Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/The Sweet Escape Tour/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted 04:20, 5 January 2008.

The Sweet Escape Tour[edit]

I feel the article has enough material required. It not only has all the dates, but also has the important events which took place. I hope you too feel that the article meets the criteria. Thank You. Indianescence (talk) 09:42, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Oppose Honestly, I see alot of problems with the list, but I'll only mention a few to avoid piling it on:

Updated rationale behind my oppose: the subject does not seem to warrant a list, and the shape/content of the article verifies that, I think. I recommend renominating at FAC. Drewcifer (talk) 22:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead is way too short.
  •  Done
  • The "Stefani's Setlist" is formatted badly all over the place ("setlist" shouldn't be capitalized, two songs have the double asteriks for some reason, things like "(album version/reggae remix)" and "accoustic" aren't backed up by the source, the source should be in the references section, not in this section, the note should be footnoted somehow, etc.)
  •  Done
Looking better, though the in-line citations in the section headers isn't good. You can put that source directly under the references section in a "General" subsection. Just use the {{cite web}} template but not the <ref></ref> tags. For an example, see Nine Inch Nails discography. You should also make a note in the reference somewhere that it is the source of the set list/tour dates information.
Looks good.
  • The "Special notes" section is odd. I'm not sure what makes these notes so special. Also the writing in it generally poor (why are quotations preceded with a "-"?) Also citations should come directly after punctuation, without a space. This.[1] Not this. [2]
  • Partially done. I have been observing the websites for quite some time to see what all things were the highlights of the show and i shortlisted on these events i have mentioned. People might not find these special, but the sources do. I have removed the hyphens.Indianescence (talk) 12:55, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The gallery comes out of nowhere. Is this one of those tours where she changes outfits after every song? Were the costumes consistent between tour dates? Do these pictures serve any purpose here other than to look pretty? A bit of text would be helpful.
  • The "Tour dates" section table is poorly formatted as well. The North America heading is a different color than the others. Consecutive cells with the same info can be merged. (ie. |rowspan="3"|United States for the first of 3 instances of United States.) the notes should be footnoted as well.
  • I am not sure of this. Merging all the "United States" etc. would look very odd. Rules are rules, but we should change them according to what suits the best. Indianescence (talk) 12:55, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There's no rule that says like cells should be merged, this is just a stylistic suggestion, based on what most tables look like, and based on common sense (it's redundant to keep saying the same thing over and over again).
Looking much better! Along the same lines, you may want to do the same with repeated city names (Irvine, Santa Barbara, etc), but I could go either way on that.
  • The citations are poorly formatted. the URLs shouldn't be visible. I would highly recommend using WP:citation templates, since that does alot of the work for you.
  •  Done
  • A few more external links would be nice. Any reviews?
  • I also have some broader, content-wise issues, but I'll leave those be for the moment. Drewcifer (talk) 10:01, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Looking much better! I also made a few edits myself, since they're just easier to do then explain. Feel free to revert it, but I think it's an improvement. As for a few other concerns I have:

