Talk:The Legend of Vox Machina

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Draft development notes[edit]

Character notability[edit]

Above is the cast list announced on January 20. Per MOS:TVCAST (Remember to follow the notability guidelines when creating a cast list: not every fictional character ever created deserves to be listed), I removed the names in bold. Essentially, the unnamed characters along with new characters where at this point we don't know if they're notable or not (ie. Sir Fince & Bryn). Let me know if you think this list should be trimmed more. Sariel Xilo (talk) 22:22, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Totally missed that Sir Fince is on the Council of Emon so I restored that character. Also, added a new source. Sariel Xilo (talk) 23:45, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fince[edit]

@Little pob, Plexust, ERAGON, and TheHumanIntersect: Pinging some recent editors - thoughts on if Sir Fince is notable enough to keep in the character list? He gets killed off quickly and the first 2 episodes don't spend a lot of time with him (outside of him being a red herring). Sariel Xilo (talk) 22:09, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I barely even remember him. :o BOZ (talk) 22:41, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(This is by no means a scientific method, but is usually an OK rule of thumb.) Currently there are 8 articles for Sir Fince critical role showing on Google when you limit to news articles. Compare that to 694 for General Krieg critical role. A search for Gilmore critical role limited to the last month has 69 hits. MOS:TVCAST says in part "Remember to follow the notability guidelines when creating a cast list: not every fictional character ever created deserves to be listed..." as such, as much as I like Tony Hale as an actor, we should probably remove Sir Fince from the guest list. Little pob (talk) 12:41, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Removed the character from the article & bolded the character's name above. Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:18, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, Sir Fince, needs to stay credited because of his significance of the show's lore. It might had been for a short time, but he's still significant to the two-part pilot. Plus, Krieg had short screen-time as well and he remains noted. And finally, it's a little odd to not include all the named members of the Council. So once again, let Fince stay noted, based on the show's lore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.92.185.180 (talk) 22:45, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Krieg is the villain of the first arc while Fince is a red herring who gets considerable less screen time. Per Little pob's point, Fince doesn't have as many hits on google. This isn't a Fandom wiki where every bit of minutiae is included; we need to follow MOS:TVCAST which states not every fictional character ever created deserves to be listed. Sariel Xilo (talk) 23:02, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A little moronic if you ask me, but I understand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.92.185.180 (talk) 23:20, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

SR have a brief article around the events of the first two eps.[1] I can't find any more discussion of Fince in the RS currently (other than the cast list articles). Is this single source enough to mention Fince/Hale as a guest? Little pob (talk) 13:23, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Other characters[edit]

@BOZ and Little pob: Similarly, Desmond (coachman who gets hand shot by Percy) might also be minor depending on if he reappears or not in further episodes. Sariel Xilo (talk) 20:29, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We could trim the list down to the prominent guest characters from the three episodes aired so far: Lady Kima, Sovereign Uriel, General Krieg, Lady Allura Vysoren, Delilah Briarwood, and Shaun Gilmore. Obviously if the reliable sources talk about the characters—rather than some of the casting coverage we've had so far—we should leave that character in. Otherwise we can add them back from the list above if they become prominent within the show. Little pob (talk) 09:00, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Done I've put the characters who haven't appeared yet into a note so it'll be easy to add them back in as needed. A lot of the character roundups I've seen have more been be like "who this character was in campaign 1" & not about who the character is in the animated show. Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:10, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cyberlink420: I put a couple of characters back into the hidden note because I'm not sure how notable they will be (Professor Anders, Duke Vedmire) or they haven't appeared yet (Everlight). I removed Stonefell because he died kind of quickly like Fince (see above). I'm also on the fence for Archibald Desnay but left him in the list. Also, for both you & @Little pob: thoughts on removing both Kima & Jarrett? I know they're both fan favorites from the original campaign but the show hasn't really spent much time with them (Kima makes a comment or 2 in E1/2 but I don't recall if they even say her name on screen, Jarrett helps in the fight in E4). They might become important after the Briarwood arc but right now they don't feel notable from just their time in the animated show. Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:20, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Don't mind the removal of Stonefell, I suppose, but I'm of the opinion that any character who appears in three or more episodes like Anders and Kima should stay on the list. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 18:55, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
With the arc ongoing and those side-characters still alive; I've no preference either way. Little pob (talk) 16:33, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the Head Cleric and Bryn have both appeared in three episodes now, but they're still very minor characters, so I'm not sure they're notable. What do you think? TheHumanIntersect (talk) 02:52, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've not seen this week's batch of episodes yet; but no issues with that suggestion here. Just in case they resurface in a major plot point during the last 3 episodes, rather than deleting, please move them to the hidden/commented-out list for now. For what it's worth; I'm not planning on adding to or trimming the guest list myself until the end of the run. That said, unless it otherwise ignores talk consensus or WP:PAG (for example WP:Spoilers), I'm not going to revert a good faith edit over the course of the season either. Little pob (talk) 11:47, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Post season discussion[edit]

