Talk:Richard Tice

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Just a three-sentence biography before Brexit and June 23, 2016[edit]

Now that this man and his co-founder in Leave.EU has managed to do the unexpected, can we have more information about his background and motives instead of just three measly sentences? Titus III (talk) 00:01, 25 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Of course - please go ahead and expand the article! Edwardx (talk) 08:57, 25 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed all statements (presented as fact) that were referenced by Richard Tice's personal website MachineMac (talk) 22:56, 17 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Access dates removed[edit]

Bizarrely, this edit removed a bunch of access dates from citations; they have never been restored, and it's now too late for it to be reverted. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:58, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of referenced material[edit]

I am concerned about a recent series of edits, removing properly referenced material, by an editor called "Associated Print". I do not want to get into any edit conflict or make unsubstantiated allegations, but could there be a case for checking out the neutrality of this editor? Wikipedia is not a hagiography. Viewfinder (talk) 09:12, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:JOBTITLES[edit]

@Emeraude: Thanks for your inputs on my recent structuring of the article. However, I still think we should edit the lead to make it in line with MOS:JOBTITLES. In a previous edit summary, you wrote: MOS:JOBTITLES is specific - lower case. I am not sure what you mean by this seeing as the policy states unmodified titles of formal offices should be captitalised. Per WP:BRD, I thought it best to bring this up on the talk page. Alex (talk) 00:56, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's quite simple. What MOS:JOBTITLES says is that if you are writing about a job you use lower case e.g. "Elizabeth Windsor is a queen" or "Montgomery was promoted to the rank of fieldmarshal". If using someone's title, you use upper case, e.g. "The UK is ruled by Queen Elizabeth" or "D-Day was planned by Fieldmarshal Montgomery". In the case of Tice, he is a leader, not Leader, as in Donald Trump was a president. Emeraude (talk) 11:15, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Emeraude: You are right in your use of the specific examples there but you're ignoring quite what the whole policy says, leading to a misreading. Leadership posts in political parties are formal offices, which the policy specifically refers to. Looking at the list of examples, we see quite clearly if the sentence were Tice was promoted to Leader in March 2021, this would be incorrect. However, Richard Tice is a British politician who has served as Leader of Reform UK since 2021 is in line with the policy.

The reason Trump's title is given lower case is that in American English and American politics, such titles are modified so their formal numbering may be included. So if the sentence were Richard Tice is a British politician who has served as the 3rd leader of Reform UK since 2021, then this would be the correct reading of the policy. However in British English and British politics, we don't use formal number of political offices so such a modifier is unnecessary. Alex (talk) 14:12, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am well aware of what Britsh usage is, having used it for nearly 70 years. I have read the whole of MOS:JOBTITLES and only proper names, languages, the first word in a sentence and prefixed honorifics (Mr, Capt, Sir, Lord) have caps in English. Job titles, whether "soldier", "shop assistant", "plumber", "member of parliament" or "leader" do not. Emeraude (talk) 15:16, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Emeraude: It seems to me that you must be unwittingly omitting parts of the full text from your understanding, leading to a crucial misunderstanding of the policy. You are right that "leader" itself should not be capitalised. I myself follow this rule from the policy consistently, for example whenever I refer to a UK party leader (many others erroneously edit this to UK Party Leader). However, a full formal office such as Leader of the Conservative Party or Leader of the Labour Party should be capitalised if not preceded by a modifier. For example, Boris Johnson is a British politician who has served as Leader of the Conservative Party since 2019 or indeed Richard Tice is a British politician who has served as Leader of Reform UK since 2021. Alex (talk) 20:07, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Alex B4: "Theresa May was the prime minister of the United Kingdom." "Theresa May is a former prime minister of the United Kingdom." I quote directly from from MOS:JOBTITLES. So, "Richard Tice is leader of Reform UK." (The only "leaders" I can recall who demanded capitals were il Duce and der Fuhrer (though, to be fair, all nouns take a capital in German!).) Emeraude (talk) 21:27, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Emeraude: I see where you're getting yourself confused. The example of Theresa May is a former prime minister of the United Kingdom is modified, as explained by the table and preceding text. The example of Richard Tice is a British businessman and politician who has served as Leader of Reform UK since 2021 is unmodified making it akin to Theresa May became Prime Minister of the United Kingdom in 2016 or Richard Nixon was President of the United States (both examples given as unmodified, formal titles which should be capitalised). I should also add that his job is politician and businessman (and also party leader and chairman) whereas his role as Leader of Reform UK is his formal title, hence why it should be capitalised per the third example of capitalisation listed on the policy's page: When a formal title for a specific entity (or conventional translation thereof) is addressed as a title or position in and of itself, is not plural, is not preceded by a modifier (including a definite or indefinite article), and is not a reworded description. Hope this helps clear things up. Alex (talk) 22:17, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Emeraude: Do you wish to discuss further or can we draw the discussion to a close and I can proceed with the proposed edit to the lead? I'm just aware it's been a couple of days now and I want to avoid WP:STONEWALLING. Alex (talk) 10:51, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done it, with a bit of tidying up as well. Emeraude (talk) 12:34, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]