Talk:Zdravko Čolić/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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Notoriety?

"he has garnered notoriety" I don't think the author understood what the word notoriety means. This should be changed into "fame" or a similar word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:45B:C300:9C26:AF7A:8DC5:9665 (talk) 21:50, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Nationality

2006 discussions

I agree with User:Evlekis that "ethnicity should be kept at arms length if discussing music or art", but if we don't state his nationality, somebody will edit the article and add it. So, it's better we put it right away, I think. --Dijxtra 13:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

For God's sake, if there are a lot of people who feel strongly that his nationality should be mentioned, than it should be mentioned. It's realy tautological.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ketzman (talk • contribs)

They want to make a croat out of Nikola Tesla. They don't want it to be mentioned that Colic is Serbian. There is not a single Wikipeida biography where nationality is not mentioned. This is anti-serb racism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.150.90.252 (talk • contribs)

What is racism? The article says he is Serb. Is that racism? --Dijxtra 21:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

2015 discussions

He resides in Serbia, has lived in Serbia since the dissolution of Yugoslavia, has had Serbian citizenship ever since, and has been recording for Serbian records. "Bosnian" refers either to ethnic Bosniaks (Muslims of Yugoslavia), or citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and he is neither. He is of Bosnian Serb origin, but had left Bosnia and had moved to Serbia during Bosnian civil war, only after which Bosnia became a country. He is a Serbian singer of Bosnian Serb origin.109.92.238.226 (talk) 18:06, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Nationality and ethnicity are biographical data meant to be found in encyclopedias. Especially in case of multicultural countries and/or countries broken apart. I want to know what country an ex-Yugoslavian celebrity currently lives in, and their ethnicity (if known), because ethnic disputes torn Yugoslavia apart.109.92.238.226 (talk) 18:12, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Not a Serb. "Yugoslav" is probably most fair, even if the country does not exist any more.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.13.6 (talk • contribs)

2016 discussions

  • There is an ongoing edit-war on whether he is a Bosnian, Serbian, or Bosnian-Serbian. I think Bosnian-Serbian is the safest and most neutral way to put it. Please discuss your views here so we can reach concensus.--Zoupan 11:10, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
Another important fact is that Čolić does not live in Bosnia since the war, which points to that he does not hold Bosnian nationality.--Zoupan 17:42, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Before this blows up into another edit war, let's discuss everything here. I really don't want to use that AN3 report that I've prepared. Pinging @Zoupan, Bihseth, 89.146.154.49, 93.87.123.150, 37.203.108.43, and 37.203.125.167:.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dschslava (talk • contribs)

People keep putting him as Serbian only because he lives in Serbia. There is a valid source from an interview posted on his citizenship, where Čolić explicitly says he's Bosnian. If you think he doesn't hold Bosnian citizenship, find a reliable source that says so. If you think he holds a Serbian citizenship, find a reliable source where it says so. If a person lives in a country for so long, that doesn't mean he's a citizen of the country. Look at British/Aussie actors in Hollywood like Sean Connery (Scottish), Hugh Jackman (Australian), Russell Crowe (New Zealander), Gerard Butler (Scotish) ... Bihseth (talk) 08:57, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
As he lives in Serbia since the wars, he holds Serbian citizenship rather than Bosnian. He and his whole family lives in Belgrade and not Sarajevo. Hence the compromise Bosnian–Serbian. No source speaks of his citizenship, but his identity: "ali do dana današnjeg se nisam prestao osjećati Sarajlijom". As included in the annotation, media describe him as both a Bosnian and Serbian artist.--Zoupan 11:08, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Christopher Deliso (2009). Culture and Customs of Serbia and Montenegro. Greenwood Press. ISBN 978-0-313-34436-7. Among them, arguably the most beloved is the Bosnian-born Zdravko Colic (b. 1951). The fifty-seven-year-old singer, who started out as a balladeer in the early 1970s, could perhaps best be described as Serbia's version of Tom Jones.
  • Ian Peddie (2011). Popular Music and Human Rights. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. pp. 1–. ISBN 978-1-4094-3758-1. Meanwhile, big Serbian (or former Bosnian) stars like Ceca, Zdravko Colic,

So... Bosnian–Serbian is the most accurate way to put it.--Zoupan 11:08, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Only Bosnian-Serb is and will be accepted. Term "Bosnian" is used for Muslim people in Bosnia. He is orthodox Serb from Bosnia,lives in Serbia has Serbian residency. How can he be "Bosnian"? Nikola Šakan (talk) 19:46, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

