Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Seattle Center Monorail/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 14 June 2020 [1].

Seattle Center Monorail[edit]

Nominator(s): Sounder Bruce 01:37, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't built by a conman with a catchy theme song, but Seattle's monorail has moved kings and The King and become an iconic symbol of the city. This article is probably the most comprehensive history of the monorail around, since it has not been the sole subject of its own book, and relies heavily on newspaper clippings. After a month of continual expansion and a strict GAN, I believe it's ready for FA review. Sounder Bruce 01:37, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Harry[edit]

Aren't monorails more of a Shelbyville idea? ;)

I expected to to go from the lead into a section about the inception and design of the monorail rather than straight into a route description. I suggest moving this up from the history section as it currently seems out of order place below the description of the system as is today.
- I prefer to keep the history all together as a single unit, and feel that it would drown out the modern information (which is more immediately useful) if placed before the rest. Also, the flow from History to expansion to accidents is quite good as it stands.
Don't link common terms (eg side platform, center platform, office building, auto repair shop, one-way street, national holiday, Thanksgiving, Christmas are all commonly understood by English speakers).
- Will work on reducing links, but platform terminology is a bit uncommon for Americans due to our lack of exposure to passenger rail.
by using both trains this is the first mention of rolling stock in the body but assumes the reader already knows the system only has two trains.
- Added.
Check for duplicate links. I spotted a couple while reading through.
- Again, will work on reducing links as I see them.
including the replacement of the red train with a green train they acquired a new train or they repainted the red one green?
- Fixed, just a repainting.
The monorail began a long-term closure on March 16, 2020 I know this is very new and there's no way to know what's going to happen in the future, but is there any more to say about this? For example, how and where are the trains being stored?
- Not much has been said since the closure announcement. The trains are being stored at their maintenance facility at the Seattle Center, but that information is not included in a citeable source.
A recall measure was submitted to the November 2004 ballot, where it was rejected by voters and allowed the project to continue. I don't know what this means.
- Fixed by adding a link and a bit more context.
Are there any investigation reports on the accidents and incidents whose conclusions could be added to the article? Or any sources that discuss the incidents as a whole that could be used to give a few summary sentences to the section?
- I will have to file a public records request with the city to see if they can get me the reports, but I don't think they'd be particularly useful. The local newspapers do report on the conclusions drawn from these reports, and I have included a few citations of that sort.
More of an observation than a criticism, but the article seems to rely heavily on news sources and very little on books and journals. This might be unavoidable; I would expect an article on a major railway to have a long bibliography but perhaps there isn't the depth and breadth of source material available on a mile-long urban monorail.
- I have not found books that talk about the monorail in depth; the two that I have used do have multi-page blurbs on the monorail, but don't cover much beyond the basics or some extras. It's fortunate that I was able to use The Times quite extensively here, as they dedicated quite a lot of resources in covering the construction of the World's Fair venues and attractions.
Just another thought but monorails are quite unusual in general and uncommon as urban mass-transport systems in particular (though looking at List of monorail systems, perhaps not as uncommon as I thought) but I don't get a sense of that from the article, nor of why a more conventional option wasn't chosen (though, granted, there is a mention of a subway system being ruled out).

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:12, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

- It was meant as a demonstration line during the World's Fair, akin to an amusement ride and a "preview" of future transportation that didn't really pan out, sadly. Thanks for dropping by with your review, HJ Mitchell. Sounder Bruce 06:24, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Just curious, are accidents not investigated by the NTSB or some similar body that publishes public reports? In the UK, all accidents involving railways (even those on metros and private/heritage lines) are investigated by the RAIB, which publishes a report on its website along with any recommendations. Also, none of the linking issues I mentioned above have been addressed. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:06, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Truflip99[edit]

Reserving a spot. Review in a bit. --truflip99 (talk) 19:55, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The monorail underwent major renovations in 1988 after the southern terminal was moved inside the Westlake Center shopping mall. -- Think this sentence would be better between the two history sentences in the first paragraph
- Fixed by swapping.
to build a citywide network to expand coverage -- sound better as "and"
- Replaced in a different way.
The service has two seasonal schedules: the fall and winter schedule, which runs from September to May, has trains operating for 13–14 hours per day from Monday to Saturday and 12 hours on Sundays; and the summer schedule, from May to September with 15–16 hours of service per day until 11 p.m. at night. -- Provide full information if you're to bring it up; I'm left having to do the math for the summer sched and wanting to know when fall/winter schedule time frame is... Also, consider splitting into two sentences
- Fixed.
after five years of negotiations and study over fare integration -- a study or studies

