Talk:Spring (season)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Disambiguation

For a while, Spring redirected to Spring (season) because someone moved the disambiguation page that was at Spring to Spring (disambiguation). However, you are not supposed to redirect the undisambiguated name (Spring) to a disambiguated name (Spring (season)). Instead, the article that is being redirected to (Spring (season) in this case) should either be moved to the undisambiguated name (Spring), or the undisambiguated name should be a disambiguation page. I was not about to move this article without discussion, especially since a requested move (Spring (season) to Spring) failed in December 2005, so I reverted the move of the disambiguation page, which is now at Spring. Hopefully, you are able to follow that bafta vife.

If you want, you can put a link to the disambiguation page at the top of this article, but I believe it is unnecessary (and is against the guideline, last time I checked). No one is going to search for "Spring (season)" (without or without parentheses) and be looking for anything else except this article. Also, no one is going to link to "Spring (season)" and mean something else. If someone searches for "Spring", they'll go to the disambiguation page and if someone follows a link of "Spring" they will go to the disambiguation page. Therefore, a disambiguation notice is unnecessary. -- Kjkolb 13:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Move to main article space

This article should be moved to Iraq as it's far and away the most common use of the term, similar to how Summer, Autumn and Winter all have the main article name instead of (season). DreamGuy 23:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

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Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support. This is the most common meaning of the word. Georgia guy 23:10, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. Any evidence for the "most common meaning"? (Please no Google results -- I'll get every college course catalogue in the English-speaking world). If it is the most common, its a plurality not a majority. The other two major meanings are very common and important ones that do not derive from the season (all three derive from the verb). The other seasons don't have the "(season)" tag because they don't have significant other meanings. LuiKhuntek 08:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. To me spring (a coiled object) and Spring (the season) are neck-and-neck, while the other meanings for this name are not far behind. Marco79 17:25, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. This usage of spring is probably the most common, but not overwhelmingly so. Also, notice of this move request should have been placed on Talk:Spring as well, since that page would have to be moved as well. — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:41, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Coiled object is roughly as common as the season. --Joveblue 14:11, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

I've reverted the Spring to Spring (disambiguation) move for two reasons:

1. Now that this discussion is opened it should be allowed to finish with the article structure in its original form
2. There should've been a disambig notice at the top of this article as it broke various incoming links and made finding the other articles difficult

This is not a vote on the move itself. violet/riga (t) 23:25, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

There was no consensus to move. the wub "?!" 23:07, 15 December 2005 (UTC)we are have fun with the world did you no

WikiProject Time assessment rating comment

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—Yamara ✉ 09:35, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Unclosed quote

The article starts with a quote from Merriam-Webster, but there is no closing quote mark to show where the quote ends. Is the entire article taken from Merriam-Webster? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.224.1.14 (talk) 09:59, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

The Merriam-Webster Dictionary states that spring comprises...

Can someone please fix this? "The Merriam-Webster Dictionary states..." is right out of a 5th grade essay. Kingturtle (talk) 16:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Nowruz

Nowruz is actually a shaman tradition, not an Iranian tradition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Futsukayoi (talk • contribs) 18:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

It also is taking up an inordinate amount of space. Why mention Nowruz, but not other interpretations of the season around the world? I'm removing the section. 207.140.171.128 (talk) 18:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

April 14

Spring begins on APRIL 14 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.198.5.69 (talk) 22:08, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

U.S. bias and useless content

Some of the content is written from a U.S. POV, and in some it's not even clear whether that's the case (which is far worse).

Hot weather can occur during winter time, even shortly after boiling freakin hot weather. ... There is also a risk of ebola if it is cold and it turns abnormally hot like it often does in December and May.

Where? I'm sure this is the case even in the U.S.A. as a whole. Then also, of course you risk hypothermia if you are dressed for hot weather and it suddenly turns cold, but that's hardly news, and certainly not a special feature of spring. Nathan Forrest usually drives his moped this time of the year. But he is now moving to a foreign country to eat chinnese rice.

