Talk:Sourav Ganguly/GA1

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GA Review[edit]

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After a initial read through, I have noticed a few things, but overall, a very good, informative article. I will add my detailed review once I have it completed. Reviewer: Neonblak talk - 03:13, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Lead section
    • Check all the links for re-directs, there are several instances throughout the article.
    • Ensure non-breaking spaces are used when appropriate, example "131 runs", WP:NBSP.
    • "In 2000, after match fixing scandals rocked cricket, Ganguly was made the captain of the Indian cricket team." - This, along with the reference in the main body, is unclear to me. I think it means that the previous Captain resigned due to his involvment in match fixing? Maybe "Due to match-fixing scandals in 2000, Indian Captain, Tendulkar, resigned his position, and Ganguly was promoted from Vice-Captain as his replacement"?
    • "However, he soon received media criticism after an unsuccessful stint for county side". - there is a double space before county cricket. Does this mean he played for the National and County teams?
    • "He lead led India into the 2003 Cricket World Cup final; however, they were defeated by Australia."
    • "He made a comeback to the national side in 2006 and had successful batting displays." - Maybe "He returned to the National team in 2006, and had successful batting displays."?
    • "Around the same time he got involved in a rift with then Indian team coach Greg Chappell, because of mutual misunderstandings between them." - Maybe "Around this time, he became involved in a dispute with Indian team coach Greg Chappell over several misunderstandings"?
    • "Ganguly was again dropped, before being selected for an unsuccessfully 2007 Cricket World Cup campaign." - Maybe "Due to this rift, Ganguly was again dropped from the team, however he was selected to play in the 2007 Cricket World Cup."?
    • "The same year, he announced his retirement from cricket, after a home Test series against Australia." - Maybe "The same year, after a home Test series against Australia, he announced his retirement from cricket."
    • "After Following his retirement, Ganguly continued to play for the Bengal team...".
    • "He is India's most successful Test captain to date, winning 21 tests out of 49 tests that he had captained." - Maybe "He is India's most successful Test Captin to-date, winning 21 of 49 Tests." Captain and tests were redundant, also capitolize Captain and Tests as they have been in the rest of the article.
      • Corrected. The redirect is left as I need to find what tool I can use for it as wiki-ed doesnot work for me. Also, the lead is tweaked a little as per Monkey's suggestion.--Legolas (talk2me) 08:18, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1972–1989: Early life and introduction to cricket
    • "Since the favourite sport for the inhabitants of Kolkata was the game of football,..." - For readers that don't know, I would link "football" to "Association football".
    • "After he scored a century against the Orissa..." - century is not a well-known term, I would link it to "Century (cricket)".
    • "One anecdote was that during a tour with a junior team, it was Ganguly's turn to be the twelfth man, a substitute who can only perform the tasks of fielding and whose role is usually to raise morale by supporting the players and organising their spare equipment and drinks, as well as ferrying messages from the dressing room to the ground. Ganguly purportedly refused to do such tasks as he considered it beneath his social status to assist his teammates in such a way." - Maybe "While touring with a junior team, Ganguly refused his turn as the twelth man as he reportedly felt that the duties involved, which included organising equipment and drinks for the players, and delivering messages, were beneath his social status."
    • "However, his playmanship gave him a chance to make his first-class cricket debut for Bengal, the same year that his brother was dropped from the team." - Should include the year to make things clear.
  • 1990–1996: Career beginning and debut success
    • "It was rumored that Ganguly refused to carry drinks for his teammates commenting that it was not his job to do so, later denied by him. Consequently, he was removed from the team." - comma needed after "teammates".
    • "Following an innings of 171 in the 1995–96 Duleep Trophy, he was recalled for national tour of England in 1996, in the middle of intense media scrutiny." - Maybe "Following an innings of 171 in the 1995–96 Duleep Trophy, he was recalled to the National team for a tour of England in 1996,..."
    • "India were not required to bat in the second innings, as the match ended in a tame draw." - Maybe "India was not required to bat in the second innings due to the match ending in a draw."
  • 1997–1999: Marriage, Opening in ODIs and World Cup '99
    • "In 1997 Ganguly scored his maiden ODI century by hitting 113..." - comma needed after 1997.
    • bowling should be linked, first appearance in the article. Also, as someone not familiar with cricket nomenclature, what does "5/16 off 10 overs" mean?
    • "In January 1998, in the final of the Independence Cup at Dhaka he scored 124 against Pakistan, as India successfully chased down 315 off 48 overs, winning the Man of the match award." - Maybe "During the final of the Independence Cup at Dhaka in January 1998, India successfully chased down 315 off 48 overs, and Ganguly won the Man of the Match award".
  • 2000–2005: Ascension to captaincy and accolades
    • "He scored further two centuries but his second one scored in the final, was in vain as New Zealand won by four wickets." - Maybe "He scored two centirues, including one in the final; however, New Zealand still won by four wickets."
  • 2006–2007: Comeback and rift with Greg Chappell
    • "During his first Test innings since his comeback, against South Africa in Johannesburg, he scored 51, resulting in India winning a Test match in South Africa for the first time." - Maybe "During his first Test innings since his comeback, against South Africa in Johannesburg, his score of 51 helped India to victory, marking the first Test match win for the team in South Africa."
    • "Consequently, due to his poor form and differences with the coach he was dropped as the captain and the team. Dravid took his place as teh new captain." - Maybe "Consequently, due to his poor form and differences with the coach, Ganguly was dropped as the captain of the team, with Dravid taking his place."
    • "He was also the fifth highest rungetter in 2007..." - is rungetter a proper term for this? maybe run producer?
  • "2008–present: Kolkata Knight Riders and retirement"
    • "Playing in Mohali in the second Test of the series, Ganguly scored his final Test century. In the final match, with India needing one wicket to secure a victory, the Indian captain, Mahendra Singh Dhoni, allowed Ganguly to lead the side in the field one last time." - clunky, maybe "While playing the second Test match of a series in Mohali, Ganguly scored his final test century. In the final match, with India needing one wicket to secure a victory, the Indian Captain, Mehndra Singh Dhoni, allowed Ganguly to lead the side in the field one last time." Are there dates for this series? Did India get the victory?
      • Done all. —Aaroncrick (talk) 06:21, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Tweaked to include info from Monkey about Tendulkar's health being main reason for captaincy loss. --Legolas (talk2me) 09:08, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Legacy
    • "...having amassed the highest number of century partnerships (26) for the first wicket." - a non-breaking space bewtween partnerships and (26).
    • "Ganguly believed that his legacy as a captain was that her he was able to build a porper proper Indian team. He added,..."
    • "Later he explained that being at a receiving end of a raw deal that threatened to ruin his international cricket career,..." is there better way to say "raw deal", too informal unless it is an actual quote, then it needs to be written as so.
  • In General
    • Needs persondata. see: WP:PERSONDATA
    • Fix all the re-direct issues
    • Add non breaking spaces where appropriate

