Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Toronto/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 00:00, 16 July 2007.

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Toronto

This article had been greatly expanded during the course of the previous year. The article is listed as a good article, and I think with its current quality, it is capable of achieving a FA status. The following link shows the difference between the "July 5, 2006" version and the "July 5, 2007". [1]. This article had compiled numerous editors' efforts, and it is extremely well-written, and certainly comprehensive. It is well divided into 11 main sections, and several sub-sections. Even so, the article is factually accurate that no other sources could provide. The article features 64 reference sources, 4 external links, as well as links to other wikis. The article is currently stable, and is not experiencing any edit wars.

This article is very easy to navigate. For example, the infobox on the top-right of the article, summarizes Toronto in a visual, organized way. Also, with the colour-coded Climate chart, it visually enhanced the whole article.

Not only is it easy to navigate with the table of contents, infoboxes, navigational templates, charts, and population tables, this article provide numerous images to enhance the article. It is ensured that at least one or more visuals (that is, images or tables or charts) are located in different sections to help readers to further understand about the City of Toronto.

Editors have been trying to resize this article, and had been creating sub-articles about Toronto lately. These links are placed within their relevant sections for easy navigation.

Smcafirst 17:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. I've worked a great deal on this article over the years, and while it is decent, it still needs a fair bit of work to be an FA. The article is too long, being 89kb in total. Structurally it is not very well organized. There are many very short sections, and a lot of one sentence paragraphs. Some sections are too short, such as the economy and politics sections. Others are too long. The cityscape section, for instance, should probably be spun off into a separate architecture of Toronto page. The pictures are also an issue. There are too many of them that don't add much, and a number are of fairly low quality. - SimonP 18:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Partially Fixed. I am currently working on resizing the article. So far, I have used your advice to move parts of the Cityscape section to Architecture in Toronto. I am still currently working on it, and the article already downsized to about 86 kb. [2]

• Oppose. References 30-34, 36, 38-40, 57 are malformed. The writing in the article falls short of brilliant prose as well:

• • Fixed. All reference tag fixed up. Most malformed tags are replaced with {{cite web}} [3]

• Lead section: "As of the 2006 Canadian census" - redundant (no other country is going to do a census on Toronto)

• • Fixed. Changed "As of the 2006 Canadian census" to "As of the 2006 census" [4]

• "Toronto is heralded as one of the most multicultural cities in the world and is ranked as the safest large metropolitan area in North America by Places Rated Almanac. Over 100 languages and dialects are spoken here, and over one third of Toronto residents speak a language other than English at home." Needs inline citations.

• • Fixed. Edited grammar, removed non-cited information, and added cited information. [5]

• The third paragraph is choppy and could use some pronouns. Also, the following sentences could be merged to avoid a contradictory tone: "Toronto is consistently rated one of the world's most livable cities by the Economist Intelligence Unit and the Mercer Quality of Living Survey. In 2006, Toronto was ranked as the most expensive Canadian city in which to live"

• • Fixed. Fixed up choppy paragraph, remove sentence about professional team sports (this is explained in the sports section, and thus should not be in the beginning), move the skyline description sentence to the infobox (this sentence does nothing to the overall paragraph, and suits as the skyline image descriptions more.), and reworded some phrases. [6]

• "Toronto has a number of sister cities, which it selects based on economic, cultural and political criteria." Should be "which are selected".

• • Fixed. Reworded as suggested above. [7]

These are just problems with the lead and references. I'll examine more later. I'm also going to agree with problems with images- the birds-eye-view image of the financial district should be in "Economy" and the current shot of Bay Street in that section should be removed. The image of Highway 401 doesn't offer much value, and there are too many photos in "tourism" (we don't need a random shot of people on the sidewalk with an equally random caption). However, I'm going to compliment the climate chart because that looks amazing. My only grief would be to somehow incorporate the eyars that the records were broken.