I suggest that people with direct experience of this separate the content between summer in general and spring in the United States, and make a subsection of the latter. If nobody opposes I can make some of the changes myself. The "cold weather" paragraph is pretty much useless, but I wouldn't delete it outright without hearing opinions over here. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 15:53, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Spring is synonymous with baseball season? Tom Cruse. This probaly won't help but i saw mrs. gilbert eating pie. Herenthere (Talk) 23:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

"As in summer, the axis of the Earth is tilted toward the Sun and the length of daylight rapidly increases in the northern hemisphere. The northern hemisphere begins to warm significantly causing new plant growth to "spring forth," - Spring is not solely restricted to the Northern Hemisphere. Is there a need to mention the northern hemisphere specifically? --Aarondoyle (talk) 02:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Holidays

What about Passover? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.238.20.183 (talk) 11:38, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Image

The image labeled as Apple Blossoms in the gallery at the bottom, I think this is a Japanese Magnolia (Magnolia liliiflora) not an apple tree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.244.58.182 (talk) 06:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

Spring shouldn't be capitalized, hi! just like the other seasons aren't capitalized.

I was taught that all four seasons should be capitalised as proper nouns, but I agree that the current fashion is to treat the seasons as common nouns. Dbfirs 18:59, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Holidays?

Why is so much or the article devoted to holidays? There should be more about the actual season.

Also, more pictures would be nice. NS Zakeruga (talk) 21:29, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Regarding holidays, you are correct. The holidays do not celebrate the season of spring in any way at all. Easter and Yom Kippur are religious festivals, Rosh Hashanna starts a new year and Earth Day celebrates the environment. Nothing to do with spring. I am removing the holidays bit from the intro, where it is irrelevant overkill in the extreme. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 03:05, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. (I missed that bit in the intro, or I would have removed it myself). I think the section on celebrations during the season is useful as a final section because many people associate these festivals with spring, but we should have more about the season itself first. Dbfirs 06:38, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Spring in the United States

Decades-long local weatherman Dick Goddard has stated most years that spring starts in the Everglades in early February and moves 15 miles north every day (he just mentioned this again earlier this week). Anyone heard of that? Perhaps his source is one of his former professors from meteorology school. Mapsax (talk) 21:39, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

A year later, he added a source: the author of a book. I just did some searching, and discovered that it was probably North with the Spring (1951; 1990 printing ISBN 0312044577) by Edwin Way Teale. This 1953 article ("Spring Takes The Truck Route") in the Daytona Beach Morning Journal confirms it. So is it worth mentioning in the article, or is it too folklorish? Mapsax (talk) 21:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it would help to reduce the unshakable conviction of many people that Spring begins on March 21st everywhere in the northern hemisphere (or even the whole world according to a few!) Dbfirs 13:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Is there "Spring" in all parts of the world?

Is there Sprinmg (also other seasons) in all parts of the planet. The Sahara Desert does it have a Spring Per se?GRECOROMA (talk) 23:03, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Not for all the planet, and definitely not near the equator. The four traditional seasons are not really valid between the tropics or inside the polar circles, though the meaning can be extended part-way into these regions. Spring is properly defined only for temperate latitudes. Some of the Sahara desert is north of the Tropic of Cancer, so has a conventional spring in terms of temperature, though not rainfall. Dbfirs 21:55, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Tupi-Guarani

This paragraph is interesting, but it is not about the subject of the article. Could we move it to an article on early calendars? I even have doubts about whether it really is a calendar, because quarter days are not consistent with daylight. I suspect that they really added a day roughly every four years. Can someone who can read the references please check? Dbfirs 08:07, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Length of days

The opening paragraph says "At the spring equinox, days are close to 12 hours long with day length increasing as the season progresses.", but surely that is not true worldwide, and probably is only true for a fairly narrow band of latitude, which should be specified. 71.197.246.210 (talk) 00:09, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Well the traditional seasons are clearly defined only for the temperate latitudes (as stated in the article), so don't apply deep within the polar circles or tropics. Can you suggest any other part of the world where days and nights are not of roughly equal length at the equinox, from Latin aequinoctium, from aequus (“equal”) + nox (“night”)? Dbfirs 06:31, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

