Talk:The Expanse (TV series)

Rocinante

So there's been some edits around Rocinante in the show and how it should link. While I'm very aware in the books the name Rocinante is deliberately Don Quixote's horse and all the references to that literature is through the books. Yes it also provides a lot of allusion in the show as well. However while in the book the Roci is named deliberate after the horse, that's not the explanation in the show. Yes the show mentions it means work horse and Holden suggests it initially, but it being any connection to Don Quixote is not mentioned. (In fact Don Quixote is never actually mentioned in the show, it's always a behind the scenes writers influence on the show rather than a conscious character item like in the books.) Remember here we're dealing with the TV show and what is in the show. The writers have named it after the horse, but the show's characters have not, and that's what's relevant here. Saying they name the ship Rocinante after Don Quixote's horse is false, they name it purely as a suggested name and then as a woman Amos once knew who was good to him. The characters don't name it after Don Quixote. The writers do, the characters don't and it's the characters and the show that is important here. We can always have some wording around it talking about the Don Quixote stuff and all the references in the show, but to claim the characters name the ship after Quixote's horse is clearly wrong. Canterbury Tail talk 13:32, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Been over a month. Due to no response, and WP:SILENCE, there is no disagreeing opinion. Remove the snippet saying Rocinante (in the TV series) is named after Don Quixote's horse, which is not supported by anything in the show. Canterbury Tail talk 12:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't have strong feelings about restoring it[1] but I wouldn't say it was "clearly wrong" either to say the ship is named after Don Quixote 's horse. Don Quixote was mentioned earlier in the show, in the season 1 episode when Avasarala visits Holden's mother Elise, and she does mention that Holden read Don Quixote as a boy, and she's not sure he understood it entirely. In the episode where they pick the ships name Amos jumps in and explains the name literally means "workhorse" in Spanish before Holden is finished. I do think that the name was explained directly elsewhere in the series but I can't recall exactly. (I think maybe Fred Johnson said something about Don Quixote in response to learning the ship's name, but I don't recall exactly.) Maybe I'll remember to check for it of it when I rewatch the series in December before season 5, and revisit this discussion then. -- 109.79.168.179 (talk) 02:00, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

I guess I missed this thread, but I would NOT be in favor of tying the ship's name to Don Quixote. I always thought the ship was named after the spaceship in the Rush song Cygnus X-1. So unless we have a firm from the show, the title of the ship in The Expanse could be a nod to either Don Quixote, Rush, or John Steinbeck (who named his camper truck Rocinante). Ckruschke (talk) 14:16, 22 September 2020 (UTC)Ckruschke

Both the TV show and the books clearly reference Don Quixote. Those other uses of Rocinante are interesting too and it is of course possible Abraham and Franck were also making a metareference to Rush or Steinbeck, but I haven't seen any indication of that in the books or in the various interviews with the authors I've read or watched. If you have any reference that even mention the writers being fans of Rush or anything like that it would be nice to see, and it would be cool if the reference was multilayered.

Even if the authors haven't said it explicitly various other sources have. FWIW this very long and detailed article about the Expanse books from Barnes and Noble links the word Rocinante directly to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocinante ... an article from screenrant says "The name "Rocinante" derives from Cervantes' 17th century literary classic, Don Quixote, in which Rocinante was the lead character's horse." ... an article from Inverse.com says the Rocinante. (Which is named for Don Quixote’s horse.) etc. -- 109.79.174.193 (talk) 01:24, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

