Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/May Revolution/archive3

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 00:37, 23 February 2012 [1].

May Revolution[edit]

May Revolution (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Cambalachero (talk) 20:37, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it is a key event in the history of Argentina, and I have worked a lot with it. I worked first with Argentine books, as those made the most comprehensive study of this topic (not surprising), but I checked some books in English as well. I have also trimmed down some parts to related articles, but trying to keep this as an article that could be understood on its own, having in mind that most readers from outside Argentina or even South America are unlikely to have even a clue on who were this people or the events described.

All the issues pointed during the previous nominations were addressed by then. This article has been promoted to A-Class by the Military History wikiproject. Cambalachero (talk) 20:37, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source check

Almost none of the sources are available online, so this is the only one I could check:

  • Text: En 1813, en tiempos del Directorio, el sistema político está en crisis. Se estaba pensando en un príncipe europeo. Después Alvear empieza a pensar en el protectorado inglés. En medio de esa crisis, se crea la Asamblea del año XIII para declarar la independencia, pero la independencia no se declara.
  • (Rough) translation: In 1813, in times of (Supreme Directors?) the political system is in crisis. There were thoughts of a European principality. Later Alvear began to think of an English protectorate. In the midst of this crisis, the Assembly of (1813) was created to declare independence, but independence was not declared.
  • Article
  • Before the declaration of independence of 1816, the supreme directors considered other options, such as negotiating with Spain or becoming a British protectorate.

In other words, this source is accurately represented without copyvio. Another I could check online:

  • Text: Mitre inventó una revolución de Mayo antiespañola, separatista, por el comercio libre (implícitamente pro británica) para legitimar su política de 1862. Hoy, inclusive los profesores de la línea de Halperín Donghi –como Luis A. Romero y José Carlos Chiaramonte- admiten que no comparten la versión de la Historia mitrista sobre Mayo. Chiaramonte sostiene que ya nadie da validez a la fábula de “la máscara de Fernando VII”, con la cual se intenta justificar el voto de la Primera Junta del 26 de mayo de obediencia a Fernando VII; sin embargo, el Departamento de Historia del Colegio Nacional Buenos Aires persiste en aceptarla. L. A. Romero, por su parte, afirma que Mitre “inventó” esa historia pero que debe procederse con cuidado porque es un “factor de cohesión de la nacionalidad” (Diario Clarín, 24/5/2002). Considero, por el contrario, que es un factor de colonialismo mental, legitimador de la influencia inglesa a partir de 1862.
  • Too long to translate, but ...
  • Article:
  • Juan Bautista Alberdi and later historians such as Norberto Galasso,[198] Luis Romero and José Carlos Chiaramonte[209] doubted Mitre's interpretation and put forward different ones.
  • Article:
  • This situation would change with the final defeat of Napoleon and the return of Ferdinand VII to the throne, as he began the Absolutist Restoration and persecuted those holding the new libertarian ideas within Spain. For people in South America, the idea of remaining part of the Spanish Empire, but with a new relationship with the mother country, was no longer a feasible option: the only remaining options at this point were to return to absolutism or to adopt independentism.[209]
  • Source text:
  • Could the nominator please post the text from the source that verifies this text? I grew tired of looking for it :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:26, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the delay, I have been out of home a pair of days for health reasons. The text that verifies this is at the end of the first question to Galasso. In English, he says more or less this: "When the Spanish democratic revolution is defeated in 1814 and Spain returns to absolutism, anulling the democratic constitution of 1812, restoring the inquisition, etc; the rupture is needed (as cited in a mail from Gervasio Posadas to San Martín). Independence, to avoid falling again into absolutism, becomes urgent, because Spain will send now two fleets to recover "her" colonies. (break) The Spanish revolution of 1808 was national (against the napoleonic invader) and became democratic during the fight, by establishing popular Juntas that trusted Ferdinand VII to be progresist (he was fighting with his father, Charles IV). The American revolutions were initially democratic (antiabsolutist) as extensions of those others, and became national, meaning independentists, when the democratic revolution was defeated in Spain. That's why there are six years between the events of May and July 9, 1816 in Tucuman, the declaration of independence of the United Provinces of South America" (Note: Im in a hurry, this is a rushed translation, and may not be correct here or there) --Cambalachero (talk) 20:23, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the misunderstanding: I can translate, could you please quote the exact text in Spanish? I had a hard time finding it, and the spotcheck on sources means I'll look at the original text (in Spanish) and make sure there's no close paraphrasing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:59, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The paragraphs in Spanish are the following:

