User talk:Harryawhite

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Welcome![edit]

Hello, Harryawhite, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

You may also want to complete the Wikipedia Adventure, an interactive tour that will help you learn the basics of editing Wikipedia. You can visit the Teahouse to ask questions or seek help.

Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask for help on your talk page, and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! Nardog (talk) 23:27, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

April 2019[edit]

Information icon Hello, I'm Nardog. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions to Tongva have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the help desk. If you want the article name to be changed, you'll need to follow the steps described at WP:RM#CM. Nardog (talk) 23:28, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Stop icon
You have been blocked indefinitely from editing because your account is being used only for vandalism.
If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.  Drmies (talk) 21:35, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

*Did you have fun with your racist vandalism? Drmies (talk) 21:46, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • I see now what you were doing. It's hard to tell whether this was just trolling or racist trolling. But if you had been genuine about your single-handed effort to change something, you would have a. cited sources and b. not dropped a bunch of derogatory stuff in the article. Drmies (talk) 00:48, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Harryawhite, Nardog made a plea for you to be unblocked, so here you go. Please edit according to our guidelines. Drmies (talk) 13:46, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Harryawhite, Wikipedia abides by community consensus. Even though editors are encouraged to edit "boldly"—that is, without explicit permission by someone else—once someone disagrees with you and challenges your edit, you are required to explain yourself and find approval or a middle ground before you can make the same edit again. If you keep reinstating your edits instead of engaging in a conversation with other editors, you will be blocked. If you want the article to refer to its subject by a different name, make a proposal at Talk:Tongva before you edit the article directly. Nardog (talk) 14:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your submission at Articles for creation: James Rosemeyre (April 19)[edit]

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Boothsift was:
This submission's references do not show that the subject qualifies for a Wikipedia article—that is, they do not show significant coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject (see the guidelines on the notability of people). Before any resubmission, additional references meeting these criteria should be added (see technical help and learn about mistakes to avoid when addressing this issue). If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia.
 The comment the reviewer left was:
The Amazon link is not really useful
Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.
BoothSift 00:01, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Teahouse logo
Hello, Harryawhite! Having an article declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! BoothSift 00:01, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Please delete Draft:James Rosemeyre. Thanks,Harryawhite (talk) 22:04, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tongva is a misnomer[edit]

"There is no real historical support for the term "Tongva."[1]There is however, historical support and legitimacy for the name Kij or Kizh (pronounced keech),[2]which is a name being used by many of the Gabrielenos today,[3]"what they," the Kizh Nation, the original Indian Tribe of the greater Los Angeles area "want to be called."[4]The word "Kizh" itself refers to the willow houses they lived in[5] for several thousand years before the arrival of the Spanish.[6]The term "Tongva" appears to be a post-contact (with a Mrs. James Rosemeyre[7]) coinage, i.e., invention of a new word:[8]C. Hart Merriam, the 'Father of Mammalogy, having became an ethnographer, though he had no formal training in the field,[9]began focusing on the ethnology of California Indians circa 1910.[10]Circa 1933, Merriam, recording (on aluminum discs[11]) from J.P.Harrington's linguistic and ethnographic field notes having to do with Gabrieleno vocabulary, for one, uttered Tongva (pronounced Tongvay) into the michrophone,[12]and recorded a new word. Jesus Jauro, Harrington's principal Gabrieleno consultant, "used to hear his mother saying to' onve of a person talking … Gabrieleno,"[13]that to' onve may be a rancheria, a name of a San Gabriel locality.[14]Harrington dutifully wrote down to' onve, but Merriam recorded Tongva.[15]It is believed that Merriman glitched to' onve into Tongva and wrongfully attributed it as the name of the Gabrieleno tribe.[16]Merriman later published his misinterpretation in a paper.[17]There is historical support and legitimacy for the Kizh, in a book published in 1909 by a priest of the San Gabriel Mission.[18]There is support and legitimacy for the Kizh long before Merriman coined the misnomer "Tongva." In his book[19]Fr. Sugranes says, "The language spoken by the San Gabriel Mission Indians was the Kizh. He gives the reader the Lord's Prayer in the Kizh dialect. Furthermore, Hubert Howe Bancroft, the great ethnologist, wrote this in 1883: "Returning to California, let us examine the three languages, Kizh, Netela, and Kechi spoken near the missions of San Gabriel, San Juan Capistrano, and San Luis Rey, respectively, …"[20]"Unfortunately, the term of "tongva" was promoted by persons claiming to be Gabrieleno Indians. They were so effective at promoting this false concept in the 1980s and 1990s that they not only got the general public to believe it (the term does sound Indian as did Tonto of Lone Ranger fame) but they even got some genuine tribal members to believe it as well."[21]KIZH Nation Gabrieleno Band of Mission Indians [22]statement: "The Gabrielenos were first known by the Spanish as Kicherenos … they were the people who canoed out to greet Spanish explorer Juan Cabrillo … in 1542. Their original name Kizh … lost through assimilation into Spanish culture … Today academia continues to desecrate our true name, culture and history by promoting the misnomer of Tongva," says Ernest Perez, Teutimez, Salas, Tribal Chief and spiritual leader of the Kizh Nation.[23]"In 1994 the state of California recognized the Gabrieleno Tribal Council, 'Gabrieleno' - without the use of the term Tongva.[24]

