Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Frances Cleveland/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 23 June 2023 [1].

Frances Cleveland[edit]

Nominator(s): Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:10, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm nominating this article for a second time after reworking it over the last month. I previously withdrew due to some close paraphrasing, which I believe I've now corrected. I also redid some of the article's structure to present the information in a more logical order. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:10, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First-time nomination[edit]

  • Hi Thebiguglyalien, and welcome back to FAC. Just noting that as you have not yet had an article promoted at FAC, this article will need to pass a source to text integrity spot check and a review for over-close paraphrasing to be considered for promotion. Good luck with the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:10, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Steelkamp[edit]

  • "...both of which were among the area's most well-regarded schools and guaranteed her an education above that of most women in her time." How about changing to "...both of which were among Buffalo's most well-regarded schools and guaranteed her an education above that of most women in her time." The article doesn't explicitely mention she grew up in Buffalo (I assume), only that she was born there.
  • Is Folsomedale a place? Is there an article for it? Maybe the state should be added after Folsomedale.
  • "Cleveland used his authority as the Mayor of Buffalo". I think that should be lowercase mayor according to MOS:JOBTITLES. "Cleveland used his authority as the mayor of Buffalo".
  • "...when representatives of the president took them away." Could be changed to "...when representatives of the president took the Folsoms away." to make this sentence clearer, assuming this is referring to Frances and her mother and cousin.
  • The hatnote to Wedding of Grover Cleveland and Frances Folsom can be removed as the article is linked in the first sentence of that paragraph.
  • "The president wished for a quiet wedding, so only 31 guests were invited to the wedding, ..." can be changed to "The president wished for a quiet wedding, so only 31 guests were invited, ..." This would remove a word that appears twice in the same sentence.
  • "Hundreds of spectators gathered outside of the White House to celebrate the wedding.  It was the first to see a president married in the White House itself, ..." Can be changed to "Hundreds of spectators gathered outside of the White House to celebrate.  It was the first wedding to see a president married in the White House itself, ..." This would make the second sentence clearer.

More to come. Steelkamp (talk) 15:56, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "spending the interim period". This could be changed to "spending the period before inauguration" to make it clearer.
  • "and she became involved with". Could be changed to "and became involved with".
  • "In the 1928 presidential election, she gave her only political endorsement to someone other than her first husband, endorsing Al Smith for president." This seems to contradict the following paragraph. It could be changed to "In the 1928 presidential election, she gave her first political endorsement to someone other than her first husband, endorsing Al Smith for president."
  • "A 1982 poll placed her 13th out of 42, though the 2008 edition of the poll placed her 20th of 38." It could be specified what organisation did the poll.
  • Is it known why she took an interest in German culture?

That's all from me. Steelkamp (talk) 08:15, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Steelkamp The sources do not elaborate on her interest in German. I was unable to verify anything about Folsomedale, so I removed it as it was a minor detail. I clarified that her endorsement of Smith was her only formal endorsement as opposed to her private support of other candidates. All other changes have been made. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:20, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, I am aware of this but haven't had the time to look at the article again recently. I will look at it soon. Steelkamp (talk) 15:25, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Steelkamp (talk) 06:26, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • File:Frances_Folsom_Cleveland.jpg: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Frances_(Folsom)_Cleveland,_1864-1947,_full_length_portrait,_standing,_facing_right;_in_formal_gown_LCCN2005686653.jpg, File:Frances_F._Cleveland,_head-and-shoulders_portrait,_facing_left_LCCN2002695293_(cropped).jpg, File:Mrs._Frances_Cleveland_with_trowel_at_building_foundation_ceremony_-_LCCN2014680806_(cropped).tif. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:18, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria, I added all of the info I could find during the first nomination, and I've been unable to turn up any additional info. It seems that all four of these particular images were uploaded as part of a dump of Library of Congress images that have been designated by the LoC as "no known restrictions on publication". Do these four images need to be removed from the article and deleted from Wikimedia Commons? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:39, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is there an appropriate no known restrictions tag that could be substituted, if the current tagging cannot be confirmed? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:01, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've found and added the appropriate tags. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:27, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment[edit]

Well over three weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:07, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Alanna the Brave[edit]

