Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Adolf Hitler's personal staff/archive2
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- The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The list was withdrawn by Crisco 1492 13:44, 2 May 2015 [1].
List of Adolf Hitler's personal staff[edit]
List of Adolf Hitler's personal staff (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
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- Nominator(s): Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 22:06, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This lists was created and written as an article under the name Adolf Hitler's adjutants. During the GA-review and FL-review, it was decided to be a list by consensus and the title was change to List of Adolf Hitler's adjutants. Then, after suggestions on the previously mentioned review pages, the article was renamed yet again, this time to List of Adolf Hitler's personal staff and now includes adjutants, cooks, secretaries, chauffeurs, aide-de-camps, valets, dentists, surgeons, physicians, and so on. Please contribute with comments for improvements or throw in an oppose or support vote. Best regards, Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 22:06, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
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- I did a copy-edit and made a few MOS tweaks pls see my edits here [2]. Anotherclown (talk) 09:25, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you so much, Anotherclown, for both your copy edits and vote. :) Best, Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 15:36, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
CommentsOppose by MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:59, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- In the lead you use wording such as "large personal staff", "large group of aides-de-camp and adjutants", "part of his entourage", "Many from Hitler's personal staff", etc. This wording gives the impression that the group of people to be considered for this list is unquantifiable and therefore raises the question if this list is complete? Do you consider this list complete? If yes, I would avoid these vague phrases, if no, you need to add some verbiage explaining why these people have been listed.
- The list is complete; I have tweaked the sentences in question. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:38, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, I, a few minutes ago, discovered that Hans Baur and Georg Betz, Hitler's pilots, were not included and have added them to the list. Now the list is surely complete! Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 00:27, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The list is complete; I have tweaked the sentences in question. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:38, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Eastern front" should be linked and capitalized
- Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:38, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I assume the list is initially sorted alphabetically by first name. It is good practice to explain the order sequence.
- Good call, done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:38, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- "who was later sacked" and "was fired as" I find this wording too colloquial
- Reformulated. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:38, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Berghof" should be linked on first occurrence, or better on every occurrence since list is sortable
- Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:38, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Brother of the better known Martin Bormann", better known? maybe "Brother of Hitler's private secretary Martin Bormann"
- Martin is obviously better known, but tweaked per your suggestion. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:38, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"She was the only one of the 15 used to survive World War II." 15 what? Who were the other 14, you claimed earlier that the list is complete.
- Me and Kierzek have concluded that the food taster does not belong on the list of Hitler's personal staff, as they were being forced (and some kidnapped) and most likely never befriended or even met Hitler, as all the others did. Accordingly, Margot has been removed, so, yes, the list is complete. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:55, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, she was not really part of his staff but only a functionary used by the SS for a certain task; further, all the others used for the same task are unknown, as you noted MisterBee. Kierzek (talk) 13:28, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- You wrote "Me and Kierzek have concluded that the food taster does not belong on the list of Hitler's personal staff". This raises the concern if this list meets the WP:NOR requirement. Please comment MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:43, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- She has never been listed by any WP:RS source as being "part of his staff" and from what is written and cited she was only one of several people used by the SS for the function of tasting food. Jonas used wording which is not stating the whole picture. It has nothing to do with OR. Kierzek (talk) 12:59, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- You wrote "Me and Kierzek have concluded that the food taster does not belong on the list of Hitler's personal staff". This raises the concern if this list meets the WP:NOR requirement. Please comment MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:43, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, she was not really part of his staff but only a functionary used by the SS for a certain task; further, all the others used for the same task are unknown, as you noted MisterBee. Kierzek (talk) 13:28, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Me and Kierzek have concluded that the food taster does not belong on the list of Hitler's personal staff, as they were being forced (and some kidnapped) and most likely never befriended or even met Hitler, as all the others did. Accordingly, Margot has been removed, so, yes, the list is complete. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:55, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I still think (I had expressed this in an earlier review of a variant of this list) the article/list would benefit from more verbiage explaining the roles and tasks of the various military adjutants.
