Talk:Zambrano

Split proposal

Zambrana descendants of Fortún kept its last name as Zambrana with "a". There were others gentlemen that also came out of the same town porting the surname Zambrano with "o", thus Zambrana and Zambrano should be treated as separate surnames.

Zambrana and zambrano are the same family check the books in my wikis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Itzcoatzin/sandbox Look in the aarms.

I am looking for more info on the zambrano from italy and the one from the philippines.

74.118.32.5 (talk)

74.118.32.5 (talk) 00:07, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

asking for help

I have been using public library computers and cant use wikimedia friend help me out i am editing it the best i can. Anyone with html education please help oput in lay out all info is as per my sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Itzcoatzin (talk • contribs)

I have tried to make sense of this article but I'm afraid that it is just too confused and poorly conceived. It appears to be little more than a scattering of unrelated ideas (some not even in English) rather than even the beginnings of an article. There are bits about pre-historic man (clearly their name wasn't Zambrano!), and about various kingdoms that may or may not have had anything to do with the Zambrano family. Why not take some time to work this all out in your user space (say, at User:Itzcoatzin/Zambrano family), and see what you can make of it? WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 21:26, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Merge proposal

Now that this article has been cleaned up, it should be merged with the content at Zambrano]. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 18:57, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good..... but.... where's all of my stuff gone? You claimed that the only reliable source was the one you used. I'd have to disagree with you, and am rather dismayed that good content has now been removed from the article.--Coin945 (talk) 19:02, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

If there was "good content" with valid sources, please feel free to add it back. Any content that is sourced to commercial "heraldry" sites (such as 4crests.com) cannot be considered reliable. The information from ancestry.com might be somewhat more reliable, but I think the Diccionario source trumps them all, with quotes directly from the chroniclers of the period.WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 20:28, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Comments from Itzcoatzin

1. You remove all the important information.

Which important information?

Please note i have added more sources in reference and geneology. The Saenz, Sanz or Sanchez are those who are related to King Sancho of Spain. Those of Castile can be traced by the Castile emblem a castle with 3 castras on silver or red. On red Field with one or more stars. Sanchez de Toca have castile 1 silver star on red field.

Looking for Fortune Sanchez who died in 1088 according to a geneology source.

Ochoa Zambraos can a Ochoa Sanchez looking into the local sources.

2. Present kingdom of Spain is a mix of many kingdom, look in the Spanish flag. "see the little castle on the top left hand "

It is given that the kingdom of Spain resulted from a merger of many prior kingdoms. What does that have to do with the Zambrano name?

If you read the Current king of spain They show his heritage from Pelayo. Zambrano are noble man from Castile, Same blood line as the current king of spain.

Please see question 1.

3. Spanish sources are original works, many lock up in the vatican. Must be included.

If the sources are locked away in the Vatican, they are not likely to be publicly available, and therefore are not suitable sources.

I have requested information from the vatican 30USD per certified documents, Will post them as soon as they find them.

4. Alta California history look it up. "NOt many libraries have that book cost about 300 USD."

I have looked into Crosby's Gateway to California, and found (on page 216) the brief mention of one Manuel Nicolas Zambrano. The mention is brief, and does not verify your claim that he is "the first Zambrano in California".

A mission that only had few guards friers and lots of native american i dont think natives have a Zambrano surname.

5. Zambrano colonised America before the pilgrims in 1600. We were here in 1500.

Many explorers arrived in the New World before the Pilgrims. Not every one of them is worth mentioning. However, if a reliable source can be found indicating a notable role of a Zambrano prior to 1600, feel free to add that information. (The tripod.com page you used to cite this fact does not appear to be reliable.)

I have google books in reference. Vatican records are been reasearched.

6. The information is to show the regal, royal, kingship of Zambrano of old. And to show the first Zambrano on each country.

Your purpose was to show that. But without reliable sources, that information has been removed. The origins of the Zambrano line show the nobility of the origins. It is unlikely you will find reliable sources to trace the movement of the family throughout every country. In any case, Wikipedia is not a genealogy site. If your desire is to trace your genealogy, there are lots of places to do that.

Dude this is History, Zambrano history and their work as knigths of the crown. As guards and warriors and the battles they been part of.

Please see question one.

7. This is a work in progress.

All of Wikipedia is a work in progress. Anyone (including you) is free to update the page, provided Wikipedia guidelines for verifiability are followed.

