Talk:Southern American English/Archive 3

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Southern American english page

On the North American English regional phonology page ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_English_regional_phonology ) it states that the midland, while part of the southeast region according to Labov, is not part of southern american english. Labov doesn't even consider south midland to be part of the midland. I noticed on the Southern American English page ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_American_English ) that there's a map that includes the midland on it. How is this accurate? I come from Indianapolis. We don't speak southern. We might have a couple features, but largely don't speak with a southern accent. I don't think most people view David Letterman (who's from Indianapolis) as having a "southern accent."

Also, I noticed that Labov states here http://www.atlas.mouton-content.com/AtlasofNorthAmericanEnglish_WdG-PartA.pdf (This is from Atlas of North American English) quite a few times about the North, West, Midland and South, like each is a different region. Although it's in video form on youtube, Labov does mention midland being sort of a buffer zone between North and South.

I'm not saying the Midland is part of the North, but I don't think it's part of the South either. Opinions? Molnizzle (talk) 15:47, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

There are a few things to parse here. First, what specifically is your claim or contention? Is it about the map on the Southern American English page? It doesn't show Indianapolis as having a Southern accent. Second, yes, as you say, the Midland is neither part of the North nor the South. That's why it already has its own separate page: Midland American English. I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise. Third, to Northerners and Westerners, some people from Indiana certainly have some noticeably Southern features. I agree that Letterman has a more generic Midland accent, but look south of Indianapolis. Mike Pence, who is from Columbus, Indiana, says "again" as "agin" and "did" as "dee-id", he uses fronted FOOT, MOUTH, and GOOSE vowels, he lowers his FACE vowel, and he has a bunched-tongue "r" sound. Wolfdog (talk) 16:50, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
I don't think midland belongs in the category with the "south." Or it really belongs on this page. The map says "related" midland accent. To quote " Purple represents the related Midland accent, which together with the Southern accent falls under the "Southeastern super-region" (defined in this section") At least not Northern Midland. Labov, Ash, and Boberg define midland as a buffer zone between North and South. This we agree on. According to Labov there isn't even a southern midland. Just a "midland." But why does the map have midland as related? I agree with the Midland American page that south midland is a weaker version of the southern accent, but I don't agree that North Midland and the South are in any sort of Umbrella. Perhaps I'm misreading, my apologies if that is the case. When I seen on the map where the purple dots are "related" to the south, I got confused. I don't think any of us in Indianapolis speak with a southern accent. I think the purple dots go to high. Omaha, Nebraska isn't southern midland. I don't think Kansas City nor Columbia are either. They aren't on the midland american english map. And I don't think south Midland reaches into Iowa. I guess I really shouldn't be complaining to you, since you are the one that drew that map on the midland page, which to me is more accurate. Molnizzle (talk) 17:16, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Labov et al. use the term "Midland" for the region that was described as "North Midland" in mid–20th Century dialectology, since they include what was described as the "South Midland" as just part of the South (Kentucky, Tennessee, northern Alabama...). The (North) Midland is definitely a different dialect region than the South, but it shares more features with the South than it does with the North. For this reason, Labov et al. describe the Midland plus the South (and a few other nearby regions) as together constituting a "southeastern super-region" united by shared features such as the fronting of GOAT. AJD (talk) 17:54, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Ok, but why has he said on numerous occasions that it's a buffer zone between the North and South? To me that means really neither. He also on various occasions would go on about North, South, West and Midland "regions" in Atlas of North American English.Molnizzle (talk) 17:59, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
It is really neither. That doesn't mean it's not the case that it has more in common with the South than with the North. AJD (talk) 18:05, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
My argument is that I don't agree with the map that says "related" Southern American english. When I read what he says about the midland being a buffer zone, or going on about dialect (N, S W, M) I don't see them as related. maybe I';m confused, but when I read that map it sounded like midland and southern american english were related. I don't think I agree with that. As I stated above, I am from Indianapolis. I gave David letterman as and example because he's well known and from Indianapolis. I don't see how that speech is close enough to be "related." I do agree that the southern third of Indiana more closely resembles a southern accent. I'm not and expert on this field. I just seen that on a map and a big question mark came up. Molnizzle (talk) 18:08, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Midland and South are related. That doesn't mean they're not different, but they're more similar than, for example, Midland and North, and they have some elements of shared origin. That's what "related" means. AJD (talk) 18:31, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Looking at David letterman as and example, I don't see it. This, along with Labov's buffer zone talk and putting North, South, Midland and West in different dialect "regions" for me "related" is a pretty powerful word. I'll see if I can email him about this. Ask many natives around here in Indianapolis if the way they speak are related to a southern accent and they'd give you a confused look on their face. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. Molnizzle (talk) 18:49, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
The reason we do scientific research is so we don't have to depend on individual examples and personal anecdotes in order to determine if two things are related or not. AJD (talk) 18:58, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
I'd like to take the time to thank both AJD and wolfdog for taking the time to respond. Thanks guys. Molnizzle (talk) 19:23, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