  • As I said above, it might be a good idea to merge similar City/Venue cells in the Tour dates section. For instance two consecutive Irvine concerts, and two consecutive concerts at Wembley Arena.
  •  Done
thanks for the note on my talk page. Never mind on this one: it seems like a very broad fact that would probably be impossible/difficult to source properly.
  • I don't know if I mentioned this above, but I would highly recommend using WP:Citation templates, since the in-line citations are generally a little bit inconsistent stylistically.
  • I don't feel that the current style is bad. I mean, many other Featured article use this method of citation. There seems to be no problem with this method. The references state all the important elements (i.e. site name, retrieving date, site title etc.). If all that is there, i don't feel it should be a problem. Indianescence (talk) 04:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What I meant to say wasn't that the style is bad: you are correct, that format of author, link, title, etc is typical in most FAs, but most FAs do so via citation templates. My recommendation was to put the same exact information into a citation template rather than writing it out yourself, namely because it formats things exactly the same each time, as opposed to doing it by hand (which you've done so far), which makes the style a little inconsistent between the citations. That said, the template was purely a suggestion, and are obviously not a barrier to FL.
  • The three canceled shows in the Tour dates section should be footnoted (in the same fashion as the footnote I redid in the set list section) and/or color the cell differently and add a foot note about it at the end of the section. I think either or both would be a good solution to having "Note: Concert Cancelled." Also, along the same lines, the later two canceled shows should be given a source, like the first one.
  •  Done
The last two cancellations still need to be sourced.
  • Also, like I mentioned above, things like "(album version/reggae remix)" and "accoustic" aren't backed up by the source given.
  •  Done, Now that you got it is a special case as the song in reality exists as a hybrid of album version and reggae remix. In short, you can say its a part of the song's name. It does not need sourcing. You can check the song's article for it.
what I mean to say is where in the source does it mention which version of the songs were played? I couldn't find anything, so going by the source you've given, for all I know it could be the album version. This might be fairly easy to rectify with another source, however, one that explicitly says which version, or at least that it wasn't the album version, or maybe even a few adjectives describing the song as "accoustic" or "reggae".
The source for "The Real Thing" clearly mentions,"an a capella version of “The Real Thing”, in which she..." As far as "Now That You Got It" is concerned, i have mentioned about it above. All the other songs were album versions, as you said. Indianescence (talk) 13:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm still not sure about the image gallery. Not that it shouldn't be there, but there is no justification for it. Or, more specifically, the text should justify the use of a gallery/images in someway. As it is, it seems tacked on for no reason. For instance the section mentions the Kuala Lumpur concert, are there any images from that?
  • No, there are currently no free images for the kuala lumpur show.
I found two photos from the show: [1] and [2]. Not so hard. They're not the best photos, but one of them would be nice. They're CC-liscensed though, so if you need some help with that let me know.
  • Lastly, and I know this seems like a large thing to ask, but it would be great to have some reviews to go along with the Tour dates table. For instance, if there's a review of the June 18 show in Sacramento (which it appeaers there is from a souce you used), it would be great to have that review linked to in an additional column. Obviously not every show has a review to go along with it, but I bet a high-profile act like Stefani would have tons of reviews floating around. Drewcifer (talk) 07:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would not like that. There are many reviews but the number of shows are much more than that. It would look highly awkward to have them in between. I feel they are better in the critical reception section. Indianescence (talk) 14:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
After a little bit of research, and toying around, it seems like there's definately enough reviews to make such an addition worthwhile. Take a look at my sandbox: I did only a little bit of digging and found plenty of reviews. That said, most of the reviews are obviously mostly from the first leg of the tour, and mostly from the states, but I'm sure with a little bit more digging around more could be found. Mostly what I did was just go to various fan sites and looked around for some links. Drewcifer (talk) 09:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, the critical reviews section is a little bit too positive. After skimming through a bunch of reviews, I would definately say that the tour was generally well received, but I did notice a few negative things here and there. Not so much completely negative reviews, but a couple reviews mentioned some not-so-perfect stuff. In the interest of neutrality, I think at least one or two negative quotes should be included, to balance things out a bit. Drewcifer (talk) 22:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done Added two negative reviews. So now can i say that currently the two concerns are - An image of Malaysian show and adding reviews section to the "Tour Date" table?Indianescence (talk) 08:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Looking better all the time! To sum things up a bit, I believe the only things that are still a concern to me are:

