Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Miss Meyers/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:30, 7 August 2010 [1].

Miss Meyers[edit]

Miss Meyers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Ealdgyth - Talk 17:59, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... its been a bit since we've had a horse through, and this one is a little mare who raced well and outproduced herself, but died young. But the foal she orphaned went on to great things, so I guess she didn't go to horsie heaven too upset. Eventually, she'll be part of a featured topic on the horses in the AQHA Hall of Fame. I present, Miss Meyers, a 1950s racing Quarter Horse who has been through GA, a post-GA discussion with Philcha, a stringent copyedit by Malleus, and is now ready for the big time. I promise a bishop next. (I know everyone has been missing them..) Ealdgyth - Talk 17:59, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Checked external and dab links, and everything looked good. The article is easy to read, and to the point. As long as it's comprehensive (which I can't check), then I think this will make a great small-sized FA. – VisionHolder « talk » 18:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support (disclosure: I was the article's GA reviewer) Yes, the article is short, but as far as I can tell it says all that can be said, and is verifiable, neutral, and easy to understand. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:41, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously I should write more short articles... talk about quick support! It's the dense/obscure subjects that take forever to get reviewers... Ealdgyth - Talk 18:44, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Question What steps were taken to view contemporary newspaper and other coverage of this horse and her races? I do not see any periodicals as reference. Sorry, don't mean to be a horse's ass about this nor to leave anything on the parade route ...--Wehwalt (talk) 18:54, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's unlikely that much beyond purely local coverage of her races exists, if they were even covered. All her races would be covered in the relevant QH racing books - which I own and are referenced. I've been to the AQHA's archives and museum and searched her file there and nothing relevant has been unearthed. There may be incidental coverage in the QH magazines of the time, but again, this would be duplicated in the appropriate stakes racing books and racing digests. The best source for "color" is the section in Nye's work which covers her briefly. Quite frankly, I wouldn't have voted her into the hall of fame, myself. She was a good, but not great, racing mare. The main claim to fame is that she foaled Kid Meyers. I suspect the Hall of Fame Committee was feeling "Politically correct" and felt the need for a few more mares in the Hall. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:00, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mebbe so, but running her name through Google News Archives for those years turns up at least two LA Times articles with some account of her races. I really think this needs to be explored, especially considering the brevity of the article. I appreciate the difficulty of writing small, but there does seem to be stuff out there, and I'd like to see it explored.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:06, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) Here's my look at the time period articles (I did a google news archive search of "miss meyers"+horse)

  • the "Los Alamitos Set for Opening Today" on 28 Nov 1955 is an incidental mention of MM.
  • The LA Times 'Miss Meyers Wins" article basically says she beat Barbara L by a neck and gives race chart. No real "color"
  • "Ridge butler" article - same - mentions that she was beaten in her first two starts but won this one
  • "monita wins" article - mentions she came in second in a photo finish.
  • "moon deck" mentions she ran, that's it.
  • "cow ponies" mentions she's going to race. That's it.
  • "los alamitos race meet ends" says she's going to race also.
Like I said, I've seen her file at the AQHA ... there were some clippings but they were all mainly of this sort "MM ran, won/was beaten/will be running". I still have three article accesses from the LA times available if you have a specific article you're going to insist I look at, but the above are those where the abstract didn't give me enough to know that the mention was purely in a race chart. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:28, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, we're supposed to use "secondary" accounts whenever possible. Newspaper accounts of her races are much more primary than secondary, and when secondary accounts are available (such as the Nye, Mattson, and Groves stuff) should be preferred, remember? If the newspaper accounts gave great "color" on the races, such as a human-interest or something similar, I'd be inclined to use them more, but none of those accounts above rise above the most basic facts of the race - winning by a neck doesn't really add much color, as that's a common occurance. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:30, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Depends. If the form books and so forth contain mere summaries, then I think the articles should at least be looked at out of hope of something better. No need to use any more accesses, been there, done that. Well, I won't say neigh to you then. Carry on.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Punsters will go to hell, I hope you know! No worries on the articles, it's part of the joys of FAC. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:40, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is that the bishop talking? Incidentally, I appreciate it that you saw her file, but I can't tell what that means, you see. For example, I certainly looked at the Nixon library for papers on Murray Chotiner found some but found a lot more in the files of one of Nixon's early opponents who was rather obsessed with the guy, apparently. There's just no telling. Since we haven't been there with you, we have no alternative but to ask questions, and poke around in search windows. I see it as par for the course. The race course, in this case.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:45, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment After conversation with Ealgyth, I do believe that this article, a copyvio of an RS of which Ealgyth assures me he has the original, has information which merits inclusion in the article. While the focus of the wiki article is not on the racing career of the horse, I think that information about how her career went could be included from:

While there weren't many of Lee's get foaled in 1953, there were quite a few at the track. Miss Meyers out of Star's Lou made one start in 1951; her fifth-place finish was enough to discourage her owner from trying again that year. She came back in 1952 to win a few races and even managed to pick up a AAA rating at Albuquerque, but it was as a four-year-old that she made her mark. She opened the '53 season with a second to Tonto Bars Gill at Rillito but the next week Miss Meyers could only manage a sixth. She made her next start more than a month later and ran second at Los Alamitos, but then something clicked and she came alive. She won a quarter-mile dash in AAA time at the Vessel's racetrack the first week in May and followed it one week later with a victory in the California Championship, one of the most prestigious Quarter Horse races in the country at that time. In her next 12 starts, Miss Meyers ran AAA or AAAT at Bay Meadows, Centennial (where she won the World's Championship Dash), La Mesa and Pomona, winning seven, running second twice and third twice, to bring her year's earnings to $15,398.

Certainly, the fact that she won more than half her lifetime earnings in this short stretch, if nothing else, is worth noting in the article, and that Ealgyth should reconsider.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:35, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've added in a bit, but my copy of the article is lacking page numbers (I clipped them when photocopying, oops!) so I'll have to go back to the U of I this week and get the page numbers. Will do that asap. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:52, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Very well, I do not see that as a problem.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:58, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Page numbers added. I now have a much better photocopy! I can actually see the pictures in the article also, and this helped identify when the photo in the article was taken... Ealdgyth - Talk 23:47, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose File:Missmeyers.jpg does not significantly increase my understanding (WP:FA Criteria 3), it looks like a horse, any horse, any of the hundreds of thousands of horses on this planet. I don't see what is unique about the appearance of this horse that requires non-free content Fasach Nua (talk) 20:06, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, my goodness. It shows her markings and what she looked like in racing condition, thus differentiating her from the other millions of horses on the planet. May I ask if ANYTHING passes fair use for you? I've never seen you agree with a fair use claim. But it's also the same rationale that allows the use in Easy Jet, Go Man Go, Chicado V, Barbara L, and Lightning Bar. I'll point out I was told to put IN the picture for the GA. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:48, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't recall requesting that an image be put in. I do think, however, that the image meets NFCC for identification purposes. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:21, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Might have been Barbara L... I do know that someone requested one from the AQHA Hall of Fame site, and it was a mare... maybe Chicado... too many horses! I'm going to ping in Elcobbola and Jappalang for second and third opinions.Ealdgyth - Talk 21:28, 31 July 2010 (UTC)f[reply]
Oh, a horse is a horse, of course, of course ... Talk to Miss Meyers!--Wehwalt (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While most animals might be indistinguishable from one another, I believe the markings on a horse are distinctive enough for identification. It would be inappropriate for this photo to be in an article more generic in focus like Horse racing, but I believe it qualifies for fair use in a manner that we have decided is appropriate for biographical articles on dead people (in this case, horses). That said, I think it would help much more to have more information from the AQHA on the copyright holder and date (creation or publication) of this photo. On another note, did Miss Meyers appear on any publication during 1952–55? Jappalang (talk) 21:47, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I will double check the Quarter Horse Journals tomorrow for that date range, but my guess is, no. There may be a half-tone photograph lurking in one of the magazines. I just double checked my books for photos, and there is a "win" photo in one ... but it's much less "IDish" - it's the typical race-win photo, with the photo finish of the race on the top and the crowd of folks blocking the horse with a flower blanket on the bottom of the photo. You can just barely see MM's head over the crowd of people! Ealdgyth - Talk 22:17, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Turns out that by going and getting page numbers for the Chamberlain article, I also managed to get a better photocopy which allowed me to see that the photo used here in the wikipedia article on Miss Meyers is a cropped version of the photo in the Chamberlain article, so that information is added to the image page and the WP article caption also. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:47, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While there are few things I know less about than horses, it is my understanding that these animals have unique markings which are meaningful and significant to those less ignorant than I. Although I might encourage elaboration on that relevance in the rationale -- and on authorship and date, if available -- the use of a non-free image to identify a deceased subject in that subject's article is not unreasonable or without substantial precedent. Эlcobbola talk 14:16, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A slightly expanded rationale has been done, pointing out the unique nature of each horse's markings. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:47, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have stricken the oppose, I am unconvinced this meets nfcc, but the consensus of editors at this point in time seems to think otherwise. I would encourage the principle editors to liaise with Jappalang who may be able to find a means to get a free alternative. Fasach Nua (talk) 20:01, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]