8. Look in my page as per your advice i have been adding information. Ochoa Zambrao was not inherited in Granada his desendents were Casa de Caridad Zambrano in Banos de la ensina. The castillo de Lanos is the only castle in the valley mention in text.

I perceive that there may be a language problem here, as the phrase "inherited in Granada" has no meaning in English. I'm not sure what your point is about the Castillo de Lanos.

Castillo de lanos is in the valley that zambrano begin, The rulling noble lived in that castle. Landmark will get the prroof from vatican soon.

9. I have made sigils and provided links for them, please included them in your work. I also have given the location of the castle of the families involve in Zambrano history.

Coats of arms that you create yourself are considered original research. Unless you can find historical evidence that the picture you attempted to upload is the legitimate coat of arms of the Zambrano family (and I have found at least one other variant online, so authenticity is definitely in question), then your version of the coat of arms is not considered valid. As for the castles, again you'll have to provide reliable sources to indicate that these castles were built or owned by the Zambrano family.

Heraldaria.com, several google books, check references, and geneology.

10. I am looking for brask family castle , Reus or france or germany. Hans brask el castillo de alemania is a good source i am looking into.

Let us know how that works out.

Please look into my user page and let me know what information i can use. I hate to add my information to be deleted. The geneology section has the books with older references. The oldest is that Fortune Sanchez died in 1088. During the beggeing of the Reconquista.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Itzcoatzin (talk • contribs) 19:20, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I have responded to each point above in italics. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 20:28, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Ok check my user page i have listed several google books, one with sigil references, along with heraldaria.com. One historical correspondance stating my fathers castle from a Zambrano princes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Itzcoatzin (talk • contribs) 19:37, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

What Itzcoatzin (talk · contribs) has done is to collect a large number of references to the name Zambrano throughout a large and disparate collection of sources. That's step 1 of research. Now, what is needed is the rest of the steps, that verify that these different Zambranos are in any way historically significant, and if they are in any way related. Until that part is complete, all we have is a bunch of books. The "heraldaria" website appears no more reliable than the "house of names" or "4crests" sites that Coin945 (talk · contribs) had provided. These are all commercial sites attempting to sell "authentic" coats of arms, but with little sign that any real authentication is occurring. Interestingly, the heraldaria site shows two coats of arms for Zambrano, neither of which match Itzcoatzin's proposed arms. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 20:00, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

The code of arms that is seen in heraldaria are from Fuentes del Maestre two zambrano families, google books geneology reference.

Saenz,Sanz and Sanchez: Are families related to the King Sancho of Spain.

4 Sanchos in Castile history.

Sanchez shows the first code of arms with castile 1 star silver, red field.

Sanchez de Toca Show the Castile geneology on their crest.

Fortune Sanchez arms are shown in the Zambrana page of google books in geneology.

Ochoa Zambraos may be a Sanchez looking into it.

The second crest shown in heraldaria, are Mata from Sobredo tree. The calderon couldron. And the Nieto boar. Families that are part of the Zambrana de Villa lobos.

Please look in my userpage for links to google books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Itzcoatzin (talk • contribs) 22:27, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Closure

In light of the absence of any meaningful comments to the contrary, this article will be moved to Zambrano (surname). All editors are, of course, welcome to continue improving it. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:44, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry for all the headaches, here is my final work and investigation on this matter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Itzcoatzin Please advice if this is of your liking and what i need to edit. All Spanish works can be read by Google translate. PLease give me advice on my user page talk. If you want to add books please do so. But if you want to delete anything let me know first and why?

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 02:13, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Comments made at user's talk page.

Unreliable source, in turn misquoted

The abstracted information reads: "Fortún Sánchez, ricohombre y destacado guerrero a las órdenes del rey García Ramírez de Navarra. El hijo de éste, rey Sancho, le dio en el año 1058 los solares y divisas que el rey tenía en Zambrana, lugar de la provincias vasca de Araba, pasando por ello Fortún Sánchez a apellidarse Zambrana."