  • Adding some reviews. Feel free to copy+paste the stuff from my sandbox, though you should add blank cells to all the rows without a review. I would encourage you to keep looking. I know there's more out there. After your notice on my talk page, I did some more searching and found like 5 or 6 more easily. One thing that's been working for me is googleing "City Name" "Sweet Escape Tour" review. Though I'm not sure how well that would work for concerts in non-english countries. You may want to ask some help from some multi-lingual wikipedians. You might also want to ask some of the moderators of no-doubt/gwen stefani fansites. I've actually had alot of luck with asking those kind of people for information.
 Done I will surely search as many as i can.
  • Also, I came across something that seems very important to add: [3]. Namely, I would definately say mention of Akon and the whole Verizon Wireless thing is notable. I would also think it is important to mention any other sponsors of the concert, even if they didn't back out or anything.
 Done Indianescence (talk) 13:08, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also came across something else pretty important: [4]. Not only that, but this [5] mentions a bunch more bands. What's going on here!
 Done Gym Class Heroes was already there. Others i have added.
Looking better, but I wonder if this information might be presented better. Namely, I think another column the tour dates section would be good, describing who opened what show. I suggest this for a few reasons: first, weren't there some shows were both Akon and Sovereign opened? Second, weren't there some shows were nobody opened? And lastly, "Cansei de Ser Sexy and Brick & Lace also joined Stefani on various shows." is a bit vague. Exactly which shows? Of course, what I'm suggesting would further complicate your life: at that point an additional column would make the table pretty wide. Which leads me to another suggestion/question: why are the column widths as wide as they are? There's alot of empty space in all the columns. If you slimmed thigns down a bit, that might make some room for another column.
 Done will this do for you?
  • A reference for the cancellation of the last two shows. Here's a good source: [6]
 Done Huge thanks for this link.
  • Also, I still have reservations about the lead. I'd say you should expand it a bit more. Try mentioning the opening acts.
  • Also, some contextualization might be nice. Isn't this her second solo tour? And didn't she keep bringing up the fact that No Doubt is getting back together soon and that this is her last solo tour? I'd say a little section in the beginning discussing all these things would be great. This should also be mentioned in the lead.
This required a new section or i can include this in "Notable events" section? Indianescence (talk) 06:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would recommend a new section, preferably the first section. But I'll leave that decision up to you.
I need a name for this section as soon as possible. Any suggestions? Indianescence (talk) 17:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • An image of the Kuala Lampur concert.
  • Switching over to citation templates.