  • Support The article is excellent, and the image meets the NFCC by a country mile. I love seeing such shorter articles at FAC- that there's just not thousands of words of stuff to say shouldn't be a bar to the levels of audited content. (Oh, and clicking on the first of Ealdgyth's links, I expected to see a 737, and was wondering how that was non-replaceable...) Courcelles (talk) 21:17, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I couldn't find any problems either, except that the "updated" line in the infobox seems rather redundant. I agree that the image is justified; it does certainly increase my understanding of the subject to see what it looked like. (It's also fairly likely to be in fact public domain, though it's probably impossible to tell.) Ucucha 21:45, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, if I had to guess, it likely wasn't renewed as a copyrighted picture, but ... while I know about this site for determining renewals, it's only for books. I'm not sure there is a site to check for photographic image copyright renewals... Ealdgyth - Talk 21:51, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quick question Do we know who the guy riding her in the photo is? If so, the caption probably ought to say. (If nothing else, it will make life easier as and when someone decides to write his biography.) – iridescent 22:07, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, we don't. It's from here and there is no caption in the AQHA's pic. I'm not even sure when it was taken or where. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:14, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments Sasata (talk) 22:17, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • "As a broodmare, she produced, or was the mother of," it's not clear to me why this distinction is necessary. Isn't any female organism that "produces" another a mother?
  • Yes, it's true, but saying "produced" without the qualification has resulted in confusion in past FACs and GANs, so I'm in the habit of explicating it for those who don't understand the terminology. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is the breeder O.C. Meyer (text) or Meyers (Infobox)?
  • Meyer (checked against source to be doubly sure) and corrected. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She set four track records…" What kind of records? Speed? Most wins? Highest earnings?
  • By definition, all track records are for a distance raced and are for the lowest time for that distance on that track. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "…awarded her the title of Superior Race Horse in 1954." what is the significance of this title?
  • I've linked to the section of the AQHA's article that explains what the award means. Basically, a horse gets the title when they've won a lot of races, not something a lot of horses manage. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The highest speed index she achieved during her racing career was AAAT." Could this briefly be explained so we don't have to read another article to figure it out?
  • Added a very quick explanation as well as pointing out that was the highest possible at the time. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When Miss Meyers retired from the racetrack, she was the dam of the first AQHA Supreme Champion, Kid Meyers" This is unclear: starting the sentence with "when" could mean that she was already the dam when she retired. Would changing "When" to "After" and "she was" to "she became" be a more accurate word choice?
  • "After retiring from the racetrack, he earned his AQHA Champion in 1966 and his Supreme Champion in 1967." I don't know what these awards are, nor why they are significant.
  • I"ve linked to them on the relevant section of the AQHA's article and explained briefly in the text. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It wasn't until her four-year-old year, during, 1953 that Miss Meyer's really performed well and started winning on the track." avoid contractions; "four-year-old year" is awkward; "Miss Meyer's" shouldn't be possessive here; "really performed well" really?
  • Fixed. I plead the teenaged stepdaughter that was babbling in the background that caused that god-awful construction ... Ealdgyth - Talk 23:46, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does the Quarter Horse Journal not have volume #'s?
  • Generally not used in the field of horse-writing. It's easier to refer to the various magazines by year and month. They may have volume numbers, but I have never seen them used. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:35, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm ignorant of the conventions for horse articles, but it seems a bit odd to have a section (Pedigree) that's just a chart without any accompanying text. Also, what's the purpose of having Owen E. Acton bred mare's pedigree boxes labelled "unknown" rather than just leaving them out? Why is Kid Meyers not part of the pedigree chart? The lead states she was the mother of three other foals, but it looks like only two based on the chart. (apologies if I'm misreading the pedigree)
  • You're misreading the chart. That's MM's ancestry being given in the chart. So the top box above her is her sire, the bottom box below her is her dam, and so on. Thus, the unknowns are needed for the Acton bred mare because we don't know her parents (you'll sometimes see a mare that isn't named but you know that she was a daughter of a particular stallion, see Billy Clegg for an example). I suppose I could remove the extra unknowns at the very bottom corner, but it's kinda a stylistic thing to keep the chart looking even. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:35, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is "AQHA Racing Register of Merit" award in the infobox mentioned somewhere in the text? Should the AQHA awards in the infobox have years, like the other awards mentioned?
  • It isn't usual to list the year that someone gained an AQHA Champion or similar award as those are "lifetime" awards. The ones with years are titles given out each year, so it's like being the "1993 National League MPV", it's good to give the year they managed to get awarded the title. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:35, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • the publication year is mentioned twice in the second reference
  • Actually, that's the date the report was run from the AQHA database. These are kinda hard to figure out how exactly to cite them (MLA doesn't exactly cover this field!) Ealdgyth - Talk 21:35, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • one ref has US state in two-letter short form, the other doesn't

