Talk:Jats/Archive 10

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Archive 5 ← Archive 8 Archive 9 Archive 10

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 November 2021

I want to tell that which countries are home to Jatt population 223.190.185.36 (talk) 16:06, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:24, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 September 2021

Change non-elite tillers to an agriculture based community As, Non-elite tillers is nothing but ostracization of a significantly successful community, we do not appreciate the usage of these words as a community to describe us in a Wikipedia article. Just because Susan Bayly used 'non elite tillers' or 'peasant' in her books, doesn't mean that these are the only plausible words to be used here. It doesn't make any sense to have redundant terminology from a white British lady to be used. An 'agricultue based community' is a neutral term which neither glorifies or ostracize the entire community. 49.207.205.14 (talk) 08:59, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. The sourcing in the article uses this phrasing extensively, and we follow sources. Provide sourcing that uses the terminology you'd like to use. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:52, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

ans=no

change it to simply 'tribe' or 'community' I do not understand the resistance in accepting a basic fact, that the referenced material is talking about Jat people from an old(rather medieval perspective). Limiting a community/tribes identity in this day and age to words like "peasants", "tillers" and "herders" is nothing but derogatory. There are several examples of Wikipedia articles about other communities, which do not start off with an outdated reference from an old book. There doesn't need to be a book reference for the first line of article altogether infact. There is nothing factually wrong with calling a community just a community. It is beyond me that Wikipedia editors are failing to understand the impact of something like this.

So, if we go by references only then why are the references to Indian authors are rejected? Does all the credibility of "defining" Indian communities lies with white people? This editor reeks of hypocrisy and is not acting impartially towards the subject matter.


Here is a reference for you:


Reference: History Of Jats by Qanungo Kalikaranjan

Publication date 1925 Topics UOD Collection digitallibraryindia; JaiGyan Language English Chapter-1 The Jats are a tribe so widespread and numerous is to be almost a nation by tbem- selves, now numbering about nine million. Ashisheoran (talk) 20:04, 12 October 2021 (UTC)


Note to Ashisheoran:
Literally typing "ans=no" (as plain text) does absolutely nothing.
The instruction intends that you would adjust the template at the top of this section from
{{edit extended-protected|Jat people|answered=yes}}
to
{{edit extended-protected|Jat people|answered=no}}.
In this instance I have done it for you as a favour. (This does not imply any opinion about your requested change.)
—DIV (14.201.202.157 (talk) 06:23, 13 January 2022 (UTC))
Support good-faith IP editors: insist that Wikipedia's administrators adhere to Wikipedia's own policies on keeping range-blocks as a last resort, with minimal breadth and duration, in order to reduce adverse collateral effects; support more precisely targeted restrictions such as protecting only articles themselves, not associated Talk pages, or presenting pages as semi-protected when viewed from designated IP ranges.
 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:19, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Phrasing: "The Arab rulers, ...."

This sentence, "The Arab rulers, though professing a theologically egalitarian religion, the position of Jats or the discriminatory practices against them that had been put in place in the long period of Hindu rule in Sind." as written makes no sense.

Presumably it should be something like, "Though the Arab rulers professed a theologically egalitarian religion, the position of Jats and the discriminatory practices against them that had been put in place in the long period of Hindu rule in Sind were in fact maintained by the Arab rulers." In any case, it needs to be fixed.

—DIV (14.201.202.157 (talk) 06:14, 13 January 2022 (UTC))
Support good-faith IP editors: insist that Wikipedia's administrators adhere to Wikipedia's own policies on keeping range-blocks as a last resort, with minimal breadth and duration, in order to reduce adverse collateral effects; support more precisely targeted restrictions such as protecting only articles themselves, not associated Talk pages, or presenting pages as semi-protected when viewed from designated IP ranges.

 Done, thanks for spotting this error! Lennart97 (talk) 10:19, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Clan

Also add Nirwal clan of jat people 103.42.89.70 (talk) 17:00, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Change some info.

Change non elite tiller and herder to agriculturists. Rockyxyz (talk) 16:47, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. See above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:04, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Change only some words

  • (Change Tillers and herders to agriculturists in first paragraph,please.)) 106.211.63.154 (talk) 17:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Please change some controversial words

(Change non elite Tillers herders to land owning agriculturists.sources are history books.please.) Rockyxyz (talk) 17:55, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Please mr lenart, mr chanchal or mr. radish. Do some change

Remove non elite,it is derogatory.community have their own regiment , kings in bharatpur state and dholpur state and have highest per capita land. Change only non elite peasant and herder to landowming agriculturists or zamindars. Rockyxyz (talk) 04:07, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Add some useful information.This is most useful information for government exams,to avoid any confusion.

Jats are fall in general category in haryana and Punjab state , they fall in obc in state government only but fall in general category in central list of all states all over india except rajasthan(except bharatpur and dholpur state). Rockyxyz (talk) 04:15, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Add a photo for reference in front description like all other wiki pages.

You can add photo of udaybhanu singh of dholpur state . Rockyxyz (talk) 04:17, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 January 2022

Gondals are also jatt tribe. I request you to include them in. 39.33.158.66 (talk) 09:44, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 15:50, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 February 2022

Please add in the last names for Jatt families: Randhawa Sidhu Sandhu Sohal 2001:8003:20E2:2601:6511:DF92:F36B:2E18 (talk) 11:56, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 12:14, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 February 2022

Add Warraich people to Jatt clans. Warraichs are jatts 176.72.95.198 (talk) 10:32, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Lennart97 (talk) 10:59, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

U haven’t mentioned many of the Jat personalities in this page. Jats dominate in every sector of India like sports army politics movies and singing

You haven’t mentioned many of the Jat personalities in this page. Jats dominate in every sector of India like sports army politics movies and singing you should add those personalities to this page. And the history of jats is also not mentioned here fully. Jats are the most dominating and influential people of India 117.242.116.108 (talk) 15:09, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

@117.242.116.108 see Jat People Vhemie (talk) 16:37, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
@117.242.116.108 see List of jat People Vhemie (talk) 16:38, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 April 2022

The Jat people are located mainly in the region of Punjab . India and Pakistan both .A high number of jat origins are from gjurat. And two castes which is not mentioned above of the Jat people are Hunjras And Dhudras . So please Include them also in your list of Jat castes. 119.159.234.203 (talk) 03:46, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:25, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Badan Singh

Badan Singh has been reported on by the jesuit missionary F.X.Wendel (died Agra 20.3.1803)[1]. Wendel: Badan Singh "became master of a large territory in the Agra region, on both sides of the Jamuna (river)."(p.vi) He continues with" "The battle of Panipat relieved him of both the Marathas and the Afghan Abdali, ..." "He (Badan Singh) equally became master of a long strip of land stretching from the gates of Delhi to Cambal."(p.vi) Badan Singh died in battle on december 26, 1763 at the age of 55. Wendels memoirs end with the events in 1767/68 of Badan Singhs son . Deloche mentions that the Jat empire ended "with a battle at Dig in 1776." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.131.49.208 (talk) 13:23, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Les mémoires de Wendel sur les Jat, les Pathan et les Sikh", J. Deloche, EFEO Paris 1979, pp.i, vi-vii

Requested move 17 May 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 17:20, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Jat people → Jats – The preferred title according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes)#General conventions and disambiguation which is already a redirect to here. The Google Ngram Viewer shows a slight preference for Jat over Jats but Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes)#Singular titles indicates that it "generally deprecated in favor of plural titles". CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 00:06, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Extorc, I suggest you request admin assistance to move the page, because your way of moving was all wrong. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:55, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Oh, I am sorry, what is the wrong step here? Considering i am interested in doing such moves in future, could you guide me? >>> Extorc.talk 20:59, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
One question I have is that am I necessited by the policy to make the move if I have made in non admin closure of the request? >>> Extorc.talk 21:04, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
You can file a technical move request at WP:RM. For the rest, see WP:MOVE. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:17, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Move on this page Jats to Jat

Move on this page Jats to Jat. Smith Jats (talk) 11:40, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

The preferred title according to Wikipedia's.Smith Jats (talk) 11:41, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Add Atwals to the List of clans section.