References

  1. ^ https://www.amazon.com/Gabriel-Images-America-Richard-Arnold/dp/1467130613
  2. ^ https://www.amazon.com/Gabriel-Images-America-Richard-Arnold/dp/1467130613
  3. ^ https://www.amazon.com/Gabriel-images-America-Richard-Arnold/dp/1467130613
  4. ^ WHY THE ORIGINAL INDIAN TRIBE OF THE GREATER LOS ANGELES AREA IS CALLED KIZH NOT TONGVA by E. Gary Stickel, Ph.D (UCLA)
  5. ^ WHY THE ORIGINAL TRIBE OF THE GREATER LOS ANGELES AREA IS CALLED KIZH NOT TONGVA by E. Gary Stickel Ph.D (UCLA)
  6. ^ "Prehistoric milling site found in California". USA Today. March 3, 2006. Retrieved February 2, 2016.
  7. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongva_language
  8. ^ https://www.amazon.com/California-Indian-Languages-Victor-Golla/dp/0520266676
  9. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_Hart_Merriam
  10. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_Hart_Merriam
  11. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_disc
  12. ^ https://www.amazon.com/California-Indian-Languages-Victor-Golla/dp/0520266676
  13. ^ https://www.amazon.com/California-Indian-Languages-Victor-Golla/dp/0520266676
  14. ^ https://www.amazon.com/California-Indian-Languages-Victor-Golla/dp/0520266676
  15. ^ https://www.amazon.com/California-Indian-Languages-Victor-Golla/dp/0520266676
  16. ^ WHY THE ORIGINAL INDIAN TRIBE OF THE GREATER LOS ANGELES AREA IS CALLED KIZH NOT TONGVA by E. Gary Stickel, Ph.D (UCLA)
  17. ^ In Studies of California Indians, University of California Press, Berkeley and Los Angeles, pp. 77-86
  18. ^ The Old San Gabriel Mission, by the Rev. Eugene Sugranes, C.M.F. published in San Gabriel, CA feb. 2, 1909
  19. ^ The Old San Gabriel Mission, Chapter VI
  20. ^ The Works of Hubert Howe Bancroft, Vol.III, The Native Races, Myths and Languages, San Francisco, A.L. Bancroft & Company, Publishers. 1883
  21. ^ WHY THE ORIGINAL INDIAN TRIBE OF THE GREATER LOS ANGELES AREA IS CALLED KIZH AND NOT TONGVA by E. Gary Stickel, Ph.D (UCLA)
  22. ^ http://gabrielenoindians.org/
  23. ^ http://gabrielenoindians.org/
  24. ^ http://gabrielenoindians.org/

Your submission at Articles for creation: The People of the Willowhouse (May 1)[edit]

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Bkissin was:
Thank you for your submission, but the subject of this article already exists in Wikipedia. You can find it and improve it at Tongva instead.
Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.
Bkissin (talk) 14:10, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I wish to recover my draft for "The People of the Willowhouse," if possible, after all the hard work I put into it. It breaks my heart that the Kizh Nation (San Gabriel Band of Mission Indians) has to put up with being referred to as "Tongva," after a group of cultural appropriators contacted Wikipedia (before the Kizh had a chance) and got the editors to accept (them) without looking into their legitimacy. There is no such thing as a Tongva Nation. Wikipedia got suckered by a bunch of so and sos trying to get the okay from the Feds to build a "Tongva" casino. I tried to set the record straight with "The People of the Willowhouse" and all I got for my efforts was "the subject already exists." Yes, the people exist, but 22:38, 10 January 2020 (UTC)Harryawhite (talk)Tongva does not. Does Wikipedia have any idea how evil it is to call a people something they don't want to be called? All references to "Tongva" should be removed and replaced with Kizh Nation or People of the Willowhouse, later the San Gabriel Band of Mission Indians. I tried my best to set the record straight. Shame on Wikipedia. Harryawhite (talk) 22:38, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

May 2019[edit]

