Talk:Virginia Giuffre

Hello

Hello everyone I have developed a Temperature and will destroy anyone who deletes this comment to ensure accuracy of the Scandal and it will be updated hopefully as the story moves forward. Personisgaming (talk) 00:57, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Get over yourself. "destroy anyone who deletes this"? If you believe that you will believe anything 2A00:23C6:BA13:4801:18A7:9967:226E:2826 (talk) 16:01, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Subject's name is misspelled in title, needs correction

The subjects name is not spelled correctly. Her last name is Giuffre not Guiffre. Apparently there is a redirect from the subjects correct name to the incorrectly spelled title page where the biography is being written/edited. Can someone correct this please? While the rest of the article needs work, this error is urgent. Thanks and Kind Regards, Cedar777 (talk) 15:30, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

• This matter has already been resolved. THANK YOU! Cedar777 (talk) 08:25, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Shouldn't her name just be Virginia Giuffre as that's the name she is using in all of her legal proceedings and is clearly the one she wants to use officially?

Biography page for Giuffre, sources

There is no page, yet, for the Epstein scandal itself. There is a need for it. As for Giuffre's biography page, recent changes have been done with the aim of A) reducing the previous over-reliance on a single self-published youtube video from LegalEagle (much of the coverage can be sourced elsewhere from investigative reporting) and B) reintegrating the timeline of the scandal into Giuffre's biography. It is important to understand the context for Giuffre's reported actions but it comes across as a WP:COATRACK when separated out completely. Kind Regards, Cedar777 (talk) 17:44, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

section

Why is this section Virginia_Roberts_Giuffre#Crime_Victims_Rights_Act_lawsuit_(2008–2019) on the article? Does it relate to this WP:BLP subject? Or did it get copied from some other article? If not clear connection I will blank it and put it here per WP:PRESERVE. The way the section is written now it doesnt appear to have any connection. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 15:08, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

• It was included in error due to copying a line from another page. Thanks and Kind Regards, Cedar777 (talk) 01:07, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Date of Prince Andrew's alleged Abuse

Ordinarily the exact date a crime took place might not be particularly relevant but due to the proximity to her 18th birthday that this crime took place it seems it would be appropriate to include it rather than a vague "2001." Did We know she was born 9 August 1983 so we could determine her exact age (also relevant) at the time by knowing the exact date. While it would be illegal to engage in sex with a minor regardless of exact age, punishment often depends on proximity of the victim's age to 18. For example, if she was two days away from turning 18 when she was raped then the punishment would likely be somewhat reduced as compared to if she had just turned 17 a few days prior. I would also like to point out that the age of consent in the UK at the time and still is 16 so how that fact plays into this is also relevant and should be discussed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.32.55.37 (talk) 12:10, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Sources state that there were multiple instances and locations (UK, New Mexico, US Virgin Islands) where Giuffre was sex trafficked to Prince Andrew by Epstein. While the widely publicized photo of her with Andrew in London is the most visible instance, there was an extended period of time and more than one place in which she was trafficked to him. However, Giuffre's birthday, verifiably sourced to a Miami Herald article, is not that essential when looking at the broader scope of things. Giuffre spent the month following her 18th birthday at a massage school in Thailand before escaping from Epstein. She was trafficked by Epstein between 16 - 18 years of age.

Steve Scully, a new witness and former contractor for Epstein, corroborates her account of being with Andrew on Little Saint James.

Florida resident Johanna Sjoberg has reported that she and Giuffre were flown to New York together in 2001 in order to entertain Andrew for his birthday at Epstein's residence (where Sjoberg was groped by Andrew).

Several of Epstein's other accusers (notably Sarah Ransome) have reported being deceived and entrapped as young adults by Epstein (and Maxwell) at his private property in New Mexico and Little Saint James: the key point being that Human trafficking is a crime regardless of age. It is especially reprehensible when done to children. Kind Regards, Cedar777 (talk) 23:25, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

This article is fundamentally wrong. Change it. 2A00:23C8:1D85:6101:39E3:C0E7:31C5:73B7 (talk) 20:14, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

