User talk:Wjemather/2023

Gary Player/Natal Open

Good spot with the Natal Open. Just reinforces my view that the least reliable source is that written by the person themselves (which is probably the case here). Apart from their most important wins, most pros have only the vaguest idea about what else they've won, especially the year. Nigej (talk) 20:53, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, indeed. Some players are less reliable than others, and unfortunately such errors that have been replicated (without verification) on WP have now permeated through into supposedly reliable sources. Many players only list their most important wins (and we end up discovering many more) but others list everything, however minor – and a very small number will claim wins they never had (e.g. claiming a win as the leading pro when an amateur actually won), or rarely they'll include an event they didn't even participate in! _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 11:39, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

@Nigej: With regards to Player's wins, I am finding no newspaper reports of a "Liquid Air Tournament" in 1963, only one in 1965 (won by Trevor Wilkes). Given everything Player won was reported by this time, could this be another "error" (or maybe a conflation with the "Sponsored 5000" held in Nov 1963 – as tournament sponsors names were often omitted from wire reports)? _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 17:31, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

My only thought is that it is reported here https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/104283201 that he won some money for the best combined score over the 3 grand prix events but whether that prize had a name (eg Liquid Air) I've not idea. Nigej (talk) 18:06, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

@Nigej: Could be. However, according to various sources, it would seem that the Grand Prix series (Durban, Cape Town, Joburg) was sponsored by Richelieu. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 18:51, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Asian Tour awards

Hi, I've added an awards section for the Asian Tour i.e. Players' Player of the Year and Rookie of the Year awards. I've managed to find details as far back as 2002. There is a link to an article detailing 2001 awards here [web.archive.org/20020127051115/http://www.asianpgatour.com/] - "Thai star receives Asian Golfer of the Year Award". However the article link is invalid. Have you any ideas of where/which sources would give details of these awards from 1995-2001? Jimmymci234 (talk) 20:24, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, archive.org is generally the best bet, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to have been able to to save the AsianPGA newsfeeds, and these awards don't seem to be the kinds of things that were widely republished/reported elsewhere. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 09:47, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Yorkshire Championship/Yorkshire Open

See: https://www.yugc.co.uk/yorkshire-championship Nigej (talk) 16:38, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

That's great, thanks. Knew there must be a list somewhere! _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 17:24, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Midland Victory event 1919

I have put the 1919 PGA Midland Section Victory Tournament in the Midland Challenge Cup article but whether that was a good idea I'm not sure. Probably an article on all the victory events would be a better way forward. Nigej (talk) 08:39, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

@Nigej: Yeah, it's probably not the ideal place for it. I was thinking the same – having an article on the PGA "Victory"/St Andrew's Tournament, i.e. split it out of the Daily Mail Tournament article, and then including a bit about all the regional qualifying tournaments may be best. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 10:01, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Shane Lowry wiki page picture update

Hello,

Apologies for the incorrect uploading of a new picture for the Irish golfer Shane Lowry. I am from Shane’s team and we’re wanting to update his very old image.

The photo was taken at the recent PGA Tour official headshot session, by Getty Images, and they have given Shane permission to use this image how he sees fit. Shane also has a long-time licensing agreement with Getty to use any of the images they take which he is included in.

what steps do I need to take to get this new headshot as his new permanent wiki picture?

thanks! ICANTSPECK (talk) 09:17, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

@ICANTSPECK: Unless the copyright holder (Jennifer Perez/PGA TOUR) releases it under an appropriate free license, it cannot be used here or uploaded to Commons. Please read Wikipedia:Image use policy and Commons:Licensing for details. Regards, _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 09:30, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

1981 Australian Order of Merit

Hey,

I have this link that says that Bob Shearer won the 1981 "Australasian Order of Merit" and Terry Gale finished in second. Not sure if it would be of any help.

