Talk:Timbuktu/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Misplaced text

It looks like the text "ey...school is kool" in the "Shabeni" subsection is misplaces. (218.228.195.44 04:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC))

Photos?

Can we find any photos without copyright problems?

There are some architectural gems in this city.Dogru144 06:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

nuon headquarters?

under attractions: "From 2008, NUON will set up their EDM headquarters in Timbuktu, to be headed by André Koelewijn.[citation needed]" - this needs links to NUON and EDM to remain 58.6.92.252 02:42, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Scholars

Scholars of Timbuktu

^I wonder what people think about creating a section exclusively designated for information about the various scholars, like Ahmed Baba, etc..? A fine example of this is the timbuktu foundation's page on them, above.Taharqa 19:46, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind, I just noticed that we already have that on the Sankore pageTaharqa 05:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The current release of lost texts needs watching carefully by the West. There is every likelihood some of the lost Alexandrian texts may surface here, including Arabic translations of Greek texts lost in the fall of Rome - the 12th century Gerona/Toledo translations only covered part of the story. Of particular relevance will be cosmological and possibly mathematical techniques, as well.

removed tidbits

I removed two comments from the bottom, including the one about Timbuktu being a metaphor for far-away places, since it says that in the introductory paragraph. - DavidWBrooks 19:20, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"The place name is said to come from a Tuareg woman named Buktu who dug a well in the area where the city stands today; hence "Timbuktu", which means "Buktu's well"." is contradictory to a previous statement that says Tin means place and tinbuktu ment "the place of Buktu" not that it meant butku's well —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.219.77.156 (talk) 15:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Geography

Since i had a hard time finding it on a satellite map: Google Earth puts the city at 16°46'31.15"N , 3° 0'29.75"W; the only source listed in Geographic coordinates (obtaining) to list it, The Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names, puts it at a less precise 16º49'00"N, 02º59'00"W . Atcack 20:09, 04 Jul 2006 (UTC)

Each of the English, French and German versions of the article give slightly differing coordinates. But since 1 minute corresponds only to less than 2 km [geographic coordinates], it does not seem to be important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.152.254.164 (talk) 23:30, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Early Steel Iron Production

Most articles mention that early on there was substantial iron, steel productioni in Timbuktu as evidenced by large slag piles round about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.195.75.17 (talk) 21:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Pop Culture Reference

Would it be worthwhile to note that Timbuktu has become a common metaphor (at least in America) for a far-off or distant place, "From here to Timbuktu!" Or maybe the phrase isn't as common as I think. Rainman420 22:12, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Certainly. The article had such a reference in its early days, but it has been much altered. - DavidWBrooks 23:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed! I bet way more people come here searching for origin of the cultural reference than are interested in learning about the African people. --Elindstr (talk) 17:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

GA on hold

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there is an issue that needs to be addressed.

The article is heavily under-referenced; every statement that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs an inline citation. Examples include:

"Timbuktu was established by the nomadic Tuareg perhaps as early as the 10th century."
"Songhai grew powerful because of its control of local trade routes."
"Sankore, as it stands now, was built in 1581 AD"
"Timbuktu is a UNESCO World Heritage Site, listed since 1988."

I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GA/R). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAC. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions. Regards, Epbr123 09:40, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

As no progress has been made, I'm afraid I've had to delist the article.Timbuktu is a really nice place to visit Epbr123 10:28, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Most likely because whoever wrote it has moved on years ago and doesn't check for such comments very often if at all. Being delisted by GA is becoming a badge of honour, given the number of sites you've dumped all over - all this kind of thing does is destroy the reputation of WP. If you wanted to be useful you'd find someone who knows something about the subject and ask them to update. The word bumptious comes to mind. Why don't you write to the editors and warn them rather than just posting this BS?

What is ISU-EDM and why is it an Attraction?

Uneer "Atractions" is the entry: "From 2008, ISU-EDM will be implemented in Timbuktu by André Koelewijn" Is the general reader supposed to know what "ISU-EDM" is??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.115.9.254 (talk) 16:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Holy City??

As far as my knowlegde of Islam goes, there are 3 holy cities namely: Makkah, Medinah and Jerusalem.

Where did other four cities come from? Which are those cities? Please Mention what sects you are referring to... Shia? Ahmadiaya? Ismaili?

Otherwise it's very misleading to people who are unaware of this fact. If it were not for this discussion page, I would have promptly erased "and one of the seven holy citys of Islam".