So, the original source would have him a nobleman of García Ramírez of Navarre (ruled 1134-1150), and his son king Sancho. The king must then have gone a century back in time to give land to Fortún Sánchez in 1058. So, to say the original source is confused (in other words, untrustworthy) is not a stretch. Our Wikipedia article, in citing this source, then switches to a different pair of kings, Sancho III of Navarre and his father García Sánchez II. Not only is this in direct contradiction to the cited source, but is equally wrong, as Sancho III had been planted in a tomb for a quarter century by the time he supposedly made the grant. Another source cited by Itzcoatzin decides Fortún Sánchez was a courtier of García II of Galicia, so that's three different kings, none of which are correct for the date of the grant. This isn't history, it is fiction, and something that someone made up doesn't merit detailed description in an article that is supposed to be historical. Agricolae (talk) 03:33, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Dude your crasy Castile Garcia Sanchez II ans Sancho the III. Where did you get that date ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Itzcoatzin (talk • contribs) 07:14, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Fortun(o)_Sanchez_(Sangiz)_Grandee_Zambrana

Read this i have notes on the books. Read carefully many fortun sanchez the 3rd you mention was not related to Grandee Zambrana. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Itzcoatzin (talk • contribs) 07:17, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

There are two fortun sanchez, one that ruled burgos as count. And did not have children. And the squire who became lord in 1028. And had children. I will find the book for you to read.

Here read this book be more carefull. Zambrana family history Its a google book you can run a search on fortun sanchez or zambrana surname.

I hope you understand the material if not get some help from professionals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Itzcoatzin (talk • contribs) 07:22, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 07:11, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The title grande zambrana was given in 1028. The Solares or house mark was stablished in 1058. If you go to zambrana got to the official webpage of Zambrana town. Not fictional by no means look at my wiki again and you will see historical records of the Zambrana.

Here read this ebook about zambrana historical records Zambrana were heros of the battle in baeza.

You can google map the location link in my wiki, or you can go to Baeza. The code of arms is in the arc that is shown in the picture of the fountain of leones. In the plaza del populo.

If you wish to make sure about this claim contact the Santiago order. They will tell you the true story.

Your the unreliable that cant read or check on a google search before you open your mouth.

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 09:51, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Jose, Sancho III is not some obscure king. He has been the focus of several biographies and his death in 1035 and the subsequent partition of his kingdom among his sons had a lasting effect on the political history of the peninsula. He made no grant in 1058.

You sent me to your provisional article on Fortun to prove that I am confused, and yet your article begins with the statement: "Fortune Sanchez or Sangiz became squire to his brother king García Sánchez II of Pamplona" for which you cite a text that reads "Dona Juliana Fortunez, Sra. muy principal en Castilla, e hija de Fortun Sanchez o Sangiz, que segun el relato de muchas escritaras del siglo XI, fue Ayo del Rey de Galicia Don Garcia, uno de los hijos de Don Fernando el Magno." It is absolutely clear that 1) it never says that Fortun Sánchez was squire of Garcia Sánchez II of Pamplona, and 2) it never says that Fortun Sánchez was brother of Garcia Sánchez II of Pamplona. It never even mentions Pamplona at all, and yet this is what you are using this citation to support.

And you send me to a book for "Zambrana historical records", but that book indicates that Fortun Sánchez was given a grant by king Sancho (son of King Garcia) in era 1096, in other words, 1058, not during the reign of Sancho III, but during the reign of Sancho IV. So, enough about me not being able to read, please, these are your citations, they are unreliable, and they are being used to support material they do not contain.

There is a bigger issue, though. These scribblings of 18th century story-tellers who cared more about a good tale and flattering their patrons than they did about reflecting historical reality are not considered reliable by modern scholars. Agricolae (talk) 13:37, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Again read more carefully there are 3 Fortun sanchez in same book.

1 Fortun Sanches noble man of castile from the castile. had no children. Was Count of Burgos. Lived Late 9th century to 10th century Here is a wiki so you understand and dont get confused and talk shit . I am not talking about this fortun Sanchez.

2 Fortun Sanchez Bastard son of the Jimena moarch, Squire two king Garcia, and given title by Sancho as Grandee Zambrana, Records are in Burgos. Same town two fortun sanchez. He died in 1088. Marry to Toda, Had children. Was a hero in Baeza named for their linage to Pelagious or Paez later Baez. Monument to the victory is there for you to see, my Family House mark. Google map it and see it. Not fictional, Real History great importance to Spain history.