The map File:SouthernEnglishMap.jpg

This map almost exactly follows the phonological boundary identified in the Atlas of North American English (ANAE), except that, unlike the ANAE, this map for some reason includes Corpus Christi Greater Oklahoma City, Tallahassee, and the Outer Banks. This is why I created File:Southern_dialect_levels.jpg, which I thought of as more precise, identifying exact cities rather than a blob-like isogloss. Wolfdog (talk) 22:43, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
I agree with kevinfromtx, and would support a move. Molnizzle (talk) 22:07, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
I also support the move. Derickchetter (talk) 03:22, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm in agreement for that section being moved to the North American English regional phonology page. Akuma809 (talk) 18:58, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
It is a very basic map of the boundaries of southern dialect. How else are you to show the extent of dialect without a map? And people want that information, often without having to do a lot of reading, so it is very useful.Dubyavee (talk) 00:14, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm for keeping that map included. Kevinfromtx (talk) 18:08, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
Another vote for including the map. Molnizzle (talk) 16:48, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm confused how the map is superior to the dialect levels map already on the page. Even if we keep it, we would still need to amend it to be more precise. Wolfdog (talk) 20:34, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
I don't think it's a question of superiority, a page may have more than one map. It shows the region very simply and quickly.Dubyavee (talk) 21:27, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree. Kevinfromtx (talk) 23:13, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
Well put, Dubyavee. And that's a good reason why that map should be included. Derickchetter (talk) 06:56, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
How about the inaccuracy part? Are we just saying that it's "good enough"? Can the original creator clean it up to be a little more precise? Wolfdog (talk) 01:21, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I think we need to agree where the inaccuracies lie in the map in question. Is it Florida? I can retool the map myself if I know just what inaccuracies people want removed.Dubyavee (talk) 20:05, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
No problem. This map is clearly based on the Atlas of North American English studies, though it misses some important nuances. A typical map of the Southern region from the ANAE can be seen in this PDF; look specifically at page 129: here. As you will see there, the southern tip of Texas does not clearly lie within the Southern dialect region (though this is probably a mixed situation), Tallahasse certainly doesn't, the eastern edge of North Carolina doesn't (I can scrounge around for other sources if you are still doubtful), the two cities studied in Oklahoma certainly do not, and Charleston (SC) certainly does not. Thanks! Wolfdog (talk) 21:46, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I am curious as to why the map on page 129 of the pdf differs so much from the map provided by the same source on their webpage here [1]Dubyavee (talk) 22:54, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
That page-129 map is older (I think from around 1997), but the full ANAE wasn't published until 2006. The name was changed from "Phonological Atlas of North America" to the "Atlas of North American English"; if you look at the newer website, this is the map for various defining phonological features of the Southern regional dialect: here. You can see it precisely follows the other map I showed you; the boundaries are well established. Wolfdog (talk) 00:46, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
I don't see why we should re-edit it. Others already agreed it was good or close enough. I'm sure no map is 100 percent perfect in this regard. Kevinfromtx (talk) 02:45, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
I don't see why you should avoid facts when they are presented for your convenience and consistent. We're keeping the map you want AND making it precise. Why would you be against that? Wolfdog (talk) 19:24, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
The map is sourced as it is now. By professors. By that I mean probably not every professor would have and "exact" map in regards to this. Even you stated earlier that it was very close. Kevinfromtx (talk) 21:05, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
Dubyavee has already agreed to make the changes for us, meaning it wouldn't have to inconvenience you, so I'm not sure why we're still debating. That "not every professor would have an 'exact' map" is missing the point. The ANAE is considered by all professors in the field as the preeminent source on the phonology of American English. But since you insist that the map is just as good "sourced as it is now", let's go ahead and actually look at the three sources provided. The first one is the "Nationwide Speech Project", a legitimate source that self-admittedly takes their information straight from the ANAE (as you can see here), except that they simplify the map, which on the ANAE's own website shows their more precise and more up-to-date boundaries (as I've already linked to in the above discussion). The second source is, once again, from the Phonological Atlas, the outdated early findings of what is now known as the ANAE. The third source is not actually a peer-edited or academic site at all; it's a well-intentioned amateur's self-published website that should not be cited on Wikipedia (which, though, ironically has a detailed map that only further bolsters the ANAE's strict Southern dialect region; just like the ANAE, this map excludes Oklahoma City, Tallahassee, the Outer Banks, etc.). Wolfdog (talk) 00:41, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
You stated that you felt that is almost follows, and I agree. Others felt the map was fine as well. I'm fine with the map the way it is. Just my personal take. Kevinfromtx (talk) 05:15, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

@Wolfdog: I noticed you added the "super region" part to Southern American English. Why not keep that on pages like this one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_English_regional_phonology The South is largely it's own umbrella and should have it's own article dedicated to it like all the other umberalls, as shown here https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/North_American_English_dialect_regions.jpg. Inland North, New York, North Central Midwest all have their own pages that talk specifically about just them. Talk about Super Regions should be here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_English_regional_phonology

