Talk:Washington Irving/Archive 1

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It should be mentioned that Irving s why we say that Columbus believed the Earth was flat, even at a time when the church believed otherwise user:avocado42o

Should this page perhaps mention his appearance throughout Heller's novel Catch-22?

Should this page mention that he was born in New York City? Kstailey 00:25, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yes. —Paul A 03:48, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I think it's wort--69.94.183.96 (talk) 20:06, 4 November 2010 (UTC)--69.94.183.96 (talk) 20:06, 4 November 2010 (UTC)h mentioning that he invented the character Santa Claus, as well as a fictional Dutch history for him, as well as nicknaming New York City "Gotham" after the tale of the British town Gotham where the inhabitants faked insanity to escape taxes (both of these references can be found in the book Gotham: A History of New York City to 1898) ba 23:32, 12 September 2005 (U sites that you can get a good idea/description of art that connects to 'The Devil and Tom Walker by Washington Irving?...any and all help would be GREATLY apppreciated!..thank you...email me links at: creamycheese43@aol.com again...thanks in advance

Is this true?

"6. Medieval people thought the world was flat

No, they didn’t. This was made up more or less out of thin air by Washington Irving in his horrid biography of Christopher Columbus. I haven’t the faintest idea why this has become so widespread, since there is ample evidence going against it, but unfortunately it’s still taught."

reference [[1]]

Gioto

The following is stated in Flat Earth Society#Origins of the flat Earth movement: "The myth that Christopher Columbus finally convinced Europeans that the earth is round by his voyage to America is a fiction invented by the writer Washington Irving and has absolutely no basis in fact, given that Columbus never circumnavigated the globe." If someone can verify, this seems worth mentioning in this article as well - MarkBrooks 23:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

In Flat earth the myth is said to have originated with the publication of The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus in 1828 - MarkBrooks 23:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

Whoever rewrote my paragraph on Irving as the originator of the flat earth myth has wonderful prose! Bravo! 72.170.116.20 (talk) 21:05, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Headline text

this is very good but you have to make it more exiting and u have to ot make soooooo much hard work kelly ojill mass. 12:45 am —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.248.141.212 (talk) 21:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

Manager of the Globe?

I don't think so -- I would be interested in seeing the citation for this. While Irving befriended countless actors in London, and was an avid theatergoer, there is no evidence he ever managed the Globe. Late in life he was made a co-manager of Astor's Opera House (very much against his will, he said) but that's the extent of it. Federalistpapers 04:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Pen Names?

I've found that many articles corresponding to the literary works of Washington Irving of articles reference him by the way of some of his pennames (ie. the books and names referenced in this article) which, in the context of the article of the book, is linked in red. Should these red links simply redirect to this page, or just be unlinkafied altogether? Justin 20:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Dietrich Knickerbocker is a redirect here - though the article says he used Diedrich. Is there much chance of anyone looking for a pen-name ? Modern reprints use his real name don't they ? -- Beardo 17:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

birthplace inconsistency

Under the picture:Seneca, NY. In text: Manhattan.

138.88.143.77 16:00, 14 July 2007 (UTC)halernjb

Page Revisions

I have recently finished a dissertation dealing in part with Washington Irving. While i am on the subject, i plan to make a few changes to clarify and fine tune this page. Feel free to offer comments here or through email: mstevensx at gmail dot com. Bully rook 21:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

death?

There's no coverage of Irving's death and the circumstances. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robcat2075 (talk • contribs) 01:24, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Noted, and we've added a new section on his final years and death.--Federalistpapers (talk) 17:33, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Legacy

There should probably be some additions to the Legacy section, including (as mentioned above) his contributions to Christmas culture (which is covered somewhat on the Sketch Book page), and perhaps some commentary on his reputation during and after his lifetime. Perhaps a subsction on Irving's work on film might also be relevant? Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Federalistpapers (talk • contribs) 12:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I agree with everything but the film stuff. I think, for example, Tim Burton's bastardized Sleepy Hollow could go on the article for the story, but doesn't need mentioning on Irving's on page. The Edgar Allan Poe page has a good discussion of his reputation and legacy, if I do say so myself. Any other thoughts on this? --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