- A longer discussion toke place on what the lede should write and this was the result. In an attempt to add a little extra to each on the list, a "Notes" subsection was added which gives a little info on each individual.
- Okay, that is fair; however I am not satisfied with some of the notes as they do not relate to role as adjutant or servant. Example, Gerhard Engel, the note states "A recipient of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves". Over 800 people received the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves. How does this fact relate to the Engel's role as Hitler's adjutant? Or Georg Betz, how does the fact that he was killed in Berlin relate to his service as co-pilot. I would expect to see some commentary that indicates why he qualified as Hitler's co-pilot. In general I think that the notes should be linked to the topic.MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:17, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- MisterBee1966, the notes given to each on the list is not, necessary, meant to relate to their role in Hitler's staff, but simply something related to that person. I think you're overthinking this. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 11:59, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Jonas, I understand your point, but MisterBee has a point, as well. I did tweak several entries. Kierzek (talk) 12:50, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I had another look and I acknowledge that improvement was made. However, I am still not 100% satisfied. I strongly believe that the roles of these adjutants, especially the military ones, need to be better motivated. I assume they helped prepare the daily military situation briefings for Hitler. What role did the adjutant play on the day of the Normandy Invasion? Was it the decision of the adjutant not to wake Hitler in the early morning hours? One can speculate what influence this may have had on the further events, that is not my point here, but we need more verbiage explaining the roles. Look at the note on Julius Schaub, it says "Hitler's longest serving adjutant.", what was he responsible for? Buying his toilet paper? Friedrich Hoßbach, it says "Dismissed as adjutant in 1938 for unfavorable conduct.", this raises more questions than it answers. Have a look at List of battleships of Germany or List of heavy cruisers of Germany, both lists are featured and check the amount of motivating detail that helps the reader understand the articles. Please don't get me wrong, the article is making good progress, it is a worthy topic, but it just needs more work to be featured. MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:34, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- MisterBee1966, I have made further edits according your comments. I can't do more than this! Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:05, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- P. S. Burton had commented on the previous FLC review. He explicitly mentioned the work "Managing Hitlers Court" in High Society in the Third Reich by Fabrice d' Almeida. I think it would be good if he would comment on the current state of the article/list as well. MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:09, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- MisterBee1966, I have made further edits according your comments. I can't do more than this! Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:05, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I had another look and I acknowledge that improvement was made. However, I am still not 100% satisfied. I strongly believe that the roles of these adjutants, especially the military ones, need to be better motivated. I assume they helped prepare the daily military situation briefings for Hitler. What role did the adjutant play on the day of the Normandy Invasion? Was it the decision of the adjutant not to wake Hitler in the early morning hours? One can speculate what influence this may have had on the further events, that is not my point here, but we need more verbiage explaining the roles. Look at the note on Julius Schaub, it says "Hitler's longest serving adjutant.", what was he responsible for? Buying his toilet paper? Friedrich Hoßbach, it says "Dismissed as adjutant in 1938 for unfavorable conduct.", this raises more questions than it answers. Have a look at List of battleships of Germany or List of heavy cruisers of Germany, both lists are featured and check the amount of motivating detail that helps the reader understand the articles. Please don't get me wrong, the article is making good progress, it is a worthy topic, but it just needs more work to be featured. MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:34, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Jonas, I understand your point, but MisterBee has a point, as well. I did tweak several entries. Kierzek (talk) 12:50, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- MisterBee1966, the notes given to each on the list is not, necessary, meant to relate to their role in Hitler's staff, but simply something related to that person. I think you're overthinking this. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 11:59, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, that is fair; however I am not satisfied with some of the notes as they do not relate to role as adjutant or servant. Example, Gerhard Engel, the note states "A recipient of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves". Over 800 people received the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves. How does this fact relate to the Engel's role as Hitler's adjutant? Or Georg Betz, how does the fact that he was killed in Berlin relate to his service as co-pilot. I would expect to see some commentary that indicates why he qualified as Hitler's co-pilot. In general I think that the notes should be linked to the topic.MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:17, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- A longer discussion toke place on what the lede should write and this was the result. In an attempt to add a little extra to each on the list, a "Notes" subsection was added which gives a little info on each individual.