Also: how is this article part of a series on islam? Like, what part of it relates to islam? Okay, it's a city whose majority religion is islam, but it doesn't clarify the religion or its practices at all. I vote the sidebar be removed. Kitmention (talk) 15:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Sister cities

Why does Hay-on-Wye have a Welsh flag? It should have a Union Flag. Otherwise Temple, Arizona should be represented by the flag of that state, not the US flag. Richardhearnden (talk) 20:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

What's this "Liopolis" business?? My delete finger itches. Flapdragon 20:57, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Survey - Mythical Place

I'd suggest the line reading a survey among 150 young Britons in 2006 found 34% did not believe the town existed, while the other 66% considered it "a mythical place" should be removed. This implies that someone carried out a survey "Do you believe Timbuktu is either a) a mythical place or b) doesn't exist". If indeed someone did carry out such a survey it is clearly flawed, though it's more likely the BBC misreported this. Either way it's meaningless. Tim Boothby (talk) 00:14, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I just removed it for the following reasons: a) The Survey obviously had two options - each as stupid as the other. b) The sample size was small c) What British people think about Timbuktu is irrelevant. d) It looks like something done by a bored Uni student. ~ 58.178.30.40 (talk) 00:05, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, that's not how Wikipedia works. The stadard is "verifibility NOT truth". As the survey was covered by the BBC and several other large news organisations, it comes from what we call a "reliable source". "it's more likely the BBC misreported this" might be true. Find a verifiable mainstream source that says this and report it. Your professional oppinion of the news story, though, is not sufficient reason to remove things from articles. For further detail, please look over Wikipedia:No_original_research#Sources. T L Miles (talk) 15:31, 25 June 2009 (UTC) none (for heaven's sake)Prisms and rain (talk) 09:49, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Correct Etymology?

According to the Timbuktu Educational Foundation, Timbuktu is derived from the name of the lady, Tin Obutut, who owned the well where the city was founded. Hobojoe9127 (talk) 18:23, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

There is a lot of places in the Sahara that use the syllable `Tin` at the beginning, meaning ´place´. Algerian border towns carry the names ´Tin Alkoum´, ´Tin Fouye`, `Tin Hinane` and `Tindouf´ for example (I could go on). In some cases, for example when a voiced letter like `b` or `m` follows this `n´ turns into an `m´, an examples other than Timbuktu would be `Timmissaou`, but there are also `Timoktene`, ´Timoudi´ or ´Timimoun´(I could go on). It is really very clear that Timbuktu is just one place out of many. Any other story really sounds like folk etymology. Reputed sources also get it wrong.

Re: The narrative of Robert Adams

The narrative of Robert Adams: an American sailor, who was wrecked on the western coast of Africa, in the year 1810, was detained three years in slavery by the Arabs of the Great Desert, and resided several months in the City of Tombuctoo. With a map, notes and an appendix (Google eBook) http://books.google.com/ebooks?id=pd0KAQAAIAAJ Not sure how to add this to the article page, so, hoping someone else will do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.108.175.37 (talk) 19:15, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

I added the link to this original edition. Adams' story was already covered, and now it has sufficient links to material for further reading. Apparantly, "A Barbary Captive" was only the title to the 2005 critical edition and not to the original account at all. Thanks to your link this has now been corrected. Thanks, Pim Rijkee (talk) 13:33, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Temperature

That temperature chart is asking for a source and an access date although I'm sure that the information is probably accurate and reasonably current... SneakyWho am i (talk) 16:27, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

The picture here is broken. Rhymeless 04:15, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Looks like it was deleted at some point. If so, no help for it, gotta upload new image. Stan 05:31, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The text says the relatively coolest period is July through September, but the chart shows November through February as slightly cooler months. The two should be congruent, which one is correct? 80.79.32.43 (talk) 14:50, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I would simply add... there is a fairly good article on Timbuktu in Natural History magazine (July 2007) which states the name Timbuktu is derived from "tin" + "Buktu," or the well of Buktu, although they do state this is part of the "founding myth" of Timbuktu. In several paragraphs the origin of the city's name is thoroughly explored, including several proposed alternatives which are not included in the Wikipedia article. See etymology —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.94.4.212 (talk) 08:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

How does "nekba" become "bouctou"? (Collin237) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.203.145.82 (talk) 15:14, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

References to books should include page numbers

Citations to particular pages in a book should include page numbers - see WP:Page numbers . There are various ways of doing this. Clearly if a book is cited once one can put the page number with details in the markup between refs. However if a book is cited multiple times - with the citations to different pages - then the normal way of handling this is to put the details of the books cited at the end of the article and then to use the Harv or sfn templates in the article itself. Thanks Aa77zz (talk) 23:44, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Ibn Battuta

I've excised the paragraph about Ibn Battuta from the Legendary tales section. Ibn Battuta's Rihla played no real part in the mythical status of the town. Battuta says very little about Timbuktu and his Rihla was practically unknown in Europe until Defrémery and Sanguinetti published their translation in 1853-1858. Battuta's Rihla is the first document to mention Timbuktu and should be mentioned in the history section.