-Wafulz 18:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Fixed. "Taste of Danforth" image temporarily removed. ("we don't need a random shot of people on the sidewalk with an equally random caption"), but I did not remove the economy TD Bank Image, since it is important to Toronto's downtown, and I did not find any images relate to Bay Street in the image (so this is not taken care of just yet). The 401 image is also deleted, please see Link 9 on Coloane's comment.[8]

Smcafirst 21:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I dont really like the gigantic climate box. Seems distracting to me like "Ooooh, what is that massive box with all the colors?"--trey 19:57, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

• oppose way too much origional research --Sefringle^Talk 05:04, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Comment. I don't understand the fact that Toronto had too much original research. According to WP:OR, Original research means : "a term used in Wikipedia to refer to unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories. The term also applies to any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position". I don't see a lot of this going on. Most of the reference are well-published by Statistics Canada, and City of Toronto's government. Smcafirst 14:28, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment nice collection of images, but could probably dispense with a couple of images to make it less clogged. Chensiyuan 09:10, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose The section of Infrastructure is terribly written. Coloane 13:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Fixed. I have copy-editted (proofread) the "Infrastructure" section, removed some irrelevant information to further shorten the article (The rail network section was way too long) [9]Smcafirst 14:15, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose
  • First off, The table of contents is gigantic and intimidating. See Erie, PA or Minneapolis, MN for corrections to this.

• • • Comment. Many Canadian cities' articles uses this type of Climate table to illustrate the local climate, and some even pass the FA status, like Hamilton, Ontario. I do have to admit that our climate table is a bit larger than others, but are not really that intimidating when comparing to others.

I am talking about the table of contents.—trey^jay–jay 19:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Ref: largest city in Canada and the provincial capital of Ontario, located on the northwestern shore of Lake Ontario

• • • Fixed. There are references to each points listed above now. See Reference #3 (for largest city in Canada) ,4 (capital of Ontario) ,5 (northwestern shores of Ontario)

• • Ref: it is the fifth-most populous municipality in North America.

• • • Fixed. There is a reference to this published by the government of Toronto: See reference #6, and also #1 (For the Statistics Canada data).

• • Ref: Toronto is considered a global city.

• • • Fixed. There is a reference to this: See reference #10

• • Ref: Toronto's population is cosmopolitan and international,

• • • Fixed. There are 3 references for this: References #14, 15, and 17

• • POV/OR: clean environment and generally high standard of living

• • • Comment. This is stated from the Economist Intelligence Unit, not a point of view by one single editor.

• • Ref: In 1813, as part of the War of 1812, the Battle of York ended in the town's capture and plunder by American forces.
  • Ref: The city grew rapidly through the remainder of the 19th century, as a major destination for immigrants to Canada
  • Ref: Toronto was twice for brief periods the capital of the united Province of Canada first from 1849-1852, following unrest in Montreal and later 1856-1858 after which Quebec became capital until just a year prior to Confederation, since then it has been Ottawa.
  • Repeat: The city began to rapidly industrialize in the middle of the 19th century.
  • OR/Refs Needed: The city began to rapidly industrialize in the middle of the 19th century. An extensive sewage system was built, and streets became illuminated with gas lighting as a regular service. Long-distance railway lines were constructed, including a route completed in 1854 linking Toronto with the Upper Great Lakes. The Grand Trunk Railway and the Great Northern Railway joined in the building of the first Union Station in downtown. The advent of the railway dramatically increased the numbers of immigrants arriving and commerce, as had the Lake Ontario steamers and schooners entering the port and enabled Toronto to become a major gateway linking the world to the interior of the North American continent. Horse-drawn streetcars gave way to electric streetcars in 1891, when the city granted the operation of the transit franchise to the Toronto Railway Company later re-named the current Toronto Transit Commission, now with the third highest ridership of any city public transportation system in North America.
  • Ref: Topography has no references
  • Ref: Climate has 2 (really one)
  • POV: Defining the Toronto skyline, the CN Tower is Canada's most recognizable and celebrated icon.

