User talk:Tekleni/Archive 1

Welcome!

Hello, Tekleni, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• The five pillars of Wikipedia
• How to edit a page
• Help pages
• Tutorial
• How to write a great article
• Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  Jkelly 16:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Phonetics

Hi, thanks for your contributions. About a few matters of phonetics: You asked about the flapping in Modern Greek /r/. Yes, I think (from introspection) flaps are common; I'll check if it's mentioned like that in the reference grammars. About your changes to the transcription in the Greece article: I'm not really convinced we need such a narrow transcription here. A broader, roughly phoneme-level transcription seems fine to me, and more easily understandable to the non-linguist. That means, no raising/lowering diacritics on vowels and stuff. Also, using [k] instead of [c] for palatalised /k/ seems fine to me - the palatal nature is not phonologically distinctive there, and I'm not even sure if it actually is fully palatal at all, as opposed to only somewhat palatalised. I'm also not sure about the secondary stress marks you inserted. Do you have a reference that secondary stress is at all relevant in Greek? I don't think I've ever come across it, and some of the marks you inserted seem quite counterintuitive to me. [e̞ˌliniˈci ðiˌmo̞kɾaˈtia]? If anything, I'd say a secondary stress might be on the first syllable of each word, but on the second? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:16, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Something else: sorry I've semi-reverted you on Megleno-Romanians. I really don't think "repatriation" fits here (it only applies to sending people back where they came from, in my understanding of the term), and "expulsion" is quite correct, that's exactly what happened. People were forcefully removed from their homes, it makes no difference that it was legalised by a treaty between the governments. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Kalhspera...

...kai kalws hr8es. Ti shmainei Tzekai? •NikoSilver• 23:18, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Geia sou Tzekai kai kalws orises. Why did u restore the 'disputed' tag in Pontian Greek Genocide? so far, i have seen no source provided in the talk to dispute the title and content. if by saying 'i dispute this article' we can add such tags, this can happen in every article... Hectorian 13:55, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Epeidi kanenas kanonikos hristis den ta evgaze, mono ekino to IP to opoio mallon tha ine kapios apoklismenos hristis. An esy ta evgazes, de tha ekana tipota. --Tzekai 14:13, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Nomizw 8elei na rwthsei an 8a ta ebgazes esy h' an 8a ta ebazes kai me poia logikh.•NikoSilver• 21:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Pote 8a energopoihseis to e-mail sou? Kai bale kai kati sth selida sou na mh fainesai kokkinos san kokkinopsaro. YG:Tzekai ti 8a pei nte? :-) •NikoSilver• 14:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

DYK

On 24 September, 2006, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Muslim minority of Greece, which you created. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

Re: PASOK and ROM

If you wish to rvt my entry on the Chrisochoydes quote in the 'Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)' article, on the grounds that it has been covered or is irrelevant to this particular article, please do so. You may well have a point and I will not be re-introducing it. Politis 12:09, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

No problem, it's fine now. Sorry for seeming less willing to discuss it with you earlier (communicating through edit summaries etc). --Tzekai 13:06, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Threats

Tzekai, as one of the most active editors in Transnistria related articles, let me please thank you for your interest in our little corner of Wikipedia. Your contributions are very welcome. Please don't be scared off by threats by User:MariusM. We have all had to deal with his antics, sometimes anonymously, and sometimes in his own name. He also tries to rally meatpuppets to gang up on anyone who doesn't accept his blatant POV-edits. I have personally been the target of several attempts of his to report me for 3RR violations just for cleaning up after him, but never got blocked (see my block log) simply because the admins have seen this kind of behavior from people like him before and know what they are dealing with. He is a new editor who joined Wikipedia about a month ago. Since he came, I've been spending 3 times as much time as before and almost none of it has been on productive editing but merely to keep him from distorting the facts. Stick around, and hopefully you will have thick skin to deal with people like him. Again, welcome! - Mauco 14:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Not fair from you Mauco telling lies about me, but I am used to your behaviour. I never edited articles in Wikipedia anonimously. Is you who distorted the facts and make other people lose their time cleaning after you.--MariusM 14:20, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Sigh... here we go again. Fortunately, the Talk page of the referendum article is public record - as are the logs - so anyone who has the inclination can easily see who is right and who is wrong. It is also not considered good behavior to threaten other editors with blocking them for vandalism, as you did to to user Tzekai, for making an edit which is in accordance with consensus of the other editors on that particular page and which you, personally, just don't agree with. - Mauco 15:49, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Transnistrian referendum