Atwal is a well-known Sikh Jat clan but is missing from the list of clans section of the Jat page. I would add it myself but the page has edit protection. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atwal — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.185.182.236 (talk) 04:56, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 27 June 2022

I want to add Rawat as a jat tribe. We (Rawat Jats) have 84 villages in Haryana, Rajasthan and Western Uttar Pradesh. We fought against Aurangzeb in in 1684. See Kanha Rawat. 45.249.87.69 (talk) 05:23, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done Please provide a reliable source for this new information. --RegentsPark (comment) 13:31, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

"urban jobs" means "high status", that too in Punjab! 😂 How familiar is the administrator with East or West Punjab?

"Over the years, several Jats abandoned agriculture in favour of urban jobs, and used their dominant economic and political status to claim higher social status."

This is a rather idiotic statement which shows complete irreverence to the Panjabi political landscape and culture.

This statement assumes that urban jobs are associated with a "higher social status", in a country, were the chiefs/proprietors have been largely influential zamindars — and in the Punjab region, Jatts are by far the most important group!

Members of the Unionist Party, the Sikh aristocracy, the Mughal rural nobility/aristocracy, and the armed local chiefs of the Delhi Sultans — where never for mercantile, priestly or scribal urban backgrounds! Up until today, how many urbanite non-landowning chiefs has Punjab had? 2A01:4B00:F65F:B400:8442:EB25:D0BC:8E3D (talk) 02:46, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Well, I don't think I wrote that, but it very much is true of Jats in Uttar Pradesh and some parts of Haryana. It started in the late 19th century with the Arya Samaj campaigning actively among them. You may read all about it in Craig Jeffreys, Timepass: Youth, Class, and the Politics of Waiting in India, Stanford University Press, 2010, pages 40-50ish. Many are in urban careers now. What is meant by higher social status is in part also higher caste status among Hindus, i.e. inching toward Khyatriahood. And even when it is not caste specifically, higher social status can mean, politicians want your support, charities want your money, you have bigger houses, your children go to better schools, and so forth. Also, it shouldn't be "over the years several Jats abandoned ..," but "over the years considerable numbers of Jats in some regions abandoned ..." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:52, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
Actually, on second thoughts, you are right, they didn't abandon agriculture. They mostly diversified. So perhaps, "Over the years, some Jats communities diversified agriculture with military careers, entrepreneurship and urban jobs, and used their dominant economic and political status to claim higher social status." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:57, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Dhudi

Kindly add Dhudi clan information 39.35.107.193 (talk) 18:10, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Very few notable Jat people are shown

Jats dominate army and sports and on the Jat wiki page in list of jats you have shown a very few people. So you should add them all. And in singing too. 59.95.159.211 (talk) 16:14, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Film request

Requesting editors with the extended confirmed user access level to add film Jatt Da Gandasa (1982) under "In popular culture" — Preceding unsigned comment added by JazzyBsolarjatt (talk • contribs) 14:46, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

"Traditionally" agricultural community

In the refrences provided and most of the books i have read about jats they are traditionally classified as non elite peasants, most of the books stating them as agricultural communities refer to the current situation of the community. So i think we should either replace traditional or agricultural by non elite tillers/peasents. So pinging some of the senior editors having a sound knowledge of the subjects and southern asia communities to have a look RegentsPark Fowler&fowler Abecedare. I came to know when submitting an edit request to the Yadav page, they are continuously trying to prove them as agricultural too and not non elites. What they and Jat need to understand is that two wrongs doesn't make a right. Harman Paul (talk) 05:56, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 September 2022

Tushir 25 (talk) 17:02, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Jats were not shudra pls remove it...

 Not done: seems sourced. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jats&redirect=no#cite_note-Sharma1999-97 Cannolis (talk) 17:34, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Lead's first sentence

This is in regard to the recent undiscussed changes to the longstanding consensus version of the lead's first sentence, which was introduced by Sitush in 2014 after a talk page discussion.

The longstanding "traditionally agricultural community in Northern India and Pakistan" bit was changed to "traditionally non-elite tillers and herders in Northern India and Pakistan", which is not even supported by the source cited for that description.[1] Fowler&fowler is using a POV summary about Indian Jats from a 1990s source,[1] and then they are extending that summary to Pakistani Jats by doing WP:OR/WP:SYN. If that wasn't enough, they have also included other WP:OR like 'traditionally herders', although that source doesn't summarise even Indian Jats like that. As if all of this wasn't enough, they are presenting that WP:OR to summarise all Jats in the very first sentence of the lead! Not to mention that the 21st Century scholarly/academic sources don't summarise Jats like that at all. So they should develop a consensus for their highly POV changes on the talk page first.

We use scholarly/academic WP:TERTIARY sources to know how a particular topic is summarised encyclopedically. As the present issue is about the lead's first sentence, the glossary entries and other succinct summaries in scholarly/academic tertiary/introductory books suit our purpose. Also, as the description involves how a community/caste is summarised/described currently, the sources from the 1990s or earlier are too outdated for this purpose. So I have extensively searched the 21st century, scholarly/academic tertiary/introductory books for that purpose. Unsurprisingly, they support the current consensus version, i.e. Jats are summarised in them as an agricultural community/caste or as a landowning agricultural community/caste. And none of them summarises Jats as traditionally non-elite tillers and herders.

Here are the relevant sources summarising all Jats, rather than only Indian or Pakistani ones:

21st Century tertiary/introductory scholarly sources summarising Jats
  • Khanna, Sunil K. (2004). "Jat". In Ember, Carol R.; Ember, Melvin (eds.). Encyclopedia of Medical Anthropology: Health and Illness in the World's Cultures. Vol. 2. Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers. p. 777. ISBN 978-0-306-47754-6.

Notwithstanding social, linguistic, and religious diversity, the Jats are one of the major landowning agriculturalist communities in South Asia.

Jat: Sikhs’ largest zat, a hereditary land-owning community

Jat: name of large agricultural caste centered in the undivided Punjab and western Uttar Pradesh

Jats Are a traditionally agricultural community native to the Indian subcontinent, comprising what is today Northern India and Pakistan.

Jat: A traditionally agricultural community native to the Indian subcontinent who are primarily of Hindu, Muslim and Sikh faiths

Jat: An influential rural caste, renowned for cultivating skill and skill as soldiers

The fact that, ethnically, the majority of Sikhs were Jats—agriculturalists with distinctly martial cultural traditions—would play a significant role in the community’s relationship with those authorities.

The Jaṭs, who constitute over two-thirds of the Sikh population, have traditionally been landowning farmers. They come from a nomadic background, started settled agriculture in the Punjab around the fifteenth century, and were the primary inhabitants of the area around Kartarpur.

Jat(s): Traditionally, a land-owning or agricultural caste

Jat – landowning caste from a nomadic background, the Jats comprise the majority of the Sikhs.

