Talk:Sonic Adventure/Archive 2

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

The echidnas created the Master Emerald?

At the start of the Story section:

"Centuries ago, the planet was bestowed the seven Chaos Emeralds. These emeralds were a source of absolute power, and consequently it did not take long before wars broke out over who would control the Chaos Emeralds' seemingly unlimited power. A tribe of echidna (the ancestors of Knuckles) responded by creating a singular Master Emerald, which held powers that could control and neutralize the Chaos Emeralds."

I have watched my sister play Sonic Adventure DX: Director's Cut through, and as far as I can tell, there is no indication that Knuckles' ancestors created the Master Emerald. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the entire section I quoted, while it's never explicitly said in the game that it isn't true, there's nothing that solidly states that it is, either. Unless it was in the user manual, Sega announced that it was true, or it was something that was in the original that they cut out of the DX (not likely), I think it should be removed. I'm adding a "citation needed" in the meantime.--StoryMakerEchidna (talk) 20:29, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Sonic Adventure - reaction to Sonic R?!

In the 'Development' section of this article, it says that "Then Sega employee Yuji Naka had been unhappy with prior treatment of Sonic, especially in the Sega Saturn racing game Sonic R". However, this does not make sense. Not only did the development of Sonic Adventure start before Sonic R, but Sonic Team actually designed Sonic R (Traveller's Tales simply developed it based on Sonic Team's plan). Also, Sonic R formed a part of 'Project Sonic' (along with Sonic Jam) intended to stir up interest in the Sonic series in preparation for the next Sonic game (which turned out to be Sonic Adventure). It is possible that Yuji Naka was unhappy with the treatment of Sonic with Sonic Xtreme (and indeed, Sonic Xtreme was a victim of the infighting within Sega at the time, and Yuji Naka threatened to leave Sega if STI were allowed to use Sonic Team's Nights engine with Sonic Xtreme), but this would be pure speculation.

Since this specific section has no citation, I'd like to delete this line unless people have objections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mysticalliete (talk • contribs) 14:45, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Voice Acting

Could someone add a section on the voice acting in this game? Who were the voice actors, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.53.42.118 (talk) 05:58, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

GA

I am planning to improve this article, Sonic the Hedgehog (1991 video game) and Sonic Adventure 2, and nominate all three of them for GA simultaneously. Here's an outline of what we can do to improve this article to GA status.

Lead section - we can expand this into three or four paragraphs and mention re-releases as well.
Plot section - may need some expansion with game quotes
Development section - we should expand upon it as well.
Reception and legacy - may need a complete rewrite as well with expansion of the Dreamcast reviews as well as the PSN/XBOX reviews.
Citations - all dead citations need to be replaced.

All are welcome to assist in this process. If anyone has further suggestions, please feel free to post here. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 04:00, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Wow, that is ambitious! The original Sonic I don't feel is too far off, as I've worked on cleaning that one up a bunch, (before I started on it, it was a messy "Start Class" article, which was rather disappointing considering it's a rather iconic game, which was why I had worked on it some. I modeled it after Super Mario Bros., which is a GA. It does still need work to GA though, you are right. SA and SA2 are in much worse shape, in my opinion. I've never worked on them much myself because I didn't remember the game's rather ludicrous plot, and without being able to clean that up, I never motivated myself to clean up any of the rest either really.

Anyways, as I've said before, most Sonic games are on my watchlist, so I'll help here and there. Sergecross73 msg me 14:02, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Unless someone objects, I am going to nominate this for GA immediately since the peer review has closed. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 15:33, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Not an objection, but a quick fix I'd suggest. (I'd do it myself but I can't figure out the best wording.) I know I pointed it out in the Peer Review, and you changed it in the article's body, but it's reappeared in the lead. The current wording is "Amy Rose, Sonic's love interest", which sounds like Sonic is pursuing her, when in reality it's the opposite, and Sonic's pretty evasive/indifferent to her romantically. Sergecross73 msg me 15:42, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Done Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:04, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sonic Adventure/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: User:Darrman1 . talk · contribs 20:29, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Hello, I'm Darrman1 (call me Darrman) and I'll review this article for GA status. I have never played this game, but I have played older Sonic games so it's sort of, but not quite familiar. Anyway, let's go!