Now that the season is over, I've moved everyone that appears in three or more episodes to "Recurring", with a "Guest" section for those who appear in only one or two. Feel free to change the minimum episode count for "Recurring" and/or strike names as you see fit. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 06:01, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks; but MOS:TVCAST states (in part) "A cast member or character appearing in more than one episode, or in two or more consecutive episodes, does not necessarily mean that character has a "recurring" role. An actor or character may simply have a guest role across several episodes, rather than a recurring story arc throughout the show. If reliable sources cannot adequately distinguish between recurring or guest roles, then local consensus should determine their status." The pre-season sources were just saying "guest star"; are more recent ones using "recurring"? If not, we should have the local consensus discussion; but need to reflect sources until something is agreed upon. As such, and keeping in mind WP:STATUSQUO, I have merged back to a single guest list and commented out Fince and Desmond – as consensus was they were not notable enough to mention. Little pob (talk) 13:05, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I also haven't seen any coverage referring to "recurring" characters. I don't think either Fince or Desmond are notable enough, however, I think Krieg/Brimscythe is (especially given the upcoming Chroma Conclave arc). There's also been a bit of coverage on the character (ComicBook, Mashable, & Distractify). One thing to keep in mind is we could do a list of characters (ex. List of She-Ra: Princess of Power and She-Ra and the Princesses of Power characters & List of Yu-Gi-Oh! characters). I've started to see coverage just on individual main characters (ex. Polygon on Keyleth & CBR on Percy) which could support a standalone list. Although it might make more sense to hold off for now & wait for the season 2 additions. Thoughts? Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:43, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Draft list started here: Draft:List of The Legend of Vox Machina cast members. Due to some main cast members having more than one role, I went with a "cast members" title rather than "characters". As the inclusion of Fince has been the contentious issue, I've started with the guests. Currently ordered per above list; but the default order should probably be to credits order (though the list is also "sortable"). Getting the article out of draft is probably not a priority until some S2 announcements are made, but as long as it sees some edits every so often it should stop it from being deleted as a stagnant draft. Suggestions and other discussions can be had over at the draft's talk. Little pob (talk) 13:00, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

An IP editor added Anjali as head cleric. Was going to remove; but found brief mention of her TLoVM work on a source discussing her MS Marvel role. As such replaced the questionable IMDB reference, and restored list to "by appearance". I've a low threshold for her inclusion being removed again. Little pob (talk) 12:42, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cast list order[edit]

Once the first episodes are available, and assuming they differ; should the cast list reflect the series' credit order, or should we keep the order from C1E1? Currently, I'm in favour of switching to the animation's credit order rather than the campaign's credit order once the 26th rolls round; but definitely open to opposing arguments (esp if there is precedent at another article). Little pob (talk) 16:13, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Most definitely switch it to the order that is in the animated show. Similarly, the guest cast is currently in the order that was in the press release but I assume we'll adjust it to order of appearance. Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:12, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Per the early access VOD, the title sequence (also seen here) doesn't list the cast. Episode 1 & 2 end credits are:
Main
  • Laura Bailey
  • Taliesin Jaffe
  • Ashley Johnson
  • Matthew Mercer
  • Liam O'Brien
  • Marisha Ray
  • Sam Riegel
  • Travis Willingham
Guest (named characters only)
  • Stephanie Beatriz
  • Tony Hall
  • Khary Payton
  • David Tennant
  • Indira Varma
  • Grey Griffin (E2 end credit)
  • Sunil Malhotra (E2 end credit)
  • Max Mittelman (E2 end credit)
Looks like both main & guest are just listed alphabetically (I put the E2 guests at the bottom since Wikipedia prefers order of appearance). Sariel Xilo (talk) 20:56, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Little pob: Thoughts on switching the cast list over to a character list style (like Invincible (TV series)#Characters)? Sariel Xilo (talk) 23:15, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Sariel Xilo: Sounds good. I'll sandbox something. Little pob (talk) 14:06, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Rather than sandbox; I just expanded the main character descriptions in situ. As there are some changes from how events played out in the Campaign (for example, how Pike's pendent became cracked), the statements only reflect what has been presented within the first 3 episodes. Also, with Matt playing both Sylas and Trinket, I've leant more into what was done over at Fringe (TV series). See Family Guy for a possible way of delivering in prose. Little pob (talk) 17:47, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That works! Fringe is a good example for the actor playing multiple characters. I went ahead and filled in some of the guest character info. Sariel Xilo (talk) 19:12, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Character organization[edit]