The Jats, who today constitute the landed dominant class both in numbers and in wealth, are not limited to Sikhism but can be found in all of the three major religions of Punjab – Islam, Hinduism and Sikhism. They are believed, by some, to date all the way back to the Schythian tribes who followed the same route as the Aryans and settled in the area between Afghanistan and Rajasthan. The Jat Sikhs constitute the earliest converts and became a great landowning aristocracy during the kingdom of Maharajah Ranjit Singh.

jat: one of the agricultural castes

Jat — a farming caste (zat) dominant in the Punjab

The Jats, being the landed caste, constitute the economically and politically dominant caste group. The Jats are believed to have descended from Scythian tribes who followed the same route as the Aryans across the Hindu Kush and settled in Punjab. They were brought into the fold of Sikhism during the time of Guru Arjun. They spearheaded early Sikh armies and Sikh Jats became a land-owning aristocracy during the rule of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Recruitment into the British Army further consolidated their power.

The East African-Indian divide has been further complicated by caste. The majority of East African Sikhs are Ramgarhia, members of the artisan castes, which include Tarkhan (carpenters), Lohar (blacksmiths), and Raj (bricklayers). A majority of the migrants from Punjab are Jat, members of the landowning/farming caste.

JAT. A rural caste of Punjab and Haryana. In Pakistani Punjab the Jats are Muslims; in Indian Punjab, adjacent Haryana, and northern Rajasthan they are Sikhs; and in the remainder of Haryana most of them are Hindus. In rural Punjab the Sikh Jats are strongly dominant, owning most of the valuable land and controlling the administration. This control extends into the state politics of the Punjab, where most of the chief ministers since independence in 1947 have been Jats. In the Panth they are particularly prominent, comprising more than 60 percent of all Sikhs.

So the latest scholarship is describing Jats as 'agricultural community/caste', which Fowler&fowler weirdly described as "silly euphemism" in their latest edit summary![2] But in reality, their own OR-based summary is missing from the scholarship. So I will reinsatte the longstanding consensus version of the lead's first sentence. They can obviously develop a new consensus here. - NitinMlk (talk) 23:23, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

@NitinMlk:

I thought I was being my usual cranky self when I impulsively reverted his page while taking a break from reading some books for the Darjeeling page, but imagine my surprise upon discovering I am the main author of this page (by whatever metric WP computes authorship).
I then read the lead and the history section, that is, up to the point before the full-blown grandiloquence begins in Section 1.1. That too is all mine—my language, my sources, my style.
The pictures looked familiar. So I clicked those. All the beautiful non-elite ones were apparently uploaded by me, including a superbly beautiful one of Charan Singh, the first Jat prime minister of India on his way to address the nation at India's Red Fort.
So, I looked into the history and it began to come back. I had edited the article in 2011, invited by Sitush. I started editing on 15 October 2011 and stopped when a full one month was up on 14 November 2011 after some 120 odd edits.
I had been reading the book of Susan Bayly at the time, and used "non-elite." It is her terminology for "peasant," the term by which Jats are known in conventional historiography; see scholarly sources.
But like Periyar had said about Indo-Aryan-speaking Indians, "They only want to creep up the caste ladder; they don't have the guts to turn their backs on caste." this page's edits have not touched the rest of my edits beyond the first sentence, sometimes changing "non-elite" to "non-elite but not servile," (distancing it from the Dalits apparently), other times removing "non-elite" altogether, or shuffling the non-elite pictures, throwing in a prince or two, so the Jats don't appear too non-elite. Anyway, as in the 11 intervening years the editors of this page have only nickel and dimed my first sentence, let me respond to you. The Jats are traditionally a non-elite or peasant caste.
>>You use tertiary sources?
The book, Caste, society and politics in India from the eighteenth century to the modern age, of Susan Bayly, Professor Emerita of Historical Anthropology at the University of Cambridge, which I had used as a source, and which uses "non-elite," has been cited 1239 times in scholarly publications on Google Scholar. It is a widely used textbook, read in universities around the world. It qualifies as WP:TERTIARY, which states:introductory undergraduate-level textbooks are regarded as tertiary sources because they sum up multiple secondary sources.Policy: Reliable tertiary sources can help provide broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources and may help evaluate due weight, especially when primary or secondary sources contradict each other
I haven't checked, but I'll bet some good money that the sum total of the Google Scholar citations for your sources don't add up to much more than 1239. So, I won't stack up alternate sources from any which from anywhere, only the widely-read below in a few minutes. Please don't dismiss Bayly's book especially when you don't have anything equivalent as widely cited in response. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:41, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

F&f's sources

Proposition: Among the major scholars of South Asian society and history, the Jats are described as ------ (to be filled in after some sources have been added below).

I'm keeping in mind two categories for the Jats' description, not now, but what they traditionally were:

  • Non-elite per Susan Bayly
  • Peasant per quite a few others. (Peasant, by the way, means, (OED, 3rd edition, 2005) " A person who lives in the country and works on the land, esp. as a smallholder or a labourer; (chiefly Sociology) a member of an agricultural class dependent on subsistence farming. Now used esp. with reference to foreign countries (or to Britain and Ireland in earlier times), and often to denote members of the lowest and poorest rank of society (sometimes contrasted with prince or noble). In specific contexts the term may be variously defined. Although modern sociologists agree that a peasant works the land, the more wealthy peasants may also be landowners, rentiers, hirers of labour, etc., and in these capacities share interests with completely different social groups. Hence, in the analysis of many rural societies, divisions within the class frequently have to be made."), so the Jats might be middle-peasants per Bina Agarwal's second example, or simply peasants in her first.
Support for the proposition with Google Scholar citations
  1. Peter Robb] Emeritus Research Professor of the History of South Asia, School of Oriental and African Studies, (SOAS), University of London.
    1. Robb, P. (2011), A History of India, Palgrave Essential History Series (2 ed.), Palgrave, p. 245, ISBN 978-0-230-34549-2,  Standardizations and accommodations in Indian society, in this period, often took the form of status controversies between notional or kin groups rather than individuals, as already noted. Caste began to be reassessed. The outcome was both a development of harder and broader communities, and the persistence of pre-colonial norms. Influences had also' included regional political mobilizations, Mughal and Company policies, and the specialized production and urban growth sponsored by long-distance trade. The changes were social as well as intellectual, affecting the upper levels of society first. Remarkable caste-based subdivisions (of labour, marriage and custom) were already noticed, by seventeenth- and eighteenth-century European observers, among low-status servants and workers. Even so, most Shudras were still only vaguely identified by 1800. Among the agriculturist Jats, Kunbis and Vellalas, for example, caste and jati divisions often seem to have been localized and obscure to outsiders. By contrast, Brahmans, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas were commonly differentiated outside as well as within the localities, and hence some groups were widely accepted as belonging to a 'high' varna. Many achieved this, however, only after deliberate effort and changes in behaviour.
    2. Google scholar citation index 174
  2. Bina Agarwal
    1. Agarwal, Bina (1994), A Field of One's Own: Gender and Land Rights in South Asia, Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press, pp. 229, 431, ISBN 0521418682,  As noted earlier, similar political considerations probably underlay British support for forced leviratic unions for peasant (especially Jat) widows in the Punjab.(p. 229) ... In relation to women's own perceptions, studies based on interviews with peasant women in many parts of India and Bangladesh suggest that women do in fact recognize the importance of their work contribution to welfare, while lamenting the little recognition their contribution receives from other family members. A Jat woman in a middle peasant household in rural Punjab comments: We are the slaves of slaves. Agricultural labourer men help Jat men in the fields, but for Jat women it only means more work We have to cook more food and fee the labourers as well. ... (p. 431)
    2. Google scholar citation index 3834 .
    3. This is a major work of sociological economics.