Opening: Fine.

Gameplay: The first and third paragraphs are refless, and the second has only one. More refs, please!

Plot:Characters: The bit about one of Eggman's robots being built with Dreamcasts looked odd. I put in a citation needed note. Otherwise, fine.

Plot, Story: In general, it seems as if the story goes a bit too in depth. Paragraph 1 needs sources. In fact, parts are sources, but others are blank. and Eggman will build Robotnikland over the city's ruins. Eggman, Robotnik... If the doctor is called Eggman everywhere else in this article, why Robotnik here? Sonic discovers that the Chao he once was guardian of now live in Station Square, What? That doesn't flow well. How is that meant to go?

Development: Ok...maybe a source or two inside the paragraph, unless the sources there cover the whole paragraph.

Rereleases: Game Gear games in GameCube need refs! One ref for the 12 should do.

Reception: Dreancast Gamepro review needs source. Otherwise, fine.

The Legacy section is citeless! So is Promotion and Tie-ins!

As for images, maybe the cover of the comic? Existing image's free-use rationales are fine, by the way.

Ref 47 is bare.

Hmmm... I'll give the nominator a few days to fix the problems, otherwise I'll fail the article. So this article is On hold. Darrman1 (talk) 20:29, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

All right. I will see what I can do to correct the problems here, especially with regards to sourcing. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:58, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Reference 47 has been updated. I'll see if I can find citations for development and release sections. I think the cover of the comic should work for me. I have to clarify the story section a bit too. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:34, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I just checked, Ref 47 has been fixed, and a ref has been found for Gameplay, about the two game modes. By the way, I think info about Trial mode would be nice, if that would be possible.--Darrman1 (talk) 19:27, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Very well then. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:01, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

For what its worth, in regards to the Eggman/Robotnik comment, in Japan, he was always Eggman, and in English speaking countries, he was exclusively Robotnik before Sonic Adventure, and exclusively Eggman after Sonic Adventure, but in Sonic Adventure itself, they kind of go back and forth on his name being Robotnik and Eggman. I know in the past Sjones has literally used the games themselves to source articles, so the game itself could have quite literally reffered to both Eggman and Robotnikland like that. Just my 2 cents. Sergecross73 msg me 13:11, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Yep, I still do that on some VG articles I have worked on (I.e. FFXIII). Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 15:40, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

- I took a look at the references, and refs 5, 6, 8 and 9 are bare. But at least you added refs. As well, refs 2, 3 and 49 are dead. (Someone came here a few days ago and tagged them with dead links.) Darrman1 (talk) 06:32, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Fixed the references. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 01:10, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Okay, it's been a week since the review started, so here's the criteria:

1. Well written

1a. Spelling and grammar
1b. MoS

2. Verifiable

2a. List of refs
2b. Reliable
2c. Original research

3. Broad in coverage

3a. Main aspects
3b. Focus

4. Neutral

5. Stable

6. Images

6a. Copyright, fair-use rationales
6b. Relevant, captions

7. Final comments: There's still a cite tag in Characters, and those citeless sections are still citeless, but the rest of the article is fine. Fix those last points before going for FA.

8. Pass/Fail: Article passed.

Full screen support

Sonic Adventure DX was released again on Steam on March 4, 2011 as a digital download across several platforms. It received generally negative reviews compared to its previous ports due to buggy gameplay and the inability to play in full screen mode (only windowed mode supported).^{[citation needed]}

I am not sure if they updated the software after release, but I own the Steam version of the game and play in full screen mode, so the above paragraph is at the very least not currently applicable. 174.116.114.124 (talk) 04:56, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps it was made available through an update or something? Regardless, the whole this is unsourced, so I just removed it. Sergecross73 msg me 16:52, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

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Sonic's 3d debut

Youtuber Nerdcubed posted information in his December 22nd video about Sonic Adventure being the second 3d sonic game, following 1997's Sonic Jam. While this is true, the current (at time of posting) wording is correct, in that Sonic Adventure is the first "main game" in the Sonic series to feature free roaming 3d gameplay. Please stop changing the article. CaptainPedge | Talk 17:35, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, and Youtubers like "NerdCubed" are not what Wikipedia would consider a reliable source, which usually be website with credentials, editorial oversight and policies, etc. Sergecross73 msg me 18:03, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