More later. --truflip99 (talk) 18:43, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed.

the service is unusual in being a form of public transport that makes an operating profit. -- I think you have to make the distinction that this is a US problem... not unusual in Asia.
- Fixed.
Each train is 122 ft (37 m) long, 10 ft 3 in (3.12 m) wide, and 14 ft (4.3 m) tall, with articulating joints between sections. -- here too; actually there are more in succession
approximately 70 ft (21 m) long, 5 ft (1.5 m) tall, and 3 ft (0.91 m) wide -- might not want to abbr in prose
- Per MOS:UNITNAMES, the frequency of the units warrants an abbreviation after the first time.
began negotiating a takeover by the city government -- of Century 21 Ctr or the monorail? might want to specify
- Fixed.
the city government, who already owned the Seattle Center fairgrounds -- who --> which?
- Fixed.
Century 21 Center offered to sell the monorail to the city for $600,000 as part of resolving its debts to the city and entering liquidation. -- sounds redundant; replace the first "the city" with "Seattle"?
- Used "city government", but not sure why it would be redundant. Century21 was a separate corporation.
In December, corporation's liquidation trustees -- the
- Fixed.
lacking an operating franchise and not electing to pay $200,000 for demolition. -- electing not to
- Fixed.
midnight on weekdays and Saturdays and ridership in the first week of June -- comma

More in a bit. --truflip99 (talk) 22:03, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed.

An emergency repair to the Westlake terminal was made in 1974 at a cost of $100,000 to replace metal shields under the platforms that caught debris. -- debris from what?
- The source did not specify, but I imagine there were bits of rubber from the tires or grease/oil that would drip. I'll try to see what exactly it was.
private company, who signed a ten-year contract with the city. -- which?
- Fixed.
Expansion proposals -- worth mentioning anywhere here that the proposed service expansions of the monorail (e.g. to Sea-Tac Airport) were ultimately fulfilled by Link light rail

That's it from me on prose. --truflip99 (talk) 19:11, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Truflip99: Thanks for the review. I will have to find citations that directly link the monorail proposals to Link, though it would have used a different corridor (through the Duwamish industrial area). Sounder Bruce 04:57, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley[edit]

"after the southern terminal was moved inside the Westlake Center shopping mall" If you say where it was moved to then you should say where from.
"private contractor who replaced" who implies a person. As it is a company it should be which.
"a private contractor who replaced King County Metro in 1994" For clarity I would mention that King County Metro is a public body.
"the entire trip takes approximately two minutes" The trip in the video took 3 minutes.
"The project ran into financial difficulties, including cost estimates rising to $11 billion, before being shut down by a city vote in 2005." As it did not go ahead, I would say "cancelled" rather than "shut down".
No change needed, but I was surprised that such a short route has drivers. Is this typical of similar systems? The Docklands Light Railway in London is driverless.
"Before reaching the southern terminal at the Westlake Center shopping mall on Pine Street, the monorail tracks narrow into a set of gauntlet tracks that are 4 to 5 feet (1.2 to 1.5 m) apart, preventing two trains from using the station at the same time." I do not understand this. If two trains cannot use the station, why have gauntlet tracks rather than merging into a single track? Is merging not possible with monorails?
"Trains depart from each terminal at an approximate frequency of 10 minutes, with a single train running continuously." You say trains and then a single train.
"The service generated $4.3 million in fare revenue and accepted approximately $883,000 in capital funds from local and federal governments." "accepted" sounds odd here. I would say "received".
"A maintenance and operations base is located underneath the platforms at the Seattle Center terminal." You say this above.
More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note[edit]

I appreciate Dudley isn't finished with his review but even so we seem to have quite some way to go before achieving consensus to promote after two months, so I'm going to archive thisa and ask that further work be done outside FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:22, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 01:23, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.