Discussion continued

Fowler&fowler, firstly, as Susan Bayly's source summarises only Indian Jats, we cannot use it for summarising all Jats. It is also summarising them as non-elite currently (read 1990s), rather than traditionally: check her glossary entry.[1] Anyway, here is a similar source from even a more reputed scholar (Christopher Bayly), which was published in a similar year by the same academic press, and has been cited 1863 times:

Jat: a middle agriculturalist caste of north India.

Here is another source, which is actually from 21st Century, and has been cited nearly 1000 times:

Jats: north Indian dominant Hindu agricultural caste

Both of them summarise Jats like our article. But then, they are summarising only Indian Jats, just like Susan Bayly's source. We need 21st Century introductory scholarly sources which summarise all Jats.
Secondly, the quotation which you provided from the footnote of Bina Aggarwal's source actually mentions a fact that British supported "forced leviratic unions for peasant (especially Jat) widows in the Punjab." Here the author is describing peasants of a region in the British era, rather than summarising South Asian Jats. Actually, this source summarises Jats as a 'landowning caste', just like the multiple 21st-century sources listed by me already: here's the relevant quotation from its page no. 202:

British endorsement of widow remarriage took a different turn in the Punjab, where they sought to protect local customs in order to stabilize their own political interests in the region.9 Here leviratic unions were customary among landowning castes, most notably the Jats.

But again, this description is also the region, era and context-specific, rather than a summary of all Jats, not to mention that it is from 1994.
In short, there is no point in doing WP:SYN like this. Please provide tertiary/introductory sources from the 21st Century which summarise all Jats, as this is what we require here. - NitinMlk (talk) 16:23, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
None of your sources are WP:TERTIARY sources, i.e. widely used undergraduate texbooks that have been vetted for balance. Chris Bayly's is a monograph; as is Bina Agarwal's, what is why I am relegating her to the bottom as the tertiary sources pile up, e.g. Peter Robb, who is essentially paraphrasing Susan Bayly's groundbreaking work. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:35, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Robb in other words explains what Susan Bayly means by non-elite. Also please stop brandishing 21-st century as if it is some kind of inoculation by virtue of which poor sources become reliable and express due weight. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:41, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
They are as much tertiary as the Susan Bayly's source, as all three of them are introductory in nature. And sources from 1990s or before are too outdated for summarising them currently, especially when we have such a large number of 21st-century tertiary sources: you know this as well as anyone. Anyway, you are completely missing my main point: we cannot cite sources for Jats of one region and then WP:SYNTHESIS that summary for the remaining. - NitinMlk (talk) 16:53, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Note: I have protected the page for a couple of weeks to encourage settling of the current dispute about the lede sentence through talkpage discussion instead of the slow-revert cycle and communication through edit-summaries that has been ongoing since, at least, Aug 2021. Given that the editors involved are experienced and knowledgeable (and not the usual caste-warriors!), I am hopeful that consensus can be reached based on summarizing what the best available sources say. In case I forget, please do remind me to reinstate the extended protection when the dispute is settled, and the current full-protection expires or is lifted. Abecedare (talk) 00:14, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Abecedare: I've gone back to my original position. I don't see this discussion to be productive. I have other things to do such as the Darjeeling FAR which I have to finish before the end of the month and the India FAR which will begin thereafter. I have already taken part in a long thread on caste on WT:INDIA where I gave a summary of Susan Bayly's work. I have reverted this page to the last version responded to. The sources I gathered thereafter might be too many with too many quotes. I will move them to a user sub-page for use in the India FAR. Thanks again for your prompt attention to the matter here. I apologize for reverting in a somewhat arbitrary fashion. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:40, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
PS Another thing that came to mind was that unlike Kurmi and a lesser extent Yadav, which were the other two pages I worked on then, which like the Jats are also non-elite, I found the Jats' history to be less attractive, in part because they were inveterate misogynists, at least the Hindu Jats, from the first British censuses to the present day they have engaged in the killing of girl babies or fetuses. This is my personal POV, but I think it is one reason I never went back to the Jats page in a way I have to Kurmi and Yadav every now and then. Both Kurmi and Yadav have "non-elite" in their lead. Only the Jats page has had issues apparently. I really don't have any wish to work on this page. I did in 2011 in part because Sitush has asked. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:55, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Q: I skimmed through the above discussion and source quotes, and perhaps because I am not immersed in nuances related to castes, I am not really clear on what the actual dispute is. Is it about (1) non-elite vs landowning, (2) traditional vs current status, (3) Indian vs South Asian, and/or (4) peasants or 'tillers + herders'? As I see it, there is so much overlap between the sources that both of you are citing that it seems that it should be pretty easy to come up with a short descriptor that suffices for the lede sentence with the complexities spelled out later in the lede/body. What am I missing? Abecedare (talk) 01:11, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Abecedare: I am on Wikibreak, or at least I am trying to be.
My general sense of these caste or ethnic groups is that without their histories they are meaningless. To say "X is a agricultural/agrarian community" is to say nothing, for until recently nearly everyone in South Asia, except some Muslims, most Jains, most Kayasthas, and all Parsis, perhaps, belonged to agricultural communities. I'm not suggesting a Jats' history going back to their origins from primates in Africa, for that is common to all humans, but what makes them distinctive on the subcontinent.
That is: a group descending from herders in the lower Indus valley in Sind, who lay outside the folds of Hinduism and Islam, were ostracized in both, migrated north, became peasants (i.e. tillers and tenant farmers), succeeded in their new occupations, some even becoming chieftains, rebellious ones, giving the declining Mughal empire a hard time, but enterprising and becoming known for their work ethic, succeeding even more under the British in the much canalled Punjab. Eventually, after the partition, some even became great Urdu poets, and others prime ministers. Don't get me wrong: I'm not being facetious, but attempting to give a feel for the diverse social evolution.
But ultimately it is the Hindu Jats that are problematic as are their adherents on Wikipedia, for the former are a cantankerous community, believers in the patriline and endogamy like no tomorrow, and therefore, misogynists to the hilt. How you characterize such a community in one sentence is anybody's guess. Without their origins, the Hindu, Muslim and Sikh Jats are not even part of one community. Anyway, you could say,

"The Jats are a traditionally peasant community in North India and Pakistan that had descended from herders in the lower Indus valley in Sind and became known for their enterprise in farming and later in other occupations."