You are correct that sex trafficking is a crime regardless of age, but that's not necessarily what we're talking about here. Prince Andrew is a respected, educated, and important man, and a major public figure who has done much for the world. Virginia Giuffre is an uneducated, blue collar worker who has spent the last 3 years promoting conspiracy theories on the internet, and who has been rather amiable with far-right elements of the alternative media, including Qanon and anti-semitic conspirac theorists. She is obviously seeking media attention for this whole fiasco, and she hasn't really done or said anything else to demonstrate that her word can be trusted. So who should we believe more, some loose, attention seeking, young woman, from a uneducated background who has promoted anti-semitic conspiracy theories and Qanon, or one of the most respected public figures in the UK and the world? 2601:198:4100:17E0:30D3:1237:4730:30C1 (talk) 15:32, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

First criminal case

Why is this section here Virginia_Roberts_Giuffre#First_criminal_case? Does it have anything to do with the article's BLP subject, or it is a WP:CONTENTFORK? Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 19:46, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

As the subject is notable due to her sustained efforts to communicate her experiences with Epstein to a wide array of RS, how she fits into the evolving public knowledge of his various prosecutions is relevant. What he has been convicted and accused of is complex, as is the way in which the subject engaged in her legal challenges. The prosecution of Epstein was ongoing for the last 14-15 years of his life and the subject entered into the process in order to challenge the initial conclusion to the first criminal case. Background on this case is directly related to what the subject is known for. Cedar777 (talk) 21:05, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Support for QAnon

Giuffre has begun posting things in line with the QAnon conspiracy theory. https://nypost.com/2020/10/22/maxwell-accuser-shares-qanon-messages-before-deposition-unsealed/ Should this be included in the article? Awoma (talk) 19:40, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

It would be wise to wait for better quality sources and multiple sources reporting on this before adding anything about it to the article. It does appear there have been some developments in the news on the court case related to the release of Maxwell’s deposition as covered by NPR. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a news site, anything reported by NY Post does not seem warranted at this time. Thanks and Kind Regards, Cedar777 (talk) 00:08, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Nationality vs citizenship

Infobox has two headings, "Nationality" and "Citizenship". For the first it has "American", for the second it has "Australia" and "United States". What does this mean? And what are the sources to justify this?

Legally speaking, she is a citizen and national of both countries. Nationality means to owe allegiance to a state; citizenship means to have political rights in it. 99% of the time the two concepts are identical. There are some rare cases under US law where you can have US nationality without US citizenship (e.g. people born in American Samoa), but those cases do not apply to the vast majority of US nationals, including her. By contrast, under contemporary Australian law, Australian nationality and Australian citizenship are the same thing.

It sounds like this is trying to say that even though she is legally an Australian citizen, she is not a "real Australian", which is offensive. If she is an Australian citizen then she is as much an Australian as any other. (Now, if someone was to quote her as saying "Even though I'm legally an Australian citizen I don't consider myself an Australian, only an American" – different story, but I'm not aware of any such statement by her.) Mr248 (talk) 09:54, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Mr248 That is a good question and is worth a closer look. My recollection is that the sources do not specify Giuffre’s status all that clearly. Nationality, to my understanding, reflects where a person spent their formative years, i. e., what cultural experience were they steeped in, as this never leaves one even if they no longer physically live there. Whereas citizenship is a legal term, where one votes, has political rights, etc.

So by this logic, Giuffre was born and raised within American culture which is reflected in her nationality as American.

Citizenship is listed as both nations..

A look at Wikipedia policy may help us clarify how those terms are meant to be used in this encyclopedia. Kind Regards, Cedar777 (talk) 11:25, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Cedar777 Nationality, to my understanding, reflects where a person spent their formative years, i. e., what cultural experience were they steeped in, as this never leaves one even if they no longer physically live there. Whereas citizenship is a legal term, where one votes, has political rights, etc Both "nationality" and "citizenship" are legal terms. All US nationals are also US citizens, except for "US nationals without citizenship" (presently only American Samoans fall into that category, although there is an active lawsuit challenging that). Anyway, given article subject was born in Sacramento not Pago Pago, it is clear that she is legally both a US national and a US citizen, assuming she has not renounced her US nationality/citizenship. (Although US nationality and citizenship are distinct, you generally can only gain or lose them together, you can't acquire them or renounce them separately – American Samoans are a rare exception to that general rule.) Unlike US law, current Australian law does not distinguish nationality from citizenship, all Australian nationals are Australian citizens and all Australian citizens are Australian nationals. That said, even under Australian law, they are technically distinct – nationality is a relationship of mutual duty between a sovereign state and an individual; citizenship is having political rights (such as the right to vote) in a sovereign state. Normally all nationals have citizenship but sometimes you can have nationality without citizenship, as in the American Samoa case. (I don't believe anybody lets you have citizenship without nationality.) So legally speaking, assuming it is correct that she has been naturalised as an Australian citizen, her nationality is both Australia and US.