3 Fortun Sanchez The one your quoting. Lived 100 years later.

Read the book more carefully. Key works, zambrana, fotun sanchez married to toda, had children. lord 1028, house mark 1058 and died 1088. The Fortun Sanchez are many all quoted in same book. Remember when you were in school the logic game match the name to the action. Mark from SPain dont like base ball. So he does not have a baseball bat. But the other mark from spain like soccer. So one has a baseball bat the other a soccer ball.

If you dont add information to the reasearch dont get in the way. I am sure there are many books in France, England, Portugal, south America. That i can be reading to add more information. I dont have time to explain the material to you.

Your welcome to reasearch books and add them, if you dont understand it, have someone smarter then you read it. I am not saying i am smarter then you, but here in wiki there are some that are. Talk to them.

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 17:34, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

his is the fortun Sanchez i am talking about and his family and were his tomb is. http://books.google.es/books?id=Qh5PAAAAcAAJ&hl=es&hl=es&pg=PA503&img=1&zoom=3&sig=ACfU3U0tqAcSko8xhRtHCSsssYZsPuAvdQ&ci=14%2C171%2C429%2C1240&edge=0 This is a page from a book in my references, that you did not read carefully.

Fotun Sanchez did not get his title from Garcia Sanchez, ill get the book that quotes him being hid brother. He got it from Sancho LIsted with many heros of the war. Book listed Fortn Sanchez getting his title in BUrgos in 1028 before Sancho died.

Your wasting my time read this page.

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 17:47, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Here is were its stated as his brother. And where you can see his real body. Not a fictional novel you like it to be. I am sure My family is real.

http://books.google.es/books?id=PBnBEWrXTYoC&hl=es&hl=es&pg=RA2-PA80-IA1&img=1&zoom=3&sig=ACfU3U3Ntj95HJwWVNhktub23zD_hnhJ9A&ci=37%2C506%2C463%2C651&edge=0 Garci Sangiz his death brother or anima or soul.

Dont get in my way, your welcome to add any reference material you can find.

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 17:56, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Jose, we need to clarify a few things here. First, I am reading your references. You can't then tell me they refer to the wrong man. They are YOUR references! If you say 'this reference says X', and I look at it and it doesn't say X, that is not my fault for not being smart enough, it is not because I don't understand logic, it is not because I am thinking of the wrong person, it is because you have given a reference that does not support what you say it does. Second, your references are of extremely poor quality. We are compiling this encyclopedia in 2012, not in 1790. There are different views of what constitutes reliable history now than there were then (in fact, there was no real concept of reliable history then). One can't build a modern reliable article based on material that is fundamentally unreliable. Third, your cited source, the one that you just provided as the evidence that Fortun was brother of King Garcia Sanchez II does not say he is brother of King Garcia Sanchez II. It says he had a brother named Garcia Sanchez, but does not say that this brother was any king, let alone that he was that specific king. To be brother of Garcia Sanchez II, he would have to have been born before 994, when Sancho II of Pamplona died. Your source says, explicitly, that Fortun died in 1088. People in medieval times did not live to 94. Fortun was not brother of king Garcia Sanchez II. Finally, you tell me not to get in your way. You clearly are passionate about your family history, and there is no question that your family is real, but its history appears to be a morass of confusion and myth that has no business being in an encyclopedia that strives toward verifiability. I don't think I should 'get out of your way', because you are adding non-notable material of dubious accuracy, based on unreliable sources that don't support the claims being made, and I don't think the encyclopedia will be the better for its inclusion. Agricolae (talk) 20:23, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Ok the Noblemen of Spain are all family, they are from Austuria, castile. here read about Sancho García of Castile. Look at the family tree. Using the flags crest as reference you can see. The Sanchez of Castile have silver castle with 1 silver star on red field. The Sanchez of Navarra have red and yellow stripes. Fortun sanchez is from the sanchez of castile. When one serves as page they do it at young age. And i am quoting a book that states servitude to both kings. I am not making stuff up. If you realy want to check my work call zambrana municipity they will tell you if its real or not. http://www.cuadrilladeanana.es/zambrana/ayun_contacto.php . All i stated are in books. He became lord in 1058 "typo sorry" and died in 1088.

The Zambrana family were the lords that change the islam spain to Christianity. To me thats important. And the monuments are historical landmarks in spain. Your personal opinion about it is irrelevant for the history is written. Those that wish to know more about how spain was form will like to know this. And those that are zambrana or zambrano will love to know this as well.