Sources comment: The Chamberlain article in Quarter Horse Journal lacks a page reference. Otherwise, sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 00:20, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, as above, my photocopy lacks page numbers so I'll be going to the library this week to photocopy again. I hate bound journals... Since usual practice is to leave an FAC open at least a week, I have enough time to verify and insert the page number. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support excellent work, no problems anywhere. Dincher (talk) 22:39, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Oddly, there are no locations anywhere in the article. Where was she born, did she race, and die? Otherwise seems fine - I won't be around to follow up. Johnbod (talk) 15:28, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While I could put in some of the places she raced they'd only be some of the places, because of that lack, I chose to not add partial information, especially as we don't have very detailed information on any of her races. We don't know where she was born or where she died, it's just not in the sources. We're lucky we know when she died, a lot of broodmares you never will find that information. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:44, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I appreciate that you have consulted an array of sources to produce the article, and it is well written and I'll probably support it even though it's pretty short. However, I would bet my life that if I nominated an article such as Arthur Wolstenholme, it would not be promoted despite being as comprehensive as it's ever going to be. There seems to be double standards at FAC. BigDom 21:55, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, that's probably a bad example but you get my point. BigDom 22:01, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is a fair question about how to judge an article which tells only part of its subject's story, because additional information is difficult to come by. Can I spruce up and nominate my DYK, Mrs. Pack, of whom very little more than what I have written about is known, not even her first name? I could put additional references in about an hour if so and have it here soon ... perhaps this matter is worth a discussion at WT:FAC.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Every article tells only a part of its subject's story, as this is an encyclopedia. The question therefore is, is there a significant part of the story for which sources exist missing? In the case of BigDom's example I suspect that there is, but not in this case. Miss Meyers was only a horse after all. Malleus Fatuorum 23:00, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Of course, of course. Good point.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:07, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Should Kid Meyers be redlinked, and the use of 2010 dollars is confusing-- it reads as if she won that amount in 2010, rather than adjustment for inflation. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:24, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

She won $28,725 ($326,738 in 2024) on the racetrack as well as 17 races. As a broodmare, she produced, or was the mother of, the first American Quarter Horse Association (AQHA) Supreme Champion, Kid Meyers.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:24, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Until KM gets in the hall of fame, I won't write an article on him. His chief claim was he was first, he's still not in the HoF. The format on the money is the same one we've used in all the other horse FAs. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:30, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, if that's his only claim to fame, perhaps not notable. Can you locate someone to help find a way to clarify the inflation wording? Not everyone is versed in finance; I think it might be clearer to all if it said something like "She won $28,725 ($233,398 in 2010 dollars)" or "She won $28,725 ($233,398 in 2010 US dollars adjusted for inflation"). Does MOS speak to this at all? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:46, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea. I can go with the first one (in 2010 dollars) pretty easy. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:53, 7 August 2010 (UTC) And done! Ealdgyth - Talk 19:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good enough for a start, so non-finance readers won't think she won that money in 2010. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:59, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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