Talk:Tomsk

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Early discussion[edit]

Jheijmans please see my point of view on geographical terms (specialy of cities, towns, ...) at Peterlin's user's talk. Is there any other Tomsk all over the world? -- XJam [2002.07.24] 3 Wednesday (0).

XJam, I've seen your point of view, and I actually agree with it. However, it has become part of the Wikipedia:naming conventions to name cities in this way. Although I do not (fully) agree with the convention, I do support naming conventions in general, and therefore make the necessary changes to the pages. The topic has been discussed on Wikipedia:Wikipedia-L, so there you can also post your concerns.

You, and others, are in no way forced to follow any of the naming conventions of Wikipedia, although I ask you to consider doing so. Knowing the conventions will make it easier for you to link to other articles, and using them therefore also makes it easier for others to do so. In that way, we all have more time to actually write articles and build up Wikipedia. I hope you will consider this.

BTW, you can make signing your talks easier by using three or four tildes (~). The first will put your user-name (linked), the second will also include servertime. Jheijmans 02:39 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

If someone want to know where Tomsk is I am shure he knows enough geography to figure it out without knowing the state it belongs, otherwise geography is of no usage for him. Such person would probably rest on one place all of his life. Okay I shall examine in full the naming convention and I'll try to get used on it somehow. Until then get my best regards. And thank you for nice shortcut on signature. -- XJamRastafire 02:50 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

What does this sentence mean? "Boris Godunov ordered Cossack leader Gavril Pisemsky? and boyar son Tyrkov to found a fort on the River Tom" Who was the boyar and who was whose son? 65.56.188.18 06:49 Aug 12, 2002 (PDT)

Side bar[edit]

I added a sidebar based on the one used for Moscow. All the info within it is from the Russian version of this page, which is featured, and thus hopefully accurate. However, tables seem quite tough to me, and I don't know how to format it to be more like the Russian version, as I want to add the official website to it at the bottom. -Estrellador* 20:12, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for improving the sidebar. However, I think it would look better with the website at the bottom, and would give more room for the flag and emblem. How can I get that to work, as changing the order doesn't seem to make any difference. Estrellador* 20:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is a standard template Infobox City, you can't change separately, only for one particular page, the way these features are displayed. For me it seems that there is no strong necessity to change. Though I'm going to create a special template for Russian cities/towns. Ъыь 20:43, 14 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Please correct[edit]

Tomsk city administration (talk) 06:50, 29 October 2015 (UTC)Please correctTomsk city administration (talk) 06:50, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please, remove the names of the following air companies, as they've seized their operations in Tomsk: Transaero and Tomskavia.

Please, remove the names othe following mass media, as they've seized their operations in Tomsk: the TV2 television station and Tomskii Vestnik.

 Done--Ymblanter (talk) 16:01, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Khakas name[edit]

Tomsk does not, and never had, significant Khakas population, therefore adding the Khakas name in the lede is IMO inappropriate. We do sometimes add to the lede names of the localities in languages different from the official languages, for example, if there were strong historical ties with the language, but here even the link is missing.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:40, 8 January 2019 (UTC) -[reply]

I understand what you want to say, but the fact is that may be you do not understand this. The fact is that this is the name of this city Shor and Khakas lanaguages, in Novokuznetsk there is also a Shor organization called Aba-Tura (Russian: Аба-Тура). Another fact is that the Khakas and the Shors are one people and therefore they call the city the same. Also in the Shor dictionary we can see an example of the fact that in the Shor language Novokuznetsk is Aba-Tura:

  • до 1. (указывает на пространственный предел) четтире: От Мысков до Новокузнецка. Томазақтаң Аба-тура четтире*

Sebirkhan (talk) 18:15, 8 January 2019 (UTC) (upd) sorry I confused with another city, now I will prepare the answer for Tom-Tura Sebirkhan (talk) 18:19, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    • Altaians, Khakas, Shors call Tomsk Tom-Tura, Kuznetsk - Aba-Tura, Biysk - Yaş-Tura. As we see, the same principle was retained when the city was renamed to Oirot-Tura. From January 7, 1948 the city became Gorno-Altai. The renaming is based on a geographical name. You can read more about this in various sources, including here http://altai-mountains.ru/articles/?idnews=4051 (in russian).Sebirkhan (talk) 18:24, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      Just to make it clear, your argument is that because there is a name for Tomsk in Khakas it should be included in the lede?--Ymblanter (talk) 18:30, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The question is not that the name should be in Khakass. I believe that we can add either Khakass, or Shor, or North Altai, or South Altai name, because they are all one nation and call the city the same - Tom-Tura, also you can read in the source that in Shor language Tomsk is Tom-Tura, I believe that adding the Shor name is more acceptable, becouse Shors are officially considered to be the indigenous people of the Kemerovo Oblast.