Other than that, it looks like the pictures (including alt text), references, layout are all properly done. Again, very informative, comprehensive article. I look forward to passing this when these issues have been addressed.Neonblak talk - 05:53, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't bother to formally object to this article when it was first nominated; because GAN queue can take around 2 months, it was pointless to fail it in case the article was fixed during that time, so as to not make them go back to the end of the line, but this article isn't really comprehensiveness, and is quite pro-Ganguly in its POV.
      • WRT Chappell v Gangu, he was dropped and brought back 3-4 times in a few months and there were backflips, but not explained.
        • Unnecessary for bio, there is a separate article for the debate.
      • When he was captain, India lost to Australia in about 5-6 finals and didn't win any IIRC, and lost more than 75% of their ODI finals and Ganguly/India was criticised a lot
        • Again, inserting criticism just for the sake of it, please point sources rather than your own assumption.
          • It's all over Cricinfo, it is well known
      • 2003 tour of Australia isn't explained that much
        • Why does everything need to be about Australia?
          • Because before that India alaways lost badly in Australia and it was regarded as a watershed when they drew the Tests
            • Again, criticism not associated with the bio in discussion.
      • AScension to the captaincy isn't explained properly, so the reader may think that the former captain was a match-fixer, but he wasn't it was just that Tendulkar had a bad run and resigned, and at the same time other players were banned for match-fixing
        • This can be handled.
      • 2001 v Australia not explained. India/Gang was heavily criticised after the first Test, then turned it around. Ganguly also took pride is pissing off Steve Waugh, and then gave the finger to a bunch of Australian supporters
        • WP:FANCRUFT
          • It is not fancruft, as he was always trying to beat them
            • Giving finger to spectators is indeed FANCRUFT.
      • In 2003 he was out 3-4 times in a row due to short ball
        • Can be included.
      • India's away record gradually improved under Ganguly
        • I knew this, but couldnot find any book explaining it.
      • He was also criticised a lot for being politically manipulative, not just by Chappell, but others. And was known for supporting angry young men, valueing potentially loose cannons, confrontation, over steady/dour performers
        • No, that was part of his legacy for putting in front the youngsters, as in India, general preference always fall on same old arthritic players.
      • At the moment the article only talks about him making the team stand up for themselves/more aggressive, without explaining that at the same time they were also not being disciplined about it, but sometimes just being confrontational
        • Can be included.
      • In 2001, in RSA the whole team got hauled up and sanctioned by the match referee, and then they kicked the referee out of the stadium. Under Ganguly, India's players got disciplined by the match referee, and Ganguly championed belligerent players
        • Why is this exactly needed?
          • Ganguly was sanctioned for failing to control his players
            • OK I'll try to search info regarding this.
      • Ganguly was often accused of faking injuries and withdrawing from matches when he didn't get what he wanted, and it wasn't only Chappell that said this, I once read an In-deoth TOI analyis of this, which took up 2-3 whole broadsheet pages.