I'm all for keeping certain mentions like, Charleston, Atlanta and Savannah on here. But the South deserves to have it's own page like all the others do. This would be consistent with the other pages. Kevinfromtx (talk) 08:20, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm a little confused by your suggestion. The South already does have its own article. We're typing on its talk page right now. Wolfdog (talk) 14:28, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Sorry for the confusion. I think this section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_American_English#Phonology_of_the_Southeastern_super-region belongs here.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_English_regional_phonology North American English regional phonology specifically talks a bout "super regions." Inland North, New York and North Central Midwest all have their own article pages that specifically talk about them. Why can't the south have it's own page? When people think of the southern accent, they think of the ex confederate states, and that largely is where the southern accent is (the exception being the past couple decades of northerners moving to central and south florida and a few southern cities like Charleston and Atlanta. If you agree with this, can you please do the editing and moving? I'm not that good with grammar.Kevinfromtx (talk) 19:28, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I understand everything you're saying up until the question "Why can't the south have it's own page?" The South does have its own page, so this continues to be confusing. In any case, I understand your concern that we move the section "Phonology of the Southeastern super-region" to the article North American English regional phonology. I'll look now and see if that makes sense. Wolfdog (talk) 19:33, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I made a modified map of the original green map, I didn't upload it to Wikipedia until people commented on it. It is here [2] Dubyavee (talk) 23:53, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Ah... didn't know you were still planning on working on that. I approve, though you may want to include the North Carolina Outer Banks (see my version of the map currently on the page). Wolfdog (talk) 23:10, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm fine with either new map. Kevinfromtx (talk) 01:08, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Move to "Southern United States English"

Seems like an editor skipped the whole protocol of Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves here. I assumed "Southern American English" was pretty well established and "Southern United States English" not so much. Others' thoughts? Wolfdog (talk) 13:58, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. Southern American English is much more common. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 16:21, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
I've reverted the move per Wolfdog's request. A move proposal can be made using the procedures at WP:RM. - Station1 (talk) 15:09, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
It should be "Southern USA English" or similar, "Southern American" sounds like a synonym for South American. Irtapil (talk) 16:15, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Except it doesn't. Southern American and South American are commonly (and easily) parsed in everyday speech. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 18:10, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Mild page restructuring

@121.217.21.232, 120.29.117.138, 36.75.96.92, and 76.11.187.69: I see that since my mild August 23 restructuring there have been several other attempts to restructure the page. I think that means it's time for a discussion. My original thinking was this:

  • Modern phonology
    • Inland South and Texas
    • Distinct Southern areas
      • Atlanta, Charleston, and Savannah
      • Southern Louisiana

In this structuring, every sub-heading falls under a proper other (sub-)heading: i.e., Atlanta, Charleston, Savannah, AND Southern Louisiana are all "distinct Southern areas". I'll get to some reasons in a moment about why my own restructuring was imperfect*. At the present moment, however, what has been settled upon is the following ordering:

  • Modern phonology
    • Inland South and Texas
    • Urban Areas
      • Atlanta, Charleston, and Savannah
    • Southern Louisiana

This is OK, but there are some problems. First, the purpose of my original change was to put all distinct/unique/divergent phonologies (i.e. "dialectally non-Southern" Southern accents) under a common heading. Second, "Urban Areas" (and "Areas" shouldn't be capitalized anyway) is a little controversial. Just because urban speakers are retreating from the dialect doesn't mean younger urban speech now gets to be the definition of all urban speech. For all we know, the retreat could stop, diminish, or even reverse. Third (see my asterisk above*), neither of our re-orderings recognize that the "Southern Louisiana" section discusses both phonology AND vocabulary. Here's the best re-ordering I can think to propose:

  • Modern phonology
    • Inland South and Texas
    • Distinct phonologies
      • Atlanta, Charleston, and Savannah
      • Southern Louisiana

This is a lot smoother, since we'd be encouraging consistency by repeating the word "phonology". If we chose "phonology", however, we'd really have to move Southern Louisiana's vocabulary (neutral ground, banquette, etc.) under a second "Southern Louisiana" sub-section within the current "Vocabulary" section. I'd be happy to do all this. Wolfdog (talk) 21:17, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Maybe this is less controversial than I thought. I'll just implement the changes. Someone can revert if they don't like 'em. Wolfdog (talk) 14:31, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Liketa

I added "liketa" (could also be written "like to" or "liked ta") to the typical Southern vocab list, but it occurs to me that it might not be typical after all. Alabama and southern Appalachia, where it's best studied, are certainly only a small region of the whole South. Anyone from outside that core area ever use the word or hear your neighbors use it? Wolfdog (talk) 23:31, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Reference Concerns

Is there a reference or source for the second paragraph of the Geography section that mentions the potential origin of Southern American English? I could not find the citation and it does not seem like a common knowledge paragraph.

BitterLilyz (talk) 15:14, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

@BitterLilyz: It appears to come from the first two pages of the Erik Thomas source. Wolfdog (talk) 12:37, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

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