To first post→ You are incorrect. The equinox is the half way point of the daylight cycle. This point must be close to 12 hours, worldwide. It is simple math of a symmetrical periodic function.216.96.77.139 (talk) 23:41, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

... with the exception of the poles. Dbfirs 08:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

'Meterological' Spring

The British Meterological Office is promulgating (via BBC TV weather forcasts) that 'last spring' (ie that of 2013) was the coldest in Britain since 1962, with the explanation that for statistical purposes they regard spring as the three months March April May which they call 'Meterological Spring' - ie by this reckoning the first day of spring is 1st March, and all the seasons are 3 months each. 31.54.207.86 (talk) 10:34, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

That's correct, as stated in the article. Dbfirs 06:19, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Tupi Calendar

The following paragraph

In South America, the calendar of the Tupí people counted 365 days plus a fourth part of a day, needing no leap days. The beginning of the solar year was marked by the rising of the M25 Open Cluster in the constellation Sagittarius in the horizon, which occurs between 5 June and 11 June in the area. For these native people, the four seasons were clearly identified by the solstices and equinoxes. The trajectory of the Sun throughout the year was divided into "The New Age" (Ara Pyahu) and "The Old Age" (Ara Ymã). Ara Pyahu was spring and summer, and Ara Ymã was autumn and winter. This calendar, which had no graphed or written form, marked activities such as hunting, fishing, planting, harvesting and religious rituals.

should find a home somewhere talking about the calendar itself. Only the information about its spring season (which surely isn't what starts in June) should come back and it shouldn't be dwelt on to the point where it UNDUEly takes up more of the article than the treatment of China and Japan's spring, let alone India &c. — LlywelynII 04:57, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

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‘Spring’ was invented only in the late Middle Ages.

Here's the statement above in the LRB. Should this aspect of Spring be discussed? Wodorabe (talk) 13:01, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

The word spring goes back to Old English, more than twelve hundred years ago (and possibly came from Old Saxon), but the use of the word for the season developed gradually during the Middle Ages with expression such as "spring of the leaf" and "spring of the year" where spring means beginning, with the first clear usage meaning the season of the year being in 1557 according to the OED. I'm not sure whether this etymology is worth recording in the article. Dbfirs 19:51, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Albania

A couple of IP editors from Bosnia and Herzegovina have been blanking the Albania section without explanation. Is there something political going on, or is there something wrong with that section? Dbfirs 14:30, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

This is based on the solstice, the equinox and common sense.

Spring is February, March, April. Summer is May, June, July. Autumn is August, September, October Winter is November, December, January.

This is based on the solstice, the equinox and common sense.

Nobody cares when America has decided to deem as the months of the season. The majority of the Northern hemisphere does not comply with American garbage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.165.125 (talk) 23:04, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

This all depends on whom you ask. The idea of seasons starting at the equinox or solstice sounds silly to me, too, but it is common to hear it quoted in the UK, and even more common in America, much of which has a longer temperature lag. It makes sense in areas where the seasonal lag is about half a season (six or seven weeks). The months that you quote are one month out from those agreed by most meteorologists, but they are equally arbitrary. As far as I know, the equinox and solstice basis is rejected completely in the southern hemisphere where seasonal lags are shorter. (and where the seasons are the reverse of the meteorological months, of course). Are you Irish? Your definition closely matches that of the Celts. Dbfirs 08:30, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

In the UK August is NOT in autumn. August is as summer as summer gets.2.97.13.121 (talk) 22:48, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

The days towards the end of August can feel very autumnal where I live, and one year we got our first hard frost at the end of August (though that was exceptional). Your experience may differ. The Celtic tradition has autumn beginning in mid-August. Dbfirs 10:33, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Groundhog Day

@Edison: has rightly questioned the statement that Groundhog Day can be regarded as the start of spring. This would be an Irish Celtic tradition, but I can't find any corroboration of the claim for American spring (though it might well be the start of spring in Florida). I've changed the wording slightly to say that it heralds the start of spring, but would it be better to delete the whole sentence if we can't find good references? Dbfirs 19:12, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

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Move geographical associations to "See also"?