Here is what Ibn Battuta says: (taken from Levtzion and Hopkins 2000, p 299)

...then we travelled from there to the town of Tunbuktū. There are four miles between it and the Nīl. Most of its inhabitants are Masūfa, wearers of the lithām, and their governor is called Farbā Mūsā. I was present with him one day when he appointed one of the Musūfa as emir over a group. He bestowed on him a garment and a turban and trousers, all dyed, and sat him on a shield and the chief men of his tribe raised him on their heads.

In this town there is the grave of the talented poet Abū Isḥāq al-Sāḥilli of Granada, known in own country as al-Tuwayjin; also there is the grave of Sirāj al-Dīn b. Kuwayk, one of the important merchants of Alexandria.

That's it. Battuta left Timbuktu by boat. He has much more to say about Gao – which was at the time part of the Mali Empire. - Aa77zz (talk) 15:47, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Meaning/Etymology

There are two contradictory phrases regarding the origin of the name:Its name is made up of: tin which means « place » and buktu, the name of an old Malian woman is the first. Then there is this one a few paragraphs later: The place name is said to come from a Tuareg woman named Buktu who dug a well in the area where the city stands today; hence "Timbuktu", which means "Buktu's well". Which one, if either, is it?

Actually, there are at least 2 more explanations for the origin of the name Timbuktu: most of them are mentioned in the article under the section etymology. Re the "place of an old Malian woman", this was mentioned by Abd al-Sadi in his Tarikh al-Sudan (ca. 1655). Your second story ("Buktu's well") is mentioned way back in the 19^th century by explorer Heinrich Barth: but he is fairly sure the translation is wrong, as "tin", he says, has nothing to do with "well". Quite a lot has been written about Timbuktu's etymology, but there is no consensus yet. For sources on this, please check the "Etymology" section in the article. It is in need of some editing to improve readability, but the content does address your question. Cheers, Pim Rijkee (talk) 19:08, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

This is a bizarre statement: "“bouctou”, a contraction of the Arab word nekba (small dune)". Whatever the relationship between "bouctou" (presumably buktu) and "nekba" (a word I cannot find under any conceivable spelling in my Arabic dictionary), it is obviously not "contraction". I suggest that whoever contributed this sentence misunderstood his or her source. I will therefore remove it.RandomCritic (talk) 20:07, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

It's not "nekba" but nabka ("small hillock"–Wehr-Cowan Arabic Dictionary). Is there such a root nbk in Berber? The name looks like it ought to be a Berber feminine noun *t-nbuk-t borrowed into a language that did not have final consonant clusters and so added -u. On the Catalan Atlas the name is spelled Tenbuch.Hieronymus Illinensis (talk) 02:50, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Tourist numbers

A week ago I added a new section on tourism. I initially included the numbers of tourists taken from an article in L'essor. I've now rejigged the section as the number given in L'essor - 45000 tourists in 2006 - seems way too large. Also, the number of hotels (25) is much larger than that given by my other sources (Lonely Planet and the Malian government publication below). For comparison, the official 2007 figures for Djenné are 15,000 visitors with 4,200 spending the night (see ref in article to UNESCO web site). Djenné is nearer Bamako much more accessible to tourists than Timbuktu. I cannot find any official tourist numbers for Timbuktu online. The relevant government department L'Office Malien du Tourisme et de l'Hôtellerie (OMATHO) do not yet appear to publish numbers online (the Statistique section is "Under Construction"). However there is a government document available online that gives a wealth of statistics for the town including the revenue obtained from the CFA5000 a head tourist tax. The revenue was only CFA 3,062,000 in 2005 – corresponding to only 612.4 tourists - a surprisingly small number. What is certain is that the lack of security has lead to a precipitous drop in the number of tourists visiting the town. This document gives the 2008 OMATHO figures for tourists visiting Mali: 159,096 of which 135,902 came by air and 23,194 overland. Aa77zz (talk) 17:21, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Good to see the progress on this article. I have some on my hands these weeks, what are some sections you have found irregularities in and could be rewritten? Cheers, Pim Rijkee (talk) 09:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Used for Azawad history

Thanks to the thoroughness of this article's history section (which covers Gao quite a bit as well), I was able to use it to kickstart the history of Azawad. Per Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia, I'm now formally placing a notice here that I've done so.