Please put back the paragraph in Transnistrian referendum, 2006. I can not put it back, because of 3RR.--MariusM 16:50, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

In process. --Tzekai 16:56, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

NO, WAIT TO SEE WHAT OTHERS HAVE TO SAY! WHAT IS THE HURRY? GIVE THE OTHERS A CHANCE TO HAVE AN OPINION TOO. - 88.191.12.12 16:57, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

So what should I do? Or better yet, you do it for me... --Tzekai 16:59, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi T., please see Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Transnistrian referendum, 2006 which has me surprised on two counts:
1. MariusM jumps straight to mediation, without following any of the prior recommended steps in WP:DR
2. MariusM lists "involved parties" misleading. In the past week, he has been reverted over this by me, you, Khoikhoi, Pernambuco, Mikka, Int19h. Yet he leaves out you, Khoikhoi, Pernambuco, Mikka and instead lists as "party to the dispute" a friend of his (Peteris Cedrins) who is not involved in the dispute at all and in fact doesn't have a single edit to the article in main namespace. Comments?- Mauco 12:47, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Who cares? If anyone else considers themselves involved parties, they can add their name to the list. Also, mediation is pretty harmless, and for it to succeed, it requires a good faith attempt from both parties. Who knows, maybe Marius is planning on making such an attempt. Wouldn't it be a shame to let that go to waste?--Tekleni 12:52, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Good points, which I shall certainly ponder. - Mauco 11:37, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

BTW, why is the article Transnistria not at Pridnestrovie. It is the official and self-identifying name of the entity, isn't it?--Tekleni 12:52, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, by law. However, we applied the Google test and found that of all names in use, Transnistria was the most common. We had this discussion in April (it is in the archives, under "Naming"). There is the same sort of issue with Burma/Myanmar, although in that particular case, Wikipedia actually redirs to the official name. - Mauco 11:37, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

DYK

On 1 October, 2006, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Shudokan, which you created. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

Reply

I know that he wasn't insulting my mother, but he has been condecending like that for sometime.. He is extremely unconstructive and has some sort of problem with Turks.. I don't know if that is because he is new to Wiki or what.. The text that I took was from his question in the Wiki help desk - please have a look [1].. You see what I mean? As if no Arab, French, Turk, Greek or German ever uses their own languages between themselves! :)) I mean, trust me, if he was talking about the French, there would be a civil war right now!! In any case, have a good day :).. Baristarim 18:06, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I know, we all should be punished :)) 98 percent of the article talk pages are in English, so I don't see the problem, it's not like there is this anti-English conspiracy to bringdown English Wiki or anything! It is normal for people to use their own language between themselves; even so, I think the fact that many people still use English between their nationals as much as possible is also something to be applauded - it could have been worse you know! cheers Baristarim 18:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Conspiring in Turkish or Greek is redundant. Check my talk remark #2! •NikoSilver• 18:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It certainly is - foreign languages (least of all French) aren't that hard to decode. --Tzekai 18:41, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Τραπεζούντα

Thanks again for the help, I was wondering...which transliteration do you think would be best for the Trabzon article? (I'm starting to get confused) ;-) —Khoikhoi 23:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I hadn't noticed the changes you made to the article (ignore the above message). —Khoikhoi 23:03, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I do think, however, that we should still mention "Trapezus" (not "Trapezoûs") because it's common in English. —Khoikhoi 23:04, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

No problem, "Trapezus" is acceptable according to Transliteration of Greek to the Latin alphabet according to the traditional variety for ancient Greek. --Tzekai 23:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok cool. See you around. —Khoikhoi 23:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Greek motto