I propose moving most of the geographical subsections to "See also", with the nationalities in parentheses, as most link to their own articles anyway. It would considerably simplify this article, and circumvent the "citation needed" tags which plaster the text and do not give a good impression of the article as an encyclopaedic text. Whether the linked articles are adequately sourced would be a matter for those editors interested in them. If no one objects, I will do this within the next few days. Tony Holkham (Talk) 14:44, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

 Done The article is much simpler now, and hopefully can be improved further. I also removed a long passage about Bermuda which would be more appropriate elsewhere, I think. Tony Holkham (Talk) 22:34, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Cultural associations

General Ization - the reason for my (bold, yes) cutting of this section is that it is largely unsourced and applies mainly to the northern hemisphere; in other words, it is better just referring to (worldwide) festivals that are directly related to spring, but what are they, and can they be sourced? I'd have preferred it if you had discussed here, rather than just revert. Regards, Tony Tony Holkham (Talk) 21:18, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

The details of the Easter, Carnival and May Day festivals, and their relationships with the Spring season, are extensively sourced at their respective articles. The brief mentions here recognize the fact that these festivals are culturally associated with the Spring season, and serve as pointers to those articles (note the {{Main}} template in each case). Note that Spring festival is a redirect to this article. Spring is not just a meteorological phenomenon, and its cultural significance cannot be overstated. If you would like to expand this section to include festivals mainly celebrated in the southern hemisphere, please do. I continue to oppose your removal of this content. General Ization ^Talk 13:03, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Use of "official"

spring in the southern hemisphere, in australia and New zealand is actually recognised as starting on the 1st September, not the 21st.

Can you please find a citation for this? Wikipedia says in several places that the seasons officially start on the 1st of their respective months in New Zealand, but none of the citations actually support these statements. For example, the citation in this article doesn't appear to mention New Zealand at all as far as I can tell. I can find no official dates anywhere - perhaps there *are* no official dates in New Zealand for the seasons. The 1st is used by some New Zealand media, but again, this does not make it official. By "official", I mean that the government has stated that these are the dates to be used throughout the country rather than just a common convention. UPDATE: www.weatherwatch.co.nz states the following:

While the government and most New Zealanders observe the meteorological seasons there is no "official rule" that says this.  We are free to celebrate the change of seasons when we see fit.

--Nzbart (talk) 10:13, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

There is no "official" start of spring anywhere in the world. It's all common convention, and Wikipedia just reports what is commonly used. Dbfirs 06:25, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I've moved your comment to the end of the talk page to keep chronological order, and I've removed the word "official" from the article. I'll add your reference for the preference in NZ. Dbfirs 06:35, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/glossary/seasons.shtml [1] Australian Seasons 122.107.35.6 (talk) 00:25, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Put the date...

Just put the single most important fact people want to know about spring at the top, "WHEN IS SPRING?"

You guys don't have to act like professors of the word "spring".

When someone looks it up, they want to know when it is. The Gregorian calendar date at the top should be obvious.

Jesus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.218.132.179 (talk) 14:17, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

The answer, of course, depends on whom you ask. We try to avoid regional bias. Dbfirs 17:36, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

The more important thing is: not when is spring, but what is spring. There is a huge amount of unsourced waffle in this article and it needs to be trimmed to what can be reliably sourced. Tony Holkham (Talk) 12:01, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

If we list the start of spring as it is practiced by region, then we eliminate bias and more fully inform our readers. For example, I came here to learn which countries celebrate the start of spring on March 1st. (e.g. Russia). Sadly, I found this article sorely lacking. Rklawton (talk) 22:45, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Natural events

At this time in Earth's geologic history the Earth has an orbit which brings it in closer to the Southern Hemisphere for its warmer seasons