You are confusing terms "Bosniak" with "Bosnian". Bosnians are people who live in Bosnia and Herzegovina, regardless of their religion. Some Bosnian Muslims declare themselves as Bosniaks (not all, not by a long shot), while some people who are Muslim, catholic, orthodox christian, Jewish etc. declare themselves, not as Bosniaks, Bosnian Croats or Bosnian Serbs, but as just Bosnian. Zdravko is one of them. He has clearly stated that himself in multiple TV and newspaper interviews (one of them is sourced in the article, and is repeatedly being deleted without a reason). Bihseth (talk) 22:58, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
Please disregard Nikola Šakan's comment. The annotation is perfectly clear in describing his nationality. The IP removes the annotation, thereby removing the clarification on the matter. "Bosnian and Serbian" or "Bosnian-Serbian" is the best compromise. Read the annotation. Stop edit-warring.--Zoupan 23:52, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
Were you referring to me in that edit-warring reference? I gave up on this article quite a few months ago, since it is clearly biased and admins obviously do not care about its accuracy. This will be my last visit to this article ever. Bihseth (talk) 17:14, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

November 2019 – discussion

User:Obsuser I don't understand your objection to my revision. It does not state Čolić is Bosnian, other than to reference his statements to that effect, which your revision also contains. Stating he is "Yugoslav" is inaccurate, as that nationality objectively no longer exists. Stating he is "former Yugoslav" is clumsy and redundant, as that already follows from his place of birth, life and current residence. If you have references of him claiming to be Serbian, please do include those; I will not revert them. I couldn't find any. Srexfax (talk) 17:17, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

