into a web of conspiracy theories. At the same time, the magazine's reporter, George Dorn, having been turned loose without support deep in right-wing Mad Dog, Texas, is arrested for possession of drugs. He is jailed and physically threatened, at one point hallucinating about his own execution. The prison is bombed and he is finally rescued by a group of strangers. He finds himself being bodily dragged into the hands of the Discordians, led by the enigmatic Hagbard Celine, captain of a golden submarine designed and built by himself. Hagbard represents the Discordians in their eternal battle against the Illuminati, the conspiratorial organization that secretly controls the world. He finances his operations with gold from the undersea remains of Atlantis.

The plot meanders circuitously and non-linearly around the globe to such far-flung locations as Las Vegas, Nevada (where a potentially deadly, secret USA government-developed mutated anthrax epidemic has been accidentally unleashed); Atlantis (where Howard, the talking porpoise, and his porpoise aides help Hagbard battle the Illuminati); Chicago, Illinois (where someone resembling John Dillinger was killed many years ago); and to the island of Fernando Poo (the location of the next great Cold War standoff between Russia, China and the USA).

The evil scheme uncovered late in the tale is an attempt to immanentize the eschaton (a catchphrase meaning "bringing about the end of the world" or "creating heaven on earth", and derived from a quotation in the works of Eric Voegelin). Here it refers to the secret scheme of The American Medical Association, an evil rock-and-roll band, to bring about a mass human sacrifice, the purpose of which is the release of enough "life-energy" to give eternal life to a select group of initiates, including among others Adolf Hitler. The AMA are four siblings who comprise four of the five mysterious Illuminati Primi. The identity of the fifth remains unknown almost all the way through the trilogy. The first European "Woodstock" festival, held at Ingolstadt, Bavaria, Germany, is the chosen location for the sacrifice of the unwary victims, via the reawakening of hibernating Nazi battalions from the bottom of nearby Lake Totenkopf. The plot is foiled when, with the help of a 50-foot-tall incarnation of the goddess Eris, the four members of the AMA are killed. Wilhelm is killed by the monstrous alien being Yog-Sothoth, Wolfgang is shot by John Dillinger, Winifred is drowned by porpoises and Werner is trapped in a sinking car.

The major protagonists, now gathered together onboard the submarine, are menaced by the Leviathan, a giant, pyramid-shaped single-cell sea monster that has been growing in size for millennia. The over-the-top nature of this encounter leads some of the characters to question whether they are merely characters in a book. This metafictional note is swiftly rejected (or ignored) as they turn their attention to the monster again. The threat is neutralized by offering up their onboard computer as something for the creature to communicate with to ease its loneliness. Finally, Hagbard Celine reveals himself as the fifth Illuminatus Primus—he has been toying with both sides and playing them off against each other in order to keep balance. He is a representative of the "true" Illuminati, whose aim is to spread the idea that everybody is free to do whatever they want at all times.