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:47, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
PS I might not have been clear in my earlier post. I moved most of my references to: User:Fowler&fowler/India FAR sources 1. You could cite this to a) Asher and Talbot and b) Burton Stein in the tertiary sources; and c) Christopher Bayly and d) Craig Jeffrey in the Secondary. I don't think this constitutes synthesis as they can all be written as independent clauses cited to each source. Anyway, fashion what you think is the most appropriate statement and support it with the most judicious mix of sources. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:22, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
F&f, I am still not seeing what the crux of the dispute is since some of the details in your proposal are already included in the second sentence of the article lede. So is the main issue 'peasants' versus 'agricultural community' or are there other nuances that I am missing? In any case, enjoy your break; since this is a perennial rather than a time-critical issue, it can be dealt with when you are active again, perhaps in a more structured manner. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 19:47, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Abecedare, the discussion is simply about how all Jats (rather than the Jats of a particular region, religion, or country) are summarised in the latest scholarship. Note that Jats are in both India and Pakistan, along with being distributed across three religions. As we are concerned with the lead's first sentence, the glossary entries and other succinct summaries in scholarly/academic tertiary books suit our purpose, per WP:TERTIARY. And I have already provided those sources nearly two weeks ago: [3]. In fact, Fowler&fowler has agreed twice with Sitush's longstanding version of the lead's first sentence: see here an here. But now they have proposed a WP:OR/WP:SYN-based summary, which is not supported by even the sources cited by them, and that has already been discussed earlier in this section. As far as the historical pastoral bit is concerned, it is already mentioned at the appropriate place, i.e. the very second sentence of the lead.

Fowler&fowler, although we have already discussed other points some days back, you have made a new point regarding "what makes them distinctive on the subcontinent." So I am replying to this point. The distinctiveness lies in them being a "landowning" and a 'dominant" caste. That's why you will find many glossary entries and other succinct summaries about Jats in the latest scholarship using these two terms (along with the usual "agricultural community/caste" bit), so much so that many summarise them as simply a "landowning caste". As I have already provided such sources, I am explaining these two terms here. They use the factual "landowning" bit, as this has been central to many aspects of Jats' lives and has also affected other communities living around them. It played a prominent role in their political/social/economical dominance as well as the negative aspects, like harassment of marginalised groups. As far as "dominant" is concerned, I guess "dominant caste" is the only POV that has become mainstream for Indian castes/communities, so much so that only a few latest scholarly sources bother to even explain this term.[2] So if you want distinctiveness, then these two are the terms for that purpose, and they are well-supported by the relevant sources.

Anyway, the purpose of this post is to explain to Abecedare the issue at hand, rather than purposing any change in the lead's first sentence, as I have no issue with the long-standing version of Sitush, although the "landowning" bit is as much encyclopedic to the lead's first sentence as anything. But as I have explained previously, I obviously oppose your WP:OR/WP:SYN-based summary. Thanks. - NitinMlk (talk) 20:20, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Abecedare: What I had proposed was not a replacement for the first sentence but for the first sentence and half. i.e. it would say, "The Jats are a traditionally peasant community in North India and Pakistan that had descended from herders in the lower Indus valley in Sind and became known for their enterprise in farming and later in other occupations. Jats migrated north into the Punjab region in late medieval times, and subsequently into the Delhi Territory, northeastern Rajputana, and the western Gangetic Plain in the 17th and 18th centuries. Of Muslim, Sikh, and Hindu faiths, they are now found mostly in the Pakistani provinces of Sindh and Punjab and the Indian states of Punjab, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh and Rajasthan.
This I'm sure the Hindu-Jat-POV-pushers on this page would not like. They want to fantasize they are landowners and kings, and give not thought to their long history of killing females from the fetus, to infancy, and even adulthood were they to marry outside the patriline. The most cantankerous the OBCs in India they are. The Muslim Jats or the Sikh Jats don't care at all about this unity with the Hindu Jats. They have nothing in common as anyone who know the poetry of Faiz knows. Anyway, as I explained earlier, I have no interest in editing this article. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:40, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
The problem as you might have guessed is that it punctures their fantasy of Kshatriyahood. Earlier they used to fantasize they came from Europe, until the evidence for their lower Indus valley herding origins became overwhelming. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:43, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
I came here at the invitation of Sitush, so it is an insult to them and to me to wave Sitush as some kind of magic wand. My first edit was about disabusing this page of its fantasies about herding in the Dneiper River grasslands, and eventually giving India the second infusion of Aryanhood. See here and read the edit summary. I made 80 edits thereafter and except for the first sentence and fairy tales of the rajas and maharajas, everything else in the article is what I wrote in those 80 edits. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:59, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
If I ever have to edit the OBC pages, I would much rather go back to the Kurmi or the Yadav, or edit the Koeri. They are much more grounded communities. They haven't engaged in gendercide. They are all OBCs like the Hindu Jats. They all have "non-elite," in the first sentence. I don't think I have edited the Koeri.
In any case, I am on Wikibreak, and when appearing here, am editing Mandell Creighton, a peaceful late-Victorian historian of the medieval popes and a cleric of the Church of England. I want to be left out of all this. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:19, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
The problem with caste on WP is that when it is not the non-elite attempting to move up, it is the so-called elite trying to put them down. See the damage done to Kurmi in the last few weeks here. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:04, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Here the two versions side-by-side:

Version A Version B
The Jat people are a traditionally agricultural community in Northern India and Pakistan. Originally pastoralists in the lower Indus river-valley of Sindh, Jats migrated north into the Punjab region in late medieval times, and subsequently into the Delhi Territory, northeastern Rajputana, and the western Gangetic Plain in the 17th and 18th centuries. Of Muslim, Sikh, and Hindu faiths, they are now found mostly in the Pakistani provinces of Sindh and Punjab and the Indian states of Punjab, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh and Rajasthan. The Jats are a traditionally peasant community in North India and Pakistan that had descended from herders in the lower Indus valley in Sind and became known for their enterprise in farming and later in other occupations. Jats migrated north into the Punjab region in late medieval times, and subsequently into the Delhi Territory, northeastern Rajputana, and the western Gangetic Plain in the 17th and 18th centuries. Of Muslim, Sikh, and Hindu faiths, they are now found mostly in the Pakistani provinces of Sindh and Punjab and the Indian states of Punjab, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh and Rajasthan.

The problem I am having is that while I am supposed to see either (1) projection of the Indian POV versus the pan-South Asian POV in one version, or (2) something that "Hindu-Jat-POV-pushers" won't like in the other, I simply don't see any POV or substantive differences between the two versions! As a sanity check, I'm pinging some editors @RegentsPark, Bishonen, Vanamonde93, and DougWeller: who, like me, have a layperson's understanding of the topic without being steeped in caste-issues to see if they see it any different. Also courtesy pinging Sitush who has been mentioned by both parties. Abecedare (talk) 21:11, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

PS: For clarity, I don't expect the editors I pinged to read any of the above discussion; I am just requesting that you read the two versions in the above Table and comment if you see anything that would make either version unacceptable or far superior to the other (fwiw, I don't). Abecedare (talk) 21:18, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

