Talk:Sayyid dynasty

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Afghan ancestory

According to khafi khan , a mughal historian , syeds actually had afghan ancestory . Ozgharzai (talk) 15:05, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Misunderstanding

Here i am. So with all due respect you have very little if any knowledge about sayed dynasty, I am willing to discuss anything because i got a strong case (which is more than obvious). As i said before there is Very little information and literature regarding sayed dynasty's origins. And the claim of there lineage to prophet muhammad is generally rejected (as you might know). As for the punjabi origin, Only one scholar have hardly mentions it and (THATS IT).So the Afghan mention is Extremely important. and if not i really dont know how and why? And these are not my views these are all backed by scholarly research on topic which again should be obvious too. So lets all pot POV on side and honestly contribute.

Read WP:GOOD FAITH, Wikipedia:ASPERSIONS and WP:NPA and then write a new comment. It goes without saying that this is not how you have a proper discussion. Don't expect a reply with such a comment. Also, please read WP:AGE MATTERS as well. Also, I can't find a single mention of the Sayyid dynasty being Afghan in Tribe, Diaspora, and Sainthood in Afghan History. If you continue to edit war you will get reported. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:19, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

As you can see i am not edit warring or reverting. And sorry if you take it personal (intention was not that).My comment about having less knowledge was only meant about giving info as of cooperating not degrading. But it is just i see something very obvious being undone. You are right about the sources being old but as i said there is (very, really very) little literature about the topic, so what ever we have is very precious (that's why i didn't even delete the punjabi origin which doesn't have any support at all).So i really hope you reconsider it.

Even if that was the case; then so what? that's not a valid argument. Not to mention you still have nothing to back up that they were Afghans. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:38, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

O.k what the other editor had that he is punjabi? he had a source (only one) saying, that. And lineage of prophet muhammad (which is rejected), with all due respect what you want me to have? I gave a very important primary souce and 2 important secondary sources ( which Again are VERY rare considering he topic at hand. .

I'm gonna repeat myself one final time; two of the sources you cited are literally the same, i.e. The History of India, as Told by Its Own Historians: The Muhammadan Period, which is from 1867, in other words outdated. Moreover, it also seems to be a translation of primary sources (read WP:PSTS). The third source Tribe, Diaspora, and Sainthood in Afghan History. does not even mention them. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:50, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I think you should pay attention to what i am saying. The first source is old BUT NOT outdated as i have mention 3 times that we have - very little- known about sayeds. That is pretty much what we have. The second source does mention them, just log in and read. And the book mentions them in an accepting manner, agreeing we really dont have to doubt that do we.

This is starting to sound like WP:TENDENTIOUS. Ironically you are the one not paying attention. Click the guidelines and read them. And if indeed the source mentions the Sayyids being Afghans, please show the quote for it and its page. If not, then I think we're done here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:10, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

It is really difficult to discuss in a situation where any proof or not will not change the outcome, is it not true? and i did read all guidelines thats why i am presenting my case according to wiki rules. I will really encourage you (respectfully) to study more about sayed dynasty, i am sure you will change your postion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.211.44.191 (talk) 16:19, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I simply asked you to provide proof that the Sayyids are called Afghans in the one reliable source there was, which you were unable to. No, this discussion is over. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:24, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi. I think we have solved the problem here. Now we have 3 sources.

1-the primary source in the form of book (muntakhabul- lubab).

https://archive.org/details/cu31924073036778/page/n415/mode/2up

2- The (old) secondary source in the form of book (The History of India, as Told by Its Own Historians: The Muhammadan Period)

https://books.google.no/books?id=P_yZMy1fxsUC&pg=PA404&lpg=PA404&dq=he+khizr+khan+was+by+origin+and+by+names+of+his+ancestors+afghan&source=bl&ots=vgUMvivFbn&

And now the 3- secondary source in the form of book(African Elites in India: Habshi Amarat). Very recent, Published in 2006.(Kenneth X. Robbins, ‎John McLeod)

https://books.google.no/books?id=4xduAAAAMAAJ&q=african+elites+in+india+book&dq=african+elites+in+india+book&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y

- Book is not open but as you told me i have copied the sentence for you..

