Talk:Wali mujbir

this is not true

this is not true

because there is hadith, that bride cannot be married against her will --Qdinar (talk) 16:31, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The four estabished schools of Islamic jurisprudence in Sunni Islam plus the Imamiyya and the Zaidiyya of Shia-Islam have the wali mujbir as essential part of their doctrin. What Qdinar says is just the opinion of an individual without any authority. Metron (talk) 05:11, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

can you give proof links? --Qdinar (talk) 18:12, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

He can't because it's blatantly false. I have almost no knowledge of Shi'a fiqh, but all mainstream schools of Sunni law oppose this practice in the mu'tamid opinions of their schools; anyone who says otherwise is either taking knowledge solely from the work of Orientalists hostile toward Islam or has simply never studied Islamic jurisprudence.

Thus we have a choice: delete or merge? Obviously, an article which exists solely to promote a lie shouldn't exist. The practice, however, is claimed by the Encyclopedia of Islam...which is reliable in that it expresses Western views of Islam. I'm going to see if I can look it up based on the page just to confirm, if that is in fact what the source says then it can be merged into wali, making it clear that this is the Encyclopedia of Islam's view, NOT the majority view of any Sunni school of Islamic law (we might need help from a Shi'a editor to ensure that their view, whatever it is, is also represented). MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:16, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

see also Talk:Marriage in Islam#Encyclopaedia of Islam is not an authoritative source --Qdinar (talk) 10:38, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

authoritativeness in islam ...

"The Encyclopaedia of Islam, New Edition" – this is not authoritative islamic source, but may be authoritative european science source. i would and going to open or find a topic in wikipedia forum about authoritativeness in islam itself and in european science, sometimes they do not match --Qdinar (talk) 18:17, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Source for wali mujbir

Unfortunaterly most sources from Muslims about wali mujbir are in arabic. Most ulama know how much the rulings concerning wali mujbir offend Westeners and liberal Muslims. Here is one from Kuwait University, Qdinar: http://pubcouncil.kuniv.edu.kw/jsis/homear.aspx?id=8&Root=yes&authid=877 --Metron (talk) 09:56, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with offending people, it's simply the fact that this term is unheard of in the Muslim world. I never heard of this until I found it on Wikipedia and I have not found any reference to it at all in the traditional manuals of jurisprudence of multiple schools of thought. I'm also not sure how an article supported only by a single source can be a notable topic. MezzoMezzo (talk) 11:09, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

i have found something from hadithes but that is not main idea of the hadithes but the idea of possibility of forcing into marriage can be taken from words of some hadithes : http://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/11/29 :

The Messenger of Allah said: "The matron has more right to herself than her Wali, and the virgin is to give permission for herself, and her silence is her permission."

– so , it is said that widow has has more right , it look like it means that non-widow, virgin has less rights than her wali , but , there are other hadithes that strictly say that her permission is mandatory:

http://sunnah.com/muslim/16/80

Sufyan reported on the basis of the same chain of transmitters (and the words are):

A woman who has been previously married (Thayyib) has more right to her person than her guardian; and a virgin's father must ask her consent from her, her consent being her silence, At times he said: Her silence is her affirmation.

http://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/72

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! How can we know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission).

http://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/11/28

Abu Hurairah narrated that:

The Prophet said: "A matron should not be given in marriage until she is consulted, and a virgin should not be given in marriage until her permission is sought, and her silence is her permission." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qdinar (talk • contribs) 11:04, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

i had read in an article that all 4 sunni mazhabs allow forced marriage. i have investigated that and i know also some other scholar texts: http://shamela.ws/browse.php/book-11444/page-1907 , http://www.saaid.net/Doat/samer/10.htm . i cannot read arabic, but i see 2 hadithes in 1st of these 2 links, and they do not allow forcing. the darakutni hadith says that father marries his virgin daughter, i interpret that not as he forces her, but as he organises that and helps her to select good groom/fiance. i have requested translation of that text : deleted: http:// islam.stackexchange. com/questions/27513/please-translate-a-text-about-forced-marriage. the second link is from a comment from there. --Qdinar (talk) 11:35, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

i have found an idea that can explain the idea of wali mujbir: http://islam.stackexchange.com/a/29987/ :

Also, I'm not sure if you already know this or not, but one of the conditions for marrying a young girl that most of the scholars agreed upon is that the young girl doesn't leave her parents house and move with her husband until she can bear intercourse (she doesn't have to wait until she hits puberty).

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Qdinar (talk • contribs) 19:54, 11 January 2017 (UTC)