• • • Fixed. POV statement removed.

• • POV/Ref: centre of tourism in Toronto.
  • Ref: Architecture is original research with no refs
  • Ref: Architecture is wayyyyy to long. Combine subsections, as well. This is too in-depth. Use summary style.

• • • Partially fixed. See SimonP's reply above (the first comment), parts of this section is now moved to Architecture in Toronto.

Still gigantic compared with other sections.—trey^jay–jay 19:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Ref: Toronto is a major scene for theatre and other performing arts, with more than fifty ballet and dance companies, six opera companies, and two symphony orchestras
  • Refs: The production of domestic and foreign film and television is a major local industry. Many movie releases are screened in Toronto prior to wider release in North America
  • Ref: Tourism for the festival is in the hundred thousands, and each year, the event brings in about $300 million.
  • Ref: Toronto is major centre for gay and lesbian culture and entertainment, and the gay village is located in the Church and Wellesley area of Downtown.
  • Language: I see British and American English. Pick one and use it.
  • Issue: Tourism is FULL of POV, OR and has a problem with the prose in between pictures.
  • Ref: and the fourth largest media centre in North America (behind New York City, Los Angeles and Chicago),
  • Ref: All of the Big Five banks of Canada are headquartered in Toronto.
  • The city's strategic position- whats so special?
  • Demographics has too much census data. Create a table and compare with Canada or Ontario.
  • Ref: The Toronto Public Library is the largest public library system in Canada, consisting of 99 branches with more than 11 million items in its collection.
  • Health and medicine needs expanded, compared with architecture.
  • Transportation can be combined.
  • Stubby paragraphs and bad prose thruout. Not very brilliant.
  • No crime?

• • • Comment. Crime have been briefly expressed in the introduction.

One of my points. The lead should summarize the article, and not contain things not mentioned elsewhere.—trey^jay–jay 19:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• • No utilities?
  • What does the government do for its people?
  • Dont mention things in the lead that are not included elsewhere. See WP:LEAD.
  • An article this long should have over 126 references.

• • • Comment. How can you count the "exact number" of reference for a certain length of a particular article. Even so, there should not be a line drawn of the number of references. A single source, that is useful (like the ones from the government) might serve a few paragraphs (if more).

I use a mathematical equation based on length.—trey^jay–jay 19:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• • • • Comment. Fine, then. What is your "secret" formula? And does it apply on every single FAs? Smcafirst 12:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• • I've noticed a pattern. Every section begins to get smaller from the beginning.

• Erie, PA or Minneapolis, MN are two good FA's you could get ideas off of. Message me when you are done, so I can look over and find more :) —trey^jay–jay 02:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, you have the seal listed as PD in the United States. I am not sure, but doesn't the Crown Copyright copyright canadian things? Not sure? —trey^jay–jay 02:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I strike out my own comments when I see they are completed. Dont do that again.—trey^jay–jay 19:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, you totally fucked up my comments. Formatting is off now ect.—trey^jay–jay 19:45, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Support Another well done article as the ones above. Mix Precipitation 12:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

— Mix Precipitation (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Oppose There are many smaller embedded lists in areas such as near the end of the first paragraph of the "Education" section which should be reworded or removed to comply with Wikipedia:Embedded list. However the article looks good otherwise. Tarret 02:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Fixed. I removed some of the private university-preparatory schools, and try to remove them. Check this out: [10] Smcafirst 02:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose—1a. I don't even like the opening sentence: "Toronto is the largest city in Canada,[3] and the provincial capital of Ontario,[4] located on the northwestern shore of Lake Ontario". Try: "Toronto is the largest city in Canada[3] and the provincial capital of Ontario;[4] it is located on the northwestern shore of Lake Ontario". Tony 03:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Disagree. The sentence sounds alright. Adding the words "and", and the punctuation ";", just makes it more confusing. Smcafirst 02:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.