Talk:Paris metropolitan area/Archives/2013/September

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The article name, content[edit]

I'd like to note a (glaring) detail that has been missing from aire urbaine discussions: few of the French public knows what an aire urbaine is. It is never used for anything outside of studies dealing in (example) Economics and Demographics. The French 'Paris' article has ~two lines~ explaining what the 'aire urbaine' is, and it is used nowhere else in the article as a reference to anything outside its own population. Oh, and French 'aire urbaine de Paris' redirects to a subsection of the 'Agglomération parisienne' article where it is presented as a 'notion', a word whose closest English meaning is 'concept'. The statistical area's disuse outside of specialised spheres is the very reason there is no proper translation for its name yet.

But strangely, according to its purveyors on English Wikipedia, the aire urbaine takes such a "Capital" importance that it trumps France's longstanding and very-often used and referenced administrative boundaries, and that in all subjects down to the very definition of what 'Paris' is. Yet even this article, through its maladroit attempt to 'fit' the aire urbaine into the commonly-referenced (even by the French population) administrative areas that are the base and function of French 'localisation' and politics (see (unanswered) section above), shows that this is not reality.

So when one knowing about the aire urbaine sees it being promoted in a way so different from reality and a vague American-y-metropolis-sounding 'translation' imposed upon it to boot, one has to wonder at the product being sold. 'Metropolitan area' may be both a commonplace reference and a very real (even political) entity in the US, but that far from being the case as far as Paris is concerned. The future may hold a different reality, but we can't very well pretend that the future is here already.

In any case, although the aire ubaine is a very real statistical tool (proper to France), it has no credible translation yet. Many have used the term "Paris metropolitan area" in their Economic/Demographic studies and papers, and others have used the 'U.S.-commmonspeak' version to describe a vague 'Paris and its suburbs' in their (mostly tourism) websites, but their translation is all over the place; most 'translations' to 'Paris metropolitan area' were 'Île-de-France' in their original French form, and 'Région Parisienne' (also a common way of referencing the Île-de-France', btw) comes a close second. In fact, hardly any publications in any language, outside of statistical and economics institutions, refer directly to the aire urbaine at all.

Although the INSEE's translation for aire urbaine is 'urban area' or 'big urban area', yes, I agree that this can be misinterpreted. So, until some referencable French institution comes up with an internationally-accepted (and consistently-used) translation for aire urbaine, I think the best solution we have, especially where referencing is concerned, is to use the native French term.

THEPROMENADER 18:38, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(transcluded from 'Communes in the Paris metropolitan area' template talk page) In conclusion, it would be acceptable to use 'metropolitan area' as one of many possible offhand, in-writ general descriptions of '(something in) the area around Paris' (and this is excusable only for someone ignorant about Paris' function; even then, such an entry should be corrected later by someone more knowledgable), but if the term is used as a 'translation' for an existing and directly-referenced administrative or statistical area (as the 'Paris metropolitan area' template does), forget it. THEPROMENADER 05:42, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This article is going to get smaller.[edit]

I'm going to be moving/deleting an earlier contributor's miguided addition of 'Petite Couronne' and 'Grande couronne' to this article later today - one can't try to 'fit' administrative départements into a little-known conceptual statistical area.