The ISBN numbers should be formatted uniformly. You currently have 10 digits and 13 digits, and some dashed and some not. Examples 0-393-06757-2, 978-1559707282 and 978-1-60239-804-7
- My understanding has always been that using both ISBN-10 and ISBN-13 numbers were acceptable at best and didn't matter/make a difference. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:59, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- They should be standardized. I use this tool whenever I need to do that. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:53, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry guys, but that simply strikes me as being too irrelevant. Unless you tell me it's a WP policy, I won't do it. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 23:02, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Jonas this List is "your baby" for which I have been glad to help with, but you need to relax. What I can tell you is that neither is wrong, either 10 number or 13 number, ISBN; but the 13 number system has become more of the standard for newer books and Wikipedia does suggest it be used, if known; further uniformity is something to work towards. There are conversion tools, etc. Kierzek (talk) 12:50, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry guys, but that simply strikes me as being too irrelevant. Unless you tell me it's a WP policy, I won't do it. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 23:02, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- My understanding has always been that using both ISBN-10 and ISBN-13 numbers were acceptable at best and didn't matter/make a difference. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:59, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Please check on disambiguations. Currently two links "Pilot" and "Wiking" require attention. MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:12, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Images are currently lacking alt text (see WP:MOSIM on WP:ALT), I believe this is madated at FLC MisterBee1966 (talk) 21:41, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I am opposing this nomination until the roles and responsibilities of the various people are clearly worked into this article. I don't care if this is done through a thorough expansion of the lead or by addressing this concern in the notes section of the table. If this concern is adequately addressed; I may change my opinion (if the other items I pointed out are addressed as well). Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:09, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I have no intentions of changing the lead or adding more on the roles and responsibilities of the various people, so I suppose I'm just gonna' have to swallow your oppose vote. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:13, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Jonas consider my latest comments above. Kierzek (talk) 13:46, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Kierzek, I tweaked the 10 ISBN's to 13 ISBN's. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:51, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Jonas consider my latest comments above. Kierzek (talk) 13:46, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I have no intentions of changing the lead or adding more on the roles and responsibilities of the various people, so I suppose I'm just gonna' have to swallow your oppose vote. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:13, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment by the nominator
As of this moment, it looks like the fate of this candidate comes down to whoever votes next. I will leave a message on the military wikiproject and ask some people to vote here. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 22:35, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Only free images are allowed to be used in Lists. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 16:28, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I recently discovered a lot of images from their main articles could actually be used; I have added more pictures. Cheers, Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 00:09, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- In EU images become PD after 70 years. Since these people died or them images were taken more than 70 years ago the following images should be relabeled as PD:
- Only free images are allowed to be used in Lists. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 16:28, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Fritz Darges photo in color, early 1945.png
- File:Hans Hermann Junge.jpg
- File:Hitler visiting Heinrich Borgmann in hospital after the failed 20 July bomb plot.png
- File:Schreckj.jpeg
- File:Karl-Jesco von Puttkamer.jpg
- File:LudwigStumpfegger.jpg
- File:Bundesarchiv Bild 146-1976-096-007, Max Wünsche.jpg
- The image is incorrectly placed as "Karl Wilhelm Krause" MisterBee1966 (talk) 18:49, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Nazi Party and SS member Wilhelm Brückner in 1924.jpg
- The following people died in 1945 so by the end of the year their images should also be PD:
- File:Georg Betz.jpg
- File:Julius Schaub in his adjutant uniform.png
Someone with more copyright knowledge please check these images so they can be used in the table. Nergaal (talk) 17:31, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Closing note: This candidate has been withdrawn, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through., per this request. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:42, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.