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 00:06, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

The noblemen of Spain are not all family, and they are not all from Asturias and Castile. There is no reason to suggest that Fortun Sanchez was anything but a Basque. As to the arms, all of them that you describe were invented much later. There is not a single coat of arms attested in all of Europe prior to the middle of the 12th century, that is another reason why the arms could not have been granted in the mid-11th century. I don't think the gold castle on red, for Castile, can be documented prior to Alfonso IX. Further, there were no 'Sanchez of Castile', per se. There was one count, Sancho. He had one son, Garcia Sanchez, who was murdered on the way to his wedding, leaving only sisters. There is no Sanchez family that traces their descent from him. Just to be clear, I am not necessarily accusing you of making stuff up. I am indicating that the sources you are citing 1) made stuff up, as did almost all 'historians' from their time period, for whom the goal was to tell a good story rather than accurately reflect historical reality; and 2) didn't say the things you are citing them to document - you still haven't produced a source that actually claims the man who died in 1088 was son of a man who died in 994. He wasn't, couldn't have been. It just didn't happen. As to how much people named Zambrano will want to see their family myth on Wikipedia, well, that is not really the relevant question that determines whether it belongs. For those who want to know about the reconquista, there are better places for them to learn about it than to read a page on the Zambrano family. Like, for example, Reconquista. No, it is not about my personal opinion, but it is about verifiability, reliable sources, and notability, and your material fails on all three counts. Agricolae (talk) 01:24, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Dude your so out of place i may have confuse the kings buthere you go. Kingdom of Castile i am quoting whats it read in wiki

""According to the chronicles of Alfonso III of Asturias; the first reference to the name "Castile" (Castilla) can be found in a document written during AD 800. The name reflects its origin as a march on the eastern frontier of the Kingdom of Asturias, protected by castles, towers or castra.

You do see the little golden castle rigth, Gold mean sol or solares, Silver means moon luna or noble man. Forun Sanchez is a page to the kingdom of his family. He is Castil silver moon. And when he became llord he got 8 Golden cross or 8 count start of a grandee and gold or sol. Read my entry in the Fuentes del maestre there is a zambrano that has the Castile gold or sol as his crest.

Why else would the zambrano be inherited into a kingdom or be part of one in Mula.

If your doing this to take the importance away from it, your not a scholar your racist. Zambrana are part of Spain as much as the Kenedy are to the USA.

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 03:27, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Dude (?), in the text that you provide above, where, anywhere in that sentence, does it say anything about a coat of arms? The county of Castile dates back to the kingdom of Asturias. The arms of Castile do not. No coat of arms in all of Europe predates the 12th century. As to the rest of it, I see you building a house of cards based on flawed assumptions about heraldry (that every charge has a specific meaning that can be read like words on a page - it just doesn't work that way, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar), and you are asking me a question that I can't even follow. I am doing this to make sure that the information that appears in Wikipedia is verifiable, based on reliable sources, and of sufficient notability to merit inclusion. You might want to reexamine your own motivations. (You also might want to look up what the word 'racist' means, as it is inapplicable to this circumstance.) Agricolae (talk) 04:16, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

www.heraldaria.com

Look it up, the code of arms con only be given by a king. None can have a castle unless you have castile blood. Think what you want but read the material a guy that makes aliving doing reasearch in code of arms. Zambrano has kept the flag same as zambrana to the last in veracruz. Look it up all zambranos code of arms have castile. And again read this book. http://books.google.es/books?id=BkDunC5th60C&pg=PA146&dq=zambrano+vasco&hl=es&sa=X&ei=7XvfT7DIJ6b22AXEj52oCA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=zambrano%20vasco&f=false.

did you read the book of the house mark on the arc of alcanzar currently arc of el populo en Jaen Baeza Spain.

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 05:05, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

The 'rules' of heraldry that you state, that arms could only be granted by a king and that a castle on your arms meant you were from Castile, were not rules at all, at least not in the early period of its development (which as your heraldaria site agrees with, took place in the 12th century). You send me to a book that agrees with my assessment that the family was Basque, and doesn't seem to be aware of any member prior to the 17th century. The points you seem to be trying to make are either not well founded, or completely opaque. This is going nowhere productive. Agricolae (talk) 13:26, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

OK the oldest monument is in Baeza where the Zambrana code of arms was place on the arc as great hero. Talk to the Tourism guides in Jaen. That is the oldest record of zambrana.