I personally feel the casting list should be separated by group and/or to avoid confusion. Yes Matthew Mercer is part of the main cast through his various voices, but as it stands it doesn't make since for Silas Briarwood to be in the main cast as Vox Machina. Therefore, the list that'll be presented is correct and easier to grasp. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Editmaster4 (talk • contribs) 18:08, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Editmaster4: We don't get to determine who should be in the "main" section or not; that it determined by the show's producers. Per MOS:TVCAST: The cast listing should be ordered according to the original broadcast credits, with new cast members being added to the end of the list. [...] Please keep in mind that though "main" cast members are determined by the series producers (not by popularity, screen time, or episode count) and generally have a set order in the credits, recurring and guest stars will not necessarily be credited in the same order in each episode in which they appear, so their place in the list should be based on the order of credits in the first episode that they appear. The kind of organization you've suggested would work in a standalone list article for the characters. You could request Little pob's draft (Draft:List of The Legend of Vox Machina cast members; see discussion above) to be undeleted and work towards getting that ready for mainspace. Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:46, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Then lets make the stand-alone list article, so that everything and everyone will be in it's proper accordance. Editmaster4 (talk) 19:17, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And for the record, the rule above is ridiculous and moronic. Editmaster4 (talk) 19:19, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So noted! BOZ (talk) 19:22, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Editmaster4: Little pob is a on a long break but it should be relatively easy to get their draft restored (Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion/G13) & use that as your starting point. You could also create a character list article which covers both the animated show & the original actual play show (see List of She-Ra: Princess of Power and She-Ra and the Princesses of Power characters & List of The Umbrella Academy characters). Sariel Xilo (talk) 19:37, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Spoilers in Cast section[edit]

There are spoilers in the cast list which divulge significant plot points/secret identities of characters to someone new to the story. I believe these points should be moved to the Plot section of the article. Plexust (talk) 20:29, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:SPOILERS, Wikipedia articles don't censor that type of info. In the above Talk section, Fringe (TV series)#Cast and characters was suggested as the model to use. You can see in that example all sorts of spoilers (character deaths, parallel universe shenanigans, etc). Sariel Xilo (talk) 20:40, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@TheHumanIntersect: Per the two campaign sourcebooks (Critical Role: Tal'Dorei Campaign Setting), Tal'Dorei doesn't become a republic until after the Chroma Conclave (and the death of Sovereign Uriel). Did I miss something in the first 3 episodes which referred to Tal'Dorei as a republic? Otherwise, I think it should be the Tal'Dorei Empire. Thanks! Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:44, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My bad, you're right. It's been a few years since I watched campaign 1, so I forgot about that. Reverted it. TheHumanIntersect (talk) 18:50, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No worries! I only noticed because I just got the updated campaign book in the mail. We're also in that weird bit where we don't know how much the adaptation will be different from campaign 1 lore wise. Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:53, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Upcoming episodes[edit]

@Alex 21: Can you link to the specific consensus you're referencing? That's not stated on MOS:TV (MOS:TVEPISODE, MOS:TVUPCOMING, etc). Thanks! Sariel Xilo (talk) 21:43, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Standard practice. We do not include a row if the only information available is a date. Again, Wikipedia is not a WP:TVGUIDE or a WP:INDISCRIMINATE collection of information. If you disagree with this, you're more than welcome to take it to WT:MOSTV or WT:TV. -- Alex_21 TALK 22:41, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Episode Listing[edit]

I know that some users are concerned about the NumPart formatting, but honestly, if the episode is a two-parter, it should have its table all together, not separately, unless if the plots of the individual parts are too long, but follow MOS:TVPLOT. BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 18:30, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The plot summaries of each part are too long to be combined, in my opinion. MOS:TVPLOT doesn't have specific guidelines for two-parters but each part is already right at the 200 word limit for episodes, so combining them makes the section harder to read, especially on mobile. TheHumanIntersect (talk) 18:38, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Basically, what TheHumanIntersect said - the combo plot section is harder to read. There isn't a specific policy that states it should be formatted that way so the table should retain the original formatting (see MOS:VAR). Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:46, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Residuum[edit]