As an addendum, I think we could stand to cut down the list of stuff named after Irving. I think we get the point. --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:39, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, the Sleepy Hollow film should go under the listing for TSB. I'll make a start at some additions for legacy for us to take a mutual chop at (and yes, I also agree on reducing some of the information on buildings/places named after Irving. Irving place and Irvington should probably stay, but the rest can go). The Poe article is terrific, BTW. And thanks for the cleanups and additions to this article. Nice work. (We may be ready to submit for GA status in a bit of time...) --Federalistpapers (talk) 14:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

George Washington

This piece never mentioned that Irving was named for George Washington. This article should probably reflect that -- and I have modified the lede to do so.--Federalistpapers (talk) 15:43, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't there also a story that the two met when Irving was like 5 years old? --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:00, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Indeed there is, one of the most famous of Irving's life legends -- there's even a small watercolor of it in his bedroom at Sunnyside. I can add that to the childhood section, then I'll probably take a breather and let you decorate some of the Christmas tree I've tried to set up with each section (your Poe page is staggering in its depth, so I'm hoping that by back-and-forthing on the Irving entry, we'll eventually have an entry as nice as your Poe article.)--Federalistpapers (talk) 16:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan - I'll definitely do what I can. --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Pictures

This piece is a bit long on text, and likely needs some pics to break things up.--Federalistpapers (talk) 19:40, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not as worried about images as I am about his list of works at the bottom, as well as the list of writings with their associated pen names. I'm sure these two weak sections could be combined to one, and then checked to ensure completeness (or, possibly, this could merit a forked article, such as Bibliography of Edgar Allan Poe, etc). --Midnightdreary (talk) 20:04, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Irving's output is nowhere nearly as long as Poe's, and may not require such a thorough piece, though we could argue for a forked article if we broke out every single short story Irving's written, which is certainly possible (especially in the format used on the Poe bibliography page). I'm actually not convinced they need to be broken out by pen name as it is, as we've done a fairly good job explaining that in the body of the piece. I do agree we can probably do a nicer job with the listing of his works, and perhaps come up with a more creative way of incorporating a biblio.--Federalistpapers (talk) 13:50, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Improvements needed

The progress on this article has been phenomenal! I'm really glad to see it becoming worthwhile considering how bad it was previously. But, here's where I think we stand as this article moves forward (besides a thorough copy-edit). We could consider adding a section discussing "Writing", as in Irving's writing style. I've seen similar requests for other writer articles I've worked on. We also definitely need more sources - not just footnotes, but more representation from other printed materials to further establish verifiability. I'll see if I can hit the library for some of the older Irving bios but I'm sure there are also some scholarly essays we can incorporate if anyone can get their hands on some. Any other ideas? --Midnightdreary (talk) 02:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I added a few places where I think reviewers would be looking for footnotes. I'll try to fill in a few of them with Burstein's book. I still think some references to another biography interspersed throughout would be helpful, too. --Midnightdreary (talk) 19:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I've filled in a few spots with some alternate sources as well, and will keep on plugging.--Federalistpapers (talk) 16:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll start on a "Writing" section here shortly to at least get a placeholder in. --Federalistpapers (talk) 18:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I've started up the Peer Review for this article. Add Wikipedia:Peer review/Washington Irving/archive1 to your watchlists if you're interested in helping out and responding to concerns! --Midnightdreary (talk) 22:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Washington Irving and his literary friends at Sunnyside