I'd also like to request that anyone interested in Timbuktu and its history consider double-checking my work! I know a fair amount of Malian history, but am no expert, and it's quite possible that some claims for Timbuktu's history do not extend to the region as a whole. Thanks to all, Khazar2 (talk) 07:16, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

The historical buildings depicted in this article do not exist anymore : how to edit?

I think the images of all those objects (Sankore Mosque and Djinguereber Mosque) should be moved to a dedicated section. It is now misleading to include them in the summary info-boxes as those buildings do not exist anymore. What are your opinions? 77.58.245.89 (talk) 19:20, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

There needs to be some more time before this article gets edited. There are still people terrorizing the town and using pick-axes to tear down buildings. Until there are more verifiable sources and the area is secure I do not see the point. A building we believe to be destroyed could still be intact. Buildings still intact may get destroyed in a firefight later this week. 67.165.53.163 (talk) 07:21, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

What are you talking about? All the mosques are still standing. One had a door destroyed. Some tombs were destroyed, but they are not shown on any pictueres.

Manuscripts destroyed and others apparently stolen

An AP video shows the remains of manuscripts burned by rebel forces before they peacefully left the city. Apparently, some manuscripts have been saved and others were allegedly taken with them by the rebels. I have added a couple of citations to news reports on this. As reports come in, this should be up-dated with details. Kdammers (talk) 01:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

The article still states the early arson romour despite the fact that TV crews already showed that the Ahmed Baba Institite is still standing.

Why pronunciation: ˌtɪmbʌkˈtuː

The correct pronunciation is: ˌtɪmbukˈtuː, that is what they say over there. FredTC (talk) 03:41, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Period between 1737 - 1800: rulers?

This is my first time using this function, so apologies if wrong. Why is there no reference to Masina in the history of Mali, which is cited on another Wiki page. I have no idea if it existed and only came upon it today and am simply interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihadism#mediaviewer/File:Fula_jihad_states_map_general_c1830.png

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.1.116.94 (talk) 21:58, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the corrections. Re the problem with rulers between 1737 - 1800, I had difficulty finding sources specifying rulers, so I went with the Moroccan Empire and kind of forgot about it, to the point where I just copied it in the timeline. The one thing I could find about post-1737 is this: they (Pashalik) survived until the beginning of the 19th century (when apparently the Tuareg took over completely), but their power had waned and Tuareg took over periodically, with varying success. It is givenhere, p. 259. Would be nice to get this sorted out, so if someone wants to weigh in on this? Pim Rijkee (talk) 16:16, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I picked 1737 because Saad (1983, p12) wrote: "The decline of the Ruma [Arma] pashalik at Timbuktu was a long and gradual process, though it has often been said that the regime was destroyed in 1737, following a defeat of the main Ruma army at the battle of Tuwa by the Tuareg confederation of Kel Tadmekkat."

Saad p.206-9 discusses the defeat of the Arma in 1737 and their continuing influence - even when the Tuareg were in control.

When working on the Djenné article I had difficulty finding information on the town after the middle of 17th century. I suspect this is connected with the lack of good primary sources. The Tarikh al-fattash stops around 1600 while the Tarikh al-Sudan ends around 1655 (but Hunwick's translation stops at 1613). The Tedzkiret en-nisiān goes to 1750 and includes a detailed description of the Tuareg attack on Timbuktu in 1737 - the Arma were forced out of the town for a while.

(Note that the link to the Tedzkiret en-nisiān on Gallica is currently broken – and I can no longer find it on their database. I've left the link in the Timbuktu article hoping that it will reappear. Fortunately I downloaded a copy before the link disappeared. It is a primary source and in French – so not ideal for English Wikipedia.)

I have Hunwick, Boye and Hunwick, (2008) – (actually written by Boye) - mainly pretty pictures – but it has a chronology on (pp. 160-161). Here is some of it:

1612 The Arma administration of Timbuktu appoints its own Pasha and breaks away from Moroccan rule.
1737 The Tuareg occupy Timbuktu
1766 The Bambara from Segu occupy Timbuktu
1770 The Tuareg besiege Timbuktu
1810 The Kounta take control of Timbuktu
1826 Hamdallahi gain hegemony over Timbuktu
1845 Ahmadu Lobbo dies, prompting a revolt in Timbuktu. Hamdallahi blockages the city, starving it into submission.
1862 Umar Tall launches a jihad against the descendants of Ahmadu Lobbo; his forces reach Timbuktu.
1864-1880 The Kounta mobilize and defeat Umar Tall, maintaining leadership over Masina from 1864 to 1880.
1880 The Tuareg take control of Timbuktu.
1880-1892 The French gradually consolidate and extend control over a huge swathe of West African territories, which in 1892 are renamed French Sudan.
1894 The French gain control of Timbuktu but do not finally defeat the Tuareg in the northern regions until 1916.