I'm going to check citations and source-to-text integrity for this article (will also keep an eye out for over-close paraphrasing). I'll aim to have some comments ready by the end of Sunday. Alanna the Brave (talk) 14:38, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that the most common source in the article, Dunlap (2009), is difficult to find online. Google Books has some pages in its preview, but I can provide excerpts if the need arises to look at that source more closely. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 14:58, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Quick update: I'm making progress through the reading, but will need a couple more days to pull together notes. Thanks, Alanna the Brave (talk) 00:02, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about the wait Thebiguglyalien! Okay. I've spot-checked Severn, Scofield, and Sferrazza to my satisfaction, and have thoroughly checked twelve other sources. The only ones remaining are the National Archives microfilm source, Dunlap 2009, and Lachman 2011 (I'll send you an email to request excerpts, if available). Overall, I'm seeing a very high level of source-to-text accuracy, and have no concerns re: over-close paraphrasing. I have spotted a few items that could use fixing or clarification, so I'll list them here.

Childhood
  • “He was fond of her, buying her a baby carriage and doting on her as she grew up.” --> Can’t find this info in the cited source (National First Ladies’ Library).
  • “The court appointed Cleveland administrator of his estate” --> Cited source says he was “executor” of the estate. Slightly different meanings, I believe: executor is granted powers by will of the deceased, whereas an administrator is appointed by the court in absence of a will.
    • The sources use both words, so I changed it to the more neutral "Cleveland was given charge of his estate". Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:55, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wells College

  • “When Folsom was 14, she joined the Presbyterian Church, to which she remained devoted throughout her life.” --> Not mentioned in the cited page 16 of source.
  • “Cleveland, who became Governor of New York at this time, maintained correspondence with Folsom while she attended Wells. He visited her, sent her flowers…” --> Cited source says Cleveland wrote and sent flowers, but not that he visited Folsom.

Engagement

  • “Despite Folsom's eagerness to wed, her mother and her future groom both insisted that she take the opportunity to travel and contemplate her future before marriage.” --> Citation for Watson (2001) should be p. 146

Private life

  • “Grover ran for president again in the 1892 presidential election. Despite his misgivings, Frances' image was often used prominently in campaign material.” --> Cited source says that Grover never gave permission for the use of Frances’ image (a bit different from simply having misgivings about the idea).

Later life

  • “in response to backlash against her proposal of a pro-war education curriculum.” --> Did she actually propose a pro-war curriculum? The cited source seems a bit vague in its description of what exactly led to her resignation.
    • I suppose it's debatable, so I changed the description to "patriotic education", which I think is more firmly grounded in the source. Interestingly, a search in other sources does not turn up any reason for her departure from the group. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:55, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • “Cleveland-Preston supported Franklin D. Roosevelt as president in the 1930s and 1940s” --> Cited source page only mentions her support in relation to 1932 election.
    • Changed to 1932, which then leads into her (lack of a) vote in 1940. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:55, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Politics

  • “and the Clevelands condemned the Frances Cleveland Influence Clubs that formed in 1892.”--> Cited source merely says that a New York woman proposed the creation of a Frances Cleveland Influence Club in 1892, but Grover said no.
  • “She opposed women's suffrage, though she did not comment on the controversial issue during her tenure as first lady.” --> Cited source page says only that she “avoided suffrage.” Maybe another source better expands on this?

References

  • 5 – “First Ladies: From Martha Washington to Michelle Obama” --> Author first name should be "Betty Boyd."
  • 11 – “Presidential Wives” --> Author should be “Paul F. Boller Jr.”
  • 15 – “Cleveland's Widow Dies At Age Of 83” --> For consistent title/headline case formatting: “at” and “of” don’t need to be capitalized (even if the original source does it).
  • 16 – “Where Princeton Buries Its Departed VIPs” --> source should be New Jersey Monthly (can be Wikilinked).