Hi! You are probably right about the fact that there are as many sources for "Ελευθερία ή θάνατος" than for the UK motto; still, are you able to provide one? Maybe it's because I don't speak Greek, but I couldn't find any reliable source showing that the motto is still in use today. As far as I can tell, it is not mentioned in the constitution, it does not appear on the coat of arms or on the coins or notes (neither drachma nor euro)... The only references I found either mention only the early 19th century, or are provably unreliable. If you are able to help, it would be much appreciated. Pruneau^talk 01:12, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Muslim minority of Greece

Err, sorry, no, I don't think I'm POV pushing. The Pomaks are Bulgarian Muslims and speak a Bulgarian dialect at home and among themselves, it's their principal language, so I thought providing no education in it is at least of some importance. Not sure that most of them actually identify as Turks (which they're apparently not), I'd be more inclined to believe they identify as Muslims or Pomaks. If they identified as Turks there would've been a Turkish minority in Greece recognized rather than a Muslim one, no?

I don't know what the Pomaks want and don't want, but apparently their own language and origin are not respected in that case (both by the confessional grouping with two unrelated ethnic groups and by providing education only in Turkish). Notice that I didn't add this to the article, I only added an undisputable fact without commenting on it. Your edit is POV, unsourced and in my opinion unnecessary. Todor→Bozhinov 16:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

You seem to have a really wrong idea on what the Pomaks want. I'll tell you one thing the separate Pomak identity is actively promoted by the Greek government, you have more chances of getting a decent public sector job if you declare as a Pomak than as a Turk. In theory, public official usage of Pomak is permitted if speakers opt to do it; the problem is they never do. They consider this promotion of a Pomak identity to be a divide and rule effort, please read the GHM article on the issue [2]. As for the term referring to the minority, it was Turkish minority until the 1980s, until it was rebranded a Muslim minority in a feeble attempt to preserve the non-Turkish ethnicities within the group. According to a Greek magazine I was reading the other day, the Pomak language has been standardized and uses a Latin alphabet (I can't find much on the Net, but there is this dictionary [3]). Interestingly though, if an official division of the minority were to occur, there would certainly be a Turkish outcry which would most likely have the support of the Pomaks. The Pomaks' legal right to education in their own language is guaranteed under the Treaty of Lausanne. If no one wants it, that is not the Greek government's fault like you presented it. I find you edit gives the impression that the Greek government is maliciously withholding Pomak language education against the will of the community when this is not the case. --Tzekai 16:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I don't know what they want, so, basically I can't have a wrong idea if I have none. I'm not trying to present things in a bad way, I just added an undisputable fact without saying whether it's good, bad or whatever. It doesn't mention whose fault it is, and I don't see anything POV with it to be honest.

I personally may not have a positive view on the Greek government's treatment of minorities (inventing a "Slavic" language and a Pomak language, etc.), but I'm perfectly aware this is a personal point of view and I always try to edit in a neutral manner.

That said, I don't find your solution quite acceptable, but I'm not going to edit war over it, it's not really an important issue or anything (I wouldn't have edit warred even if it was). You can even remove the whole thing if you wish. And thanks for the link, it's quite curious indeed :) I was quite surprised to see this crazy bridge design can also be found across the border! Todor→Bozhinov 17:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you think the article's better now? As for Greece's treatment of minorities: the Muslim minority has more practical benefits than all Greek minorities worldwide (Italy, Albania, Turkey etc). I think that everyone neighboring Greece should stop complaining about the Slavic (not Bulgarian), Arvanite (not Albanian), Vlach (not Romanian) languages - the Greek Muslims in Turkey mostly self-identify über-nationalistic Turks, yet no one in Greece is complaining about it (probably because they are Muslims and are considered foreigners, whereas the Turkish-speaking Greek-identifying Christians are considered normal Greeks). It's mainly to do with one's approach to ethnicity: as far as most Greeks are concerned, ethnicity is based on national consciousness (which may or may not be affected by religion, e.g. the Greek-speakers in southern Italy are Catholics). Language is immaterial. --Tekleni 18:12, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

PS, sorry I changed my username (Special:Log/renameuser) in the middle of the discussion ;-) --Tekleni 18:12, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Yep, I'm entirely satisfied with the current version :) Thanks and congrats on the new username! :)