What do you know, seek and you shall find, in a comment on Daniel Abrahams site Ty Franck said "I admit to being a big Rush fan." but he doesn't go into any more detail. So it would seem to be a reference with layers to it. -- 109.79.174.193 (talk) 01:33, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't believe there's any question that it's named after the horse in the books, I believe it's clearly stated in the books. However in the show there is nothing inside the show to indicate that Don Quixote is where the name comes from. It doesn't form any part of the scenes where they're discussing what the name should be or what its called. And yes there are Don Quixote references in the show, but the point is the show doesn't say it's named after his horse and there's no in show evidence that's the case. Just because the book is explicit doesn't support the show. Canterbury Tail talk 15:08, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Canterbury Tail "there is nothing inside the show to indicate that Don Quixote is where the name comes from", while I think the indirect references in the show are already enough, I also think there does not even need to be the kind of direct reference within the show you are saying there should be. Due to the way Wikipedia is based on what the sources it is enough even that secondary sources[2][3][4] say the ship's name Rocinante comes from Don Quixotes horse. (On a general point about studying or analyzing any story or cultural work, the intent of the author only goes so far, and can even be contradicted. In some ways that supports what Canterbury Tail is saying, because the intention of the book and the intention of the show could be interpreted differently so it is import to give both consideration.)

For now I'm politely disagreeing, I'm not (yet) fighting to put the wikilink back in the article though. -- 109.79.177.141 (talk) 15:38, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Now that we seem to be getting reliable sources it's different, we can put it in sourced. Wasn't sourced previously, or was only sourced about the books. However some of those links are about the show and therefore would be relevant sources. Canterbury Tail talk 15:53, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

In the Ty and that Guy podcast, Ty Frank discussed the name Rocinante for a few minutes and noted that the characters are indirectly "taking it from the same place which is the book Don Quixote" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGbvJOAqiUA&t=2610s (that's at the 43 minute 30 mark, the question starts from about 39:30. It is available from various podcast sources but the Youtube version link includes a transcript which I find more useful than any other source, and if I get the URL formatting right it should jump to the correct time in the video too.) -- 109.78.198.162 (talk) 23:40, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, CT completely misunderstands how allusion works. It'd be a reference to Don Quixote whether it were ever explicitly acknowledged in universe or not. Any additional reference to poorly known Rush songs would need specific sourcing (more than is currently included here) but cornerstones of Western civ like DQ, Shakespeare, or Greek mythology, no. That said, glad there are explicit secondary sources to firm up the connection and keep everyone xush. — LlywelynII 02:56, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Season 4 summary

I have concerns that the season 4 summary is misleading, or at least it says too much for a short logline meant to introduce the season. People who have read the books may have a different perspective from viewers of the television show and have given away too much information here.

The sentence "Efforts to terraform Mars begin to wane as ready made habitable worlds are now available" is getting ahead of where the series is at. The Season 4 Mars subplot is all about Bobbie, the problem of demobilization, the high unemployment rate and the difficulty in trying to integrate into civilian life, and her falling in with a gang of criminals. The implications, the subtext and ultimately the threat to the whole Martian way of life are only gradually revealed. Only later in we do get Esai talking about getting his family out, and Bobbie gradually realizing that the whole Martian way of life is threatened, by the prospect of habitable words.

I'm not sure how best to rephrase it but I think there's too much detail (or the wrong details) in that summary. -- 109.79.76.103 (talk) 14:58, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Different strokes, but "efforts to terraform Mars wane" is explicitly stated in universe as part of why there's a high unemployment rate and the excess military hardware is being mothballed. It's not just a peace dividend — LlywelynII 02:56, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Missing info: Cas Anvar

Very patently, the sudden and TV specific death of Cas's character is associated with the accusations against him. We have a pretty tight BLP policy but there are tons of sources about the issue that could be used for the accusations and the response, if not any phrasing that asserts their accuracy pending a court case. — LlywelynII 02:56, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Missing info: Origin

Obviously the series came most directly from the books and the comments here from Holden's original player and D. Abraham's confirmation in that comment thread and later on Reddit are too troublesome to work into RS, but readers would still be interested in knowing that the setting began as a MMO idea worked into a D20 Future tabletop RPG setting whose players had a direct influence on the course of the books and series (including Holden's paladin complex and Shed's early disappearance) while differing in other respects (lesbian Naomi and Holden pining after Gunny). Similarly, da Belta lang started out as players goofing around before getting worked up into a full conlang for the series. — LlywelynII 02:56, 10 September 2022 (UTC)