If you look at media articles about her, American media calls her an "American" and Australian media calls her an "Australian". For example this article begins "Virginia Roberts Giuffre, an outspoken Australian survivor of billionaire financier and accused sex trafficker Jeffery Epstein..." (my emphasis). It seems clear that she is an American Australian. Mr248 (talk) 21:01, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 10 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Per discussion and WP:COMMONNAME (non-admin closure)  — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 11:19, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

---

Virginia Roberts Giuffre → Virginia Giuffre – She used the name Virginia L. Giuffre in her recent filing of a lawsuit in New York. This could be a case of WP:NAMECHANGES. The other argument can be based on WP:COMMONNAME. I get over 3.5 millions hits for Virginia Giuffre on Google, and only 990K for Virginia Roberts Giuffre. Not to mention that nearly all online news websites and newspapers have referred to her as Virginia Giuffre in their recent articles or reports: BBC, Fox News, The Independent, The New York Times, CNN, Sky News, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, etc. Keivan.f^Talk 20:18, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

• I Support the article being set up under Virginia Giuffre as the primary name. Thanks, Cedar777 (talk) 03:19, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support Most current reports tend to refer to her as Virginia Giuffre, in the past they tend to say Virginia Roberts, I have not often seen this hybrid name. PatGallacher (talk) 13:21, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support. Clear WP:COMMONNAME. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:51, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support As stated above, this is a clear WP:COMMONNAME. Galaxy1011 (talk) 02:58, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Repeated additions of unsourced material and/or material from non-Reliable Sources

Daily Mail and The Mail on Sunday are considered unreliable by a consensus of Wikipedia editors: see WP:RSP for a listing showing a range of sources color coded based on general trustworthiness. There is a listing in red (for stop - don't use) for both The Daily Mail and again, further down, for The Mail on Sunday. The sentence "She would later on change her account to state that Prince Andrew abused her" has been repeatedly added to the article without an inline citation to a reliable source. This line needs to be removed from the article ASAP unless it is backed up by a reliable source. Cedar777 (talk) 14:44, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Should we regard Courthouse News Service as a reliable source? PatGallacher (talk) 12:06, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Nonsensical opening sentence

The first sentence:

"Virginia Louise Giuffre... is an American-Australian campaigner to support sex trafficking victims."

does not make sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.218.134 (talk) 14:08, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Agreed: I'll revise it now to make it clearer Billsmith60 (talk) 17:41, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Alan Dershowitz is missing from the lead

The lead for this article doesn't mention Alan Dershowitz and his alleged involvement in the sex trafficking. This seems like a strange omission given he's got a section in the article body. To bring the lead in line with policy it should summarize the portion of the article relating to him. 108.174.175.69 (talk) 02:48, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 January 2022

Proposal to add to the section "Alan Dershowitz allegations and related lawsuits" the following text:

In 2019, Dershowitz called Virginia Giuffre a prostitute during an interview and admitted having received a massage in the Epstein mansion, but he alleges the woman was adult and that he had kept his underpants on during the massage. 77.101.165.75 (talk) 16:36, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. That is not a reliable source, especially for a BLP. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:38, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

References

It goes much further than this; Dershowitz went so far as to self publish a book against her and her baseless accusations. Book is published on Google Play Nov 2019 and is free as he obviously wants to spread his viewpoint around. Also free on Amazon and a physical copy available for purchase. Guilt by Accusation: The Challenge of Proving Innocence in the Age of #MeToo. I would certainly agree with the poster as the book is in his own words Kav2001c (talk) 19:02, 13 January 2022 (UTC)kav2001c

New article

Should we create a new article called "Virginia Giuffre v Prince Andrew" or something similar? It would avoid duplication and overlap between this article and Prince Andrew, Duke of York. PatGallacher (talk) 22:51, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Link to 'Death of Epstein' in 2nd paragraph of intro?