Information icon Hello, I'm Rsrikanth05. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions to Tongva have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the help desk. Rsrikanth05 (talk) 16:28, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your submission at Articles for creation[edit]

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.
  • If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to the submission and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
  • If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to the submission, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "{{db-self}}" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.
  • If you do not make any further changes to your draft, in 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
  • If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.
Harryawhite (talk) 17:30, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My article was declined because the subject - Tongva - already exists. But my subject is Kizh. Is there any thing I can do to improve my article for acceptanceHarryawhite (talk) 17:30, 1 May 2019 (UTC)?[reply]

Request on 17:42:53, 1 May 2019 for assistance on AfC submission by Harryawhite[edit]


My article was declined because the subject - Native Americans - already exists, Yes, my subject concerns Native Americans but the existing article concerns Tongva Native Americans and my submission concerns Kizh Native Americans. Is there anything I can do to make my article more acceptable or is it dead in the water because  "the subject already exists?Harryawhite (talk) 17:42, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]


Information icon Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Category:Tongva populated places. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted.

Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive. Continued disruptive editing may result in loss of editing privileges. Thank you. ST47 (talk) 01:16, 4 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]


I propose that the article "Tongva" be deleted: Why-the-original-indian-tribe-of-the-greater-los-angeles-area-is-called-kizh-not-tongva.html</ref> Long before 1993, twenty-six years ago, which is a short span of time in the history of the Gabrielenos, the only legitimate band of San Gabriel Mission Indians did everything they could to hang on to their heritage.[1] Persevering, they hung on as best they could dealing with priests and soldiers and the powerful nations and cultures of Spain and Mexico.[2][3] And persevering to this day they hang on as best they can dealing with the United States, the most powerful nation and culture of all. But doing what they can to hang on to what little is left of their heritage hasn't gotten any easier. In 1993 some outsiders, non-Indian academics, etc., began attending their meetings and boning up on their culture. Then these attendees went out and attached the word "Tongva" (sounds like "Tonto") to "Gabrieleno" and — Voila! — the Tongva-Gabrieleno tribe and the Tongva/Gabrieleno tribe out of thin air, in the hope of gaining federal recognition and developing a casino and making themselves fabulously wealthy, basically. Since 1993 the Gabrielenos have had to deal with the Tongva who purport to be Gabrielenos. Listen, neither the slash group nor the hyphen group will ever receive federal recognition, because there is no such thing as a tribe of Tongva. Federal recognition is not going to happen for these pretendians, ever. As for developing a casino, the State of California denied them in 1994. A casino is not going to happen for these pretendians, ever. But the hyphen and slash groups are far better, far more effective at promoting themselves (i.e., developing sources) than the original tribe, unfortunately; thus, Wikipedia gladly accepts articles such as "Tongva," "Tongva Populated Places," and "Tongva Language," etc., for publication, bogus though they may be; not to mention numerous others who are happy enough or gullible enough to publish Tongva articles, and books even, each of which does further harm to the San Gabriel Band of Mission Indians in their struggle to do what they can to hang on to what little is left of their heritage. And the Tongva will continue to promote themselves federal recognition or not, casino or not, come hell or high water. Make no mistake, each and every time someone reads the word "Tongva" the Gabrielenos fade a little further into history. As Tongva grows Gabrieleno fades. Any right-thinking individual would hate to see what little is left of their heritage disappear forever. I don't believe that Wikipedia knowingly supports these pretendians in their efforts to promote themselves into a common and accepted name but they do; ignorance is no excuse. The Gabrielenos, the legitimate band of Native Americans, should not be discarded and abandoned in favor of a bogus band that gets "more hits" or has a "more common name" — give the Gabrielenos a break! — putting too high a premium on or giving too much credence to promotion, i.e., making "more hits," bogus or not, the be-all and end-all in the discussion for acceptance for publication, is a big mistake. The Tongva admit in their Wikipedia article titled "Tongva" that the villages inhabited by the Gabrielenos (and other slaves of other missions) were inhabited by Native Americans who called themselves the "People of the Willowhouse." "Kizh" (the closest thing to a pan-tribal name for these Native Americans) or "People of the Willowhouse" is the only legitimate name, the only legitimate title for articles about these Native Americans or the villages they lived in or the language they spoke. Tongva this or Tongva that is illegitimate and harmful. In closing, neither the Tongva-Gabrielenos nor the Tongva/Gabrielenos have the right to attach the word "Tongva" to "Gabrieleno," and then promote the hell out of themselves for the sole benefit of themselves; furthermore, Wikipedia does not have the right to accept "Tongva" for its website — it's a slap in the face to the Gabrielenos, "The People of the Willowhouse." What's worse, it's blatant support of cultural appropriation by a bogus band of so-and-sos, pure and simple and evil. Harryawhite (talk) 18:36, 14 May 2019 (UTC)Harryawhite (talk) 23:36, 14 May 2019 (UTC) Should Wikipedia's editors, or whoever it is that decides whether or not an article should be deleted, do the right thing and delete "Tongva," I would be happy to fill in the gap with an article titled "The People of the Willowhouse," if approved by the Gabrielenos. I shall start right here in the next half hour.Harryawhite (talk) 15:22, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.gabrielenoindians.net/
  2. ^ https://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/gabrielino-indians.htm
  3. ^ https://openlibrary.org/books/OL4888365M/Handbook_of_the_Indians_of_California