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Developer interview

In this interview, Takashi Iizuka explains why they created Chaos. However, I'm not so sure about using it since it appears to have been published by a random YouTuber. Any thoughts? JOE BRO 64 20:37, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

It was definitely published by an RS originally, it's just a matter of determining who/when. If you google "Sonic Adventure DX Director's Cut Commentary Iizuka" you will get some results on it. One website links to an interview on Sega of America's website, it could be this one. IGN published an interview video as well. However, I'm at work and the sites are blocked so I can't do further investigation at the moment. TarkusAB^talk 20:50, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Correct, you shouldn't be linking/citing random Youtubers. But was this some sort of professionally/officially done documentary work done for the game's director's cut release? If it was, it'd be acceptable to cite that directly as a first party source. However, if it's just some rando who just happened to get a hold of Iizuka and talk with him, no, probably not, especially considering you just put it up for a GAN... Sergecross73 msg me 20:53, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

The Sega of America link appears to be broken, and IGN just links to Worthplaying, an unreliable source. Worthplaying does have a download link for a video though; that might be it, but the site looks like it's got a reputation of hosting copyrighted content without permission (which is why it was considered unreliable)... JOE BRO 64 01:14, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Well, what do you know. It was already sourced in the article. JOE BRO 64 01:32, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Lead

Why does this keep getting changed? I was reverted on the grounds of 3D being "fan trivia" and "shoe-horned" into the sentence but it's one of the most important things about this game. It flows much better in the first, and we don't need to always say that they developed and published it in the first sentence; that sounds really robotic. Donkey Kong 64 follows this exact dame format and passed both a GAR and an FAC. JOE BRO 64 20:27, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

My argument was that the flow sounded better in the second paragraph, which discusses the game's development, than randomly plopped at the end of an already awkward/cluttered opening sentence. (Mentioning three genre in the opening sentence? Talk about excessive example bloat.) Sergecross73 msg me 20:36, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

I see now. I've reworded it so everyone's happy. Sorry for the inconvenience. JOE BRO 64 20:38, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm fine with the new version, so it's resolved, if it fixed Dissident93's concerns too. Sergecross73 msg me 20:45, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

The only issue I still see is the opening sentence. Is there any reason why its preferred to go with "1998 action-platform game for Sega's Dreamcast" over the more common "1998 action-platform game developed by Sonic Team and published by Sega for the Dreamcast"? Just because the second paragraph expands upon, doesn't mean it can't be like this. And as for your Donkey Kong FAC example, most of the other ones that I've seen tend to use the second format, so it seems to me you are using a (possibly) cherry picked example. At the very least, your format is extremely basic and should be expanded upon in another way. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:30, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

I feel like it's just sort of robotic for every page to be like that though. It also makes the first sentence longer than it has to be; I think it reads easier for someone who's not familiar with video games. JOE BRO 64 21:37, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Maybe, but it works as its easy to understand and helps set consistency across gaming articles. If this has to be different, then I propose something like "1998 action-platform game published by Sega for their Dreamcast video game console". Context should be given to what the Dreamcast even is, and some mention of the company involved in the game's production should be included too. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:39, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'll change it just a little bit. JOE BRO 64 21:41, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

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Pix'n Love History of Sonic

@TarkusAB: can you check what The History of Sonic the Hedgehog says about this game? I haven't used it yet and also don't have a copy of it myself. JOE BRO 64 20:22, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

There is a lot. I took pictures of the key passages here: [1]. If you zoom in you should be able to read. If you need proper scans for easier readability, I can do that too just let me know. TarkusAB^talk 02:20, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

There is much more than what you added. Are you unable to read it? Did you try zooming in? TarkusAB^talk 21:43, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

I just haven't gone through all the scans yet. Just added some more information. JOE BRO 64 22:04, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