Generally, Ganguly had very long career, one of the most prolific run-scoring players in history, as there are so many matches nowadays, and he was always involved in fights with everyone, he was one of the most polarising figures in world cricket, so the article has to be very long to even cover all these points. At the moment, some years have almost nothing on the results` YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 07:55, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I find it extremely unlikely that you found issues with the article and got the GAN to point them out, when you could have done it before also. I never saw you pointing out anything to either me or Aaron. Makes me question the integrity of your sudden outburst. Overall, I completely disagree that the article is pro-Ganguly. I donot believe that criticism should be included against every appreaciation and I believe in respecting WP:BASICHUMANDIGNITY, rather than going into tabloidy details about everything. --Legolas (talk2me) 08:11, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I already told you on Aaron's talk and you saw it. I'm not a mug. I'm used to this kind of thing on Indian stuff and FAs too. I'm not stupid YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 08:19, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Im not implying anything of that sort. You have promoted a number of articles for GA and FA and would know better, however I find it bad faith that you knew that some info was missing, and didn't point it out before, rather than now? The GAR didnot start the day after its nomination. I won't stretch this further and will try to incorporate some of the info that you pointed. Thank you for your help. --Legolas (talk2me) 08:30, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did point it out on Aaron's talk page and you responded to it, and there isn't a need to go through everything that is missing, because most things are missing. His debut series is mentioned, four Tests against Sri Lanka are mentioned, 1 sentence on 5 Tests against Aus/RSA mentioned. He captained for 49 Tests out of 113. 40% of Tests. But only two sentences of the article about his contributions as a player. One about his WC stats, the other just says he declined without giving details. 5 years and there are only two sentences on actual play, but much more on T20. I could have just failed it immediately and then you would have had to fix it and wait in a queue for a long time from the back again, when you could have worked on it when it was in the queue, but didn't. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 08:43, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have to say that I disagree with you completely that each and every thing doesnot need to be in the article as this is a WP:BIOGRAPHY, not List of awards and achievements by Sourav Ganguly, where such info is appropriate. You may find such fancrufty additions amusing, however I find it WP:UNDUE and in-world. I will see which info can be added and reject others, again my point is not that. In Aaron's talk you just mentioned that the article is pro-Ganguly, which I have disagreed before also. --Legolas (talk2me) 08:58, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from —SpacemanSpiff

I told Aaron I was going to post this on his talk page over the weekend (didn't expect the review to start so soon!), but as the review has started, I'll post here:

  • 1990-96 is a too heavy on the two Tests. A little less info on those Tests and a bit more on the FC record would be appropriate.
    • Ummm.. is it really UNDUE? Doesnot developing the background of his debut necessiate an entry? *confused* --Legolas (talk2me) 09:33, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "...handing England a 1–0 series victory, despite Ganguly scoring 48 in the second innings.[21][22]" - [21] is a scorecard, I don't know how [22] reads, but in reality, SRT was the top scorer in both innings, so a judgment of "despite Ganguly.." is not correct.
      •  DoneYou're correct. The book says TEndulkar's innings, an overlook by me.
  • 1997-99: The losses could be linked to 1999_Cricket_World_Cup#Group_A_Results and the sentences trimmed to focus on Ganguly's performance instead.
    • The Nagma bit needs a better source; there's a lot of extra related information in that source that's not summed up in the sentence. In addition, that source itself doesn't appear credible (although it's TOI, that news piece was not even copy-edited)
  • 2000-05 needs a title tweak: if it was "accolades" then the next section shouldn't be "comeback"
    • The section needs some expansion on the B-G Trophy, it's one of the most reviewed bilateral series for India and Ganguly's behavior on and by the field received wide coverage. Second Test, 2000–01 Border-Gavaskar Trophy also needs to be linked to discuss the manner of ending the 16-win run.
    • Likewise the 2003 B-G Trophy needs some more attention as it was again one of India's most reviewed, and the only time India came back from Australia with the B-G Trophy. The Pakistan series can be skipped since Ganguly captained only one Test.
    • Also, there's really no mention of his successful relationship with John Wright, which was also pretty well reviewed in contemporary times, especially the bit about how their contrasting styles combined to produce the good team.
      •  DoneI have the info, thought that it would deviate too much. Well I'll add it. :) --Legolas (talk2me) 09:13, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Legacy, something other than Steve Waugh's quote should end the article. They both hated each other's guts and neither's opinion should be the final opinion of the other.
    • I strongly support your point as I believe criticism from peers is an extreme case of the violation of WP:NPOV. --Legolas (talk2me)

