Talk:Pogradec/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Whoever is editing this page: there is no Macedonian community in Pogradec, and the town itself has never been Macedonian. Some editing here has been onesided, outright calling the Albanian view as propaganda created in WWII. The Macedonian version of the name is not appropriate to be placed on here because it serves no specific link.--PG-Rated 17:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not too sure about this. What records? "The demographic distribution records a typical indigenous mixture, mostly of Albanians and ethnic Slavs (from whom the name Pogradec is derived), often claimed by the Macedonian government." - --PG-Rated 14:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a virtual battleground for Balkan disputes. I removed the Macedonian name "Подградец" from the article. Despite Pogradec is close to Macedonia and might naturally have some links with the latter, that does not justify the Macedonian version of the town to be kept in the article. Anyone interested in learning the Macedonian name just needs to click for the Macedonian article about this town.--Húsönd 17:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank You!--PG-Rated 05:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you're forgetting that the very origin of the town's name is Macedonian. --AimLook 14:54, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Sofia and Naples are both toponyms of Greek origin, but the greek version of the name has not been included in neither of the relative articles. If you want to explain the ethymology of the toponym, you can do it below, but I would recommend you not to use the cyrillic alphabet since it is unreadable for the common English speaker. Asdreni (talk) 14:36, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Disputes?

Well what are the disputes?--PG-Rated 04:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

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Synth?

Pogradec lies on the southern coast of Ohrid lake. What's weird is claiming SYNTH when the source states that "people X inhabited the area south of Ohrid-Prespa (lakelands)". On the other hand SYNTH would be if saying that "people X inhabited the wider region of Lychnidos" which doesn't necessary include Pogradec (Enchelae were located on the northern cost of this lake).Alexikoua (talk) 19:13, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

They are located around this lake and the adjacent areas; the Enchelei were one time the most powerful tribe of the region (historically supported by different ancient sources). While you added that info as a fact, it is only a hypothesis by Hammond that is disputed by other scholars as there are not historical accounts about it. Moreover, Hammond's hypothesis derives by the fact that the Dexari are mentioned by Hecataeus as a people adjacent of the Enchelei: Hecataeus, writing in the latter part of the sixth century...The Chaones, a very powerful group of tribes in northern Epirus, extended at that time into the southern part of the lakeland; for one of their tribes, the Dexaroi, was adjacent to the Encheleae (FGrH 1 F 103). The name 'Dexaroi' is obviously his form of 'Dassaretai', after whom the area was called Dassaretis. Then his assumption of making the Chaonians the inhabitants of the southern lakeland derives by this: The rulers then who were buried in Kuci Zi Tumulus II were presumably Chaonian. This hypothesis may be acceptable for the Korça plain, but here it is WP:SYNTH. – Βατο (talk) 19:53, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Suggestion? assumption? I don't thing so, that's a clear conclusion by CAH:

The Chaones, a very powerful group of tribes in northern Epirus, extended at that time into the southern part of the lake land; for one of their tribes, the Dexaroi, was adjacent to the Encheleae... On the other hand the Encheleae were an Ilyrian group of tribes, of which the centre was north of Lake Ochrid on the upper Drin

Thus, simply speaking Chaones lived in an area that stretched to the southern part of lake Ohrid-Prespa. No hypothesis, no suggestion and this needs to be stated in the arhttps://www.google.gr/ticle: Pogradec is located on the south coast of Ohrid. SYNTH would be to say that the Encheleei that lived north of Ohrid inhabited the entire on the southern coast too.Alexikoua (talk) 20:05, 10 May 2020 (UT118 epirusC)

Even the map presented by CAH in p. 262 points that this area was Chaonian territory (without assumptions).Alexikoua (talk) 20:10, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

The rulers then who were buried in Kuci Zi Tumulus II were presumably Chaonian is a suggestion. The assumption Dassaretians = Chaonians is disputed by other scholars, while Dassaretis = Chaonia is WP:OR. The map does not indicate that they lived exactly in the area of Pogradec. Also there are many other maps that place them in other positions. Wilkes at page 93 is more clear about the Enchelei, I added a quote to support their inclusion. – Βατο (talk) 20:33, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Kuci Zi isn't located in Ohrid. You understand that this is completely irrelevant. CAH is quite clear that this is a Chaonian region. Something that you insist against simply per IDONTLIKEIT. Also the fact that Dexari is a Chaonian subtribe is stated even in Wilkes.Alexikoua (talk) 20:48, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

.Alexikoua

Though not related with your Kuci zi claim, CAH concludes that the plain of Korce was in Chaonian (or Molossian control) without assumption:

We may conclude, then, that the archaeological division corresponded to a tribal division: the Illyrian tribes holding northern Illyris, and the Epirotic tribes, whether Chaonian or Molossian, holding the plain of Korce