As there is no guarantee that a reader will have seen the series, should we add a footnote to the episode 10 summary defining residuum in the context of the show? I'm reluctant to just wikilink to the Residuum (geology) article. It is overly technical and only talks about a natural process, whereas Matt's residuum is created by artificially weathering rocks with acid. An alternative is to, perhaps, drop mention of residuum and just say refining room. Thoughts? Little pob (talk) 13:15, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are a couple of moments in earlier episodes (E5 Delilah & Sylas discuss it, E7 Classroom flashback that explains more, etc) that establish what residuum is. The E7 summary was only 144 words so I added a sentence there to explain what it is (brings the summary to 193 words). It might need a copy-edit to make it more clear & perhaps other episode summaries should mention it when it comes up (the same way Percy's gun barrel is mentioned because that's all foreshadowing). Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:11, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Little pob: Not sure how to link to an individual entry in a table, but I've added it to List of fictional elements, materials, isotopes and subatomic particles. Sariel Xilo (talk) 19:29, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Sariel Xilo: Nice find on that table. Have added an anchor to the residuum row, and linked from the E7 mention. If you ever need to repeat this process for another table, see: Help:Table#Section_link_or_map_link_to_a_row_anchor. Little pob (talk) 21:03, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kickstarter "exec producers"[edit]

An IP editor added Brandon William Thomas as an exec producer back in January.[2] A (presumably different) IP editor is currently trying to edit war it back out. I was about to start an WP:AIV to get page protection for a week or two, when I thought I'd best check what's going on. I noticed that, whilst Brandon William Thomas is listed as a "Crowd Funding Executive Producer", so are 8 other Kickstarter backers—whose names we don't list. Mystery Science Theatre 3000 doesn't seem to list their Kickstarter exec producers. I'm tempted to follow suit and remove Brandon William Thomas' credit rather than add the missing 8 to the already long infobox. Thoughts? Little pob (talk) 14:40, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My bad then for trying to keep it, it had been there since before I even started watching this page so I assumed the IP editor was vandalizing. I'd say remove it. TheHumanIntersect (talk) 19:06, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've reverted the re-addition of Brandon William Thomas to the infobox.[3] Given local consensus was only 2, I've posted over at the infobox to confirm whether the intent is for it to display paid-for EP credits or not: Template talk:Infobox television#Crowd source Exec Prod credits Little pob (talk) 09:22, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please see response confirming it is not the intent of the infobox to include executive producer credits out side of the industry standard of that position. If people want to mention the crowd funding exec producers it'll have to be in the prose; but it should state all of them (not just one), and be notable rather than just for the sake of WP:TRIVIA. Little pob (talk) 10:41, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Spinoff?[edit]

I'm wondering if the upcoming Mighty Nein animated series is technically a spinoff of TLOVM and should be mentioned as such on this page. What do you think? Zuko Halliwell (talk) 17:19, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we can say it is a spinoff until they announce that the animated shows are all in the same timeline (a la Marvel Comics vs MCU). Right now the sources are simply calling it an adaptation of Critical Role (campaign two). Side note: Draft:Mighty Nein was started if anyone is interested in developing that (or adding it to their watchlists) & there is a list of all CR sub-articles at Talk:Critical Role#Subarticle list. Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Metapigeon[edit]

For the record, Critical Role Productions has been credited as "Metapigeon" since the first season, at the end of every episode. I saw on Draft:Mighty Nein that Metapigeon was used and redirects to Critical Role Productions, so this page should probably be updated as well. TheHumanIntersect (talk) 17:52, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There was no objections after a week so  Done. Little pob (talk) 17:27, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Animation services[edit]

Wanted to note here for posterity that in the credits of 2x07 & 2x08, Red Dog Culture House is credited for animation services instead of Production Reve; Reve returned in 2x09. TheHumanIntersect (talk) 01:53, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The D&D links[edit]

With TLOVM deliberately avoiding using D&D terms; I wondering if we should remove the wikilinks to D&D articles for the likes of characters' race, class, the dragons of the Chroma Conclave etc?