Sincerely,

~~~~Oooglywoogly

Oogglywoogly (talk) 22:17, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

New Zealand events on PGA Tour of Australia OoM

Hey,

According to this link the PGA Tour of Australia did not add New Zealand golf tournaments to their Order of Merit until 1981. It is from The Age, the top newspaper in Australia, and from a credible reporter, Trevor Grant. If you believe this information is accurate then I think we should modify 1970s wins tables for a number of players.

Sincerely,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:16, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

editorializing

Thank you for your recent edits to the Halls Head Western Open. I noticed that you made some edits to sentences that were "editorialized." I was looking for advice about this issue as I often directly quote journalists. Could you lead me to the appropriate section in MOS about this matter?

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:38, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Whether quoted or extrapolated from the source, or otherwise, phrases like "played too defensively", "lived up to expectations", "opened doors", "shocking performance", etc. are purely there for decoration, don't really add anything encyclopedic and are liable to contravene WP:NPOV (being an unbalanced opinion, and often based on emotion at the time of the event when from primary sources). As such we'd need a very good reason to include them. In general, we should stick simply to the basic facts; without added colour. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 22:33, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved.

Muscroft boys

I've added brief potted biographies of Duncan and Richard to the Hedley Muscroft article. I'm thinking of creating redirects for the two sons to an appropriate section in the Hedley article, since I'm doubtful they're notable in their own right (marginal at best). Not something I've done before (I think). There is a {{R from relative}} which seems to indicate that this approach is acceptable. WP:BLARing is quite a frequent option when articles are deleted and this seems to lead to a similar situation. Any thoughts. Nigej (talk) 09:55, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I would do. I have been looking at various golfing families and was considering the same for many of them, with family articles if appropriate. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 11:08, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

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Disambiguation link notification for April 8

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited 2023 Masters Tournament, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Putt.

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purse/pro-am edits

Hey I noticed on Saturday that you reversed some of my edits re: mid-century British golfers. I'm fine with most of them but have a couple issues.

• I deleted a purse win by Dai Rees and you reverted this. Though there is a citation I thought we came to a consensus a couple years ago that purse wins should not be included in the Wins totals.
• I deleted three pro-am victories by Christy O'Connor Snr and you reverted them. You noted these were "different kinds of pro-ams." What is so special about them?

Any clarification would be helpful.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 15:45, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't recall any discussion – do you have a link? Otherwise, I see no reason not to include the Pro Purse for Rees. Some pro-ams are proper 36 to 90-hole tournaments in their own right (Dunhill Links, Pebble Beach, etc.) and include an individual professional event, whereas others are simple pre-tournament 18-hole better-ball or team competitions. We generally include the former but not the latter. I'd also say that if an event is included on the player's WGHoF profile, we should probably not be excluding it. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 16:17, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

About a year and half or two years ago we had this discussion on the main talk page about what wins were permissible for inclusion. I believe we came to the conclusion that these tournaments should not be tabulated: pro-ams, club championship, schoolboy championships, purse wins, medalist honors at qualifying events, and trainee tournaments. I remember User: Nigej was involved and some other members. Nige, do you have access to this link? If not, I will go searching for it when I have more time tomorrow.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:35, 17 April 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Ok, I've had a search and think you are probably referring to this discussion. If so, and as you noted yourself, there isn't really consensus for any kind removal of verifiable wins. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 22:59, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Hey, that discussion is relevant however I was thinking more of "legitimacy of skins games and qualifying events wins" under Archive #14. Also Archive #13 contains "Notability of early career wins" which is also relevant. In all cases, nonetheless, it looks like we have never come to a firm consensus.

I am open to both inclusion and exclusion of pro-ams and purse events though I think I lean a little more towards exclusion. I'm just not sure that every championship reported by a newspaper reporter is fundamentally notable. Including pro-am and purse wins could be seriously challenging for highly successful golfers as their pages could become cluttered with all these somewhat insignificant wins.

Nonetheless, I am open to both ideas. I think a good starting point would be to find out the notability of these wins within the context of Wikipedia's rules.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 23:45, 18 April 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Sunshine Tour Order of Merit

What's the issue in using the common name (European Tour)? Jimmymci234 (talk) 17:13, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

We should used the current name when appropriate, and the common name otherwise. In this context, the current name seems most appropriate. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 17:20, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Not saying you're wrong but we have consistently used and applied European Tour common naming throughout the project. Agreed upon two discussions [1] and [2], it just seems strange to me to use "DP World" naming here so prevalently, especially as the rest of the 2021–22 Sunshine Tour article uses European Tour naming. Jimmymci234 (talk) 17:47, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

For me, the difference is between referring to specific seasons and referring to the tour as an entity in a more general context. Additionally, a significant period of time has elapsed since we had those discussions and DPWT has become commonplace in general reporting, and as such I would now probably lean towards renaming the relevant season articles accordingly – this would be inline with how the Ben Hogan/Nike/Nationwide/Web.com/Korn Ferry Tour articles are named; NB: this wouldn't affect the main article which is titled for the organisation rather than its principal tour. Personally, I continue to use ET in all contexts, but that should have no bearing on what we use here. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 17:58, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