It does state that he is Bosnian and he is not anymore (except by birth place, and we have Bosnian-born singer, which not even close to Bosnian singer). He is Yugoslav; when he dies, article will have in the lede "... was Bosnian-born Yugoslav-Serbian" (per two nationalities he chose and retained). Yugoslav nationality does exist as former nationality; it is not clumsy and redundant, it is objective per se; we do not want to implicate anything, same follows for every other person and is yet given explicitly in the lede after "is" and before occupation. I do not need them at all because he has Serbian passport and lives there for almost three decades; yesterday was guest on Serbian national TV RTS. --Obsuser (talk) 17:22, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Also, please read article nationality; there is acquired nationality by birth place and chosen nationality by passport adherence (for first one we use "is Xcountryn-born[ + second, more important nationality] + occupation" and for second "is Xstaten + occupation"; eg. Bosnian-born Serbian singer). --Obsuser (talk) 17:42, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Again, my revision does NOT say he is Bosnian, just Bosnian-born: "Zdravko Čolić ( Serbian Cyrillic: Здравко Чолић, pronounced [zdrǎːv̞kɔ̝ t͡ʃɔ̝̌ːlit͡ɕ]; born 30 May 1951) is a Bosnian-born pop singer, now living in Serbia." All facts.Srexfax (talk) 17:46, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Obsuser You are being completely unreasonable. I have addressed all your concerns in the latest revision. Please revert immediately; otherwise, you will be reported. Your bullying and vandalism shall not pass. Srexfax (talk) 18:18, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
We do not need lies here: diff. Feel free to report, I like my truth more than being blocked from groups of biased editors (and usually such admins are found easily, and those not biased do not want to react for some reason and remove block). --Obsuser (talk) 18:19, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Again, completely unreasonable. My latest version says "Yugoslav singer" in short description, not "Bosnian", and says so explicitly in the comments. Let's see who gets blocked. You have been before.Srexfax (talk) 18:23, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
That "again" is funny, as well as the repeated lie because you entered first time or several times before Bosnian (latest example asof 2019-11-14 19-46-00). Only unreasonable thing here is claiming him by his birth place/country and not by official recognition i.e. state i.e. citizenship, and also it is unreasonable to delete note improvements, add old funny section title annotations, remove valid reference for Herzegovina origin etc.
I will be blocked again, whatsoever over and over and over again. Happy? --Obsuser (talk) 18:47, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Also, you made first edit 03:58, 9 November 2019 and then several other edits just to came here as somewhat established and fight for his Bosnian origin, after I requested and got page protection (I will ask for it again if these statehood-national-ethicity based vandalisms continue furthermore). I made first edit 21:26, 30 December 2014 and I really do not have any goal except true consistent statements on Wikipedia. --Obsuser (talk) 18:53, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Dude, my latest version accepts your own wording as Bosnian-born Yugoslav singer, now living in Serbia. I don't think you even know what you're complaining about any more. You are insane with nationalism, it seems (or maybe just plain insane? who cares.), and give all Serbs a bad name.Srexfax (talk) 20:40, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Oh and yes, I will keep reverting. You will never be able to rest easy for the rest of your life :)))) . Srexfax (talk) 20:49, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
I am talking about your first contrib after which you stated you do not add Bosnian singer and you did. I know exactly, it is your removal od refs that describe him as former Bosnian and (current) Serbian singer that I complain to, as well rewording note back to prev bad state, removing other filled ref and used for Herzegovina statement, etc. I am insane with consistency; if it includes national, who cares; "plain" insanity does not exist, only deviation from normal (what is normal btw). "Giving Serbs bad name" is a serious allegation; do not repeat it.
Feel free to revert if it is your choice, until block or arb com decision what will stay in the lede. --Obsuser (talk) 20:53, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
I don't need Ian Peddie, a foreigner, to tell me what nationality Zdravko Čolić is... and, anyway in that quote he refers to CECA as Serbian, and Čola just as Bosnian-born. I provide Čola's own quotes on the subject, which you can't. That says it all. And I have to say you "give Serbs a bad name", because that implies they are not all crazy, rabid nationalists like yourself... I choose to believe the better of them, rather than the worse. Over and out. Srexfax (talk) 21:25, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Sorry but Wikipedia needs Peddie to tell what nationality Čola is and Wikipedia does need you or me or any editor to tell what nationality Čola is. You did not provide anything, just vandalized note and lede and Herzegovina ref. Do not make personal insults further, you will be blocked from editing. Keep on topic if want ongoing discussion (I praise that). --Obsuser (talk) 21:42, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Ian Peddie (2011). Popular Music and Human Rights. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. pp. 1–. ISBN 978-1-4094-3758-1. Meanwhile, big Serbian (or former Bosnian) stars like Ceca, Zdravko Colic, is used in the Note in the 00:07, 22 November 2019‎ revision to claim Čolić has been described in literature as a Serbian singer ("Thus, he has recently been described as a Bosnian-born (or former Bosnian[15]) Serbian singer.[15][3]"). However, in the exact quote, Ceca is referred to as a Serbian singer, while Čolić is claimed to be "former Bosnian", without asserting his Serbian nationality. Thus, using the Peddie reference in this sense is not fair or accurate.Srexfax (talk) 08:25, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Christopher Deliso (2009). Culture and Customs of Serbia and Montenegro. Greenwood Press. ISBN 978-0-313-34436-7. Among them, arguably the most beloved is the Bosnian-born Zdravko Colic (b. 1951). The fifty-seven-year-old singer, who started out as a balladeer in the early 1970s, could perhaps best be described as Serbia's version of Tom Jones. is used in the same 00:07, 22 November 2019‎ revision to the same end. However, it would not appear Deliso is stating Čolić's nationality as Serbian, as he is sure to mention he is "Bosnian-born"; rather, he is focused on Čolić's artistic attributes and more likely considers Serbia merely Čolić's current residence. As the reference does not provide a link to the actual source, it is not possible to get any more details from the context. So it seems hasty at best, biased at worst, to use this reference as evidence of Čolić being considered Serbian by impartial sources, especially with many quotes of Čolić himself expressing his Sarajevan and/or Bosnian identity (see ref #12 and ref #13 in the Annotation A of the 19:13, 22 November 2019 revision. Srexfax (talk) 08:25, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Please note that citations to books do not need a "link to the actual source", though they do need page numbers. See Wikipedia:Citing sources. Wikipedia editors find themselves buying books or going to libraries. Toddy1 (talk) 14:51, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Then remove adjective "Serbian" and leave that he is described recently only as Bosnian-born and not Serbian. Do not vandalize by reverting whole contributions that include improvement i.e. exacting of what he said in translation for vrisak ref, pp-vandalism template, removal of extra space in the lede bracket, countries names and locations in the note etc. --Obsuser (talk) 22:28, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Bosnian-born is not that important. My suggestion is that we free up the lead from any Bosnian/Born/Serbian/Yugoslav what have you. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 00:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree.  Done. --Obsuser (talk) 13:28, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Fine with me.Srexfax (talk) 18:18, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