I just expanded the article considerably. Still haven't gotten through all the book yet; once I do, I'm going to track down Retro Gamer #91 and see if I'm missing any scans from Sonic Retro. Probably gonna put it up at WP:GOCE too, since it's changed wildly since the GA review. JOE BRO 64 21:14, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Extra screenshot

I just wanted to discuss this before I'm too bold: does anyone think another screenshot for the gameplay section would be justified? I mean, there are six characters who all have considerably different controls and gameplay styles. Maybe we could format it the way the screenshots at Super Mario Odyssey are? JOE BRO 64 15:50, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

DC-UK review

There's a scan of the review on Out-of-Print Archive (pages 16-19): [2] --Mika1h (talk) 18:37, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Odd citation

The sentence “The camera system and glitches were criticized by many reviewers” was cited by this. This website claims to be talking about the Dreamcast port of the game, but instead of showing footage from the Dreamcast port, it shows footage from the HD remake, which was released for the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3. This is a problem, because it is reported that the Gamecube version—-which was released in 2003—-introduced certain glitches, like the infamous loop clipping glitch in Emerald Coast, that were otherwise not present in the Dreamcast version. And from that, the HD version carried those glitches over. Even if this weren’t the case, all the video proves is that the glitch shown in the video is existent in the HD version. If you’re going to claim something like a glitch in a video game, and then say it exists in a certain version, then you’d better have footage from the exact copy you have for the exact console, or the exact arcade cabinet you played it on, to prove it. Otherwise, what are you doing? (BlueBlurHog) 22:27 16 February 2021.

I've been under the impression that all versions of the game had significant camera issues, so I'm sure more sources can be found if the current one is found to be insufficient. I imagine this weak sourcing has remained because it takes an almost devils advocate mindset to challenge the assertion to begin with. Sergecross73 msg me 20:48, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Case in point, the most basic of google searches found a reliable source noting that people criticized the camera system almost instantly. Eurogamer. Sergecross73 msg me 20:52, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't see what the issue is here. The source says that the 1998 game was criticized for its glitches and camera. The fact it uses a screenshot from a later version doesn't change anything. JOE BRO 64 21:13, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

The issue is that to claim that a game was “ready in time for the Dreamcast's launch in 1999. Even though the game was available on day one, even contemporary reviews noted the abundance of bugs and glitches. The number of times Sonic glitched through the floor, got stuck on a step or juddered around like a rogue pneumatic drill did take a little of the shine off the jewel in the crown of Dreamcast's launch.” which is written at the top of the segment that talks about Sonic Adventure, the proof that the source presents to the reader is not from the Dreamcast version. To the unknowing reader, they’ll be thinking “it mist be the Dreamcast version.” But, to someone who knows what the Dreamcast version looks like, “this isn’t the Dreamcast port.” Let’s say you’re writing about your experiences with a sport (let’s say football), and instead describe rugby to prove your point. Are football and rugby the same sport? Last I checked, no. They’re similar, but not very similar. They’re different from each other down to the gear, player positions, point system, and rules. Similarly, the guy from the website described the Dreamcast version of Sonic Adventure, but fails to provide actual evidence from the Dreamcast version to back up his point. Cyberpunk 2077 was released not too long ago, and while the PC version was praised, the console versions were panned for cited glitches. If you talk about the game and say it’s glitchy and unfinished, but you’ve only played a console version, without Having any knowledge that only the version of the game that you played is bad, you’re not talking about the game as a whole, you”re only talking about that specific port. Though I agree, there are people that found glitches in the Dreamcast version, they still need to prove it by showing the glitches from the Dreamcast version. As well as say if it impedes the game and if it’s something that’s easily avoidable, or if you have to drop everything your doing and go out of your way to trigger it (not mandatory, but it’s better presentation). 16:51 6 April 2021 (BlueBlurHog)

The glitches were prominent in every iteration of the game, and are widely documented by reliable sources, so I still don't follow what exactly the issue is here. I mean, feel free to supply some extra sources if you think that one is insufficient, but there's no way you're getting the sentiment outright removed as some sort of falsity. Sergecross73 msg me 20:54, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Sergecross73, this user is simply complaining that the source uses a screenshot from a port, not the Dreamcast version. That's... not our problem. JOE BRO 64 21:00, 6 April 2021 (UTC)