Then explain to me why the code of arms for zambrana was given in 1058. 11 century. And he is a sanchez. Look at their armas red field castile silver one star. And Zambrana as a sanchez red field castile two stars, and when he gain his grandee he added the golden cross.

With that in mind the zambrano have been adding to that same code somthing to make it their own. Cstillo de mula zambrana added waves of water. The one you saw in heraldaria.com is from the book i sent for you to read on fuente del maestre. Red castle 2 stars withe field blue border 8 golden cross. Same code of arms with different colors.

Blue stars are from the fonseca family, union red castle and flower means serve a french king. i read a book lost the link when some guy desided to delete my wiki.

The frias is a golden cross, but the zambrano all ready had it so they added the zambrano name to the code of arms.

The base code of arms is Fortun sanchez code of arms.

He is a castile sanchez or red field castile 1 star

And he is from the sanchez of Sancha one of the kings daugthers. Sanchas code of arms is red field castra gold.

See the patern, in seville the tomb of ponce de leon and zambrano. Family union by marriage states the same zambrana crest as zambrano. And the tomb has the house mark ponce de leon and zambrana. 1500.

Zambrana were soldiers crusaders castile family not royalty if it makes you happier. That remove islam and corrupt spanish off the map. And discover america. The pilgrams in the 1600s came to america looking for st. Agustin spanish fort, but landed north and founded james town virginia.

The zambrano family finance the clensing of florida, i have a book from charles V holy roman emperor that states how they march all over florida to the missisipi river. Zambrano family was funding this as well. Namely Rodrigo Zambrano and son Alonso Zambrano.

Read all the books in my reference they are free google ebooks and some you need to buy. As a scholar as you say you are you should have contacts with all this books in spain, or have someone check the books in spain.

I am not trying to change hitory my friend i want to show the world thw books people are forgetting they exist.

You can call me what ever you want but i am a Zambrano.

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 17:33, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure that your goal of showing the world the books people are forgetting exist is necessarily compatible with the mission of Wikipedia. That being said, you have asked some specific questions and made some specific claims, so: people say the coat of arms of Zambrano dates to 1058 because it is just so much more impressive to say that than to say it dates from 1300 or 1500. People are vain, and if they can make themselves feel more important than their neighbors by claiming an older arms, they probably will do it, in spite of historical reality. There is a long history in heraldry of inventing arms for people who lived to early too have them (see attributed arms). That is why when abstracting information from sources for a Wikipedia page, an editor must not only harvest the information, but assess the reliability of the source providing it. Any source claiming arms that predate the mid-1100s is inherently unreliable because that is the date of the earliest surviving evidence of coats of arms in Europe (based on actual evidence of coats of arms, in seals and one notable enamel, not based on claims by authors writing centuries later trying to glorify the family or town they are flattering).

You say that Fortun Sanchez was a Sanchez, but in the eleventh century, all that meant is that his father was named Sancho, one of the most popular names in the Basque region. It is like claiming that a viking was an Eriksson simply because his father's name is Erik - it is true, but valueless. Being a Sanchez implied no relationship to anyone else who was a Sanchez, as all it revealed was the name of their father. This patronymic naming system was followed strictly in Iberia for about another century and a half. Then it went through a period when the patronymics lost their meaning, but still hadn't crystallized as family names. With few exceptions, it was only in the 14th century that calling someone a Sanchez meant anything. It also changed every generation, so while you could say Fortun was a Sanchez, you could not say that of his sons, who were Fortunez, or his nephews who were Garces. It simply has no meaning at this period. As to your explanation of what the different parts of a shield mean, it is just not true. Most of this is what we would call a 'just so story', and they are part and parcel of heraldry. A similar story has been invented to explain how Henry II of England created the three-lion coat of arms used by his descendants by taking the two lions for Normandy and England, and adding to it a lion for Aquitaine. The problem is that there is no evidence Henry used any coat, and his sons used anywhere from one lion to six on their shields. The story became so pervasive that the Duchy of Normandy ended up adopting a two-lion coat to reflect this invented just-so story, that had no actual historical basis. The Jamestown settlers were not looking for St. Augustine - they knew they had to avoid it because the Spanish would run off any attempt to elbow in on their territory. They were following an earlier settlement at Roanoke. There may have been people named Zambrano who participated in de Soto's march to the Mississippi, but that doesn't make them notable for that reason, any more than the Ingraham family is notable simply because someone of that name happened to be on Kendrick's expedition to the Pacific Northwest. Your enthusiasm for your family history is evident, but the facts on which you are building your story are dubious, distorted, or of little relevance. Agricolae (talk) 21:00, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

O yea see the spanish digital library link in my wiki go to it and there is a geneology section, they state a book and page for all this information as historical records, contact someone in spain to double check your hypotesis.