Alternative version

The trilogy's rambling story begins with an investigation by two New York City detectives (Saul Goodman and Barney Muldoon) into the bombing of Confrontation, a leftist magazine, and the disappearance of its editor, Joe Malik. Discovering the magazine's investigation into the John F. Kennedy, Robert F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr., assassinations, the two follow a trail of memos containing cryptic clues that suggest the involvement of powerful secret societies. They slowly become drawn into a web of conspiracy theories. At the same time, the magazine's reporter, George Dorn, having been turned loose without support deep in right-wing Mad Dog, Texas, is arrested for possession of marijuana by a corrupt sherriff with both an illuminati temple and one of the book's many John F. Kennedy assassins hidden in his jail (a glossary in the book's appendix gives "Lee Harvey Oswald" as the villain of a novel called the Warren Commission Report). George is rescued from this jail (and briefly serviced) by libertarian terrorists and delivered to the gigantic golden submarine of the Legion of Dynamic Discord, captained by the enigmatic Discordian Hagbard Celine, its designer, who sails George off to an undersea battle (assisted by Howard, a talking dolphin) over gold from ancient Atlantis which they will use to bribe the Mafia into betraying the Illuminati for them. After delivering the gold (and being serviced again), George narrowly escapes the fate of Mafia dons Banana-nose Maldonado and Robert Putney Drake whose minds are eaten alive by the Lovecraftian lloigor Hastur in punishment for their infidelity. Meanwhile psychedelic Wobbly and Tantric adept Simon Moon is initiating Joseph Malik into the Justified Ancients of Mummu, an anti(?)-Illuminati organization run by John Dillinger, by way of a Satanic ritual in which the devil appears in his customary guise as Billy Graham. The leaders of America, Russia, and China are manipulated to the brink of nuclear war over a small island named Fernando Poo, despite the best efforts of a blundering and psychotic James Bond parody, while destiny brings "the Mgt," a vengeful adbusting midget named Markoff Cheney, ever closer to Carmel, the Las Vegas pimp who supplies germ-warfare scientist "Soaply" Mocenigo, creator (and releaser) of apocalypse germ Anthrax-Leprosy-Mu. Meanwhile the Illuminati's sinister leaders, a popular rock foursome named after the diabolic American Medical Association, prepares to reanimate a supernaturally-charged Nazi military unit by rocking the stage at a Woodstock-style rock concert in Ingolstadt, Bavaria, and through the ensuing mass human sacrifice release energies to elevate a nonagenarian Adolph Hitler to deity status and (in the words of Eric Voegelin immanentize the eschaton. After servicing everyone, an incarnation of the chaos-goddess Eris (who has appeared as several different women over the course of the book and is actually Lauren Bacall) appears and foils the plot of evil rockers who are respectively 1) shot by Dillinger, 2) drowned by porpoises 3) trapped in a sinking car, and 4) eaten by Yog-Sothoth, earlier in the novel freed from its centuries' imprisonment within The Pentagon. The sole remaining leader of the Illuminati is revealed to be Hagbard Celine, who must now face Leviathan, a monolithic pyramid-shaped single-cell sea monster and his own status as a fictional character in an obviously absurdist novel, as Karmic punishment for having had to take lives in order to change the world, as the Dealey Lama, a Shazam-like wizard living deep beneath his namesake plaza, had warned him he would. The supercomputer of Hagbard's submarine, which is revealed to be sentient, accomplishes their escape by becoming Leviathan's companion, and also incidentally the omnicient narrator of the novel.

Discussion

so aim is to weigh up pros and cons of both versions (bearing in mind WP:WAF, undue weight,WP:SIZE and brilliant prose etc) to make a draft third version here on the talkpage that satisfies everyone, then once it gets the nod it can go into the main article. cheers. Zzzzz 20:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I have cut down the old version to this and suggest to construct a consensus version by expanding that, keeping in mind the KISS principle. —xyzzy_n 21:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't the American Medical Association link on the main page be taken down? It links to the American Medical Association organization, which isn't what the authors were referring to. 12:20, 26 December 2007

Mainpage is coming...

this article will be featured on the mainpage on sunday aug 27 2006. Zzzzz 10:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Hardcover editions?

I've been unable to find any confirmation that Illuminatus! -- either as an omnibus or as the separate volumes -- was ever published in hardcover, as is indicated in the infobox. Can anyone confirm that such an edition exists? Especially in the 1970s it was pretty common for books like this to be published exclusively in paperback. I have a friend who lives and breathes Illuminatus and has done so for 25 years, but he's never seen one. 23skidoo 14:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

ref 44 the first 2 URLS both mention "hc" (hardcover) editions. Zzzzz 14:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, while I'm pretty sure I've never seen a hardcover edition in a bookstore, they clearly are available from online retailers. Шизомби 14:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to get my hands on one if this is the case; my paperback from 1985 is close to falling apart... 23skidoo 15:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I can confirm this, my copy is a hardcover. I'm not sure when it was printed or if they are still available, I got it from a rare and used bookstore. Darquefaerie 06:10, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Copyright status

Who owns the copyright? I ask because it is consider part of the Discordian canon, which is usually copyleft. Mathiastck 08:35, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

All of Robert Anton Wilson's works are under regular copyright. The only work that is considered copyleft is Principia Discordia (which Wilson wasn't involved in writing but borrowed from for Illuminatus). In the case of Illuminatus! I think it's Avon Books, while a number of New Agey publishers hold copyright (along with Wilson himself, of course) on things like the Cosmic Trigger books. 23skidoo 14:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

A common misconception is revealed in the original question. Even "copyleft" has a copyright owner (unless released to the public domain). For example, the words I'm typing now are released into the Commons under the GFDL but I retain the copyright. --kingboyk 12:33, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The original publication was pretty clear -- the copyright read by Robert J. Shea and Robert Anton Wilson. Unless they sold the rights (doubtful) or left them to others, the copyrights are now split among Shea's wife and son, and Wilson's children. Some of them are active on the web.