The last two aren't do-or-die though. I just I recommend doing them. Drewcifer (talk) 10:03, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strictly speaking I wouldn't consider this a list. It's a (rather messy) article about a tour, which contains some list sections. In my humble opinion, this ought to be aiming for Featured Article not Featured List. --kingboyk (talk) 17:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're right: the more work that goes into the article, the less of a list it becomes. Furthermore, I don't think that the ideal form for an article of the Tour is a list anyways. I was kind of waiting to bring that up after the last few issues were resolved. Drewcifer (talk) 19:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Even i had the confusion whether the article should be FA or FLC. I posted the question here [7] and this is the reply i got:-
Frankly, I think all the examples I cited (as well as the Sweet Escape Tour article Indianescence mentioned) should all be featured lists, and that if FLC doesn't currently accomodate them, it should expand so that it does. Raul654 (talk) 16:10, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Therefore i nominated it for FLC. Indianescence (talk) 13:10, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. I suppose the way the article looked before all the extensive work on it was much more along the lines of a list, but now I would compare the article to a typical article about for an album: a few lists here (tracklist/setlist, tour dates/charts, etc) surrounded by mostly prose. You may want to ask Raul to take another look at the article. Drewcifer (talk) 23:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is there anything else other than expansion of the lead left? Indianescence (talk) 19:24, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Looking great! I would say that Introduction is a fine title for the section, unless anyone else has any better ideas. The Opening Act(s) column looks great, though I do have a few further suggestions. It does seem a little bit short, though: some additional information and some quotes might help round it out. I came across plenty of good quotes from stefani about No Doubt getting back together again, the birth of her child, her child being present at a show or two, the fact that she was only planning on making one dance album but ended up making two, etc. I think the reviews column should still be on the far left (so swap the reviews and opening acts). Also, any blank cells should say "none" instead of nothing. Also, did all those people actually open for Stefani at the October 27th show? If so, a citation might be in order, if not, some clarification would be nice. For the Sonic Festival you may want to make a special note, something n/a or something, since it was a festival, and people don't usually have opening acts at festivals anyways. But, technically speaking, was this part of the Tour in the first place? Also, in the Setlist section, it says "The Sweet Escape", with Akon, but Akon was clearly not at all the shows, right? And yea, the lead still needs some work. Drewcifer (talk) 23:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have swapped them. I don't agree with you on adding the things you mentioned in the opening acts colums as it would change the whole meaning of it. It is supposed to be a simple column stating the opening acts. All these things will make the article very wordy. Whatever that was very notable (like reunion of band etc. are mentioned in Notable Events section). Dance album and stuff should not be on this article. Stuff about that is already elaborated on article like Love.Angel.Music.Baby and The Sweet Escape and that is the right place for it. In the "General" section of the References, source for opening acts is mentioned. I am expanding the lead. Indianescence (talk) 12:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have expanded the lead. I cannot write there "none" as there may be opening acts which i do not know of. There were no sources for them. Writing none would be claiming something, which i can't till i am not backed by sources. And yes, I will make that "The Sweet Escape" feat. Akon as that is like the name of the song. Indianescence (talk) 15:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I realized I mixed up my sentences above, so it might have been confusing, I'm not sure. My mistake. I meant to say that the column is fine except for possibly putting in "none". I think that the gwenstafni page itself has little news things announcing who opened what shows. So those would be good to reference, and that would also mean you would know for sure which dates had no opening acts, and hence you could put "none" whenever neccessary. And I still have reservations about the Sonic festival (did those people really open for her? does anyone open for anyone at a music festival? maybe those people just happened to play before stefani, which is different.). As for the introduction, and as far as making the article "wordy," I hate to break it to you, but I really don't think this article qualifies as a list anymore: so more words isn't a bad thing. And in my personal experience, it's best to include quotes as often as possible since it takes the writing out of your hands and puts it back into the subject's "hands". Why explain something when Gwen Stefani herself can explain it to the reader? Seems like a more direct flow of knowledge, right? And elaborating information from other articles isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as it gives us some insight into the topic at hand. Drewcifer (talk) 10:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This article would remain a list if we don't include more things. The things you mentioned (like Stefani having babies and stuff) is pure gossip in my view. These don't qualify to be on the article. The article's main feature is the "Tour dates" table, and this is why it qualifies as a list. Adding a lot of other things, including her dance album stuff has nothing to do with the article. I feel that the current info on the article is more than enough. A tour article should have an intro, tour date table, reception and success/failure section and this article has all that. Anything else would convert this list into an article. I would surely work on Sonic Fest. And yes, i don't see any reason why we can't put n/a (not available) instead of none. That will be very stable then. No one would be objecting. If we follow gwenstefani.com and leave most of the shows without opening acts, then people will object that there were people opening for the shows. And yes, it is not mandatory to use quotes. I know it will make it better, but nothing is wrong with the current info as well. The article is saturated with wordy info and whatever that was necessary is here. I am taking a leave from wikipedia as i am appearing for my exam. If this article fails to meet the criteria, so be it. Thank you for your interest in the article. Indianescence (talk) 12:19, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, well if you disagree with me that's fine, but I'll have to stand by my Oppose vote. Namely since the topic doesn't seem very list-worthy, and should probably be nominated at FAC, not here. Good luck with your exams, and I hope to see the article renominated at FAC soon. Drewcifer (talk) 22:56, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose
    1. Introduction and Stefani's set list sections need to be expanded.
    2. Notable events section has got to go per WP:TRIVIA.
    3. Gallery section has got to go per WP:NOT.
    4. Get rid of the external jumps in the table.

--Crzycheetah 00:54, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ dsf
  2. ^ asfd
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