Add this to your head, List of Roman legions. The use of crest is to control large armies. The castil of Asturias or west Austria, were from the 7th liegions of rome. Thats why there were holy roman Emperors Alaric I being one.

The use of emblem or suit of arms, or the flag use to mark a position such as a game of chess. the King would say legion bishop move there.

Then the legions became families and the current seal,emblem, suit of arms etc.

I have read a book that such emblem been in use since the Egyptians. The encyclopedia of flags from around the world.

As a scholar please think about all this before you delete my wiki. If your goign to delete it let me know so i can back up my reasearch and find other way to share my family history to the world, mainly the KIng of Spain.

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 18:03, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

We were talking about coats of arms, not regimental emblems or crests. Your own heraldry site agrees with me about the 12th century being the time when the system of European heraldry arose. More to the point, how does the fact that Roman legions used regimental standards in any way relate to the Zambrano family? I think we would both be best off to discontinue this discussion here, where it is far from relevant, so I am not going to respond further. Agricolae (talk) 21:00, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Los Zambranos I am sure the Zambrano are real this book is not a novel.

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:43, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Here is what i was talking about Castra Legiones, Legio VII Gemina. [List_of_Roman_legions] VII Gemina León, Spain 68 Galba c.400 75-c400 Castra Legionis* (HISP) Raised in Hispania by Galba for march on Rome

Castra became castile. They dont show emblem, will reasearch it.

Well thank you for your feed back i was quoting the wrong fortun. Fortun is Sanchez from the Mendoza y Haro Grandee Vizcaya. Updated reference.

Updated all info. For the record i was with the understanding you were deleting all the info and i was to start over. That why i was angry. The information i posted is ready to be revised. As far as i know all the books match with information.

Fortun Sanchez of Mendoza, Borther to Lope Sanchez, Marry to Toda, Grandee zambrana 1058, died in 1088. As per books.

He has a Navarre princes as relative direct lineage. Velasquita o blasquita. "I wonder if the term Basque is from her name?".

Thank you for your time. And again i was angry with the idea you were deleting my work as it was done under Zambrano surname.

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 07:45, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Fortun Sanchez De Mendoza First Zambrana, Zambrano came to be after family travel out off spain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_creation/Fortun(o)_Sanchez_(Sangiz)_Grandee_Zambrana

Fuente del maestre and Medina de Pomar are the Family that travel out of Spain.

I am working on quoting all the books i have founs the information is all 100% ACCURATE.

Now you can share it with Spain and Euskadi.

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 01:17, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

Endika de Mogrobejo continued the work and in Endika's volume 13 I found the article on the Zambranos. I attach it to this email.

The citation is: <http://lccn.loc.gov/95184192>.

You should read it and add information to the surname.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zambrana,_Zambrano,_Zambraos_Family_records.PDF

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 02:29, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

You should add that the Zambrano originated from the Lopez of viscaya

The Father lianage is the black wolf of visvaya. Sable=black. Reasearching Zuriain as a House mark in honor to Lope fortunes or Jaun Zuria. Recorded as father to Munso Lopez House mark Lopez.

The Mother linage is Castile Family from 800ad. Conde Sancho Lopez 5th lord of viscay,of Mendoza town. Married a second time to a Countess of castille.

74.118.32.5 (talk)

74.118.32.5 (talk) 20:32, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Lope Fortunez its shown in the Rodas codex and has a House mark Zuriain. Sable wolf sinople tree on gules field. Origin of the Lords of Viscaya. The Lord of Viscaya became vassal families and join the Navarra. Pamplona originated from castile. Zambrana comes from Lords of viscaya. Father being the 5th and his brother the 6th.