Publishers usually only buy first (or 2nd or 3rd) printing rights, and don't buy the works outright these days. I don't think most writers' agents LET them any more...

24.176.20.60 01:43, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, the copyright issue's clear, but I can't post the relevant email here, as I have no permission. Half the copyright is owned by Mike Shea, and the other is split among Bob Wilson's heirs, with Christina Pearson, one of his daughters, the Executor. They have given their blessing to the Buddha Fart Wiki (now linked on the article page), and I don't know if the know that there's also a Wikia about it.

They just want to make sure, when people are putting information about the Trilogy out there, that the proper copyright attributions are made.

This is Mark (Icarus!) Steele, too-lazy-to-log-in, who no longer holds the reasons that he removed his name from the article to be valid. email: icarus_23@hotmailcom if anyone needs to verify anything...97.92.37.218 (talk) 07:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

The Lief Erickson

I suspect Lief Erickson is a consistent typo in The Eye in the Pyramid. The historical person is more correctly called Leif Erikson, as his name is spelt from The Golden Apple onward. 85.225.66.124

Lief is certainly wrong, check this out though: "^In modern Icelandic the first name is Leifur and in modern Norwegian Leiv. The patronym is Anglicized in various ways, such as Ericson, Eriksson, Ericsson, Erickson, Erikson and Eiriksson. " So, the last name might be right. It all depends on what his father's name was because, Eriksson means "Eriks son".--NoNo 19:14, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

'Hippie' is preferred spelling

Even in the Wikipedia that this one links to.

Da Vinci Code

[quote]It remains a seminal work of conspiracy fiction, predating Foucault's Pendulum and The Da Vinci Code by decades.[unquote] I dunno if making the comparison to Da Vinci Code is valid here. Illumunatis! is pure satire, occasionally bordering on the ridiculous (and I don't mean that in a bad way!) Whereas Da Vinci takes itself all too seriously. --Jquarry 22:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

However DaVinci and Foucault have both been compared to Illuminatus because not everything in Illuminatus was fiction, and the reader is sometimes challenged to figure out what is fiction and what is actually based on fact (i.e. all the stuff about Weishaupt and the Illumanati in the trilogy was not all made up by Wilson and Shea) - Da Vinci is definitely a poster child for that debate given the cottage industry that's sprung up to debate the different historical points. Plus all three books could be described as "fairy tales for paranoids" as Illuminatus was with talk of historical conspiracies and all that. I think the comparison is valid; the styles may be different (having read both Da Vinci and Illuminatus I can say Illuminatus is far superior in terms of writing) but conceptually they walk the same path. 23skidoo 22:20, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Appropriateness Question

This is Mark Steele, AKA --Icarus 23 , the person that did the comics adapatation. I had nothing to do with the information on the comic inserted here, other than adding information on the 'ashcan' editions and corredting a few items. Right now I also have my name mentioned on the Fantomas article, since I translated Daughter of Fantomas. Is it appropriate for me to start a page on myself, since these are both commercial products from me? Please discuss on my User Talk page. Thank you.

Book cover image

Although the later version is a "prettier" cover, I know the NovelsWikiProject tries to have the first edition book cover used for the infobox whenever possible, so I've scanned my 1st collected edition cover from 1984 and put it in the infobox, moving the image that was there to another part of the article. I also replaced the outdated infobox template with the one currently used by the wikiproject. 23skidoo 06:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Audiobook

Just leanred of this: http://www.deepleafaudio.com/illuminatus.htm Don't know that it's actually finished, and might be good to have a review before adding it, but I guess it could go in? Or is it problematic because it's a merchandising site?