@Obsuser: Why do you prefer [[SR Bosnia and Herzegovina|PR Bosnia and Herzegovina]] to [[SR Bosnia and Herzegovina]]? @Srexfax: Why do you have the opposite preference on this? Toddy1 (talk) 15:18, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

It is not what I "prefer" but what is correct. He could not be born in SR BiH because that entity started to exist in 1963 (it has been PR BiH 1946–1963). It is about official names of state's political subdivisions, see also 1963 Yugoslav Constitution. --Obsuser (talk) 13:28, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Three elements of the edit that one person wants to make and another person wants to revert

  • I cannot see why an editor deleted[1] {{pp-vandalism|small=yes}}. The page is partially protected, as per the template. Nobody has given an explanation for deleting it. So I tend to favour it staying. Toddy1 (talk) 15:13, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
There might be a case for changing the template to {{pp-vandalism}}. Having |small=yes means that there is only a padlock icon in the top-right corner of the page. Having an obtrusive header would be helpful to IP editors who do not have an account - though I am fairly sure that all the IP editors concerned do have accounts. Toddy1 (talk) 16:30, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I cannot see why an editor removed the Wikilink from Serbia in the infobox.[2] Nobody has given an explanation for unlinking it. So I tend to favour it staying. Toddy1 (talk) 15:13, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I cannot see why an editor keeps restoring[3] the space after the bracket in: ( {{lang-sr-cyr|Здравко Чолић}},. There should be no space after the bracket, and nobody has given an explanation for wanting this space. Toddy1 (talk) 15:13, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Thank you really for this review. There are even more than three elements but you chose these. --Obsuser (talk) 13:28, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

The vrisak citation

The two versions are:

  • Srexfax version <ref>{{Cite web|url=http://www.vrisak.info/intervju/zdravko-colic-razvijao-sam-glas-pjevajuci-gangu-u-rodnoj-hercegovini/|title=Ja sam Sarajlija i Bosanac gdje god bio i to će tako biti cijeli život.|last=|first=|date=|website=|url-status=live|archive-url=|archive-date=|access-date=}}</ref>
    which produces:
    "Ja sam Sarajlija i Bosanac gdje god bio i to će tako biti cijeli život".{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
  • Obsuser version <ref name=vrisak>{{Cite web|url=http://www.vrisak.info/intervju/zdravko-colic-razvijao-sam-glas-pjevajuci-gangu-u-rodnoj-hercegovini/|title=Zdravko Čolić: Razvijao sam glas pjevajući gangu u rodnoj Hercegovini|last=|first=|date=2018-10-14|website=vrisak.info|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20191107003719/http://www.vrisak.info/intervju/zdravko-colic-razvijao-sam-glas-pjevajuci-gangu-u-rodnoj-hercegovini/|archive-date=2019-11-07|access-date=2019-11-07|language=hr|quote=Ja sam Sarajlija i Bosanac gdje god bio i to će tako biti cijeli život.}}</ref>
    which produces:
    "Zdravko Čolić: Razvijao sam glas pjevajući gangu u rodnoj Hercegovini". vrisak.info (in Croatian). 2018-10-14. Archived from the original on 2019-11-07. Retrieved 2019-11-07. Ja sam Sarajlija i Bosanac gdje god bio i to će tako biti cijeli život.

I do not understand what Srexfax's objection is to the <ref name=vrisak> feature that Obsuser prefers.

@Toddy1: The Note now reads: '...and that he is "a Sarajevan and a Bosnian" wherever he would be and "that will be like that for whole [his] life."[8]' This is a literal, and very bad, translation from Serbo-Croatian original: "Ja sam Sarajlija i Bosanac gdje god bio i to će tako biti cijeli život." It should be replaced with '... and that he is "a Sarajevan and Bosnian" wherever he is and "that will never change" or '... and that he is "a Sarajevan and Bosnian" wherever he should be and "that will never change" or '... and that he is "a Sarajevan and Bosnian" wherever he is (should be) and "that's the way it will be the rest of" his life.' All of these mean the exact same thing. That is the exact point of my objection here. I have no problem with the title of citation ("Zdravko Čolić: Razvijao sam glas pjevajući gangu u rodnoj Hercegovini")... that can stay as is.Srexfax (talk) 17:58, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