"There are suggestions that Mubarak Shah was an Afghan and related to Khizr Khan Sayyid , the Afghan sultan of Delhi.."

Now i think we have enough material to mention Afghan in the origins. I really hope you go forward and edit it the way you think is appropriate. Thank you.

Again, you are more or less repeating yourself (as you have done various times now). Read the guidelines, especially WP:RS. Last warning, next time you will get reported to WP:ANI for Wikipedia:Tendentious editing. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:32, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

.Hi. Here is an important secondary -published source.

https://books.google.no/books?id=XrJoBgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=history+of+india++khizr+khan++afghan+john+e+mcleod&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbsfbll532AhV_Q_EDHee_B5IQ6AF6BAgHEAI#v=onepage&q=khizr%20khan&f=false84.211.45.132 (talk) 11:16, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Here is another published source (book) by David abram. There might be even more books, but i think we have enough secondary sources already.

https://books.google.no/books?id=yi4PbmKuE70C&pg=PT1276&dq=khizr+khan+afghan&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiMyY2e0K_2AhVDAhAIHc9mC4g4FBDoAXoECAoQAg#v=onepage&q=khizr%20khan%20afghan&f=false 84.211.45.132 (talk) 18:55, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Still not reliable, consider reading WP:RS. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:17, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

You can see both new edits in sayid dynasty origins are "unpublished sources" according to wikipedia. Same was mine with African elites in india which if you Research is considered ground breaking work. I know no action will be taken ,hence wikipedia among students-acadamics is becoming a bad joke. Thanks. 178.232.108.161 (talk) 14:27, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

RfC on Afghan inclusion (closed; see below for new Rfc on this topic)

{{rfc|origin|rfcid=2DECBAC}}

Note: are you here to vote on an Rfc? This is not it; see the section below this one.

Hi.I think i have explained myself and "fulfilled" every obligation i was asked for inclusion of Afghan in the origin section. Rest is up-to you guys.84.211.45.132 (talk) 17:24, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Note: IP 84, I have commented out the RFC header for now; please rephrase your Rfc question so that it can be answered by responders here with a Yes or No response. In addition, I'm not sure you've read and complied with WP:RFCBEFORE; please make sure that you have discussed this sufficiently to meet these conditions, and then restore the Rfc header. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 19:08, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (Summoned by bot) Please read WP:RFCOPEN and try again, providing an actual neutral statement that people can discuss. — {{u|Bsoyka}} ^talk 19:11, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Ping Mathglot and Bsoyka. I was invited by bot. I'm notifying you that the RFC was reopened below. The new RFC-statement still isn't great, but for what it's worth I investigated and attempted to assist any future RFC-respondents. My response attempts to pull together the relevant background and the relevant sources. You may (or may not) find it helpful. Alsee (talk) 20:18, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks for the ping. — {{u|Bsoyka}} ^talk 20:24, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi.I have tried reaching consensus and involving third party but failed. O.K i will rephrase.84.211.45.132 (talk) 19:19, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Retitled the section header and added hatnote above to avoid confusion among editors arriving on this page for the first time. Nice job on the summary, Alsee, thanks very much! Mathglot (talk) 22:12, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

I got one simple question;

How can one mention of khizr khan by just one single author (Eaton) makes it mainstream, while Afghan which is mentioned by historical primary sources such as- muntakhabul lubab and many secondary sources by respected authors makes it fringe? I cant take hold of that logic. Thank you.Mathglot 84.211.45.132 (talk) 22:32, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Looks like this has just been closed in the section below. Sometimes, one just doesn't end up getting an answer to a question in the way one might like. An alternative venue for you to try would be the WP:Help desk. Good luck, Mathglot (talk) 23:08, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Sorry i know nothing will work here but here is ACTUALLY my --sixth-- source . I know its funny but couldnt help my self.