All very complicated. It would be nice to have a second source for these dates.

Saad (1983 p. 12) says that the Hamdullahi "incorporated Timbuktu, at least from around 1825 until 1844"

Hunwick in his article in the Encyclopaedia of Islam (Vol X pp 508-509, added it to Further reading) available here says:

"Late in that century [18th], the Bambara kingdom of Segu harrassed the western reaches of the Bashalik, but could not hold any part of its territory. Similarly, the Kel Tadmekkat Tuareg harrassed Timbuktu on several occasions, most notably in 1770-1 when a siege of the town was only lifted after the intervention of ... In 1826 the rising Fulbe state of Masina under Shaykh Ahmad Lobbo took control of the city, but in 1844 the Tuareg forced them out temporarily. Two years later, having used their power to deny grain imports to Timbuktu from the inland delta region, the Fulbe regained control, but the agreement ... involving tribute, stopped short of military occupation. When the Tukulor Tidjani ... defeated the Fulbe of Masina in 1862, al-Bakka'i defended the independence of Timbuktu, and in 1864 he besieged Hamdullahi together with Fulbe forces. His clan continued to dominate the affairs of Timbuktu for a while, but by the time of the French occupation in 1893-4 they had withdrawn to the Azawad, leaving various Tuareg groups in control of the city's hinterland, and the city itself an easy prey."

which is difficult to incorporate into a timeline. Aa77zz (talk) 21:06, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I ended up checking several sources were each confirmed only part of this timeline and called it a day when I found out just what a mess it all is - although, and I can't find the link just now, the Arma seemed to stay in control even after 1737. For readability, I suggest rewriting the passage and including something along the lines of 'During the Arma administration, several sieges or occupations took place by x, y and z'. It would still be accurate, but would not burden the reader with 'trivialities' we are having a hard time to comprehend ourselves. The timeline for the Arma could be extended till 1810, with an asterisk to the timeline caption that gives A) a very concise statement on the weakness of the state or B) simply states 'see intlink #appropriate section|text /intlink'. Pim Rijkee (talk) 19:26, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Split

Would anyone object to the creation of a new article, History of Timbuktu, based on content in the history section of the main Timbuktu article? M2545 (talk) 13:34, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

At the moment the article isn't very large and I don't think it needs to be split. Ideally, the article should include more about the present town but I've struggled to finding suitable sources. Aa77zz (talk) 18:04, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

As stated in the introduction to Timbuktu: Its "mysterious ... reputation overshadows the town itself in modern times, to the point where it is best known in Western culture as an expression for a distant or outlandish place." I think a separate article about its storied past would place focus on the present era as described in the main article. M2545 (talk) 20:16, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Certainly, the article could do with splitting. The history is getting to the point where it is overshadowing the rest of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.64.105.209 (talk) 16:25, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Timbuktu is one of the world's most important cities & societies, and should have *several* separate articles on different topics regarding its history. CircleAdrian (talk) 23:30, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

M2545, I endorse a history split. The current article size is 111k. WP:Splitting suggests 60k as "probably" split and 100k as "Almost certainly". History is a worthy topic of its own, and I think both sides of the split will benefit from improved focus on current or history. Alsee (talk) 09:47, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Here is a Draft:History of Timbuktu, copied word-for-word from Timbuktu#History. Please edit the draft! and then someone can move it to the main namespace. -- M2545 (talk) 12:49, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

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Name

What? This place is called Timbuktu! I have never, ever heard it called Tombouctou in English. Never. That is the French name. Chameleon 23:25, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I have some 1930s encyclopaedias that say or Tombouctou, but that's about it. Rhymeless 02:38, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

removed blog links

I removed a couple of links to the same travel blog about a trip to Timbuktu. The Web is loaded with travel logs - a quick Google search finds a bunch about Timbuktu. We could fill up every geographic article with similar external links, until the article itself was swamped, so we need to be cautious. Wikipedia isn't a link farm, and this article already has an awful lot of external links. - DavidWBrooks 13:48, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Jews

According to The Jews of Timbuktu, in 1492 Mohamed Askia forced the Timbuktu Jews to convert to Islam, and Rabbi Mordechai Abi Serour came from Morocco in 1860 to be a trader in Timbuktu. --Error 00:20, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)