I've stared at the two versions for a while and am a loss to see any substantial difference or POV difference. (I haven't read any of the long discussion above so perhaps have missed some nuance?)--RegentsPark (comment) 00:49, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Thanks RP for the input. So where do we go from here? IMO, there are two possible routes:
  1. F&f and NM can use WP:DRN to have a mediated discussion, where the differences can be hammered out and lede language refined (I am not even suggesting WP:3O, WP:RFC or WP:NPOVN since I doubt that the feedback there, from editors who spend a few minutes to review the debate, will be any diffierent from RP's or mine)
  2. Since the differences in POV F&f and NM are trying to convey are not coming across in the (necessarily concise) proposed lede sentences, don't spend time fiddling with a word/phrase or two in the lede to try to capture the nuance. Instead, clearly spell out what you want to convey in the body of the article (with sources, of course!). Remember, the purpose of an encyclopedia is educational, not expressive, and that purpose is served only if the reader actually understands the intended meaning and not merely when the writer is (self-)satisfied with how they explained it.
Abecedare (talk) 15:26, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
There are really no issues here. I have no interest in editing this article. As I have explained I wrote most of the reliable portions of the article starting in mid-October 2011 and ending in mid November. Sitush edit it many times in 2011, 2012, and 2013 (in that year 65 times in one day). He did not touch the "non-elite litters and herders" bit. The the talk page noise from the Hindu POV pushers, the defenders of the grandiloquence of the Jats on Wikipedia became too much, so in one edit of 2014, he changed it to "agricultural community." without suggesting it was of his making.
I really have no interest in editing this page for the same reason I have had no interest in editing the Rajput pages, or the Gurjar pages. All are pastmasters of female infanticide and fetuside, who between them have caused 75 million females in India to go missing by being killed as new borns, by neglect, or by selective screening before birth. It was recorded in the first censuses of british India and in that of 2011. 150 years of a free hand at killing females. No interest. Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:41, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
So, summing up, my original revert was in error. I apologize to all. I have now taken a look at the history of the page and seen that Sitush implemented what he saw was the happy medium there (I being away from WP at the time). Thanks for going the extra mile @Abecedare: Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:08, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Note: I have restored the ECP now that the full-protection has expired. I trust the latter will not be needed to preserve the status quo for the lede para till the discussion is concluded. Abecedare (talk) 13:03, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

they are traditionally non elite and not agriculutural please do not write unrefrenced data or remove non elite from kurmi page also AkshayTomarjaat (talk) 08:19, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
References

References

  1. ^ a b Bayly, Susan (2001) [1999]. "Glossary". Caste, Society and Politics in India from the Eighteenth Century to the Modern Age. Cambridge University Press. p. 385. ISBN 978-0-521-79842-6. Jat: title of north India's major non-elite 'peasant' caste.
  2. ^ Deliège, Robert (2011). "Caste, Class, and Untouchability". In Clark-Decès, Isabelle (ed.). A Companion to the Anthropology of India. Wiley-Blackwell. p. 51. doi:10.1002/9781444390599. ISBN 978-1-4051-9892-9. To be dominant, according to the Indian anthropologist M. N. Srinivas, a caste had to own a substantial part of the soil of a locality, to be numerically important, and to thus control a portion of an area's economic and political resources. The dominant caste, as the main producer of agricultural goods, was central to village life, where it reproduced the power of the king. In actual fact, Brahman priests often depended upon the cultivators' offerings, and thus ranked lower than the owners of the land. In parts of India, such as the Tanjore district studied by André Béteille (1966a) and Kathleen Gough (1960), the Brahmans were indeed castes of landowners, but that was not the case everywhere. For instance, some castes with relatively low ritual statuses, like the Kallars, came to dominate areas like the Ramnad and Madurai districts. Everywhere in India, in fact, there were large castes of non-Brahman cultivators-owners that fit this definition of "dominance," including the Jats and the Rajputs in north India, the Patidars in Gujarat, the Marathas in Maharashtra, the Kammas and Reddis of Andhra Pradesh, the Okkaligas and Coorgs in Karnataka, the Nayars in Kerala, and the Vellalars in Tamil Nadu. All of these castes, and many others, combined a clearly marked presence in whole areas with a certain numerical strength and a relatively high ritual status. For the most part, these castes have been able to maintain their importance in contemporary political life, and have become active both politically and economically.

Jats were traditionally Non elite

Jats are traditionally non elite peasents, they are agriculutral only in present POV. Check all the refrences provided plus if you are still doing discrimination remove non elite from Kurmi page also. AjitKurmi (talk) 08:22, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

This is true, but I am unable to help. Jat POV-pushers on this page have ensured that the edit stating this fact which was in the article for a long time does not go in. They do this by overloading their edits with a surfeit of counterfeit, i.e. poor quality sources. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:26, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
The second sentence says, "Originally pastoralists in the lower Indus valley of Sind," but what is "pastoralists" except "herders." So the Jats were the only instances of elite herders in history. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

User:ThethPunjabi's edits

Regarding User:ThethPunjabi's this edit, irrespective of the file's misleading title, File:Painting of Jats from the Punjab Plains.jpg was first published in a book authored by a British civil servant and mentions the subjects as "Two Sikh cultivators." On page no. 157, the author again describes them as "Two Sikh cultivators", but also makes a separate comment that "Sikh cultivators are mainly Jats". The website, from which the user copy-pasted it, further WP:SYNTHESIS that information and mentions that the subjects were "probably Jats". So the painting is not even of the Jats. And in any case, two unknown, seminude persons with twigs in their hands cannot represent the present-day's diverse population of around 40 million. So I will revert that edit.

Similarly, with this edit, the user has introduced a large number of unreliable sources, including those from the unreliable and blacklisted jatland.com, e.g. the first seven sources of the edit are all from Jatland or Jat authors listed there. None of those nonscholarly sources are reliable for history/caste-related details. The eighth source (authored by Gurcharan Singh Gill) is also a non-HISTRS, as it is authored by a mathematician who "have been studying Jat Clans of Punjab, India as a hobby." It was also self-published by the author because its publisher – Indian Family History Society – seems to be described by the author as his "Personal Website" (see "Contact info"). So it is also an unreliable source. The 9th source is an unreliable WP:UGC and the last source is an unreliable Raj-era source – see WP:RAJ. Some of them have already been removed, and I will remove the remaining ones. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:35, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 October 2022

change "According to Amiya Samanta, the marital race was" to "According to Amiya Samanta, the martial race was" ChromeBones (talk) 18:13, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done Good catch, I didn't even see it in your edit request at first glance. - Aoidh (talk) 18:19, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 November 2022

2604:3D08:2D80:8F0:6005:1C15:C950:A15 (talk) 00:47, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Add new Jat clan: Maan/Mann

Link to wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maan_(surname)

 Not done: Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Colonestarrice (talk) 03:00, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Khokhars are also classified as a Jat clan

Who ever has the authority to edit this page, please add Khokhar in the list of Jats... Khokhars also belong to the agricultural occupation traditionally Wallstreet911 (talk) 09:18, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Spelling of jat

The real spelling of jat is jatt . The jats are from Haryana and jatts are from punjab 117.222.218.136 (talk) 16:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Lakra

Lakra is jat surname in Mundka village of Delhi. 

42.111.19.122 (talk) 16:43, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 December 2022

Jat surname Lakra 42.111.19.122 (talk) 16:38, 30 December 2022 (UTC)one of jat surname in Mundka village in Delhi is Lakra.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Lemonaka (talk) 18:23, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 January 2023

93.44.57.202 (talk) 20:31, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I want to edit because i am a descendant of first jatt , I know most

 Not done This is not the right page to request additional user rights.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 20:36, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
Please note that Wikipedia is not interested in who you are, where you are from, what race/religion/community/caste you are, what you "know", what you have been told, or even what you have found out.
Wikipedia is only interested in what has already been published in reliable, independent sources published by a body with a reputation for fact-checking - No blogs, no self-published sources, no bodies with a conflict of interest, no promotional sites no vanity publishers, no predatory publishers.
These sources must be properly cited in order to support any information added to, or changed in our pages, so the information can be verified as true in the future.
The responsibility for providing citations is solely on whoever adds or changes any information, to provide references from reliable sources that support those additions or changes.
You are repeatedly failing to do this, which is why your previous edits have been, and will continue to be, reverted, until you do add proper references.
Please see Help:Referencing for beginners for the "how to" guide. - Arjayay (talk) 20:39, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

please add sejwal clan as it is a classified jat clan

Who are sejwal by caste? Sejwal (सेजवाल)[1][2] Sejwar (सेजवार) Shejwal (शेजवाल) is a Jat Gotra. These Jats live in Rajasthan in Delhi and in Uttar Pradesh Amitsejwal (talk) 07:22, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 January 2023