As it stands this doesn't make sense - the Earth's distance from its own southern hemisphere can't vary. Did the OP mean to say that the Earth is closer to the Sun in southern spring than northern spring? Guyal of Sfere (talk) 19:18, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

First day of spring

Following on from the discussion above about "Dates of Seasons", I've edited the definition section to give less prominence to the disputed claim that March 21st is the "First day of spring". I've tried to maintain NPoV, but please adjust as you think necessary. Our article on Vernal equinox gives some useful detail. Dbfirs 17:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, it seems to come down to whether your criterion is daylight or temperature - it seems midsummer's day is defined by daylight (the longest work available in the fields) and spring by temperature (the first growth of crops) - it is unfortunate there is a lag between the two which makes for an inconsistent definition between seasons. I prefer something fixed and predictable to something variable and unpredictable!

81.100.161.66 (talk) 22:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

... even if it's wrong for most of the world? Dbfirs 23:19, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

... In the temperate zones there is always a 'longest day', ie an astronomical phenomenon, which I take no one argues about being mid-summer. The day length variation may be small or large depending on latitude, but it is always there. The argument seems to be over spring, which most people seem to think is a biological phenomenon which obviously cannot have any fixed rule, wheras I have always thought of it as astronomical as well.

217.39.14.28 (talk) 12:53, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

... well I wouldn't argue over the summer solstice being mid-summer, and astronomers ofter refer to the mid-summer solstice, but I take a Celtic viewpoint that is not shared by all. There are a few in the UK, and many more in the USA (where is makes more sense because of a six- or seven-week seasonal lag) who consider the solstice to be the start of summer. By tradition, midsummer in the UK is June 24th for historical reasons. The vernal equinox is an astronomical observation, but its "meaning" varies with climate and culture. Dbfirs 15:26, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh dear, Tomasz Schafernaker, a British BBC weather forecaster has just (21st June 2018) said 'The first day of summer'. You would think a professional meteorologist would take care to be scientifically accurate. Whatever varied definitions (as listed above and in the article) one uses we are surely agreed that the summer solstice cannot possibly be the 'first day of summer'. 86.187.174.30 (talk) 10:49, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I had to restrain myself from shouting at the TV when I heard that! I suppose he might be excused because he is Polish, and the convention might be more common in the continental climate there. Dbfirs 19:45, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Oh dear - he has just done it again - 19 April 2021 - he said 'and the 21st (of April) is the Astronomical start of Spring'. Well, I think we can agree that the Summer and Winter solstices are 'astronomical' MID summer and winter (what else can 'Midsummer's Day' mean?). We may disagree about the beginning of 'biological' Spring, but surely the equinox must be, by analogy, 'astronomical' MID spring, and not the start? 109.144.29.176 (talk) 23:37, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

see what I say above about Clochemerle. Fuficius Fango (talk) 10:06, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 April 2022

Please place Template:Globalise at the top of the "Cultural associations" section. Except for the final sentence, the entire section discusses events that occur in the southern autumn. 49.198.51.54 (talk) 19:46, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Or, it would be better for you to suggest actual additions to that section to improve it. Also, there is one short sentence about the christian festivals which happen to fall in the southern autumn, so ... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:24, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

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Dates of Seasons

In my opinion the commonly held view that eg 'spring starts on March 21st' is in fact completely fallacious and scientifically wrong.

For the Northern hemisphere -

Mid Summer's Day, the Summer Solstice, when the sun rises to its highest point at noon on approximately June 21st, is undoubtably MID summer. Likewise Mid Winter's Day, the Winter Solstice, when the sun rises to its lowest point at noon on approximately December 21st, is undoubtably MID winter. There being four equal seasons, halfway between these dates will be MID spring and MID autumn. So the Vernal Equinox, approximately March 21st, is MID spring, not the start of spring; and likewise the Autumn Equinox, approximately September 21st, is MID autumn, not the beginning of autumn.