For those obsessed with Paris' suburbs, I still don't understand why this 'Paris aire urbaine' article can't resemble the New York metropolitan area article (and no, since this article directly references the yet un-translated 'aire urbaine', once can't call it that) - if anything, it would help to make the 'aire urbaine' concept known to people. This probably won't happen because of a few who won't settle for anything less than 'Paris' - an attitude akin to someone living in New Jersey wanting to rename the New York metropolitan area article 'New York City'. THEPROMENADER 06:05, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move. Consensus appears to be for an English-language name to be used. While the case has been made that "urban area" is the more direct translation of aire urbaine, it seems demonstrated that "metropolitan area" is the more accurate English term for the subject described. It seems like "metropolitan area" should not be capitalized, but that suggestion hasn't been supported and, for some reason, Metropolitan Area (France) is capitalized. -- tariqabjotu 03:51, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Paris aire urbaine → Paris Metropolitan Area – En.wikipedia uses English names, not foreign names, as per Départements of France which was moved to Departments of France. The correct English translation of aire urbaine is "metropolitan area", as per the discussion that took place at Template_talk:Paris_Metropolitan_Area#Move_request_submitted (see in particular the comments of Seudo, Jayron32, and mine). Der Statistiker (talk) 16:50, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong Oppose . The contributor who made this rather 'pointy' move request is purposefully skewing the debate: it's not a question of 'Language', it's a question of definition and referencability. The aire urbaine is a little-known (to the French or any public) methodology used by the French statistics bureau, and this is why it has no proper translation to date. What this contibutor has done has taken this single-purpose demographics tool and made it seem much more grandiose by giving it a well-known 'translation of choice', and that 'North American commonspeak' translation when used, ~never~ refers to the, although unknown, precise entity that is the Paris aire urbaine. Rather than go into detail again, please read the The article name, content section above. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 17:24, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Linguee is a very useful tool for nailing this point home. From a selection of 100 million human-translated documents: aire urbaine translates overwhelmingly to "urban area" or refers to the Île-de-France. "Paris metropolitan area", "metropolitan area, Paris" and "metropolitan area" turn up references to the Île-de-France (the major translation for "Paris metropolitan area") and a usage as a vague 'city and its suburbs' description; "metropolitan area" alone most often translates to "zone métropolitaine", another imprecise 'big city' or 'city and its suburbs' description; aire urbaine turns up as a 'translation' ~nowhere~ in any of these searches. So, renaming this article "Paris metropolitan area" will not only make it an unreferencable piece of WP:OR, it will make it difficult to describe the very aire urbaine statistical area that this article is supposed to be about. THEPROMENADER 06:55, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
…but I would Support a move to Paris urban area. THEPROMENADER 13:32, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Pardon me, support as proposed, given Metropolitan Area (France). --BDD (talk) 18:32, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Excuses for the rebuttal, but although 'Metropolitan area' "sounds good", did you know that hardly anyone in France knows (no matter what it is translated into) that the aire urbaine exists? And that Wikipedia is probably the only place on the web that translates the academic-study-only 'aire urbaine' INSEE statistical tool into "Paris metropolitan area? Also that the 'Paris metropolitan area's presence on Wikipedia is due to a widespread campaign by a single user? THEPROMENADER 19:56, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If this is a WP:FRINGE topic, perhaps deletion is in order. I still don't see the problem though. We have articles on the metropolitan areas of many cities. Does this or does this not describe the metropolitan area of Paris? If so, why is the proposed named inappropriate? --BDD (talk) 20:28, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is a WP:FRINGE topic for sure: as you care to look at the Paris article talk page, if the same players promoting the "Paris metropolitan area" here had their way, Paris' aire urbaine would simply be called… 'Paris'. Which of course defies all fact and reality. I understand their frustration with France's seemingly backwards ways (in comparison to other 'skyscraper' capitals), but one can't use Wikipedia to make a desired future seem reality. In this regard, the difference between the French and English versions of Paris-based articles is sometimes astounding. In short, on English Wikipedia, a little-known and rarely-used French statistical tool is being blown all out of proportion to make it seem a hundred times more important than it really is, or in other words, abused. I wouldn't go so far as to propose deletion though, it would be fine if things were simply presented as they really are with the importance they really have, like in the French articles. THEPROMENADER 22:16, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Because the aire urbaine area/term does not enjoy the same widespread use as 'metropolitan area' does in other countries, and naming it "Paris metropolitan area" (especially in an article of its own) gives the impression that it does. If you like, have a look at French Wikipedia for the term 'aire urbaine' - the French Paris article has a single-line explanation and (in the demographics section) sparingly uses it as the demographical statistics tool it is, and the (former) 'Aire urbaine de Paris' article redirects to a subsection of the Agglomération parisienne article. THEPROMENADER 20:47, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you should request renaming of Metropolitan Area (France) if that's the case; it's called aire urbaine in the lede and linked to the French Wikipedia article Aire urbaine (France). In fact, the French Aire urbaine is linked to the English Metropolitan area. This may not be a widely used translation, but it