Dunno what it looked like before, but this is indeed a very good article. Actually, it is better than the one on Hawthorne, which is officially "good" but lacks a decent evaluation of the works and legacy. Anyways, by age fourteen, he was regularly sneaking out of class in the evenings to attend the theater.: this is dismissed as legend by Wagenknecht (1963), who writes that Irving himself says he first went to the theater in 1796, when James K. Paulding took him openly, and his father seems to have made no objection. --Janneman (talk) 20:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC) Also, I uploaded the "Sunnyside portrait" at commons, you might want to include it. --Janneman (talk) 20:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry you don't like my article on Hawthorne. Do you have a link to the image you uploaded? If it's on Commons, feel free to add it to the Washington Irving category. Not sure where my collaborator is on this article right now (he's a busy fellow) but I'm sure we'll put it up for good article review soon. Any other problems you see, feel free to help out! --Midnightdreary (talk) 00:49, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not that I don't like your article on Hawthorne, what's there is fine (or "good" as in GA, possibly even excellent as in FA), it's just that what makes Hawthorne important is not his biography, but his works. As is the case with most, if not all writers. I mean, that's ignoring everything that happened in literary theory & criticism since ca. 1900, when literary scholarship was limited to biography (& philology). Anyways, I'm pretty busy myself at the German Wikipedia (trying to get Rip Van Winkle to GA status), where I'm about the only one writing about American literature, but I'll keep an eye on this one here. I'll get the Williams biography, maybe I even get to read it someday...--Janneman (talk) 12:22, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for uploading that particular picture; we were discussing it at some point earlier in our development of the article, so it's definitely needed!! As for Hawthorne, it's only GA, not FA, so it still has room to grow. If you ever need help on any of the 19th century American literature articles you're working on, let me know; it's sort of my focus here. --Midnightdreary (talk) 08:29, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, I do think you're right, and I'm going to go ahead and put this up for GA review, with this edit. --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:53, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Btw, did you know this poem? --Janneman (talk) 22:25, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Memorial Catch-22

Is the reference to the Catch-22 subplot/theme relevant in the "Memorial" section here? It's neither a "memorial" nor really even an "honor". --96.233.82.46 (talk) 09:12, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Birthday

The headnote says April 3 but the body of article says November 3. I think it is April. Please fix this blatantly obvious mistake. 153.91.46.140 (talk) 18:21, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and fixed this - thank you for noticing. It looks like it wasn't a "blatantly obvious mistake" but a successful attempt at vandalism that went unnoticed. In the future, remember that you too can edit Wikipedia! --Midnightdreary (talk) 05:33, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Washington Irving and Myth of The Flat Earth

The British comedy quiz show "Quite Interesting" claimed about seven years ago that Washington Irving has been credited by Terry Jones, of Monty Python, with originating a myth or lie that medieval people, people of the Renaissance, and the ancient Greeks thought the Earth was flat. Would there be *any* truth to the idea of him inventing this idea, and why would he do so? -96.26.108.183 (talk) 22:21, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, he definitely didn't invent the idea but there might be something here... He did write a popular book about Christopher Columbus. I don't know if there's a connection with him popularizing the confusion. But, if he wasn't the first to say it, I doubt it needs a mention here. Anyone know better? --Midnightdreary (talk) 00:15, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Re-reading the article, the origin of the idea that became the myth was indeed his "biography" of Columbus, which the article says was a fictionalized account. So, the question is about intent: did Irving just do sloppy research, believing he was writing real, accurate history? Did he intend to create a fictionalized account that he meant to be received as such? Was his intent simply overtaken by the agendas of others (that president of Princeton, for instance?) -96.26.108.183 (talk) 23:31, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I just read, "American novelist Washington Irving, who invented Rip Van Winkle, popularized the flat earth fable in 1828 in his best-selling biography of Christopher Columbus. Irving probably thought it added a dramatic flourish. Writers of American history soon picked up the story, and since textbooks tend to be clones of each other rather than based on historical sources, his little hoax persists in some books to this day. Other elements of American culture still perpetuate it. A character in the movie Star Trek V, for instance, says,' The people of your world once believed the earth to be flat; Columbus proved it was round.' " ☺ Dick Kimball (talk) 15:47, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

This is a worthwhile addition, though I sure hope that the esteemed Mr. Loewen is aware that Irving never wrote a single novel, let alone enough to be termed "novelist". --Midnightdreary (talk) 15:49, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

I got hold of the book on Columbus and read the citation noted above and Washington Irving did indeed popularize the myth that the RC church asserted the world to be flat. This issue is ubiquitous in modern consciousness and deserves to be addressed. Many people are being misled so it is within the scope of the wikipedia's mandate to set the record straight in this article wrt Washington Irving's contribution to the misinformation. After all, he was a well-known writer of fiction. The fact that what he wrote years ago was repeated without proper context is partly the fault of those who repeat the myth, without knowing the origin. Party WI's fault for saying something in a "historical account" that never happened. So a small citation, considering the myth's popularity, should give some credit to Irving.... just for the record.