I was thinking about doing the requested audio version of the WP article sometime. Would have to figure out Mac/PC/ogg issues. Шизомби 23:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

They’re offering the first part for download, so that had better be finished. Using the website as a reference, we can assert that they assert that they have done the first part and are going to release the other two. If there were reviews, we could say more, but even the existence of an audiobook seems important enough. By the way, OGG/Vorbis is cross-platform. For recording and post-processing, I recommend Audacity (MacOS versions here); don’t forget the WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia/Recording guidelines, especially the quality settings. —xyzzy_n 00:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The first two books are on iTunes, much cheaper than on deepleafaudio... are they a different version, perhaps? Шизомби (talk) 19:55, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

SpokenWiki

I found this article on the Spoken Wikipedia requests page, and have begun work recording it. It should not take more than a couple of days to finish the project. CB Droege 15:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Good job! The pronunciation of some of the unusual words is a little off, I think, particularly the German names and words (e.g. Adam Vice-haupt I believe is correct rather than Why-shaupt). But this was a dreadfully long monster of an article, and you were the only one brave enough to both take it on and finish it, so kudos! Шизомби 13:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Cut-up technique

I'm fairly sure I'd read either in something written by Wilson, or in an interview with him, that they employed this technique in Illuminatus!. Does anyone know where that might be discussed? I think it would be worth mentioning in the article. Шизомби 13:20, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Pynchon

I found a nice article by Paul Di Filippo about Pynchon and his imitators which has some discussion of Illuminatus! I'll try to type that up and post it here, as I'm not sure what or how much of it should be added (to the Allusions or Literary Significance sections), so maybe we could decide together. Шизомби 13:20, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Fernando Poo

Just for the record (and is a follow-up to a recent spelling edit), although Fernando Po might be the correct spelling in real life, Wilson and Shea consistently spell it Fernando Poo in the book, so that's the spelling that should be used, especially since the book features and obviously fictional version of the African location, anyway. 23skidoo 15:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

2012

Agree with comment above -- "Fernando Pó" may be the correct colonial-era Portuguese spelling, but "Fernando Poo" is what's used in the books. AnonMoos (talk) 14:12, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Title

The correct title of the trilogy is Illuminatus! rather than The Illuminatus! Trilogy. Neither author to my knowledge ever in conversation referred to the work by the latter label, certainly not when I interviewed them both at length in 1977 for the one-off Illuminatus! / Immortalist tabloid which accompanied the National Theatre production. As this Wikipedia article itself states: 'According to Wilson, the division of Illuminatus! into three parts was a commercial decision of the publisher, not the authors, who had conceived it as a single continuous volume.' The label The Illuminatus! Trilogy only appeared with the omnibus volume; it was merely a publishers' device to disambiguate it from the three-volume format. The label refers, in other words, to the format rather than to the work itself. I have accordingly altered the article wherever appropriate. Without wishing to appear pedantic, I also suggest that the upper-case 'T' of 'Trilogy' in the entry title be altered to lower-case; apart from anything else, it looks inelegant. Wingspeed 07:50, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Since the omnibus edition is the only version of the trilogy that is widely available, and it most likely to be the name used for people searching for the article, I recommend it stay where it is, with the applicable (sourced) references to the title being changed for the omnibus. The lede needs to reflect the fact that it is better known by the trilogy title due to its availability in that format. I'll add that now. PS. Unfortunately I can't as for some reason the system isn't saving new additions right now (though talk pages work fine). 23skidoo (talk) 21:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and for what it's worth it is called "The Illuminatus! Trilogy" in his bibliography in e.g. The Historical Illuminatus Chronicles. Шизомби (talk) 02:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

wingspeed edits

these edits have been removed as they do not improve the article. article is ALREADY a FEATURED ARTICLE, ie the highest quality existing in wikipedia, and has been heavily peer-reviewed previously, there is no significant changes required to writing or content. individual changes should be discussed and agreed here first before implementing, as they will need to justify why an already featured article needs to be altered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.24.117.120 (talk) 11:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Block quotes

Did something change about how they're handled? There used to be large quotation marks around the indented quotes, now there's something odd about the formatting, with the footnotes being preceded by underscores? Шизомби (talk) 02:26, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Robert Heinlein novellas?