I get what you're saying and it's kind of a tricky situation we're left in as effectively all reports are using DPWT name. I would hold back on the KFT comparison though as that tour has never had a common name and has always been sponsored. There isn't any current similar comparisons (I can think of) outside the Japan Challenge Tour, sponsor titled as AbemaTV Tour, but that gets so little coverage, there's no comparison to be made. Although I still find it interesting that their website is still europeantour.com. Jimmymci234 (talk) 18:26, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

The Grange Golf Club

Hello, Wjemather,

Please do not draftify an article more than once or it becomes move-warring. An editor has the right to object to an article being moved to Draft space and revert the page move. At this point, you can help improve the article or, if you feel it is called for, use one of Wikipedia's deletion processes. Thank you for all of your contributions! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:32, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

why do you revert my contributions?

Hey, I am not sure who you are or why you delete contributions, but I have followed all guidelines and added the links to backup the information I contributed with. can I please ask you not to do that again?thanks. Carloslm1988 (talk) 09:49, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

@Carloslm1988: Your additions were promotional in nature and did not accurately reflect the nature of these arrangements/partnerships/products. Please remember this is an encyclopedia and not everything is suitable for inclusion. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 10:03, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

what are you talking about? I just stick to the news. BetVictor had a partnership with LFC for 3 years, thats missign on the page and its interesting info. Fulham had one year partnership with BetVictor too.

Furthermore, BetVictor open B2B and its operating on behalf of a number of operators, how is that irrelevant or promotional in nature?? please stop reverting my content or I will not have any other choice but report you.

thanks Carloslm1988 (talk) 10:07, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bwin

please do not delete facts.

thank you Carloslm1988 (talk) 10:21, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

@Carloslm1988: We do not include every minor sponsorship/partnership that companies have with other organisations – that would be WP:UNDUE and WP:PROMOtional, and violate WP:NOTEVERYTHING. You also do not seem to understand the nature of these arrangements and are mis-representing them. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 10:22, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

please quote exactly what the content violated, as opposed to just give your opinion and misrepresent the situation. You dont seem to understand the nature of Wikipedia nor advertising to be honest. Wikipedia is for all and anybody that likes to know information about a particular thing that someone previously searched for. You shouldnt have a decision on whether or not something should be published based on your opinion, if you have anything to object - please quote the article that was compromised within the Wikipedia guidelines. "too much information for sponsorship seems like a very subjective opinion that does not violate anything and its not advertising nature since this happened and its not link to any particular promotion or advertising, just facts. Me, as a betting person and football fan, find that information very interesting... probably the same to you if this was talking about GOLF.

PLease do not delete relevant information for a page that represents the truth, since users like me are interested on reading such information. Thanks Carloslm1988 (talk) 10:32, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

@Carloslm1988: It's fairly obvious why having an article with over half the content detailing sponsorship (the sole purpose of which is promotion) and brand partnerships (highlighted in bold) violates the policies above (as well as WP:MOS). And, to repeat/clarify, brand partnerships (effectively acting as service provider/operator) are not "company expansion". _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 10:57, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

So BetVictor & Bild creating a new Brand that sits under BetVictor Gaming and its called BildBet and operates in Germany, is that a service?

how is that promotional content? Please throw some light here, what is that I am trying to promote???

A user searching for "TalkSPORTS BET" or "Heartbingo" see that they belong to BetVictor group, how is that promotional content and not informational? Same as any user searching for BetVictor that would like knowing they partnered up with Liverpool during 3 years or bwin partnered up with Real Madrid.

If you consider it "Promotional" just because its highlighted in bold (its a listing), that is a specific point that have a very easy solution rather than deleting the entire content.

If you consider it "Promotional" just because its very long content, you should know that any page is sensitive to be edited and more content can be added, the more, the better as long as it keeps relevancy.

Please be specific rather than destructive and try being a helthly asset for the community. Its very sad to see old contributors and relevant contributors like you doing such a poor moderation.

Thanks a please stop this behaviour Carloslm1988 (talk) 11:21, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

@Carloslm1988: It's simple marketing. In some cases, BetVictor is operating as a service provider to these "partner" organisations, in others their are simply using the brand as a promotional tool for a specific market. Neither can be considered company expansion. These individual arrangements/products do not require separate paragraphs and pseudo-headings to draw undue attention to them. As for the promotional tone, phases like "most popular gaming brands" are a just press release/advertising copy that have no place here. I rewrote what you added into a single coherent encyclopedic paragraph, to fix these problems, and you reverted it. Why? _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 11:36, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

hey, sorry I was tweaking a bit the "most popular radio brand" and things like that. Can you check now? also unbond the list. Carloslm1988 (talk) 11:44, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I have merged the statements into paragraphs, added links to related articles, and removed duplication, circular and red (non-notable) links, and excessive detail. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 11:00, 27 April 2023 (UTC)