Thanks for the great work on this article -- looking forward to finishing up this review soon. Best, Alanna the Brave (talk) 16:32, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alrighty -- thanks for sharing the Dunlap excerpts Thebiguglyalien. A spot check of that source looks good to me, with only one more small query:
  • Later life: "she learned Braille to use a braille typewriter" --> Do we know Frances used a typewriter? The excerpt you shared only mentions that she learned Braille to transcribe books (she could have done this by hand, technically).
You told me that you don't currently have access to the Lachman and National Archives sources (and it sounds like you may not have had access to check them in the past, either?). Before I feel comfortable giving a final vote of support, I'd like confirmation that the cited info from these two final sources is accurate -- or, alternatively, perhaps those sources and supported text could simply be replaced or removed for the time being. I'm not in the U.S. and don't know that I could navigate the National Archives catalogues, but it looks like my local library system has the Lachman book -- I can put a hold on that if you're willing to wait a few more days. Best, Alanna the Brave (talk) 22:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They were both simple facts being cited, so it was easy enough to swap them out for other sources. Alanna the Brave, that should be everything. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:55, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Thebiguglyalien: The fixes look great (source concerns are addressed). The only thing that's still bugging me a bit is that "patriotic education" part from Frances' NSL work -- it definitely feels closer to the source material, but maybe not quite there yet. The source describes how the "sense of psychological indoctrination and use of fear in classrooms" is what got Frances into hot water with her beliefs (not merely a patriotic education, but use of control and fear to enforce patriotism). Would "overzealous views around patriotic education" potentially be more accurate? I don't want to add a judgmental descriptor, but something to help clarify how her views were beyond the norm. Alanna the Brave (talk) 15:04, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Alanna the Brave I've added your proposed wording, which I think is a fair summary of the source, but I've attributed it to members of the NSL as the source does. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:16, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thebiguglyalien: That looks reasonable to me. Okay -- all set! No other concerns re: sourcing or citations. I'm happy to give my vote of support for this FAC. Alanna the Brave (talk) 21:08, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Alanna the Brave, can I just confirm if this review constitutes a source review pass? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:04, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Gog the Mild: Yes, that's the intent. If you have any concerns about the review, please me know, but I've examined the sourcing and am satisfied to give it a pass. Best, Alanna the Brave (talk) 20:51, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from BennyOnThe Loose[edit]

Reference formatting:

  • Boller, Paul F. (1988) is lacking the ISBN
  • Williams, Francis Howard (1886) has a publisher location, but other books don't, which seems inconsistent.
  • Linking of publishers is inconsistent, e.g. OUP is linked but William Morrow and Company isn't.
  • You could add a "chapter=" parameter to the American First Ladies: Their Lives and Their Legacy citation
  • Optionally, ISBN's could be put in a consistent format. (I use https://anticompositetools.toolforge.org/hyphenator/)

General comments:

  • I couldn't see any citations for Preceded by Mary McKee (acting) / Succeeded by Ida McKinley / Succeeded by Caroline Harrison. There may be policy or precedent that allows this, in which case I'm happy to be advised.

I'll have a proper read of the article over the next couple of days and see whether I have any more substantial comments to make. Thanks for your work on the article. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) Happy to disucss, or be challenged on, any of my comments. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:59, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prose

  • her father's poor finances caused them trouble as she grew - is there enough in the source to make this more specific?
  • She eventually returned to Buffalo with her mother and moved to different boarding houses until finding a home - is it "they moved..."?
  • former White House hostess Harriet Lane - might be my lack of familiarity with american English, but wouldn't it be better to say "former first lady" (even though hostess is also correct)?
  • These rumors were emboldened after reporters... - isn't it the reporters rather than the rumors who were emboldened?
  • Engagement/Wedding - is there any press (or subsequent) commentary about the age gap beteween Folsom and Grover Cleveland and their relationship that is suitable to include?
  • prophetically informed the staff seems a bit strong, maybe something like "predicted to the staff"?
  • She dedicated herself to the child and took up work that was often performed by a nurse. - reads like borderline MOS:PUFFERY to me. I haven't seen the source but shouldn't there be some qualification on "that was often performed by a nurse" e.g. adding something like it being applicable for wealthy women in that period?
  • After her husband's death, Frances became involved in a legal battle.. - do sources discuss the outcome? Might be useful to add that. (Unless the outcome was just that the ariticle was proved to be a forgery.)
  • On October 29, 1912, it was announced that Frances intended to remarry. - do we know who annouced it, or where? (I think the current phrasing is in passive voice, which normally I don't notice, but I did here.)
  • Both Wells College and Princeton University congratulated them with the hope of claiming the couple as its own - I think I get what this is about, but could it be expanded slightly? What was the expected benefit for the in stitutions?
  • Frances and her husband worked with activists Solomon Stanwood Menken and Robert McNutt McElroy to promote military preparedness. - was this from around October 1914, or later?

