Talk:Petrovice u Karviné

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Mention in 1305[edit]

@FromCzech: Your edit is based on apparently unreliable website. Liber fundationis episocpatus Vratislaviensis does not mention Petri villa at all. See for yourself. D_T_G (P L) 12:20, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@D T G: The official website of the municipality and the official publication written by the director of the Provincial Archive in Opava, where documents and copies of documents with the first mentions of villages in the region are kept, issued on the 700th anniversary of the first mention of Petrovice, are very reliable sources. And nowhere is it written that this mention must be in Liber fundationis episocpatus Vratislaviensis, only the year is written. FromCzech (talk) 12:47, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are no other historical sources mentioning any village in the Duchy of Teschen from that specific year attributed to the Bishop of Wrocław, it must have been that very famous Liber fundationis. Idzi Panic explicitly mentions that there is a common misconception among local historians that Petri villa was mention in 1305 aka Liber fundationis, but it was not. I've read dozens of regional monographies and or articles about local villages myself and many of them are sadly unreliable. Do you have that one at your disposal? D_T_G (P L) 12:56, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to question a major local historian who has first-hand access to the document, please contact that institution directly. Maybe they'll scan you a copy of that document. FromCzech (talk) 13:15, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Do they have anything from before 1377 anyway? (Mezi nejvzácnější archiválie patří středověké pergamenové listiny, panovnické konfirmace a městské knihy. Nejstarší je pergamenová listina z 18. února 1377, která potvrzuje nadaci těšínského knížete Přemka farnímu kostelu ve Fryštátě.). D_T_G (P L) 14:18, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@FromCzech: Hajzlerová absolutely meant Liber fundationis episcopatus vratislaviensis and that section about the first mention doesn't look solid. D_T_G (P L) 15:52, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I verify the information via email to the archive and, if necessary, I will return it to its original form. FromCzech (talk) 07:04, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, you were right, I apologize. To cut a long story short, Hosák took over the information from Vincenc Prasek, but who never published such a statement, and other authors uncritically took over the data from Hosák. Recently (therefore after the 2006 book was published) the year 1335 began to take place, as you pointed out. The website of the municipality has not been updated yet. FromCzech (talk) 12:58, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Now I wonder where exactly the mention of the "manor house called Dolní Soběšovice, owned by Soběk" in 1227 comes from. The only source I know of from 1227 that speaks of any place within the region is this one (page 13, document no. VI) where the Pope confirms the ownership of Orlová for Benedictines. On the page 19 you can read the transcript of the document from 1229, where the ownership of, among others, Těrlicko is attested, and like, literally, not "probably" as you wrote today in the article about the village. There was a debate among historians whether the founding document of the Orlová monastery from 1268 was falsified, but it was in the end in 2002 convincingly defended. Maybe that doubt stems from the above mentioned debate? D_T_G (P L) 15:40, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]