According to Santokh S. Anant, Jats, Rajputs, and Thakurs are at the top of the caste hierarchy in most of the north Indian villages, surpassing Brahmins. Assigning Vaishya varna to Jats, he notes that they perform the dual duties of Kshatriyas and Vaishyas in the Punjab region.[1] Rohanchauhan05 (talk) 07:10, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Santokh S Anant is renowned Indian Historian and anthropologist. Rohanchauhan05 (talk) 07:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lemonaka (talk) 09:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Add sejwal clan in jat clans

Please give full information about jat and their clans Amitsejwal (talk) 21:24, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Sejwal (rajasthan, delhi)[citation needed] * Lashari * Sejwal (Jat clan)Sejwal * Sejwal * Sejwal

. Amitsejwal (talk) 21:30, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Please remove the wrong information about category of jats.

jats are obc in central list only in rajasthan( except bharatpur and dholpur). And obc online state list of other states so please edit this information. Thank you Hugh Wales (talk) 03:59, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Please add mohar مہار as jat cast

there is large population of mohar jats in sialkot norwal and gujrat districts of pak punjab 111.119.190.41 (talk) 17:20, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Recent edit

Chariotrider555, you made a mishmash by your attempt of combining two different sources. Irfan Habib's existing source clearly and completely summarizes his latest view about the Varna of Jats. But you have cited his old source (from the 1971 Punjab History Conference) to present your own analysis of how he reached his conclusions in the latest source! That's WP:OR.

Note that Habib is quoting multiple primary sources in his 1971 presidential address for explaining Jats' migration and one of their reasons to adopt Sikhism. He is not quoting them for explaining their Varna. And there is a reason for that. Al-Biruni has indeed described Vasudeva and his son (Krishna) as Jats (see page 401 of his book),[2][3] but that will make Jats Yadava by origin! This explains why Habib only cited (rather than quoting) Al-Biruni while describing the varna of Jats. And we can do only that much to avoid misrepresenting Habib. And I have done that in this edit.

Similarly, the quote from the book of the British Raj army officer (James Skinner) is not cited by him while describing his latest views on Jat Varna. So we also cannot quote that fringe view which the army officer quoted from some common people in Hansi in 1825. In fact, Habib himself completely opposes that view, as he describes Jats as a pastoral tribe who had no connection with Hindus before settling down as agriculturists. BTW, arise out of something means originate because of something: "If something arises from a particular situation, or arises out of it, it is created or caused by the situation.". The source states that "they arose out of the wedlock between a Kshatriya and a Vaishya woman", i.e. they originated from the marriage between a Kshatriya and a Vaishya woman.

In short, we use the latest sources of a scholar to summarise their views, rather than combining them out of context with their old sources. If you have any further queries or suggestions, please provide them here.

References

References

  1. ^ Anant, Santokh S. (1966). Cothran, Tilman C.; Grigsby, Lucy C.; Jarrett, Thomas D.; Bacote, Clarence A.; et al. (eds.). "Inter-Caste Differences in Personality Pattern as a Function of Socialization". Phylon. 27 (2). Clark Atlanta University: 146. doi:10.2307/273958. JSTOR 273958.
  2. ^ Sachau, Edward C. (2000) [1910]. Alberuni's India: An Account of the Religion, Philosophy, Literature, Geography, Chronology, Astronomy, Customs, Laws and Astrology of India about A.D. 1030. Vol. I. Routledge. p. 401. ISBN 978-0-415-24497-8. A messenger of this kind is, according to the beliefs of the Hindus, Vâsudeva, who was sent the last time in human shape, being called Vâsudeva. It was a time when the giants were numerous on earth and the earth was full of their oppression; it tottered, being hardly able to bear the whole number of them, and it trembled from the vehemence of their treading. Then there was born a child in the city of Mathurâ to Vâsudeva by the sister of Kaṁsa, at that time ruler of the town. They were a Jatt family, cattle-owners, low Śûdra people.
  3. ^ Ahmad, Qeyamuddin, ed. (1993) [1988]. India by Al-Biruni (2nd ed.). National Book Trust. p. 185. ISBN 978-81-237-0289-6. A messenger of this kind is, according to the belief of the Hindus, Vasudeva, who was sent the last time in human shape, being called Vasudeva. It was a time when the giants were numerous on earth and the earth was full of their oppression; it tottered, being hardly able to bear the whole number of them, and it trembled from the vehemence of their treading. Then there was bom a child in the city of Mathura to Vasudeva by the sister of Kamsa, at that time ruler of the town. They were a Jatt family, cattle-owners, low Sudra people.

- NitinMlk (talk) 22:56, 18 March 2023 (UTC) NitinMlk (talk) 23:19, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Makes sense. Chariotrider555 (talk) 13:46, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Addition of casts into Clan

Kajla Shivach Rathi 103.223.9.114 (talk) 10:50, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023

103.223.9.114 (talk) 10:53, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Addition of Prominent Casts into Jat clan 1.Kajla 2.Shivach 3.Rathi

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 22:19, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

massagetae aka malecha jat

Jat people come in the Malech tribe, there is no mention of them in Rigveda, nor in the Persian religious text Avesta, even Pashtuns are also mentioned but Jat is not there, in fact the Sanskrit word jatil/jata/jut (complex) means complicated, Vedic King Cyrus of South Iran also had a war with these jat people,as soon as cyrus the great was defeated by these Massagetae aka Malech Jats so after this jats came to today's Sistan and then they got mixed with the some other Hindu lower castes here .& The Spartans have not described the color of the old Persian kings as white fair, they were almost like today's ordinary Rajasthani. राजा वीर (talk) 14:04, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 May 2023

Add 'Langrial' in the clan section. 2400:ADC5:40E:C200:6D75:6B01:CD9B:F1BA (talk) 13:31, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:37, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 June 2023

Please add 'Sahota' in the list of clans. There already exists a 'Sahota' Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahota) which correlates with the 'Jats' page and states it as a Jat clan. 80.7.52.111 (talk) 19:50, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done 𝙳𝚛𝚎𝚊𝚖𝚁𝚒𝚖𝚖𝚎𝚛 𝚍𝚒𝚜𝚌𝚞𝚜𝚜 01:46, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Why no mention of Dalit status?

Jatts are a dalit caste. Why is there no mention of this anywhere? 103.176.184.244 (talk) 14:04, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Malech jats aka Massa getae

Jats are the tribal people of the Mlechha region. राजा वीर (talk) 14:09, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

What is the source of this claim? Jat origin has not been confirmed, there are a lot of theories claiming foregin as well as indigenous origin. Rockarmy (talk) 19:19, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Jats are Shudra Malech

Gaur brahmin (talk) 04:23, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

This is hilarious. Absurd claim. Jats are an agricultural - warrior class people. They do not come under varna system imposed by self-proclaimed superior brahmins(like yourself). Rockarmy (talk) 19:21, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 July 2023

Maangatt is a prominent Jatt Sikh clan from the region of Doraha, Ludhiana with many villages only belonging to their surname. 223.178.211.132 (talk) 12:49, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 14:23, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Chattha

Chattha Jutt/Jat clan is missing, this clan has more than 100 villages & town in Pakistan Punjab Chattha468c (talk) 21:35, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Jay gillette de∆ta

✌ Haryanajoin (talk) 05:59, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

The Jat caste named Tomar is not related to any ancient kuru dynasty, it is related to a massageate which described as mleccha caste,tomar jats and other jats were the descendants of the relatives of their famous queen tomyris, first they slowly slipped/shifted into Khurasan(after defeat of cyrus the great) , then today's sistan and baluchistan, then after Arab attacks over sindh dynasty(712ad) these jats come to today's bist doab(punjab) and haryana,Rajasthan range! Jats have nothing to do with the ancient Kuru dynasty of Haryana.