Diff [1] is an interesting addition although if it's "undoubtable" and "obvious" one would hope there might be something that could be cited in support of it? Шизомби (talk) 14:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I am moving this here 'til the matter is discussed and sorted out.

However, almost undoubtedly the greatest literary influence on Illuminatus! are three of the quartet of Robert Heinlein novellas collected together under the title Assignment in Eternity (1953). Gulf (1949) and Elsewhen (1939; first published 1941) explore the concepts of a conspiracy of hidden supermen and a multiverse of alternate time-tracks, respectively. However, Lost Legacy (written 1939, but first published 1941 under the pseudonym Lyle Monroe) which is the most obvious inspiration for Illuminatus!, with its storyline telling of a millennia-old battle between the heirs to the ancient civilization of the lost continent of Lemuria, and such plot devices as reincarnation, psychic memories of debates between the classical gods, and secret sanctuaries where real-life characters, such as Ambrose Bierce, enjoy eternal life and plot the resistance against the evil secret society that rules the Earth. Lost Legacy was also an obvious influence on a real-life conspiracy theory, the Shaver Mystery, as well as many of Heinlein's own later novels, such as The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, a literary reference to Schrodinger's Cat, the title character in a later Shea and Wilson collaboration.

First of all, the tone of this paragraph, with its use of phrases like "almost undoubtedly" and "most obvious," is unencyclopædic and POV. What's more, in the absence of references, this seems to be pure original research. As such, it cannot remain in the article. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Neal Wilgus' The Illuminoids

Possibly deserves mention in the article, Wilson did an introduction. Illuminatus! gets mentioned throughout, and some of Wilson's other works. Wilson references Wilgus in Cosmic Trigger I, Historical Illuminatus II, E-Mail to the Universe, and Everything is Under Control (which uses it as a reference, but also has an entry on it) (maybe other books too?). I have a different edition than the one pictured here, which is interesting: http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/all_seeing_eye/illuminoids.html - that's the art from The Golden Apple, although the garden in the triangle is different, either they combined it with someone else's art, or maybe there's another painting Victor did. Шизомби (talk) 20:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

"a seminal work of conspiracy fiction"

The full quote from the intro of the article describes the trilogy as "a seminal work of conspiracy fiction, predating by years such novels as Foucault's Pendulum and The Da Vinci Code." Maybe it's seminal, obviously it predated the latter two novels—but it's not clear it influenced either of them, and Illuminatus! itself was predated by many works of Pynchon, Burroughs, and Philip K. Dick... so what's the point of that sentence? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.218.28 (talk) 21:13, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

"George Dorn hallucinated his own death while in prison in Mad Dog, Texas"

That is not correct. He saw his cellmate, Harry Coin, hanged (and gutted) in the cell, but later that proved to be an illusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.65.223 (talk) 22:42, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

You are right he hallucinates his own death on the Leif Erickson while being initiated by the Discordians namely Hagberd and Mavis/Stella — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.63.123.122 (talk) 23:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Ayn Rand

There's currently a section in the article that reads: "despite the fact that there are several passages in the trilogy that savagely parody libertarians in general and Ayn Rand in particular."

Ayn Rand was an Objectivist and many libertarians do not consider her to be a libertarian. In fact, she considered libertarians to be her greatest nemesis. So, does the book savagely parody libertarians and Ayn Rand, or does it savagely parody Objectivists and Ayn Rand in particular? (I haven't read it yet, just planning to). BillMcGonigle (talk) 13:54, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I suggest merging Tarantella_(character) into here instead of deleting the article. MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 19:44, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Strong Oppose as the Tarantella article is one sentence about a minor one-use character in a book with hundreds of characters, the lack of comparable articles for characters who are used considerably more in this work, and the completely lack of citation or evidence of notability of the Tarantella character per Wikipedia's guides on citation and notability. If that stub came to an AfD debate I honestly don't think it would have a snowball's chance in hell of surviving. - Markeer 01:37, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

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Cheers. —^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 01:43, 28 August 2015 (UTC)