As for Greece and ethnicity, I'm not saying the system or the treatment of minorities is essentially bad, it's just that particular features of it do not appeal to me at all. In Bulgaria, language has traditionally been quite an important trait of every ethnic group (there are besides the majority Orthodox also some Roman Catholic and Muslim Bulgarians) and it is the language besides the history that the Bulgarian nation was actually based on, as the dominant religion was shared with Serbs, Greeks, Romanians, etc. Of course, consciousness and self-identification matter today. Todor→Bozhinov 19:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Shkoder

Well, the whole thing can be observed here. The main issue is that Tonycdp is an abusive editor (he has been defined as such by the Arbitration Committee) that has pretended to be four different people to further his POV on Kosovo. As a result of the Arbitration, he was banned from Kosovo-related articles. He also has a tendency to swear (curse) in Spanish, so other people don't recognize. I was even more shocked when I saw his edits on Shkoder. --PaxEquilibrium 18:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

??

What is your problem dude?? I will ask you to be more civil.. I am not a grey wolf, but a communist, they are exactly the opposite, first of all.. And please stop doing stuff just to piss me off, it is very lame - you should go get a life.. In the article mentioned, there is already a tag at the top, it covers the WHOLE article.. I mean, do you have a problem understanding that or what? As for the article that is giving u so much pain, I will repeat the same thing: there are not enough, sorry, NO academic sources to back up what is written, if you read the talk page carefully, you will see that even users who are neither Greek or Turkish agree that most of the text is babbling of politicians, clear? Ok, I thought so.. Now please try to positively contribute to wiki instead of stalking people - coz whatever u do my fellow, I ain't going to back down, I can also stalk people.. So put things in context.. :)) Baristarim 04:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the Grey Wolf thing (it was mostly echoing your admirable comments about Mitsos), please don't threaten, and what else exactly is it you want from me? --Tekleni 07:47, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

In that regard, I really don't know which conflict is worse: A Turk vs a Greek, or a Communist vs a White Supremacist? I think this combination sounds more like TNT!!•NikoSilver• 13:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Tunbs Islands

Dear Tekleni, I noticed you made an edit to Greater and Lesser Tunbs article. I'd like to ask you for a bit of help, you seem to be a reasonable person. I'm a new editor and I've been trying to add a few corrections to that article and make it more neutral, but everytime I write anything, a group of Iranian editors comes and wipes out everything. They don't even bother to respond to me on the talk page. I'm quite frustrated, because it seems clear the only reason they are doing that is it doesn't fit in with their national opinions. I've asked admins for help, but nobody wants to get involved, everybody just says I should follow "dispute resolution". Can you help me and watch the article a bit so it doesn't get blindly reverted all the time? I don't mind if they correct any errors I make, but at the moment they seem to be intent on just wiping out anything I do just because I wrote it. FellFairy 06:36, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Ponticide

Kindly add those two citations in the article (Totten and Jacobs, Colin Tatz and Cohn Jatz). I can't trace them. •NikoSilver• 13:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Checked your e-mail? Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:16, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi

Do you have an e-mail address or MSN id, I'd like to have a chat with you. --ManiF 19:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, just click here.--Tekleni 19:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Done, please check your e-mail. ManiF

Check your bulk mail, it could be there. Nothing yet? --ManiF 19:56, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, check again, I sent it directly. ManiF

Hi, please check your e-mail again. --ManiF 20:25, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Pontian Greek Genocide

Hi Tekleni, It is important to keep a cool head, especially when responding to comments against you or your edits. Personal attacks and disruptive comments only escalate a situation; please keep calm and remember that action can be taken against other parties if necessary. Attacking another user back can only satisfy trolls or anger contributors and leads to general bad feeling. Please try to remain civil with your comments. Thanks! --Awiseman 19:14, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I get the point, thanks for reminding me.--Tekleni 19:18, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Btw, in my last edit summary I also referred to your criticism of Mkdrt because of his English, but there was an edit-conflict, so I hadn't seen your previous edit where u mentioned it again.. Sorry :) Baristarim 19:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

No problem. I shouldn't have said it anyway...--Tekleni 19:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

And thanks for the apology too, that is good of you. --Awiseman 19:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Sou esteila epeigon ilektroniko minima. Miskin 18:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC) Auto einai to ligotero, einai ola ta edits pou ekane meta to teleutaio to diko mou. Miskin 18:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