Jats are derived from the massageate which also named as mleccha tribe of Central Asia, jats fled to Haryana after the invasion of Sindh baluchistan sistan by the Arabs(caliphate army) , many Jats had already become Muslims when they went to participate in the battle of the camel ! & many Jats Fearing from arabs came towards todays Haryana & bist doab when kasim brutely attacked Sindh dynasty(at 712ad)Haryanajoin (talk) 08:08, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 August 2023

There is a Sub-section named 'List of clans' in this article. In that list, please replace the existing Tomar with Tomar (Jat clan). SurajMal sir (talk) 17:57, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

@SurajMal sir - Done. MaplesyrupSushi (talk) 01:17, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 August 2023

Add Sheoran, Sehrawat, Lakra surnames in jat clan. Sheoran surname jats are mostly found in Charki dadri side of Haryana and Sehrawat, Lakra surname jats are mostly found in Delhi villages like Bakkarwala and Mundaka. 2406:16C0:108:9FF0:94F4:CCD9:AD0A:38D2 (talk) 18:16, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 18:48, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Add topic

Add Sheoran surname in clans of jat people. Sheoran is a jat surname mostly found in haryana. Ishi sheoran (talk) 17:59, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@Ishi sheoran - In my opinion, only Jat clans which are notable (by having their own dedicated WP article) should be listed, WP:NOTEVERYTHING MaplesyrupSushi (talk) 21:41, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Added in clan system

The Jat people are subdivided into various clans, some of which overlap with other groups, notably the Rors.[4] The clans are listed below: @Fylindfotberserk Balwant Chopra (talk) 16:12, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Genetics

An interesting section I came looking for but was missing is Genetics. There has been a lot of literature on this, would be great if some of it could be covered here with citations.

Just a suggestion for those interested. 60.243.27.118 (talk) 08:50, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Would require high-quality sources and a skilled/non-biased editor to create such a section on this article. ThethPunjabi (talk) 18:41, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
We generally avoid genetics in caste articles; there's a long term consensus regarding the same! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 07:25, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
Consensus can stay in place but you can argue any community of people under the British Raj, even recognised distinct ethnicities were stratified into castes. While I do understand they variably fall under a "caste", they much more often are simply described as a people or community as the lead describes them. Hence I find no reason to reject the inclusion of reliably sourced studies on this page. Willing to hear any objections. Regards, Foxhound03 (talk) 19:32, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 October 2023

Change Rath to Rathi in clans. Rath page is some pastoral clan of pakistan not jats. Praduman25370 (talk) 22:35, 5 October 2023

 Done Now a red link, feel free to write an article for it. NotAGenious (talk) 12:59, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 October 2023

Bhadiar Sangha Hundal 2A02:A459:35B1:1:2CE9:303D:AE9E:540E (talk) 16:19, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 16:26, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 October 2023

Please add Chattha/Chatha in the tribe list, this is the biggest tribe in Gujranwala division in Pakistan

 Not done Please provide a reliable source that supports the change you would like to see in the article. RegentsPark (comment) 23:18, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 November 2023

Could remove duplicate footnotes 'd', 'e' and 'f' and replace with 'a', 'b' and 'c'. 2A02:2F00:C217:5900:BD59:B0BD:D441:3E99 (talk) 07:27, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

 Done Thank you! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 07:55, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Merge "List of Jats" in main article

It's necessary to make sure to add mentioned (List of Jats) wiki page in this category@MaplesyrupSushi 61.0.57.165 (talk) 13:25, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Canada should be added as a region with a significant population

800,000 (2.12% of Canada) is Sikh, which usually almost always implies that they are Jatts with a margin of error of at least 1% as most of these immigrants are from Jat communities. This should be mentioned. 2605:8D80:407:1CAC:2CF8:78BB:1BFD:3B13 (talk) 14:49, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 November 2023

Sodhi is a jat and khatri mixed clan, so I request that you guys put it on here Singhpbx1 (talk) 00:13, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 00:31, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLG2dtz9uP0
https://www.geni.com/surnames/sodhi
https://www.answers.com/Q/Is_sodhi_a_Sikh_jatt_last_name
https://sikhi.fandom.com/wiki/All_Jat_Sikh_Surnames
all links give evidence to prove Sodhi is a Jatt and also Khatri caste. Singhpbx1 (talk) 22:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 February 2024

I am writing to kindly request the addition of "Nain" to the clan list of Jats on Wikipedia. 103.214.60.47 (talk) 09:26, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Please provide reliable source for the same; read WP:RS, WP:V. Ekdalian (talk) 10:54, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 February 2024

Add Godara in the "List Of Clans" MohitChaudhary07 (talk) 13:24, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Shadow311 (talk) 17:01, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Godara is a populer clan of Jats.Godara Clan Albertx07 (talk) 18:09, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Add "Godara" in Clans list.

Godara Clan is a very popular Jat Clan, which resides in the states of Rajasthan, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh, Delhi.Modern book written about the history of Bikaner (Rajasthan), in which complete description of Godara Jats has been given, Page No. 116 of 417, 2nd paragraph, Godara's Mentioned in row 5 of the page. eBook source :- https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.321079 Albertx07 (talk) 08:47, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I understand that they may be a part of the Jat community, but we need to follow our policies. As mentioned on my talk page, please provide modern source by a reliable author! This is a Raj era source; we don't use such sources; read WP:RAJ! That's the reason I had mentioned the term 'modern'; we need modern scholarly sources. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 11:24, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Godara is an important part of Jat Clans, many books have been written about them. As a source, I can show the book written by Author Manisha Chaudhary, and the book "Godara Vanshavali Evm Itihas" written by Rajkumar Godara, there is evidence of Godara Jats, but they are identified from their history, hence it is based on the old history. I can share the links of modern books written by many authors but they are writing history of Godara Jats. Apart from this, what are the sources, can you tell me, I will share. If books writen by authors in this modern era mentioning history of Godara Clan, is verifiable. Then I can share! If it isn't. There're no sources available! As per Wikipedia policies. There're many living person, who are politicians, athletes. is it acceptable? As a source.. Albertx07 (talk) 11:56, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Yes, please share a reliable source by a modern author (post Raj era). Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 13:11, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
a book named "Nomadic Narratives" written by Dr. Tanuja Kothiyal, in this book there's a brief context describing about Godara Jats. I'm sending you 2 links from different websites!
Link-1 : Nomadic Narratives (Complete book uploaded on this website, to access you can visit)
Link-2  : Godara Jats Part where book "Nomadic Narratives" Describes about Godara Jats! Albertx07 (talk) 14:35, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 Done! Ekdalian (talk) 15:00, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Social Status in Haryana And Punjab

A short upgrade in social status which is not included In Punjab and Haryana, where they form a dominant caste, the Jats did not enjoy any reservation benefits I request to add this respectively Truthfindervert (talk) 13:56, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

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