.21:16, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Khirurg, it is disputed by a recent source: Brill's Companion to Ancient Macedon (2011), p. 342: What were Perdiccas' Illyrian victors doing meanwhile? Their own king Bardylis was king of a realm along Lake Ohrid and east to the two Prespa Lakes, the "Dassaretis" of later topography, not "Dardania", as Hammond postulated... While the view bout Enchelei around Ohrid is accepted aslo by Hammond (1966) and many others, not only Wilkes. Also the info you added is not directly related to Pogradec and Lychnidus. – Βατο (talk) 17:32, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Bato: per CAH Chaonians inhabited the area south of the lakeland i.e. Pogradec. Can't be more than clear, wp:OWN can be disruptive in some cases. But as per AGF I accept your version too (though it mentions the region of Lichnidos in a very generic way).Alexikoua (talk) 17:39, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

@Alexikoua, you are edit warring without taking into account that I have provided above a reliable recent source (2011) that disputes that. – Βατο (talk) 17:51, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Actually it contradicts nothing and the fact that the Dexari inhabited the area south of the lakelands isn't disputed (if it was occupied by a foreign king it's ok, nothing against it). Again you display persistent IDONTLIKE against Cambridge Ancient History. Take it to RSN, else it can be considered really disruptive. Should I scan you the exact map with the label 'Dexari' south of Ohrid c. 220B.C? Alexikoua (talk) 17:59, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

if it was occupied by a foreign king it's ok, nothing against it, WP:OR with misuse of that source. I don't display IDONTLIKE, all points of view should be taken into consideration, especially if there is a dispute by recent reliable sources. There are many Maps, one also by Hammond, that place the Enchelei south of Ohrid, and the Dexari south of them. – Βατο (talk) 18:16, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

wp:OR is to pretend that the south of the lakeland was not inhabited by the Dexari: 3 maps all them display the same label in the south of this lake. Here is a fourth map [[1]] with Pelium in sw of Ohrid & Ecnhelei west of it. It's published at 2011.Alexikoua (talk) 18:24, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Which era are we referring to? By Alexander's time regardless of this dispute, Pellium was Illyrian. The Siege of Pelium was against Illyrian tribes.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:19, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Comment Pogradec was founded by Slavs, wasn't it? So why all this ancient history? --Calthinus (talk) 19:15, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Cal maybe you could expand that aspect of the article.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:19, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Too much on my plate for that. Yeah the whole area is full of Slavonyms. Albonyms present too, kind of outnumbered, the Albo ones tend to be more rural places and refer to real peasant activities (Dardhe -- pear growing, Dardhas -- pear growing... etc). Though it seems the page notes the settlement is on top of an Illyrian settlement; the old Slavoname of the town was Starova, you know, "old". So maybe I was wrong. This is my OR by the way. --Calthinus (talk) 19:25, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Still though I think my point stands. There is a lot of talk about things that happened near Pogradec, or even just stuff near lake Ohrid. If they are not clearly connected to Ohrid by the source, that raises some questions about scope. --Calthinus (talk) 19:26, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Calthinus you propose a removal of pre-Pogradec history in history section as in Korce? Alexikoua (talk) 19:34, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Ohrid refers to a much wider region and there isnt just the Albanian part of the lake. Alexikoua (talk) 19:37, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, which is the problem. And that was what I was originally saying. If the city originated as an Illyrian one that was Slavicized that can stay if the source does in fact say that. But I'm not sure why stuff that is about the Ohrid region should be here. Can be moved to the lake's page, idk. --Calthinus (talk) 19:39, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

These two paragraphs are the two that seem scope-dubious to me at present: "In the Balkan Eneolithic period there were settlements on piles at the north end of Lake Ohrid by the outflow; at the east end of Lake Malik by the outflow; on one side of Lake Prespa; on the east side of Lake Kastoria; and on one side of Lake Rudnik (Khimadhitis). The later settlements at Malik were not on piles; the level of that Lake was lower throughout the Bronze Age. When Polybius wrote of the account which was used by Strabo,[6] there were two lakes near Lychnidus with their own self-supporting factories for pickling fish. The two lakes which satisfy this description are Lake Ohrid and Lake Prespa. [para] In antiquity it was located in the region of southern Illyris.[7] According to John Wilkes, the area around the lake Lychnidus was inhabited by the Illyrian tribe of the Enchelii,[8], while according to Nicholas Hammond, the area south of the lake was inhabited by the Dexaroi, a member tribe of the Chaonians of the northwester Greek group.[9]. Most readers don't give a crap about ancient demographics anyways. --Calthinus (talk) 19:49, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Hey @Calthinus: a rather different matter but since you mentioned the Slavic past of the place. The article says that the name comes from Slavic words for "under the city". It has no source. Elsie instead says “by the town". Which one is better? Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:58, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

@Calthinus, I agree, if sources do not refer directly to the city, the content can be removed. However your previous suggestion is right: in Pogradec Castle archaeologists have found Illyrian artefacts (Anamali 1979, "Kështjella e Pogradecit"). – Βατο (talk) 20:01, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Ktrimi991 Elsie is not RS for linguistics, he regularly fucks it up. For example, he states the replacement of some Turkish word with qytet in some text is because qytet is native; qytet is a Latin loan as are most words with the suffix -tet in Albanian (< Latin -tas cf vertet < Latin veritas; it's also productive still today -- realitet etc.). I didn't realize there was no source. We should just delete it. On a personal curiosity level, *po in Proto-Slavic means "by, near, after", while *pod' means "under". --Calthinus (talk) 20:05, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Or we can add Anamali in its place. --Calthinus (talk) 20:06, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, if Anamali elaborates on the matter we should add content sourced to him. There is Gjovalin Shkurtaj too but he just says that the name is of Slavic origin without explaining the meaning. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:17, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Anamali 1979, hmmm this reminds me on something. Richard Hodges, William Bowden, Kosta Lako have something to state about Anamali 1979:

"Towns, and more specifically urban continuity, were also a persistent theme in the archaeology of post-war communist Albania. Cultural continuity emerged as both an objective and a by-product of the potent blend of nationalism and Marxism that dominated archaelogical thought in the communist Balkan states. Albania was no exception to this, and towns figured large in the debate (see, for example, Anamali 1979-80), with continuity of occupation suggested at sites such as Lissos (Anamali 1979–80) and Pogradec (Anamali 1975). Behind these interpretations lay an explicit nationalist motive, as Enver Hoxha made clear in a speech"

Cultural continuity, nationalist motive, authoritative regimes... Thus, this might raise concerns about the reliability of this work, right? Alexikoua (talk) 07:04, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: Saying that Pogradec has a Slavic past is no "nationalist motive". Are you claiming it does not have? Ktrimi991 (talk) 11:40, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

It is reliable for archaeological finds, as Anamali and Ceka were the leading figures of archaeology in Albania in the last half of the 20th century. Some of the statements in sources like CAH, Hammond, Wilkes, Stipčević etc. are based from their works. By the way, about Illyrians in the region, and in particular in Pogradec, we have these statements:

Hammond (1994, CAH vol. VI, pp. 427–428): The burials were those of warrior-rulers and their women, and the weapons and the ornaments buried with them were related not only to each other but to those in the tumulus-burials of Metohija and Kosovo, home of the Dardanii, and of central Yugoslavia, where a distinctive Illyrian culture has been called the Glasinac culture. In most of these areas tumulus-burial continued into the fourth century B.C.; and it occurred less often in the hellenistic period. On the other hand, there is no evidence of any settlement worthy of the name until the second half of the fourth century B.C. Remains of a few hovels without any roof-tiles were found on the hill of Pogradec and dated by a few sherds to before 360 B.C. Burials of ordinary people have not been found. And in page 440: He did so decisively in 335 B.C. (see below). After the decisive victory in Illyris the long pursuit by his cavalry resulted in the submission of the rebellious kings, Glaucias of the Taulantians and Cleitus of the Dardanians. Meanwhile, his ally the king of the Agrianians ravaged the lands of the Autariatae, who had planned to support the rebels. In the next year he took Illyrian troops to Asia, no doubt as Philip would have done, and he summoned many others, e.g. 3,000 in autumn 331 B.C. Returning warriors brought new forms of wealth and new ideas to their tribes, and towards the end of the century small urban centres began to develop in southern Illyris, where Illyrians and Greeks were in close proximity; for instance, at Krotine (Dimale or Dimallum), Irmaj, Berat and Pogradec. The most remarkable monument of Macedonian influence is to be seen at Lower Selce by the upper Shkumbi in the rock-cut facaded tombs which have startling similarities to the largest tomb at Vergina (Philip's Tomb) and to the 'Tomb of Amyntas' at Fethiye (Telmessus). One thinks of an Illyrian officer of Alexander's army and his descendants ruling over the Parthini.
Wilkes (1992, The Illyrians, p.130): After 350 BC Illyrian towns are believed to have become established at Lissus (Lezha) and Shkoder and in the interior at Antipatreia (Berat) and also at Selce e Poshtme in the Shkumbin valley, a suggested location for Pelion.
Stipčević (1976, "Simbolismo illirico e simbolismo albanese", p. 235): Dall'Albania si possono citare i seguenti rinvenimenti archeologici finora pubblicati: /. Nelle vicinanze di Selce se Poshtme presso Pogradeci, in una tomba del III. secolo prima della n.e. fu trovato un cinturone rappresentante una scena di combattimento. Dietro le spalle di un combattente è incisa la figura di un grande serpente-evidentemente il suo protettore. Cfr. Shqipëria arkeologjike, Tirana, 1971, fig. 47. Un similissimo cinturone fu recentemente rinvenuto anche nella necropoli di Gostilj presso il Lago di Scutari nel Montenegro in Jugoslavia. – Βατο (talk) 08:45, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

I mentioned some serious concerns raised by Richard Hodges, William Bowden, Kosta Lako about Anamali etc.. I'm sure the are also RS on this subject Stipcevic, Wilkes and Hammond are good ones.Alexikoua (talk) 11:48, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Ok yeah I agree with replacing Anamali on this. On the name being Slavic he can be used, not on the continuity with the Illyrian settlement. --Calthinus (talk) 20:08, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Let's start by at least removing all the Eneolithic stuff. I think we all agree on that. Khirurg (talk) 01:34, 13 May 2020 (UTC)