Harryawhite (talk) 15:54, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Tongva[edit]

I see that you are trying to start a deletion nomination for Tongva. Unfortunately, I cannot understand what you are trying to say. In general, a wall of text does not work well. I have no idea if your concern is valid or not, but I can guarantee that balancing (a) an apparently well-referenced article, with (b) an impossible-to-understand wall of text, option (a) is going to win every single time. Please work on making a concise, clear, well-referenced summary of your concern and if it makes sense, we can try to address the concerns. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:02, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

May 2019[edit]

Stop icon This is your only warning; if you add defamatory content to Wikipedia again, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Drmies (talk) 20:52, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Floquenbeam, please look at what the editor said on my talk page about one of these people. Harryawhite, if you say something like that again I will block you, for a gross violation of the WP:BLP. (And besides that, your suggestion was ridiculous.) Drmies (talk) 20:55, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Seems like you've got it covered, Drmies; revdel'd content and warned user. If it helps clarify, Harryawhite I agree with Drmies you can't just make accusations about real people like that. But since warnings have been given and Harryawhite says he's quitting, not sure what else I need to do. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:12, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Draft:The People of the Willowhouse concern[edit]

Hi there, I'm HasteurBot. I just wanted to let you know that Draft:The People of the Willowhouse, a page you created, has not been edited in 5 months. The Articles for Creation space is not an indefinite storage location for content that is not appropriate for articlespace.

If your submission is not edited soon, it could be nominated for deletion. If you would like to attempt to save it, you will need to improve it.

You may request Userfication of the content if it meets requirements.

If the deletion has already occured, instructions on how you may be able to retrieve it are available at WP:REFUND/G13.

Thank you for your attention. HasteurBot (talk) 23:17, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply] 

    I wish to recover my draft for "The People of the Willowhouse," if possible. Thanks,Harryawhite (talk) 22:51, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Draft:James Rosemeyre concern[edit]

Hi there, I'm HasteurBot. I just wanted to let you know that Draft:James Rosemeyre, a page you created, has not been edited in 5 months. The Articles for Creation space is not an indefinite storage location for content that is not appropriate for articlespace.

If your submission is not edited soon, it could be nominated for deletion. If you would like to attempt to save it, you will need to improve it.

You may request Userfication of the content if it meets requirements.

If the deletion has already occured, instructions on how you may be able to retrieve it are available at WP:REFUND/G13.

Thank you for your attention. HasteurBot (talk) 01:22, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your draft article, Draft:James Rosemeyre[edit]

Hello, Harryawhite. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "James Rosemeyre".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been nominated for deletion. If you plan on working on it further, or editing it to address the issues raised if it was declined, simply edit the submission and remove the {{db-afc}}, {{db-draft}}, or {{db-g13}} code.

If your submission has already been deleted by the time you get there, and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia! Bkissin (talk) 20:19, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Draft:The People of the Willowhouse concern[edit]

Hi there, I'm HasteurBot. I just wanted to let you know that Draft:The People of the Willowhouse, a page you created, has not been edited in 5 months. The Articles for Creation space is not an indefinite storage location for content that is not appropriate for articlespace.

If your submission is not edited soon, it could be nominated for deletion. If you would like to attempt to save it, you will need to improve it.

You may request Userfication of the content if it meets requirements.

If the deletion has already occured, instructions on how you may be able to retrieve it are available at WP:REFUND/G13.

Thank you for your attention. HasteurBot (talk) 01:22, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your draft article, Draft:The People of the Willowhouse[edit]

Hello, Harryawhite. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "The People of the Willowhouse".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been nominated for deletion. If you plan on working on it further, or editing it to address the issues raised if it was declined, simply edit the submission and remove the {{db-afc}}, {{db-draft}}, or {{db-g13}} code.

If your submission has already been deleted by the time you get there, and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia! Lapablo (talk) 12:22, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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