As title suggests, I feel that the end of the second paragraph of the intro ("The following day, August 10, 2019, Epstein was found dead in his Manhattan prison cell.") should link to Death of Jeffrey Epstein, given its significance and the further information that can be found there. Rafaelloaa (talk) 04:36, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Source quality

As the subject is engaged in a number of active legal battles with Dershowitz and Andrew that are exceptionally high profile and contentious, it would be best to proceed with caution and to only consider content from the highest quality sources, i.e. those that are green on WP:RSP. Giuffre's unpublished, rough draft of a memoir is problematic as a source, particularly when only covered by a marginal source such as Business Insider. It is UNDUE to list a range of people she has mentioned in passing to imply they are perpetrators of abuse without the best quality of sourcing. What is more credible and relevant for an encyclopedia article, are to only list those she had actually filed formal legal actions against (Dershowitz and Andrew). Cedar777 (talk) 09:42, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

@Cedar777: Business Insider, which is also referred to as Insider, hasn't been established as an unreliable source (check WP:RSP). Frankly, it doesn't matter if her memoir has been published or not; it was unsealed by a court and is a valid documentation of events that took place while she was in Epstein's social orbit. Not to mention that we already have a bunch of them listed, including "hedge fund manager Glenn Dubin, attorney Alan Dershowitz, politician Bill Richardson, the late MIT scientist Marvin Minsky, lawyer George J. Mitchell, and MC2 modeling agent Jean-Luc Brunel" whose names appeared in the same unsealed documents from 2019. So it's definitely not WP:UNDUE as the article already discusses a number of them. I have looked for a better source that reports on the matter and found NPR, a perfectly reliable source according to WP:RSP. Keivan.f^Talk 17:16, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

The names should indeed be listed; these are not undue because they've been widely reported on. Nothing she has said in public will be "in passing", but carefully considered, and likely all checked by her legal counsel before she says them (she can get sued for the slightest factual mistake, and has been sued).

"Green on WP:RSP" is not an indicator of quality. Sources that are yellow on RSP can be as reliable as "green" sources depending on the context and what additional considerations apply, and sources not listed can be more reliable than most "green" sources (but just less discussed at RSN). — Bilorv (talk) 21:40, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Virginia Giuffre.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:07, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Ugly Clean Arlene (talk) 18:51, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Unnecessary "alleged"s

We know that Giuffre was a victim of Epstein and can say so in Wikipedia's voice; we do so in the first paragraph of the lead, with [Giuffre] is a victim of the sex trafficking ring of Jeffrey Epstein. However, the article seems to use language that suggests it is unclear whether Giuffre was a victim or not, such as the section title "Association with Epstein (2000–2002)" and the lead's She has been interviewed by many American and British reporters about her alleged experiences of being trafficked by Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell (emphasis mine).

I suggest that we rewrite these misleading areas to avoid any suggestion of possible falsehood, as "allegation" necessarily connotes, in the fact that Giuffre was abused by Epstein. Where necessary, this can be done without BLP violations against living people associated with Epstein. For instance, I am not convinced that there is any issue with saying that Giuffre was trafficked by Maxwell, as she has been criminally convicted of sex trafficking (and it is normal in case of serial crimes against hundreds to thousands of people to only prosecute for a token few, as this still ensures long sentences and it is impossible to go through the legal process for every individual with evidence). However, if it is absolutely necessary, then clauses like the one I quote can be rephrased e.g. as She has given a detailed account to many American and British reporters of being trafficked by Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell.

We also need some contextualisation of While there is no doubt Giuffre was involved with Epstein, there are some inconsistencies in her accounts with what is normal in cases of child abuse (which is a known fact here) and the survivor's memory. Without this, the sentence potentially uses an unremarkable fact common to most people who have lived through extreme sexual abuse in a way that casts doubt on her character (a form of victim blaming). — Bilorv (talk) 21:56, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Agree with both of the points raised here. Much of the article was built from sources found prior to both Maxwell’s arrest & conviction and Giuffre filing & settling her civil suit against Andrew. Brunel was also arrested and has died in jail. Quite a bit has changed.

I modified the lede and removed the problematic sentence in the body that implied victim blaming. Perhaps some aspect of it could be made more neutral and restored but I don’t see much need to do so. Others may disagree. Cedar777 (talk) 17:03, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Most sources I've seen don't directly say she was a victim of Epstein, but say something to the effect that she has accused him. For instance the BBC source I just put in the lede Tristario (talk) 03:18, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 July 2022

Regarding:

In 2020, she moved with her family to Ocean Reef, a suburb of Perth, Western Australia.[1]

The reference number does not follow the sequence of previous reference numbers. Nickstopforth (talk) 19:46, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

 Note: That's because the source is first invoked earlier in the article ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:07, 9 July 2022 (UTC)