It was already added based on the above comment... But, it's important to note, it was already there anyway. It's now very much represented so I'm not sure if this is a real complaint about the actual article. --Midnightdreary (talk) 19:07, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

social and conversational skills? acutely socially inept

• Contrast this (uncited) phrase with Julia Ward Howe's Reminiscences 1819-1899 (Google books will help you here), pp. 19-21, which describe him as acutely socially inept. Who should we believe? • Serviceable†Villain 10:54, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

It would have been easier had you copied and pasted or linked to the quote. The scene only shows his reluctance to give a speech, not his social ineptitude. So many other sources place him as a social giant, it's hard to give much weight to this one scene. --Midnightdreary (talk) 12:48, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

• Then cite, cite, cite your point, since apparently I have contested it. ;-) • Serviceable†Villain 08:43, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Umm... This approved good article is already cited like crazy, including the phrase, "Instead, Irving honed the social and conversational skills that would later make him one of the world's most in-demand guests." Is there a specific assertion you think lacks citation? --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:15, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Of course a GA pass does not mean every detail is correct. Do GA reviewers look into the details.. every detail.. of an article? Of course not. So GA pass is kinda irrelevant for detailed challenges... And it should be obvious that I am contesting that he was such a great speaker etc. Julia Ward Howe has him as embarrassed and inarticulate, and not just on one occasion, but generally. I'm not sure that cite is appropriately placed, and even if it is, I'm not sure it is accurate. In other words, just look into his great conversation skills generally. This section... sniffs a bit of hagiography... • Serviceable†Villain 03:01, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry you feel that way. I feel that Howe's memoir mentioning a man she barely knew written 50 years later is the problem at hand here. --Midnightdreary (talk) 12:07, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

The Jones book (the relevant cite) is not available for full-view or preview at Amazon, and I have zero access to real English-language books. I'm also terminally swamped, and just barely have enough time to spend maybe two minutes per day on Wikipedia... so I will keep this cite in mind and try to research it, but it will be a slowly-completed task. I do see there;s a YouTube Video by Jones (NYSL: Brian Jay Jones on "Washington Irving", but I don't have an hour to spend listening.. so.. thank you for your time and trouble; will check back in a few weeks if I have anything new. .. OK, I'm listening while working :-) and I hear at 24:14 or so that Irving "dreaded public speaking.. hated it". This video may be uncitable (?), and even if it is citable I would hesitate to cite something so ephemeral as a YouTube Video... but it's pretty interesting.... more at 30:20 in video about Irving's inability to speak publicly .. • Serviceable†Villain 13:22, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

While Irving loathed public speaking, he was far from "acutely socially inept." Irving was a highly-sought after guest in drawing rooms across Europe, and had an ability to work his way into almost any social event, even well before he was hugely famous. It's also doubtful he could have pulled off his duties as Van Buren's aide-de-camp or his responsibilities as Spanish ambassador if he were socially inhibited. I'd be very skeptical of classifying him in such a way. Federalistpapers (talk) 21:14, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Sub-sub-headings

To clarify the recent additions, which the editor has said are "consistent" with several other articles, are not subheadings, but sub-sub-headings, something I rarely see in quality articles on Wikipedia. The result is a massive table of contents which is hardly navigable or user-friendly, and some of the small sub-sub-headings are left with precious little content. Perhaps a semi-colon would be a compromise? --Midnightdreary (talk) 01:48, 30 October 2015 (UTC) Would it be relevant to provide a "significance" subheading in order to give context to Irving's contributions to the colonized state?Ka3tucker (talk) 20:12, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

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Painter?

"The President blessed young Irving, an encounter that Irving commemorated in a small watercolor painting which continues to hang in his home." -Did Irving paint it, or is this referring to Butler's or someone else's? Manannan67 (talk) 04:37, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Good catch. Irving was not the painter. I have made a minor adjustment to the wording. --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:41, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Washington Irving House, NYC?

Where is the Washington Irving House, New York City? It is clearly not the same as the Tarrytown building. Valetude (talk) 23:29, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Can you clarify your question? Where are you seeing "the Washington Irving House, New York City"? --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:14, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

On the Wiki page for Elsie de Wolfe. And elsewhere too. Valetude (talk) 16:40, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Ah. You can understand my confusion as there is no reference to that person or that house anywhere on this particular article. Perhaps your questions would be better asked at the talk page for Elsie de Wolfe? --Midnightdreary (talk) 12:54, 15 November 2019 (UTC)