I make no claim to knowledge of the subject, but from what I've seen in the shorter sources, the article provides suitable coverage, with no significant omissons. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:19, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what the standard is for predecessor/successor information, or if there even is a standard. Most of the sources acknowledge the age gap and cover Grover's relationship with Frances when she was younger, but they don't cover any significant response to the age gap during the marriage itself. I assume this is because large age gaps in marriages were more common/acceptable in the 19th century. I've addressed all of the other issues in the article. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 14:56, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if you've seen this already, but pinging BennyOnTheLoose because I just realized I forgot to do that before. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:27, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Great work, thanks! BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:14, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from SusunW[edit]

Thanks for posting on the WiG page. I'm happy to take a look at this, but as I said there, I may be in and out for several days due to real life complications. I've made a start and will come back tomorrow.

  • In the lede, "friend of her father's". Don’t need the 's and do need his name, i.e. friend of her father, Oscar.
  • "and he was law partners with Grover Cleveland" reads oddly to me. Perhaps, "and his law partnership was with Grover Cleveland", or "a lawyer, whose firm was a partnership with Grover Cleveland".
  • "boy's activities", should be boys', as is not a singular boy.
  • I'm confused about the living with her grandmother bit. Did her mother live with them? You say she returned to Buffalo with her mother, so did they both live with the grandmother, or only Francis did and then she returned to Buffalo to her mother. If they both didn’t, why was she not in her mother's care?
  • Much better, but now it says "They eventually returned to Buffalo with her mother". I think since it is now clear that they went together, you can lose the "with her mother". I've gone ahead and made that change.
  • "but it too was broken" – can a proposal be broken? Perhaps engagement is a better term?
  • In "Washington, D.C., left a positive impression on her", Washington, D.C. is the subject of the sentence and there should not be a comma between the subject and verb.
  • "These rumors grew" – which? The ones that Frances was his paramour or the ones that her mother was? Perhaps lose the "these" and it doesn't matter who.
  • "It was the first wedding to see a president married in the White House itself,[1]: 141  and it inaugurated" reads oddly to me. A wedding is inanimate and can neither see nor do anything. Perhaps simplify it… "Grover Cleveland was the first president to be married in the White House, and Frances Cleveland became the youngest presidential spouse in American history".
  • "for a week in Deer Park, Maryland.[1]: 141  Here they" might read better as "Maryland, where they"
  • "Such was the attention", possibly simplify as "They had so much attention"?
  • Not sure that it is necessary to repeat the surname of the Gilders. Perhaps just pope Helena de Kay Gilder to Helena and simplify "and she would accompany" to and accompanied.
  • "all that wished" or "all who wished"?
  • Link Gray Gables
  • "Among the charitable work that she worked on" is redundant, perhaps "Among her charitable endeavors"
  • I would lose the ; after "campaign in New York". Just use a period and then capitalize "Her charity work"
  • She wasn't the "only first lady to return to the position" (lots of first ladies have served two terms), rather she was the "only first lady to serve non-sequentially".
  • "apprehensive of taking" or is "apprehensive about taking" better?
  • "they controversially had the White House closed to the public while they were present" gave me pause. How could they close a public building? Checking the source, it says the closed the grounds and as the reference says to stop tourists from picking up the child, it would seem to indicate when Ruth was present, but it doesn’t specifically say that the grounds were only closed when they were present.
  • I like the way you reworked the paragraphs but note that it still says the White House was closed. I also note that the reference to the statement was changed from Schneider p. 144 to Dunlap p. 96, which I AGF even though it seems odd that they could close a public building without an act of Congress or emergency order. (Clearly we live in different times than they did.)

