Talk:Peoples Temple in San Francisco

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Peoples Temple in San Francisco article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives

old merged article talk

Origination[edit]

I created this article to describe the Peoples Temple's move to urban San Francisco, as directed by Jones in 1975 for a variety of reasons and the changes that occurred, the political support and election material (old Political alliances article partially merged), the Temple's activities at the Housing Authority, major San Francisco defections that significantly effected its history, it's National of Islam/ Symbianese Liberation Army issues, the various conspiracy theories it saw there (Blackwell Wright, Dennis Banks/Conn and Stennis), the increasing urban media scrutiny that eventually caused the exodus, what happened to Geary Boulevard facility and members post-exodus, what happened at that facility after Jonestown, etc.

Most of the information is new material from various sources, including Raven, Hall, etc. Some of it was merged from a prior article called Political Alliances of People's Temple (later Political alliances of Peoples Temple) that was started by Wikidemo after a dispute arose regarding material in the Harvey Milk article noting that Milk supported the Temple and opposed the leader of those attempting to extricate relative from Jonestown. Lots of material was lumped into it from other articles, and it was organized by political official. I merged some material from that article into both this article and the Jonestown article, and then redirected it to this article. Because that article is now a redirect, I copied Talk:Political alliances of Peoples Temple to this page and redirected the other page.Mosedschurte (talk) 05:29, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

The article (or section in People's Temple article) could be better sourced. I am not particularly happy with the Reiterman and Jacobs book which seems to be popular writing rather than serious history. And I do not like to see so much reliance on news reports in the days immediately after the events - there are benefits in hindsight. Comments? 16:26, Itsmejudith (talk) 16:27, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reiterman & Jacobs' book is, without a close peer, the most respected book written on the Peoples Temple. Both in terms of comprehensive research and the quality of writing. It is considered the research bible on the topic of the Peoples Temple, though it was written in 1982 before many other documents of the Temple became public.

Tim Reiterman was not only a journalist for the San Francisco Examiner who covered San Francisco in the mid-70s (including Jones and the Temple well before Jonestown) but he also was one of a handful of journalists who were allowed to travel with Congressman Leo Ryan to Jonestown during the tragedy and survived.

Raven took Reiterman & Jacobs took four years to write. They researched hundreds of thousands of documents, interviewed a hundred witnesses and listened to hundreds of hours of audiotape.Mosedschurte (talk) 19:57, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but nothing you say indicates that this is a scholarly history. Rather, it is a journalistic account, by journalists. It may be a good example of this, I don't know. A proper source for an article such as this would be a work by a historian or political scientist. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:28, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Itsmejudith: Cirt put together a pretty good article on Raven (book) that was just started. Take a look at it. The book was actually recognized with the Thomas Thompson PEN Award for nonfiction in 1983. And take a look at the Reception. There really isn't any question that it's the most comprehensive and well respected book on the topic.Mosedschurte (talk) 08:53, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would have to agree with Itsmejudith. Raven is a good book, but it is journalism. Good journalism, but journalism nevertheless. It is not unbiased, so one should be careful not to treat it as the absolute Truth. Re. the article: I think it would be good to be more clear about the fact that we don't know if Tim Stoen is the father of John Victor Stoen. 80.209.1.56 (talk) 10:37, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside from the above discussion, as a personal opinion, it's a pretty remarkable book. I read a lot, and I was sort of blown away by it last year. It's almost written like a reference book, but the material is so interesting, it keeps one pretty riveted. I know that has zero bearing on Wikipedia, but I figured I'd pass along the recommendation.Mosedschurte (talk) 08:56, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is the evidence that good journalism is less accurate than “scholarly history”? It’s almost impossible to find a book that has no point of view; even dictionaries fail that test. So, the very concept of “unbiased” is flawed. Imagine trying to find a book about the Final Solution that is “unbiased.” Nicmart (talk) 03:54, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Peoples Temple related articles[edit]

Over the last few months, I've added a lot of sources and material to several articles that lacked sourcing, stated incorrect facts (and conspiracy theories) and skipped over large sections of the most notable history.

As it stands now, the current articles most heavily related to the Peoples Temple and surrounding events:

Jim Jones - major focus - the personal life of Jim Jones, the Jones family and Jones' leadership of the Peoples Temple. Summary only for other material. This article needs major expansion on Jones' early life and I am going to start working on that.
Peoples Temple- major focus - the creation, organization, operation of the Peoples Temple, as well as life therein. Summary only for other material. This article needs major expansion on 1955-1975, and I am going to start working on that.
Timothy Stoen - major focus - the life of Timothy Stoen, with a description of the key John custody battle & Concerned Relatives. Summary only for other material.
Peoples Temple in San Francisco - major focus - The Temple's move to urban San Francisco, as directed by Jones in 1975 for a variety of reasons and the changes that occurred, the political support and election material (old Political alliances article partially merged), the Temple's activities at the Housing Authority, major San Francisco defections that significantly effected its history, it's National of Islam/ Symbianese Liberation Army issues, the various conspiracy theories it saw there (Blackwell Wright, Dennis Banks/Conn and Stennis), the increasing urban media scrutiny that eventually caused the exodus, what happened to Geary Boulevard facility and members post-exodus, what happened at that facility after Jonestown, etc.
Jonestown - major focus- the creation, activities at and tragedy at Jonestown. Summary only for other material.. Note: I'm considering creating a specific "Tragedy at Jonestown"(see below) article that will go into more detail about that (Nov. 15-18), and then expanding Jonestown to include more of the 1974-October 1978 material, because there is a lot that happened there.

New articles coming:

Either Tragedy at Jonestown or Jonestown before the tragedy (one of these two only) - as discussed above, the "Tragedy at Jonestown" (if that's chosen) would focus on the large number of events that occurred between November 15 and November 18. Lots of events occurred in both Georgetown and Jonestown that are not at all in the article or covered now in only a very summary matter. More importantly, this would allow the expansion of the Jonestown article to include all of the events that occurred there between 1974-Nov. 14 1978 (with the obvious emphasis on Sept. 1977-Nov.1978). Possible Alternative -Jonestown before the tragedy - this would instead focus upon the 1974-Nov. 14 1978 events, and they would be reduced in the Jonestown article to just a summary. The Jonestown article would remain the main article addressing the events of November 15-November 18.
Concerned Relatives (Peoples Temple) - this would focus upon the group of Concerned Relatives (Katsaris, Mills', Stoens, etc.), the many lawsuits brought against the Temple (and the Temple's defense with Garry, Lane, etc.), with additional coverage of individual efforts to oppose the Temple by relatives and former members (Gang of 8, Sandy Rozynko, etc.) before the Concerned Relatives began to come together in Sept. 1977. It would probably also touch upon the odd Joe Mazor incidents.
Michael Prokes - Prokes life, from CBS reporter to Jones right hand man in politics, public relations and administration, relationships (with Jones himself, Carolyn Layton, etc.), eventual bagman for over $7 million in funds to the Soviet embassy on the day of the tragedy and his eventual suicide at a press conference he called in Modesto in 1979 reading a statement siding with Jones and the Temple.Mosedschurte (talk) 13:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NEW ARTICLE[edit]

This is a new article. I have copied the old Talk:Political alliances of Peoples Temple to this page because a sizable portion of that article was merged here. Much of it was also either merged into Jonestown or not merged.

Image copyright problem with Image:Patty Hearst.jpg[edit]

The image Image:Patty Hearst.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:

Image:San Francisco Chronicle logo.png

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --05:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I added non-free use explanations for use in this article in the Image pages.Mosedschurte (talk) 06:07, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Death Tape[edit]

Shouldn't the article mention the death tape? It seems important to me. (Can be found here:

I think so.

Photos[edit]

Why are multiple photos of PT rallies necessary? One from each is sufficient. Nicmart (talk) 03:58, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve deleted the rally photo at the top and replaced it with a photo of the church headquarters, which has a sign stating that Jim Jones was pastor.Nicmart (talk) 04:07, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The posed photo of Mrs. Carter adds nothing. If there is one of her with Jones it would add value. Nicmart (talk) 04:00, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed changes[edit]

I propose that the section referring to Ms. Amos be rewritten so that specific reference to her is deleted since she is not said to have had any distinctly important role in the Temple. She arranged for distribution of leaflets, which is historically trivial. As a consequence, her photo should be deleted. Most Temple members must have done something as important as Amos at one time or another, but their photos are not (and should not) be included. I also think that the photo of Mrs. Carter should be removed since it is merely a posed photo having nothing to do with the PT. If someone yearns to see Mrs. Carter, let that person click the link to her entry page. Nicmart (talk) 04:41, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

She was important in Guyana, as head of the Temple's operations in the capital, but obviously that's not San Francisco and I agree one could remove mention of her without any repercussions. I also agree that the photo of Rosalynn Carter is unnecessary. --Ismail (talk) 02:57, 22 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your info about Ms. Amos. Is she mentioned in the general entry about the Temple? Perhaps she deserves a mention and her photo there. Thanks also for your opinion about the Carter photo.Nicmart (talk) 19:50, 22 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Photo of Geary building after 1906 earthquake[edit]

I fail to see the relevance of this photo. I've posted a photo of the entrance with the Temple's sign. If someone has a photo of the building when it was occupied by the Temple, that would be worth posting, but I think this older photo should be removed. Nicmart (talk) 21:17, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strange phrasing[edit]

It's jarring to read of the "Temple's tragic demise." The demise of members and others at Jonestown was tragic, but one might sensibly believe that the demise of the temple came far too late. Nicmart (talk) 05:01, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]