https://www.amazon.com/India-Condensed-Years-History-Culture/dp/9812616209 178.232.108.161 (talk) 14:35, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

https://books.google.no/books?id=b7-IAAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=condeensed+history+of+india&hl=no&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=%20afghan&f=false 178.232.108.161 (talk) 19:47, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Actually the author of that book, Anjana Motihar Chandra, is a wellness coach and has no academic specialization in this area or time period(ie. not an historian). Therefore, not a WP:RS.--Kansas Bear (talk) 20:33, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I am saying if Anjana is not a historian fine, what about other 5 sources? I mean what is wrong with John Mcleod, he is a history professor who's subject is indian history. Why not he is a credibale source? He have many honors (even from indian goverment) for his work and is teaching at the respectable University of Louisville. 46.212.40.72 (talk) 19:23, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Just exactly what do you hope to gain from this? That a one word mention of ethnicity, from Mcleod, should be added(somewhere?) to a dynasty, which had nothing Pashtun/Afghan in their culture, religion, or government? An ethnicity which is disputed by Eraly's Arab and Eaton's Punjabi sources(both mentioned in one word sentences) for ethnicity? What was the culture of this dynasty? What language did they speak day-to-day? What type of influences are shown in their architecture? What language was used on their coins? Your insistence on a specific ethnicity, since the RFC went against you, seems POV and tendentious. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:04, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

It is not a matter of what i gain from this which is nothing, but i see something unjust and wrong and try to fix it. And for culture his entire army were Afghans.His surname (malik) was only used by Afghans in that period in indian subcontinent.etc etc. I can ask the same question from you, why arab and punjabi origin is mentioned (with less sources') and Afghan (with multiple primary and secondary sources) is singeled out and not mention in just three words? Dont you think its unjust and unfair? 46.212.40.72 (talk) 22:33, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

• "but i see something unjust and wrong and try to fix it."

See WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS

• "And for culture his entire army were Afghans."

Unsourced. Culture has nothing to do with an army. Which means you do not understand what culture means.

• "His surname (malik) was only used by Afghans in that period in indian subcontinent.etc etc."

Unsourced.

• "I can ask the same question from you, why arab and punjabi origin is mentioned (with less sources') and Afghan (with multiple primary and secondary sources) is singeled out and not mention in just three words?"

Wikipedia is written using reliable secondary/tertiary sources. Primary sources, if used, have to be directly mentioned and sourced by secondary sources. The Arab ethnicity source is written by an academic historian(who apparently says something you do not like), while the Punjabi ethnicity source is written by an academic historian(who apparently says something you do not like). All you have one source that says "Pashtun" en passant and nothing else about their origin. Compared to Eraly's quote, which is in the reference, and even the Eaton source gives more than just a passing mention.

• "Dont you think its unjust and unfair?"

That you do not like what 2 academic historians say? Sounds like a personal problem.

So far you have brought a singular source that makes a passing mention of perceived ethnicity. You made two assertions without any sources, thus can only be considered your opinion. So instead of respecting the RFC you have chosen to continue your POV pushing. Since this has been addressed per RFC, continue this at your own risk. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:03, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I know now (unfortunately) how wiki works and nothing will be done -and doesnt matter because its wiki-. But you have made a pile of reactionary ,mistakes so i have to answer for a last time.

1- Right great wrongs what?`while primary source is centuries old and sir elliots book is over a century old!

2- By culture i meant thier names etc, I know culture and you dont assume things about someone you dont know.

3- If you have read my sources and had slight knowledge on term malik (google it) espacially on indian sub continent you wouldnt even ask this question.

4- I have nothing on Arab or punjabi friends, all i was saying is that Afghan origin is more frequently written about then the other two.

5- I can ask you the same question- that you dont like the other 7 acadamic sources?

anyway now i know why wiki is NOT considerd a source by everyone even wikipedia itself.178.232.61.65 (talk) 21:21, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

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