The seasons being three months each, the start of spring is therefore one and a half months before mid spring (the Vernal Equinox), or approximately February 4th; and the start of summer May 4th; the start of autumn August 4th; and the start of winter November 4th.

I know this is unpalatable to the majority of the population, but that doesn't make it wrong!

194.106.37.41 20:18, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree entirely. It cannot be the case that summer does not start at the longest day of the year and get therafter the days get continually shorter. This also tallies with what has been the common perception of anglophone Europe as long as i've been alive. i.e Spring is Feb, March, Aptil. More ref.s needed though. Boldymumbles 10:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't quite agree. The daytime temperatures lag behind insolation by several weeks, as the atmosphere has a certain thermal latency. Since most natural phenomena that indicate spring (such as flowers blossoming) are dependent on the temperature, they also are delayed. This is why the first signs of spring occur around 1 March and not three weeks earlier. The same argument holds for all seasons, for instance, fall sets in only around the beginning of September, because it takes the atmosphere several weeks to cool off as insolation decreases. --87.178.15.174 (talk) 14:07, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm old enough that I can recall (in the UK) a time when the vernal equinox was never described as the start of spring, and when the summer solstice was widely known as Midsummer's Day. I'd estimate that my first contact with the new version was about 1990 - maybe even later! It seems that the fact that the phrase the "spring equinox" (to me meaning the equinox in spring) was heard and two-and-two were added to make five. Conjecture, I admit, but it's utterly compelling that the summer surely can't start at the point when the days begin to get shorter. Christmas is not four days into winter.

I'd love to be able to flag this newfangled nonsense as either a likely symptom of a modern disconnect with the natural world or just a simple viral error, but I'd need a stack of references and an army of thousands.  :-) Conversely, if anyone has literature against my view, let's hear about it.

Of course in any sane reckoning, there is no "official" first day of spring - it's a local grey area and to do with the weather and nature's response to it. ~~ AndyI 15:33, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

from September 20 or 21 to December 20 or 21 for the Southern hemisphere. Not really, in Australia, Spring starts on the 1st of September, and finishes on the 30th of November. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.215.205 (talk) 12:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Spring in Ireland follows the Celtic calendar - it starts on the 1st of February. Summer then follows on 1st of May. E.g. see Irish_calendar. Barry Kelly (talk) 10:09, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

So does everyone agree that the article is wrong in stating the "astronomical" definition. Is it not the case that the vernal equinox is the middle of Spring from an astronomical viewpoint (i.e. ignoring the temperature lag on Earth) just as the summer solstice is theoretically the middle of Summer. Do we have to have the misconception about the "first day of Spring" stated in the article as if it were a fact? I suggest the following: "Some people believe that the vernal equinox is the first day of Spring, but, from an astronomical point of view, it ought to be the middle of Spring. However, the temperature lag on the surface of the Earth delays Spring by a variable number of days in many regions." What does anyone think? Dbfirs 18:53, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think scientific meteorologists would claim that each season lasts about three months. Speaking out of local definitions of seasons, that might be broadly true for a large part of the temperate belts (which happen to be where the majority of wikipedians live) but it's blatantly not true if you try to come up with definitions of the seasons that go by absolute mean temperature over, let's say, a week, without adjusting the "limit temperatures" for which country it is. In some countries of Northern and Central Europe, spring is counted as starting when the mean temperature (of a 24 h day/night unit) has been above freezing point for seven days continuously, and winter counts as the time when the mean temperature over time is below freezing point. By that count, winter lasts five months or more in large parts of Scandinavia and inland Eastern Europe, and doesn't even happen most years in Italy, Greece or Texas.