  • Cuando la revolución democrática española es derrotada en 1814 y se vuelve al absolutismo, anulando la Constitución democrática de 1812, reponiendo la Inquisición, etc., se hace necesaria la ruptura (Carta de Posadas a San Martín, del 18/7/1814). La independencia, para no recaer bajo el absolutismo, resulta entonces urgente pues ahora España mandará dos flotas para recuperar “sus” colonias.
  • La revolución española de 1808 fue nacional (contra el invasor napoleónico) y se hizo democrática en la lucha, al constituir Juntas Populares que confiaron en que FernandoVII era progresista (estaba enfrentado con su padre, Carlos IV). La revoluciones americanas fueron inicialmente democráticas (antiabsolutistas) como prolongación de aquella y se hicieron luego nacionales, es decir, independentistas, cuando fracasa la revolución democrática en España. Por esta razón, hay seis años de diferencia entre los sucesos de mayo y el 9 de julio de 1816 en Tucumán, donde se declara la Independencia de las Provincias Unidas en Sudamérica. --Cambalachero (talk) 21:01, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, confused ... is "reponiendo la Inquisición" what you're using to source "persecuted those holding teh new libertarian ideas within Spain"? Where do I get, "for people in South America, the idea ... etc"? IN other words, it's obvious there is no close paraphrasing concern here, but I'm struggling to see how the text is verified, perhaps as a result of my inadequate knowledge of the history here. If we can get this part verified, then I'll move all of this over to talk and indicate that you've cleared a spotcheck on the two sources I could view. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:08, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The persecution of liberalism is part of the Absolutist Restauration. Galasso mentioned the restauration but not the persecution; but that's common knowledge, so I mentioned it just to place the reader into context. The restoration of the inquisition and the rejection of the liberal constitution are just specific examples of a wider policy; the text is better understood if we mention the wider context (because if I mentioned just those he said, the reader may misunderstood that those were the only problems). I don't think there was any original research or synthesis in doing that. The "for people in South America..." is basically the second paragraph, and the last sentence of the first. Have in mind that, in Argentina, "American" means "from the Americas" (the continent; in this context, Spanish colonies in the Americas as opposed to European Spain). Thus, the "South American people" is the "revoluciones americanas" bit (the several conflicts of the Spanish American Wars of Independence; the May Revolution is only one of them). But this usage of "American" is different in other countries, where it is read as "from the United States", so I can't just say "American revolutions" as Galasso. Cambalachero (talk) 23:29, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Declaration_independence.jpg is tagged as lacking source information, as is File:Red_versus_blue_swords.svg
  • File:Carlota_Joaquina_por_Manuel_António_de_Castro.jpg needs a US PD tag, as do other images using the PD-old/PD-art combination
  • File:Castelli_y_Cisneros.jpg needs a US PD tag and more info on the source
  • File:Invitación_al_Cabildo_Abierto.jpg: the first copyright tag is incorrect
  • File:Domingo_French.jpg: what is the author's date of death? Same with File:Primera_Junta,_litografía.jpg
  • File:El_pueblo_quiere_saber_de_qué_se_trata.jpg: source link returns error
  • File:BartolomeMitre002.JPG: date given is date of upload, should be date of creation or publication
  • File:Piramide-de-Mayo-Buenos-Aires.jpg: as Argentina does not have freedom of panorama, you need to account for the copyright of this monument as well as the picture
  • File:Manuelbelgrano.jpg is tagged as lacking author information
  • File:Argentine_Bicentennial_Logo.svg: I would argue that this design does meet the threshold of originality, and that it would thus be subject to copyright. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:48, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly done I fixed some images and replaced others. I'm not sure about the bicentennial logo, so I open a deletion request; so far there's a keep vote, but I removed it from the navbox for the moment. Most images have US compatible licences, but that's still a topic under discussion in Commons. The WMF had promised to consider the topic and provide some guidance as soon as possible, I think the best thing to do is to stay using the current rules until they have a definitive advise. Cambalachero (talk) 02:12, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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