appears established and correct. --BDD (talk) 20:54, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for repeating, but that and all other 'metropolitan area' articles concerning France are the creation/transformation of a single editor (look at the history of each, plus the same's contributions), and only Wikipedia says that a "metropolitan area" is an aire urbaine. THEPROMENADER 21:14, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Aire Urbaine is the French metropolitan area, it is the same concept. A big commuter belt area calculated on commute patterns to a defined core. Minato ku (talk) 21:19, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose a literal translation would be Paris urban area, which I wouldn't oppose. --BDD (talk) 21:26, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's actually the translation given on the website of the INSEE (click the 'Francais' link in the top righthand corner to see the French version), the very creators of the aire urbaine concept. Yet discussion with another contributor managed to convince me to oppose my own move proposition to 'Paris urban area' (to the 'Paris metropolitan area' template) - we thought that using 'urban area' would confuse those used to a very different definition of the term (the same could apply to 'metropolitan area'), and thought that using the original French term was the safest and most referencable way to go. THEPROMENADER 21:35, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@ BDD: note that urban area is called "unité urbaine" in the French of France (it's different in the French of Québec). What's called "aire urbaine" in France and "région métropolitaine" in Québec is what's called metropolitan area in English. The use of "aire urbaine" by INSEE (the statistical office of France) is confusing in an international context (the Québécois have much more wisely crafted the term "région métropolitaine" for that), but that's the way it is. Nobody in the English-speaking world is familiar with the term "aire urbaine" however, so this can't possibly be used on en.wikipedia, otherwise we would also start to talk of Gemeinden, województwo, 县, окръг, and only a linguist could understand en.wikipedia. Der Statistiker (talk) 22:28, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"What's called "aire urbaine" in France and "région métropolitaine" in Québec is what's called metropolitan area in English." - that's quite an 'is' affirmation… says who? 'Metropolitan area' is just one of many documented (and disputed) possibilities, and it's not 'English', it's an 'American term'. THEPROMENADER 08:35, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mild support as proposed as per WP:UE, but I would prefer Greater Paris. "Greater" is always a loosely defined word in contexts like this, which is fine, because there's no good term in English to exactly correspond with "aire urbaine", as has been noted above at length. Red Slash 01:47, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I also mild-support any other non-absurd English title. Red Slash 18:18, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:UCN. The article describes a metropolitan area, as is commonly understood in English. --Jayron32 01:49, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question - I see "aire urbain" statistics being discussed in English statistical sources. And the mother article was undiscussed-moved in 2009 from aire urbaine to Metropolitan Area (France). Backwards in French sources La nouvelle scène urbaine: Maghreb, France, USA -2011 Page 13 "Aux U.S.A. le terme qui se rapproche le plus d'« aire urbaine » est metropolitan area" also Cities in Globalization: Practices, Policies and Theories - Peter Taylor, ‎Ben Derudder, ‎Pieter Saey - 2007 Page 189 "For example, the boundary of the RUL (Region Urbaine de Lyon), otherwise known as l'Aire Urbaine de Lyon, has created a 30-mile metropolitan area around Lyons containing all the facilities and infrastructures of a large urban region", Phoenix Cities: The Fall and Rise of Great Industrial Cities Anne Power, ‎Jörg Plöger, ‎Astrid Winkler - 2010 - Page 243 "The municipality (commune) covers an area of 80km and had a population of 180,210 in 1999. The broader Saint-Étienne metropolitan area (aire urbaine) comprises 41 municipalities, with 321,703 inhabitants in 1999." ... on the face of it it seems a natural if appoximate translation. My question: is there any other use of "metropolitan area" in sources related to France which conflict with the aire urbaine formula? In ictu oculi (talk) 06:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Almost all of them. Outside of demographics studies that use the INSEE tool, most all "natural" 'Paris metropolitan area' use refers to the administrative 'Paris Region' (aka the île-de-France). THEPROMENADER 07:03, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As one of the references you provided shows, I guess it wouldn't matter much which English translation we use if the formula was "English translation (aire urbaine)". THEPROMENADER 07:09, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm, seems this is quite a complicated titling issue requiring some familiarity with statistical and administrative usage. I'm wondering if article Metropolitan Area (France) title should be considered with this? In ictu oculi (talk) 07:14, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, that way we can get the entire debate (as it involves all France-related 'metropolitan area' articles and templates) out of the way once and for all. I'm even considering posting the issue to the WP:FRINGE noticeboard where perhaps such a multi-article debate over a much-abused term would be much more appropriate. THEPROMENADER 07:30, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A few comments regarding the last comments: "Greater Paris" is often used in English to refer to the Île-de-France region, so the use of "Greater Paris" for this article would be confusing. As for the Île-de-France region, it is never referred to as the "Paris metropolitan area" in English by official sources. Official sources refer to it in English either as the "Paris Île-de-France Region", or increasingly in recent years as the "Paris Region" only, as you can see on the English website of the economic development agency of the Île-de-France region: [1]. Der Statistiker (talk) 11:29, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But this article is about the aire urbaine statistical area (not the Île-de-France), and again, no matter what language one uses to describe it, this cannot distract from the fact that hardly anyone in France knows what an aire urbaine is. Again, most 'commonspeak' english sources, when they use 'Paris metropolitan area', are referring to the Île-de-France. THEPROMENADER 13:20, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