I do not understand Srexfax's objection to using an archive URL. Toddy1 (talk) 17:16, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

One rather obvious point is that the standard is to have the title of the magazine article in the title field of the citation template, and this is:Zdravko Čolić: Razvijao sam glas pjevajući gangu u rodnoj Hercegovini. The Obsuser version has the template filled in correctly, and the other version does not. It would be helpful to use the trans-title field for a translation of the title of the magazine article into English. Please could one of you add this. Toddy1 (talk) 17:23, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for this review too. I added trans-title. And it is not only about citation format but correct translation of the note text itself (that precedes the citation i.e. for which citation is used as supporting reference). --Obsuser (talk) 13:28, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Is "ganga" a type of music? If yes, is there an article you could wikilink to? Toddy1 (talk) 13:57, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Ganga (music). --5.43.80.176 (talk) 18:25, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

@Toddy1: The Note now reads: "Thus, he has recently been described as a Bosnian-born (or former Bosnian[15][page needed]) Serbian singer." This adds nothing to the article as far as facts go. We already know Čolić was born in Bosnia, spent a huge chunk of his life there, including all of his formative years, and that he now resides in Serbia. The reference was put in by pro-Serb editor(s) to give credence to the notion that Čolić is a Serb, rather than Bosnian. They do this because they cannot find a single quote of Čolić stating that he is a Serb. On the contrary, this same Note refers to one of his many quotes stating he feels like a Bosnian (or a Sarajevan). This sentence also conflicts with the lead into the article, which purposely avoids stating the singer's nationality. Therefore, it is best removed altogether. If you feel it absolutely must stay, then at least "thus" should be removed from its beginning for pure reasons of common sense. "Thus" implies the conclusion ("he is a former Bosnian, and now Serbian") is inferred from the preceding discussion in the same paragraph, which is totally false (in fact, the aforementioned quote of Čolić suggest the opposite, that he will be a Bosnian for the rest of his life). Srexfax (talk) 18:15, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

As a first step, I suggest that you correct the translation in the article. Toddy1 (talk) 18:36, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Done. Srexfax (talk) 17:48, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
Not done, Srexfax's translation is obviously wrong. Differ would and should and have a correct translation just as he said, do not twist person's quote. --Obsuser (talk) 20:01, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
"Ja sam Sarajlija i Bosanac gdje god bio i to će tako biti cijeli život.":
  1. gdje god bio translates exactly as "wherever [I] would be" (bio is past tense from biti [to be] used in future context here, so it is correct to use verb 'will' in its correct form 'would' to denote this tense; verb 'shall'/'should' has completely different meaning (it denotes intention/wish of what should be like that and that and not state of knowing that something is i.e. will certainly be in the future like that).
  2. to će tako biti cijeli život ("that will be like that for whole [his] life") is not same as to se nikada neće promijeniti ("that will never change"; and you want to put "that will never change"). If you are not a native (I mean SCBM) speaker please do not introduce confusions here. --Obsuser (talk) 20:07, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
@Obsuser You are clearly not a native English speaker, and not a very good one either. But don't revert for such a petty reason without first trying to reach a consensus, unless you want to get yourself banned again. How about '... and that he is "a Sarajevan and Bosnian" wherever he is and "that's the way it will be the rest of" his life.'? Srexfax (talk) 20:20, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
I did not say that I am a native English speaker, I clearly said that those who are not a native SCBM speakers do not introduce wrong translations for English. I thing I am a good, near native English speaker.
You need consensus for wrong (and you cannot get it); I do not need a consensus for obvious wrong wording vandalism nor minor wrong verb usage revert. I do not have problem if I get "banned" (we on Wikipedia do not use that term, we use term blocked).
I agree with that proposal, it is simplified but with no rewording nor content change of what he actually said. --Obsuser (talk) 20:40, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
"... and that will never change" is not "wrong wording vandalism" (you have a knack for drama, don't you?); it's simply a free translation that really goes best here and is 10 times better than "...that will be like that for whole [his] life.", which no native speaker would be caught dead saying. As for "wherever he should be", I suggest you Google that in quotes, then google "wherever he would be", also in quotes, and take some time to observe the results returned. You may learn something.
I'm fine with the latest version, though, and glad we have reached an agreement. Have a nice day.Srexfax (talk) 21:57, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
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