3RV

YOU are in danger with this rule. I made edits not RV. You made RV. See the History. Mustafa Akalp 18:01, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Stara Zagora

{{spam1}} CRCulver 19:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

While I suspect the link is linkspam, the reason I have placed the spam1 template on your Talk page is because this template contains the proper wording for all manner of inappropriate links. WP is not a link directory. The page needs GFDL images, but linking to some amateur *free.bg site whose images are useless for us is not beneficial. CRCulver 19:36, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Do NOT remove warnings from your page. Reverting warnings, even if you suspect they are inappropriate, can get you banned. Contact an admin if you're unhappy, but do not ever remove a template warning from your Talk page. CRCulver 19:36, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I only saw TB rv-ing once. If he did it again, I'd place the template. And I'm not "taking the word of a n00b", but rather I'm just ensuring the same thing on Stara Zagora that is done on many location articles: removing links to questionable outside image galleries. From Thessaloniki to Cluj Napoca, external image galleries have been criticized as inappropriate. By the way, calling said user a "n00b" is bad-faith, let's not have that. Since you continue to remove the warning, I will now contact an admin. Hope you'll be blocked for a good period. CRCulver 19:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

3RR doesn't apply to vandalism, or to reverting the intentional removal of warnings from Talk pages. Wait until an admin chimes in, and then according to tradition only the warning should be removed, not the whole discussion. CRCulver 19:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Turkish Cypriots

Any particular way you have in mind as to how Turkish Cypriots should be treated then? Just curious. Expatkiwi

C of OE

I put a post on the talk page.. Can u please tell me what is wrong with my edit? Please dont view my edits with suspicion, I wasnt denying any persian influence.. Islamic culture covers Persian and Arabic cultures, and Byzantie culture covers the others mentioned.. I think that with that intro we can avoid revert warring.. I would appreciate if you contacted me to explain why that version is worse than the current version.. regardsBaristarim 11:11, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Where did u run into this? I can guess, Net is a big big place :))

"*Aim of Megali Idea was to:

• To kick out the Turkish Nation from the lands that it lives;
• Create the Greater Greece by assuming that Macedonian lands were theirs.
• Greece persued this policy onwards from 1830, when it gained its independence, until 1922, thanks to "the weakness of the OE" and "help of foreign powers" (texts in yellow).."

The text is supposed to continue though, the last sentence was cut into two.. cheers! Baristarim 12:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Ya!

Des to e-mail su... —Khoikhoi 08:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

To emathes vlepo ;-) --Tekleni 08:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC) (I see you learnt that)

Ne ne ne. :-) —Khoikhoi 09:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply

Πρωτα απ' ολα ηρεμησε. Διαβασε τι εγραψα στο talk tou User:Politis. Λευκη φυλη υπαρχει και χωριζεται σε βορεια, μεσογειακη κ.α. Οσο για τον ερντογαν, πολλοι τουρκοι ειναι βιολογικα λευκοι (καταγονται απο μικρασιατες ελληνες), αλλα η κουλτουρα τους δεν ειναι λευκη και αυτο μετραει πιο πολλυ. Mitsos 18:29, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

t/c in cyprus

I agree totaly with your views on expatkiwi's talk page. I think turkish cypriots were 40% before the invasion so they should have 40% of the government --Slogankid 06:47, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi there

I saw that you made a constructive edit on Persian Language. Can you please look at my last comment here. FellFairy is insisting on adding an original research quote and attributing it to Oxford dictionary based on his own assertions of what the source says or implies, this is against WP:OR. --Mardavich 12:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

User:Zaparojdik

It doesn't much matter that the user has a shorter amount of time in which to respond to the deletion of all of the copyvio uploads, as there isn't anything that we can do to "save" them; they are completely unusable for us. Jkelly 16:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Antalya

The addition wasn't being removed because it was irrelevant, but because it was being added by a suspected sock (?) of a perma-banned user. Now that somebody valid has added it, though, I'm sure it'll stay. - ¡Kribbeh!^Speak!\_Contribs 16:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

yes, he is (regarding mauco) [4]