Additionally, whether we do or not remove the wikilinks, are there sources saying CR are being careful to avoid using Wizards' intellectual property in the show that we can reflect? Little pob (talk) 13:22, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Strikes section[edit]

@Sariel Xilo: It was not my intention to imply anything; though may have accidentally allowed readers to be able to infer. In hindsight; it's too soon to know if a whole subsection is warranted, but can/should any of it be rescued for use? (Either here or at CRP.)

For the sake of clarity, here's what my thought process was:

    • Writers' strike para: Unlike the SAG-AFTRA statement; there has been no statement about the WGA strike from CRP - it's difficult to prove the lack of something. <aside>Have since found a potential source should we chose to mention the WGA strike somewhere[4]</aside>
    • Actors' strike para: My objective here was to state that there's been nothing from CRP/Amazon Studios about the impact of the SAG-AFTRA strike on the animated show, but in the context that there has been a statement about the actual play shows. Again difficult to prove a negative; but, given I rarely edit media articles outside of CR, if there is a consensus to wait until there is an official announcement I'll hold my hands up to the faux pas
    • Titmouse/TAG para: Seemed relevant with respect to the WGA strike (but probably undue in retrospect)

Whilst I respect that Wikipedia is not here to report the news; there is definitely interest in the community as to whether there is a delay on the animated shows due to the strikes. Little pob (talk) 12:53, 19 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This ComicBook article breaks it down the most by including a list of contracts that are not struck and states that "animated projects like The Legend of Vox Machina are not impacted by the strike as they fall under a different agreement than what SAG-AFTRA is striking against". We could maybe include a few sentences (such as After the 2023 SAG-AFTRA strike began in July 2023, Critical Role Productions released a statement of support of the strike. They also stated, "our release schedule is not impacted by the strike, but we will continue to evaluate and take the necessary steps should it be impacted in the future". ComicBook.com noted that the contract type for Legend of Vox Machina is not a struck contract per SAG-AFTRA.) in this article but I have concerns much more would be extrapolation.
It appears that Legend of Vox Machina should not be impacted by either strike as the writing for show is under an IATSE contract based on the show's credits (see S2E1 at 23:29 for the IATSE logo but I don't have a secondary source stating that) and the SAG-AFTRA strike covers animated films but not television (the ComicBook article highlights that "New Media Animation Agreements" are not impacted & the SAG database states LoV S3 is under a "High Budget New Media Animation Agreement" contract). CR's statement on the strike was added to Critical Role Productions back in July so we're good there. Also, pinging TenTonParasol because this came up in Draft:Mighty Nein (that show is under a "High Budget New Media Animation Agreement" per the SAG database like LoV but I don't have a secondary source saying it isn't impacted). Sariel Xilo (talk) 20:52, 19 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WRT After the 2023 SAG-AFTRA strike began in July 2023, Critical Role Productions released a statement of support of the strike. They also stated, "our release schedule is not impacted by the strike, but we will continue to evaluate and take the necessary steps should it be impacted in the future". ComicBook.com noted that the contract type for Legend of Vox Machina is not a struck contract per SAG-AFTRA. With this wording I'd wikilink struck to strike action; but do we need to mention the studio's press release if covering here (at LoV)? If I recall correctly, it was referencing the actual play shows?
Given @TenTonParasol's objections per weight, and then onus, for inclusion about the strikes at the MN draft; perhaps we make any mention as barebones as possible: The show was renewed for a third season before the season two premiere. ComicBook.com reports production The Legend of Vox Machina's third season would be unaffected by the 2023 SAG-AFTRA strike. Riegel has been quoted that the show could run for "possibly five seasons". (bold = text added to the existing content)
Also want to note that I withdraw the suggestion of using bamsmackpow.com as a potential source. Although not listed on the WP:RS/P list; it's part of FanSided, which is stated to be a collection of 300 blog sites in our own article of the parent company. Little pob (talk) 12:55, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like the statement that it is unaffected means that we shouldn't mention it or the statement of support for the strike at all. It's, in the encyclopedic view of things, a non-factor, so there isn't really any point in including it. Thinking of it in the long view, in five years, ten years from now—is it going to be an important fact to note? We don't need to include every fact or news item in the article, only the ones of relevance. And if the strike has no impact bc this was never struck, then there is no relevance to mentioning it wrt the production history of the show here. This is better covered at List of productions impacted by the 2023 SAG-AFTRA strike, which is the article that exists for tracking that. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 17:23, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I feel it's important we include now, but accept it will become irrelevant once the shows' seasons have aired (assuming no further coverage). For that reason I am dropping the stick. Little pob (talk) 13:45, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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