Tom-Tura in Shor dictionary: http://nordvind.ucoz.net/library/Linguistics/teach-ys-books/Shor.pdf Том-тура — город Томск (page 13) Sebirkhan (talk) 18:41, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • I do not particularly care whether it is Khakas, Shor, or Aktai, Could you please present an argument why such name should be in the article? So far, the on;y argument I am seeing is that the name exists.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:58, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Becouse Altaic nations are indigenous people in Tomsk Oblast Sebirkhan (talk) 19:17, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      Certainly not now.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:21, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • This words look like racism Sebirkhan (talk) 19:25, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Why do not you look at the population statistics for Tomsk Oblast?--Ymblanter (talk) 19:29, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    And please strike out the racism accusation as a completely unjustified personal attack.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:31, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • What does the national composition have to do with the name of the city in the language of the indigenous peoples (selkup, shor, khakas, tuvan, chulym, tatar, kumandin, altai, ket, tofalar people)? Sebirkhan (talk) 19:38, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      What are you talking about? Tomsk was founded by russians, and it was always a russian city. And please strike the racism accusation.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:49, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do not know how we can resolve this conflict. With your permission, I called into the discussion 5 random administrators to write their opinion about it.
Dear administrators, The problem is that your colleague does not allow me to put the name in brackets in the language of the indigenous people of this city in Russia. I hope for your experience because I myself do not have much experience in such disputes, and if you do not agree with me, then I will leave this matter. Yamaguchi先生, Neutrality, Kaiser_matias, Amakuru, Julia_W Sebirkhan (talk) 20:18, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since I've been pinged in, at first glance I'm inclined to agree with Ymblanter. The Republic of Khakassia is located some distance from Tomsk, and there is no obvious connection between the Khkass people and Tomsk in its history. And the fact that there is a specific word for the city in Khakass doesn't really prove anything. The French called London Londres, but that doesn't mean we should include that name in the lede of our London article. @Sebirkhan: I suggest that you give further evidence of a link or significant Khakass population if you want to continue this, and also refrain from calling other editors racist, as that constitutes a personal attack. Thanks and good luck  — Amakuru (talk) 20:38, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    My mistake is that I mentioned only Khakas, although the name of the city of Tomsk is “Tom-Tura” not only in the Khakass language, but also the Shor, Kumandin, Altai, Chulym, Tofalar, Tyvaan, Oirot. This is due to the fact that all these peoples speak similar languages ​​and can understand each other without a translator. And the name "Tom-Tura" comes from their languages: "Tom" is the name of the river, and "Tura" translates as "city". I said that his words are similar to racism because he did not agree that the indigenous people live there, although this is true, they still live there, but they are few. : In addition, my opponent wrote a lie about the fact that Tomsk was built by the Russians, but there are many sources that the settlement existed before the Russian invasion You can also read about this on the "History of Tomsk" page. But I think it makes no sense to drop sources here, becouse all written in Russian and you will not understand.Sebirkhan (talk) 21:01, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment You are misunderstanding the purpose of the language links. They aren’t there to satisfy every possible ethnic group that may have stood on that land nor are they there as some sort of homage to the indigenous inhabitants if they no longer live there. I’m sorry if that is what you believe it is for. You will see those links in cases where there is a meaningful population of speakers like Swedish language links on Finnish cities or if a particular place was under the legal jurisdiction of some country and carried another official name such as Gdańsk/Danzig. Tomsk is none of those things. For the most part, people also don’t list names of cities in Latin, Visigothic or Ancient Egyptian. Don’t make this personal. As long as you make personal attacks, there may not be anyone willing to come to your defense either and help you make a case. TastyPoutine talk (if you dare) 02:12, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: @TastyPoutine: About the latin and other ancient languages, I guess it's because their settlements are treated as distinct topics: Londonium for example WhisperToMe (talk) 23:34, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image of a Muslim school's students in Tomsk: could be useful for the Commons?[edit]

While going through the archives of the Servet-i Funun, an Ottoman Turkish newspaper, I found an image of students of a school for Muslims. https://archives.saltresearch.org/bitstream/123456789/129372/742/PFSIF9181003A129%20(1918-10-03).jpg

I wonder if the image is PD and if so if it qualifies for the Commons WhisperToMe (talk) 23:33, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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