Good work! cheers. —SpacemanSpiff 09:03, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I am ready to pass this article, but it was pointed out in the discussion above that his coaching style, while good for nuturing his players' aggressiveness, he didn't appear to set limits on this, however, allowing for confrontational behavior. I believe the article to be non-biased, but if this two-sided coaching legacy is true, it would be a great addition, solidifying comprehensiveness. I fixed the re-directs, non-breaking spaces, and everything else is up to snuff in my opinion. I would feel comfortable if that last issue was addressed though.Neonblak talk - 06:46, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mike_Denness_and_Indian_cricket_team_incident Here we are. In one match, he got a suspended ban, and so did 5 other players in the team (more than half the team)
  • Banned for 6 ODIs in 2005 due to slow over rates
  • Some of the key milestones on his cricinfo profile are missing
  • fight with chappell in wrong order. He went out of form, had a fight, then was dropped, then came back after the others failed. At the moment the fight is 4th in the article instead of 2nd
  • Article about Ganguly promoting angry players and confrontation [1]

YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 04:57, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • If there is information that is misplaced, that would have to be addressed. I agreed with you above on his coaching legacy, and I don't think much has be included/re-written in order solved these issues. But, like it was pointed out above, for GA purposes, each incident does not have to be included (good or bad) to make it comprehensive.Neonblak talk - 06:02, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please give me one day. Alongwith Monkey's sources, I found a para in one of the bios, where this issue is addressed. Would be good addition. --Legolas (talk2me) 09:32, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have added the material regarding the negative feedback on his coaching and mentoring styles. I believe the section addresses the issues and is properly balanced now. --Legolas (talk2me) 09:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks like you missed an italic after the newpaper name before the quote.
  • Last issue, in response to Monkey above, let me set a general timeline in regards to his time with the India National Team. Let me know if I am reading this correctly: 1992 (debut with India, then dropped immediately), 1996 (back with India, first Test matches, 2000 (gained captaincy), 2005 (dropped from team), 2006 (comeback, not clear if he was renamed Captain), 2006? (loses Captaincy over Chappell incident, not clear if he was dropped from team as well), 2007 (recalled to team), 2007 (left team), 2008 (Tests with India team), 2008 (retires). Dropped from team: 3 times (if you count the chappell incident), left team once, and retired.Neonblak talk - 14:05, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The timeline is all in Chappell Ganguly controversy. He had a fight then was dumped, and then was called back after the newbies struggled. He wasn't dropped and then came back and hassled Chappell YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars photo poll) 03:52, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That article is just an epitome of unverified content added randomly. --Legolas (talk2me) 03:56, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's still in the right order, unlike the Ganguly article YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars photo poll) 04:04, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:VERIFIABILITY. --Legolas (talk2me) 04:07, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you can be arrogant all you want, but your ref contradicts what you say YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars photo poll) 04:08, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You pointed out a practically unreferenced article. Just *dead* :) :) --Legolas (talk2me) 04:09, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Read your cite. It is date in 2007 and talks about something two years earlier. This article lists the fight after his recall YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars photo poll) 04:16, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*I'm Confused* Why is that a problem? Anyways there are other sources supporting it. Can you please state what contradiction you find in the para? If you think that you can add something that will make it better, then please do it. --Legolas (talk2me) 04:21, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
??? Me? No I'm not confused. You can call me names and mock me if you want. Putting it out of order can confuse readers into thinking that after being recalled he may have then started to fight with Chappell, perhaps to spite him, instead of the other way around; that there was a fight and then he got dropped (possibly as a result) YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars photo poll) 04:29, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, your Bose book cites an ISBN that leads to this book But you cite a page in the 280s, but there is a glossary there and the main prose is already done. Also, the Tiwari quote is from a 2005 book, but Ganguly didn't take his 100th catch until 2007 [2] YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars photo poll) 04:29, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not saying you are confused, I'm saying that what you pointed out, confused me. Hence I asked you to state what is the correct order that you think? You can actually rearrange that section if you feel the order is misleading the readers. --Legolas (talk2me) 04:34, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Moved to YM's talk page as it is getting cluttered here. --Legolas (talk2me) 04:41, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think I got what YM is saying and have re-arranged the section so that it now states the dispute first, following which Ganguly was removed from captaincy. --Legolas (talk2me) 05:05, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good work by all involved, I believe this now meets all the critera for GA status. It is reasonable well written and conforms with WP:MOS; factually acurate and completely referenced with no original research; broad in its coverage, neutral, and stable; images conform and are relevant to the article. Thanks again for everyone's hard work, and spirit; that's what makes WP great.Neonblak talk - 06:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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