I need to stop here as have an appointment. I'll try to return sometime tomorrow. SusunW (talk) 23:30, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Fearing for her children's safety" comes rather abruptly, as so far in the article we only know about Ruth. Two paragraphs down, you discuss the other children. I think it makes more sense to move Esther's birth to follow the discussion of closing the grounds and delete her later for three reasons, first so you can say children, second because they clearly didn't move until after Esther's birth, and third her birth was historic. Cleveland was the first First Lady to give birth in the White House and Esther was the first child of a sitting president to be born in the executive mansion.[2],[3]
Thanks for adding this bit.
  • Thinking about this more, perhaps move this whole paragraph to follow the one beginning "Cleveland became increasingly protective" because in it you talk about the Panic of 1893 and her pregnancy.
  • link cancer to verrucous carcinoma per [4]
  • The next paragraph is chronologically awkward. The meeting with Infanta Eulalia occurred in May 1893, so even before Esther was born. Perhaps start the paragraph with all the text between "[Cleveland] still made time for her hostess" and "the 1894 social season", and then follow with all the text (minus Esther) after Marion's birth noting that she was a daughter. (Despite the masculine spelling, the girl's name is typically spelled Marian, the child born in 1895 was definitely a daughter per Schneider p 144 and Dunlap p 105 and to avoid confusion because of the spelling, I think you need to say that.)
  • Is there a way to reduce the redundancy of "language" appearing in "Cleveland also took an interest in German culture and the German language during her husband's second term, learning the language and hiring a German nurse so her children would learn the language as well"?
  • "that surrounded her", should possibly be "that had surrounded her", because it is a memory.
  • The memorial service should begin the next section as it happened in March and the trial was in June.
  • I think you need to discuss the Brandenburg case a bit more, as Dunlap says it was a national news story. Perhaps just add something like "Cleveland unsuccessfully tried to prevent the publication of the article and testified in the trial, which made national news and was largely responsible for Brandenburg's conviction".
  • "at its respective campus", the use of "both" indicates it should be "at their respective campuses".
  • It seems quite odd to have referred to her as Cleveland in the article to the point of "later life" and then start calling her Frances. I would suggest in this section you refer to her in the manner the press did and as she signed, i.e. "Cleveland-Preston".[5][6]
  • Can you add Al Smith's wife's name, so she isn't "hidden"? Catherine, per[7]

I think that's it from me. Please ping me if you want to discuss anything further, or when you have addressed my comments. I will try to respond promptly, but in any case, will respond within a day, if I cannot sooner. Thank you very much for your work on Cleveland. The article is very interesting and broadly covers her life and influence. SusunW (talk) 18:16, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SusunW I believe I've fixed all of the issues that you listed. For the "chronologically awkward" paragraph, I just split it up and moved some of it higher in the section because it was trying to follow two different ideas at once. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:26, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thebiguglyalien Thank you for your attention to detail. I think you got all of the points I noted except one, which I changed. I am happy to support. SusunW (talk) 13:46, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SNUGGUMS[edit]

  • The last paragraph of the lead overuses "she", so try switching up pronouns there.
  • Her middle name of "Clara" should be mentioned somewhere within "Childhood" when it isn't cited within the infobox or lead (which are supposed to summarize content from the article body)
  • Out of curiosity, was Nellie the only sibling that Frances had?
  • "was briefly engaged to a seminary student"..... if a name is known and why this (along with another engagement) got broken off, then I'd give such details
  • Unless you can adjust the brightness for File:Frances (Folsom) Cleveland, 1864-1947, full length portrait, standing, facing right; in formal gown LCCN2005686653.jpg, I'd go with something else that doesn't have her outfit blend into the background
  • How did she address the Henry Watterson rumor?
  • "despite her pregnancy, which at this time was in its seventh month"..... let's specify whether it was with their second or third child
  • Why did she decline pension that widowed First Ladies could receieve?
  • "During the Truman administration"..... I think "presidency" or "term of office" would work better
  • Starting three consecutive sentences with "she" (as you do in the final paragraph of "Later life") feels repetitive
  • I'm not sure "See also" is an appropriate place for linking grandchildren when they instead could easily be mentioned within prose (or scrapped entirely)
  • "The" isn't part of the title for Hartford Courant

This overall looks quite good :)! It shouldn't take you long to improve the article. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 19:34, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SNUGGUMS, thanks for reviewing. There's no information about her response to the Watterson rumor. The way the sources describe it suggest to me that she ignored it, but I'm unable to find anything that states this explicitly. There's also no info about why she didn't accept the pension; the sources that mention it all just state that she didn't accept it. All other issues have been addressed. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:08, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome, and I now can happily support the nomination. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 21:03, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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