Talk:Sinking of the RMS Lusitania/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Lusitania Manifest

Surely the manifest of the Lusitania should get a more rigorous examination? To cite the 1915 words of Herman Winter of the Cunard Line on the subject surely does not get us to the truth very far or fast. It appears to me that the findings of Colin Simpson's book The Lusitania (1973) should also be cited in this context. Simpson found an original of the Lusitania manifest in the papers of the Franklin Delano Roosevelt library. Roosevelt was the assistant secretary of the Navy at the time, and it makes a great deal of sense to cite Simpson as a counterweight to Winter on this issue. Winter was surely not a disinterested observer but represented the interests of the Cunard Line. You can find a review of Colin Simpson's book in the Modern Age Dec. 1973, p. 424+ which will help to bring you up to speed. You can find the article here: http://www.unz.org/Pub/ModernAge-1973q4-00423 --Menckenire (talk) 01:56, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Position - 18 minutes ?

The following centance contains an error "Lusitania sank in only 18 minutes, 11.5 miles (19 km).." What's ment by 18 minutes ? Longitude time-minutes ? If so the distance between each longitude and time-minute decreases in length towards the poles. Only at the equatior does a longitude time-minute eaquals a nautical mile. If "11.5 miles" is 11.5 nautical miles this equals 21.3 km. If by 11.5 miles is ment UK (land) miles then this equal 18.5 km (and 10.0 nm). If 18 minutes is ment "time minutes" - then You have to know at wich latitude. If its ment as "distance minutes" wcich are the same as nautical miles, nm, then problem still exist. 18 nm = 33.3 km or 20.7 UK mile.

I do not know myself which number that is correct. But here's a small convertion table

  • 1 nm = 1.852 km = 1.152 UK mile
  • 1 UK mile = 1.608 km = 0.868 nm
  • 1 km = 0.622 UK mile = 0.540 nm
  • (1 time minute is moving 270 deg West or 90 degr. East until local noon has changed 1 minute. That's a lot shorter at 80th latitude compared with at the equator, or latitude 0. I strongly recomend not using it for distances - but for east-western positions only, longitudes)

For any distances at sea or in the air, I recommend the use of nautical miles, nm. And knots for speed. 1 knot = 1 nm/h. On land both mile/km ought to be used. And somebody - please find out correct distance from the Irish shores to where the vessel sank. Boeing720 (talk) 05:14, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

It's clear from the intro it's 18 time-minutes and 11.5 land miles from shore. I changed the phrasing in the Sinking section so there's no ambiguity. -- Beland (talk) 01:02, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

POV wording with regard to international law.

The following sentence seems to betray a strongly pro-German POV:

'The "Prize rules" or "Cruiser rules", laid down by the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, governed the seizure of vessels at sea during wartime, although changes in technology such as radio and the submarine eventually made parts of them irrelevant.'

No country, except Germany, seemed to have a problem abiding by the prize rules and these rules were in effect as a part of treaty law between belligerents throughout the great war. Technologies and radio hardly rendered these parts of the Hague Convention irrelevant, they were quite relevant and this is demonstrated by the fact that their violation was largely responsible for the US joining the allies as an associated power in 1917. As an aside, the 1856 Declaration of Paris should probably also be included as part of the relevant treaties regulating prize rules. 2602:306:B8C7:11E0:9872:E19D:6FAF:D4ED (talk) 05:23, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

According to Bailey and Ryan, Lusitania was travelling without any flag and its name painted over with darkish dye

Seems to be wrong, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZOqw5XEaN0 The ship's name is clearly seen on the bow, Time Index 5:03 - 5:15. I suspect that older versions of this film have been exposed during copying, so the ship's name was not there to see.--RöntgenTechniker (talk) 23:11, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Navigational significance of Old Head of Kinsale

My understanding is that a German submarine was loitering in the area off Old Head of Kinsale because this was an important navigational point where a ship could definitively fix her position on approaching land after an Atlantic crossing. This might be a point lost to those who navigate by satellite rather than by sextant. The captain of the Lusitania was possibly unwise to close the Irish coastline at such a predictable point, but the alternative was to risk making a navigational error that would also imperil the ship.

I don't have any good sources to rely on as references to include the above (and it probably needs explaining a bit better) - but I presume that such sources are out there and may already be available to contributors to this article.

ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 23:18, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The Wanderer rescue

Why is there no mention here of the rescue by the fishing boat The Wanderer: [1]? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:45, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

"Dan O'Connell" and "The Elizabeth" rescues

This text was recently added to the "100th anniversary" section of the main article:

"Captain James Hagan of the 'Dan O'Connell' and Captain Edward White of 'The Elizabeth'
Both boats of the Arklow fishing Fleet were operating at the Old Head of Kinsale at the time of the attack on the Lusitania, and moved swiftly to the rescue of the passengers. Both Captains and their crew were commended for their help and bravery and rewarded by the Cunard Company with Certificates of Honor and £93.7s to share among their crews. Not only did these extraordinary fisherman rescue hundreds of survivors but they continued to go out over and over again to retrieve the bodies of the poor souls for burial in Cobh and the surrounding area. [source: The Irish Times, 9 December 1915, and The Sphere London, 1915."}

I have removed it from that article as it seemed more appropriate here. I'd suggest that this could possibly be added to this article, if the sources could be verified. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:46, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I find it quite shocking that the only mention of these boats in the article seems to be as "Irish fishermen" in a single image caption. These men were heroes and were recognised as such. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:04, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

last voyage and sinking/ departure

Did Detective Inspector William Pierpoint survive? It is not clear. Terry Thorgaard (talk) 14:35, 7 May 2015 (UTC) Ah: this source,http://www.rmslusitania.info/people/saloon/william-pierpoint/, indicates that he did survive. Terry Thorgaard (talk) 14:45, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

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Blockade addition

5.81.223.59 Please stop adding the same unsourced content to this article[2] and to RMS Lusitania[3]. If the blockade is directly related to the sinking of the Lusitania, you should have no problem providing a reliable source to support your additions. Until then, it's inappropriate to continue reinserting unsourced material. I've explained the reasoning at Talk:RMS Lusitania#Blockade as well. —PermStrump(talk) 17:39, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't know the previous discussion, but there is a clear and obvious link between the blockade and the submarine warfare. E.g. read Nicholas Lambert's book "Planing Armageddon". On page 425 he writes "The following day (29 May, 1915), (US President) Wilson met personally with the German ambassador in Washington, intimating that if Germany agreed to the complete cessation of submarine warfare he could persuade the Allies to end the blockade of foodstuffs." The Germans replied, "they would consider such an understanding only if the lifting of the blockade was broadened to include copper, cotton, rubber and such other raw material that does not directly enter into the manufacture of munitions of war". The UK made no concessions at all, despite their ambassador Sir Cecil Spring-Rice urgently warned his government, that "our food blockade, as applied to the civilian part of the German nation, is what tells chiefly against us in the public opinion of the United States" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnip_Winter). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:ED:F71F:6C00:79F9:D124:62C1:6D7E (talk) 18:13, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Barbara McDermott should really be merged here. There is already a section here that talks about Ms. McDermott and there is no notability for the individual besides being a survivor of the sinking. 96.232.112.252 (talk) 00:41, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

  • Oppose I can see no improvement as a result of this merger. However I would expect that the content merged would be negligible, rightly per WP:UNDUE, and thus we lose out. We are not short of space. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:40, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose Per Andy Dingley. Is fine as standalone article. ~ HAL333 18:21, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Merge nothing notable about her apart from being a survivor of the Lusitania sinking, not even the last survivor, but the last American survivor, she fails WP:GNG and this page should be deleted. Mztourist (talk) 07:05, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Merge I agree, her article fails WP:GNG to the extent that its a little ridiculous. Her longevity is the only notable fact and can be noted in the Lusitania article appropriately. Darrenr72 (talk) 08:10, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Merge, per WP:ONEEVENT. Note that I have also sent this to AfD. Benica11 (talk) 14:11, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Her? Does she have tits? lol

--Snippert (talk) 23:52, 22 August 2020 (UTC) Old misogynists still rule Wikipedia, I see. lmao

Safety systems

I see some sources online saying that according to Dead Wake, some passengers put their life vests on upside down, and ended up drowning as a result. If anyone has access to the book, that would be an interesting addition.

I'm also wondering if the problems with launching lifeboats and using life vests prompted any regulatory changes to improve the effectiveness of these safety systems? Or asked another way, would modern boats and vests have the same problems, and if not when were they changed? -- Beland (talk) 01:26, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

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