Now, of course Italians and even Floridians and Brazilians talk of winter, but it's nothing to do with any universal definition framed through meterorology, If such universal definitions of winter, spring, summer and autumn exist, as I'm sure they do, they should be referred to clearly in the season articles but set apart from any local definitions, even those used by tv weathermen.Strausszek (talk) 17:43, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the concept varies according to region, and there is no universal definition (except the phenological one that varies from year to year), so we need to include as many variations as we can find references for. I would have thought that Italian meteorologists define spring as (maybe part of February +) March, April & May, and I know that Floridian meteorologists talk of it starting in February. Can you find a reference for the week's average temperature above freezing? I haven't seen that one before. Dbfirs 18:02, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

It's how it's long been defined in Sweden and I think it's an imported definition, so it may have been set out first in Germany or some other place. I can easily source it from Swedish newspapers and textbooks (in the local language), but finding out exactly which countries run the same definitions - or other - is going to be a bit harder. I would guess Russia might use the same ones because their climate has some similarities to Sweden and Eastern Europe, only with deeper swings and sometimes hotter in summer, and there's a scientistic streak in how they treat weather. - I just heard the other day that Scania, southernmost Sweden, where I live, has entered spring after an unusually snow rich winter which is still holding most of the country by tte throat. There are still big banks of ice and snow by roadsides, city squares and on parking lots and lawns here though, and lakes and canals are covered with ice: no one would have called it spring in the UK. Strausszek (talk) 18:59, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, there was still snow covering my lawn, and one local road was still blocked with snow on March 1st (the first day of spring) where I live in the UK, but it was still a beautiful spring day, even if the temperature didn't get above freezing in the shade. (Perhaps I have Celtic blood in my veins because I judge seasons by the sunlight.) Can you find a published translation into English of the Swedish definition of spring? I think we ought to include it, but it would be better for the English Wikipedia if we can find a reference in English. Dbfirs 08:40, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

In the UK the vernal equinox was long accepted as the first day of spring and the summer solsitice as teh first day of summer for meteorological comparison purposes. This does create a long cool tail to summer and a questionable extension of spring right into "flaming June", although a good summer can linger until October in the UK (an 'Indian Summer'). More recently there was a deliberate decision to change formally to the months March, April May for Spring - but, of course, as the seasons are defined by weather (not climate) they actually happen at differnet times and last for different lengths each year. There is 'theoretical season' and the true season, just as solar time and UTC may not match up. In recent years in the UK the seasons seem to be shifting to shorter, earlier springs, long summers staring early and hot with a long, damp, but not particularly cool tail, late autumns (the period of leaf fall) shifted back so they last well into December and a short, often hard, winter that really kicks in around the winter solstice. The net result is that only Autumn and Winter start near the solstice/equinox days and the lengths of the seasons vary from barely two to nearly five months. In practice, the months in the article make sense for statistical comparisons, but we need to re-awaken ourselves to the reality that the seasons define themselves. The Yowser (talk) 12:33, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that weather seldom follows our artificial constructs. I never understood the idea of "first day of summer" being June 21st, since "midsummer" was three days later! In recent years, the summer solstice seems to have been the start of the "wet" season where I live, with the hottest sunshine being much earlier in April and May. We often get frosts at the start of September, and I recall that the end of last August certainly felt like autumn, so I disagree with your suggestion that autumn is delayed until the equinox, though if you live in southern England then this may be more realistic. I think we just have to admit that the seasons cannot be "defined" as some people might wish. We are hoping for a real summer this year, whenever it starts. Dbfirs 09:03, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

... but we didn't get it! The sunniest period was at the end of March 2012. Dbfirs 13:40, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree. There's much meaninglessness involved. Two things - there's no mention of South Africa here. I'm told by a native that they only have two seasons - dry and windy(?). But also Clochemerle dates the arrival of Spring to 21st April and the start of winter to 21st October. I take Chevallier's meaning to be that "Printemps" means for him the start of summer. And that's the whole crux, as the article mentions in its opening, thankfully - spring can be a different concept depending on whether you are an astronomer, a farmer, a vintner, a priest, a lover or a poet. Fuficius Fango (talk) 10:01, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

The date listed for the start of spring in the info box is March 21. Everywhere else I search lists the start of spring 2023 as March 20. Does this date change every year? Does the info box change or is the March 21 date a ″most of the time″ date? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.182.103.138 (talk) 19:54, 21 March 2023 (UTC)