Look in the wikis in spanish for list of names orr look in my linage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Itzcoatzin/sandbox

74.118.32.5 (talk)

74.118.32.5 (talk) 00:11, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Zambrano Family influence in clonial America

Note the Zambrano family in Laredo tejas, guadalupe Nuevo Leon, Durango Mexico were rich nobleman that made the colonisation possible. Refer to my colonial tab in my wiki. Zambrano family move to sisters towns were they were rich noble man. Durango,Guadalupe,Medina,Laredo etc are sister towns in Spain were housemark zambrana(o) lived.

Cited many books from 1700 about zambrano family and the sister towns.

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 22:42, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Itzcoatzin/sandbox

Zambrana or zambrano not related to Zamorano

Many webpages have stated the wrong infromation about Zamorano being zambrano.

Zamora: or zamorano was given to a princess in 1067, in Leon when it was given its arms. Zambrana: or zambrano was given arms in 1058, in Burgos.

PLease state that in wiki.

http://www.mcu.es/archivos/Novedades/novedades_Pasajeros.html

This web page shows the zambrano that travel to America its a database.

My work on Zambrana or zambrano if you wish to read it. Anyone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Itzcoatzin/sandbox

74.118.32.5 (talk)

74.118.32.5 (talk) 23:36, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Zambrana Origin and founder Citizens are zambrano

Zambrana origin and Founder. Citizens of Zambrana are Zambrano. It shows the Arms as i have stated. Zanbrana written in basque.

Zanbrana meaning based on language basque.

Sanz (childrens off sancho) = Zan

Bra (Sobre/over or zoberein)= Bra

na Femalr form for Princes Urraca Sanchez Mother to Fortun Sanchez.

Zanbrana = Sancha soberana Zan Brana.

Look into Sobreabo Aragon.

Sobreabo in Basque is Zubriabe. Or Over the tree. I have a book with this speling but i cant find the book in ebooks.

http://books.google.com/books/reader?id=iGSkB8funS4C&printsec=frontcover&output=reader

Page 1195 in digital book page.

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 23:33, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Zambrano arms as were awarded by the kings of Spain. true origin of surname.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Itzcoatzin/sandbox

House mark or Blasones are listed with in the linage as well as the places they settle. DNA section will show Zambrano y chromasome Origins. Palaces of the Family and they service to the crown.

3 branches have been identified Basque, Berber and Chechen.

Any ZAmbrana or zambrano that does not like this wiki go to my :0

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 21:31, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Navarra Heraldic record old book

http://diegomallen.blogspot.com/2011/01/usurpacion-de-armas-de-don-pedro-de.html

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 20:23, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the last update

You can argue all you want but your ignorant about the subject i have given you a book with the list of towns in Las Viazcayas.

The translation can be checked in google tranlates if you wish. "Cima escarpada" or "steep summit". Cima you can check your thesarus. Apex, Zenith, Mountain top or highest. Escargada. Enpinada, danguerous , steep.

Your not supost to like me but you cant ignore books and inforation.

Zambrana comes from the Basque Cembrana. Meaning; Spanish:"cima escarpago", English "Steep Summit". Zambrano means "Man from steep summit". Another word for sima es Sobre or avobe.

Basque: Cembrana. Zambrana: Castellano/ Aragon. Canbrana: Portuguesse.

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 23:25, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I have moved this discussion to the bottom of the talk page to keep it in proper chronological order.

Now, it is true, I do not have a great deal of knowledge of the etymology of Spanish surnames. But I do know that, based on a single line in an 80 year old text that reads:

Zambrana: "Cima del escarpado"

we cannot extrapolate that to say:

Zambrana comes from the Basque Cembrana. Meaning; Spanish:"cima escarpago", English "Steep Summit". Zambrano means "Man from steep summit". Another word for sima es Sobre or avobe. Basque: Cembrana. Zambrana: Castellano/ Aragon. Canbrana: Portuguesse.

The problem here is that you have taken one very cryptic line from a text and extrapolated it to say much more. At Wikipedia, we call this synthesis: the interpretation of sources to say much more than they actually do. It is a form of original research, which is disallowed at Wikipedia. The name Zambrana may well derive from the etymology you have proposed, but you'll need a much better source than you have provided to say so. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:32, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

References

Zabrana municipality with coat of arms and zambrana town stating they use Fortun Sanchez Zambrana coat of arms.

http://www.ayuntamientodezambrana.com/index.php/es/conoce-zambrana/zambrana/pueblos/pueblo-de-zambrana

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 00:49, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

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