Talk:The Dead (Joyce short story)

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Plot[edit]

The plot summary for this doesn't seem very neutral; many of the statements seem (in my humble opinion) to be very hostile towards the character of Gabriel. This should probably be revised from a particular interpretation to a simple factual summary. Any discussion of possible symbolism or psychoanalysis of the main character should be supplemented by citations, as they should serve only to inform about various interpretations of the text in the academic (or internet) community rather than to advance one as being "correct". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.61.64.113 (talk) 20:33, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The plot summary needs to be re-done. Gabriel is well-liked by the other characters (like his aunts) and that Miss Ivors runs off because Gabriel "hurt" her is an interpretation and in fact a dubious one (she gets by far the best of their encounter). The summary leaves out the most significant event in the story before the conclusion, Gabriel's speech, when Gabriel is at his best. The summary should reflect--objectively--that our attitude about Gabriel is meant to be uncertain.99.37.200.255 (talk) 02:42, 20 February 2012 (UTC)kbrewer36[reply]

Ermmmh, not-so-minor plot point, Miss Ivors rushes off before Gabriel's speech, not after it. The writer of the original article clearly does not know the content of the story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.169.40.9 (talk) 12:41, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Dead: I found any analysis of the plot very lacking. Quite simply, The Dead is the last story of Dubliners, and the longest one in it. In itself, I think, and I am no scholar on this but as a casual reader, it serves as a conclusion to the work itself, a work in which the author has been writing about everyday paralysis in Dublin where people do not make the most of the present nor the possibilities of the future but are frozen in time and their own circumstances of what other people in their closed-off worlds believe life should be. More briefly, everyone goes about doing what they think is expected of them, relinquishing any possibility for a better, more fulfilled personal journey through time, never dreaming of what could be. In The Dead, to me, and again I am no scholar on this, The Dead is about the living - all of them at the party doing what others decide for them and not what they might want. Indeed, they are not even aware of their missed opportunities except for Gabriel's wife who is reminded of her lost love in youth. Here, she overdramatizes it but, literally, it is all she has in life that enables her to feel anything at all in this paralyzing environment. It awakens something in her husband who realizes that there is nothing in his own life that comes close to experiencing any emotions like that. He sees her in a new light, anew, because through these emotions she comes alive while he is dead to her. So, to me, The Dead is about the living who might as well be dead. Most of the conversation seems to revolve around this and it is a dull, boring and stellifying existence that Elliot's laments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.8.219 (talk) 11:22, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Popular Culture: Father Ted[edit]

In the closing scene of the first series of Father Ted ("Grant Unto Him Eternal Rest"), the "boys" keep vigil on Father Jack's coffin. As it snows everywhere outside, the narrative sounds suspiciously like a parody of the end of Joyce's "The Dead." Then like Tim Finnegan, Father Jack arises, resurrected from the dead!!! Is this coincidence? or maybe a little in-joke???--PeadarMaguidhir (talk) 07:40, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm surprised at how awful this article is...I'm going to make an effort to better it in the next two months sometime. It is seriously terrible.--Sauceyboy (talk) 09:08, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality?[edit]

“Widely considered to be one of the greatest short stories in the English language” 75.166.75.67 (talk) 02:05, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there was a problem with neutrality here. I've never seen a serious commentator challenge that status. In that sense, the claim is no more contentious than saying that Hamlet is “widely considered to be one of the greatest plays in the English language” . With citations, one might even get away with 'Has been widely claimed to be the single greatest short story in the English language'. However a citation or two (not too difficult to find) would strengthen the assertion. I'll look something out when I have time, and replace that description. Liamcalling (talk) 00:31, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Plot Summary[edit]

Seeing as this is a plot summary of the short story, this section shouldn't cover any material regarding the film version. Daruqe (talk) 04:14, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Merge[edit]

Ancient discussion closed. Drmies (talk) 01:57, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The article Michael Bodkin would appear to fail notability guidelines for a stand-alone article. I propose that relevant content from it be merged here. RashersTierney (talk) 12:55, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support merger of Michael Bodkin and Michael Feeney (schoolteacher) to this article. A paragraph about the two men who served as models for Michael Furey would be an interesting addition to this article, and neither man is notable on his own merits. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 23:50, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support merging them; they don't appear to have any notability outside of the biographical connection to Mr Joyce; The information is most useful in The Dead article. Therea re already numerous articles which deal with the stories, the information is more useful when collected.--Ktlynch (talk) 20:18, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support - neither is notable in his own right. -- Beardo (talk) 17:47, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support Woz2 (talk) 22:26, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Gabriel Conroy[edit]

Gabriel Conroy, who is the main character in the short story “The Dead” by James Joyce tends to often be associated with Joyce himself, (246, Ellmann). Throughout the story Gabriel is partly characterized by his seemingly awkward relationships with women including the maid, Lily, who Gabriel awkwardly extends a holiday tip to. Another portion of the short story is focused on Gabriel’s debate with Molly Ivers, the Irish nationalist. This conversation with Molly Ivers is a point of interest in the short story, which Ellmann acknowledges in his book James Joyce: “The Backgrounds of ‘The Dead,’” saying “he knows such a defense would be pretentious and only musters up the remark that he is sick of his own country, But he issue is far form settled for him,” (Ellmann, 245).

Gabriel Conroy is often compared to Joyce himself as Ellmann acknowledges in “The Backgrounds of the Dead.” There are two aspects in which this can be directly seen, which Richard Ellmann speaks about in this chapter. The first is Gabriel’s complicated relationship with his homeland of Dublin, Ireland. Which, as previously mentioned, comes out in his conversation with Molly Ivers. The second connection to Joyce himself is the mirrored relationship between Gabriel and his wife and Joyce and his wife. There are several times in which Gabriel’s experience is in line with Joyce’s experience, one of which is the letter Gabriel recalls giving to his wife early on in their relationship which states “Why is it that words like these seem to me so dull and cold? Is it because there is no word tender enough to be your name?” (Joyce, The Dead). As Ellamann states these words are taken almost directly from a letter which Joyce write to his wife, (Ellmann. 246).

Works cited

^[1]

Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). Ellmann, Richard. "The Backgrounds of 'The Dead'" James Joyce. United States of America: Oxford UP, 1959. 243-254. Print.

Kelseycaminiti (talk) 21:27, 16 February 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelseycaminiti (talk • contribs) 21:09, 16 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Ellman, Richard (1982). James Joyce. New York: Oxford University Press. p. 243-253. ISBN 0-19-503103-2. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:The Dead (Joyce short story)/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Agree with other comment about the neutrality. Gabriel is portrayed in a bias manner.

Last edited at 14:39, 3 October 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 08:05, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Page move?[edit]

This page is called "The Dead (short story)", but there is another called The Dead (story). Per WP:BOOKDAB, it seems the thing to do is move this page to "The Dead (Joyce story)", the other one to "The Dead (Swanwick story)", and leave "The Dead (story)" as a disambiguation page. Does anyone else have any thoughts? CohenTheBohemian (talk) 14:42, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Ellman, Richard (1982). James Joyce. New York: Oxford University Press. p. 243-253. ISBN 0-19-503103-2. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)

[1]