An 'oversight' in that comment that should be pointed out: of course official sources do not use 'metropolitan area' to describe the Île-de-France (although a majority of other sources that use the term do), but nor do they use it to describe the 'aire urbaine'; they use 'urban area' [2] as a majority of other sources referring to the 'aire urbaine' do. THEPROMENADER 20:07, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment As usual, DerStatistiker has been engaging in heavy canvassing to "win" the argument [3], [4], [5], [6].Jeppiz (talk) 22:48, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Seudo is quite good at seeing reason in this type of affair (he did manage to convince me to change my mind), but Jeppiz, Dr. Blofeld and Gilderien are strangely absent from that list… I wonder why. THEPROMENADER 07:29, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
PS: Sorry if I forgot anyone. THEPROMENADER 07:31, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggestion - If everyone hasn't figured it out by now, my issue isn't about the article name per se, but about how this particular statistics tool has been abused to create a fictive 'reality' on English Wikipedia. That issue is, in effect, probably for the WP:FRINGE board, but by giving the little-known aire urbaine the fame of a widely-known name, we're only feeding that disillusion. For this I suggest we leave the article where it is until this issue is resolved - I'm putting together a page outlining the how and why 'Paris metropolitan area' gets such undue heavy attention in so many English Paris-based articles (basically the work of one contributor), and once the use of the term is corrected everywhere, the aire urbaine can be presented, under any reference-worthy name at all, as the statistical notion it is. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 10:14, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's an interesting thing for the lone and sole person who is advocating for a particular stance would be the one calling everyone else "fringe". --Jayron32 19:18, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • 'Everyone else' has a fringe view? Not at all. 'Inadvertantly promoting a fringe view' ? Perpaps. (but listening to own echo…) THEPROMENADER 19:31, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conclusion - I understand the need to move aire urbaine to an 'English' name, but which name? 'Metropolitan area' is just not suitable. The literal translation for aire urbaine is 'urban area' (and also a translation, along with 'big urban area', provided by the creators of the aire urbaine themselves. Two contributors above (who have well-known POV's concerning this issue) insist that 'Paris metropolitan area' "is" the Paris aire urbaine, but this POV is unshared by (and thumbs its nose at) every web reference in existence, most every academic source and the the INSEE itself. I cannot stress this enough. THEPROMENADER 07:35, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As per the 'strong oppose' comment above, "Urban area" is the overwhelming translation "de préférence" of aire urbaine according to sources, so if a move to an English title is really necessary, a move to "Paris urban area" is the only possible way to go. THEPROMENADER 06:25, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Hardly makes sense to me. In English, when we are talking about the urban area of a metropolis, we use the term "metropolitan area", as it is more specific. Apparently this distinction is not made in French. In English, "urban area" is a broader version of "metropolitan area", and it is natural to use "metropolitan" when talking about Paris. What a nitpicking debate though. The main question is whether a French or English name should be used and the resounding answer is English. Call it "urban" or "metropolitan", while I support the latter, either is better than the current title. 86.30.135.155 (talk) 09:08, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The aire urbaine is a little-known INSEE statistical tool, not a well-known vague description. THEPROMENADER 11:39, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
….and what is it with the 'parachute voters' always plaguing Paris'-suburbs-based articles? THEPROMENADER 05:06, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I just happened to come across this article and was annoyed with the French title not being translated. In terms of direct translation I suppose Paris urban area is the most accurate, and the title should be in English in English wikipedia, which Paris aire urbane is definitely not. So I would support that if the consensus is that "metropolitan" is too different from the original French designation. 86.30.135.155 (talk) 23:39, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note that the definition of INSEE's "aire urbaine" matches with what's called "metropolitan area" in English. What's called "urban area" in English corresponds to what INSEE names "unité urbaine". This has already been explained by some knowledgeable editors who reacted to ThePromenader's desire to move the template "Paris Metropolitan Area" to "Paris Urban Area": here by Seudo and here by Jayron32. Der Statistiker (talk) 23:31, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note that those 'matches' are your own opinion unshared by most every reference referring to the 'aire urbaine', so WP:OR. Note that the INSEE itself defines (its own) 'aire urbaine' as 'urban area' (and the built-up area as a 'urban unit') - there's nothing to even argue about here.
The (cherrypicked) opinions of 'some explainers' (in fact 'one' - from another debate?) cannot trump actual usage and reference - besides, User:Seudo ('the explainer') wanted to keep the French term - and I agreed with him!
But since you 'forced' the issue by this move request and we are now obliged to find an English term, we must use one that complies not with opinions and personal preferences, but with references to fact. Usage of terms differ from country to country, which is why we wanted to keep the French term, but since you've forced the issue, so be it. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 05:53, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Paris_metropolitan_area/Archives/2013/September&oldid=1090574354"