Talk:Old Right (United States)/Archive 1

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Archive 1

keep OLD LEFT out of this article

This fellow Richman is a journalist not a historian. Norman Thomas was the head of the Socialist party and LaFollette was a strong supporter of New Deal. Call them right???? In fact quite a few leftists were isolationists in 1940 (John L Lewis, Charles Beard). Rjensen 03:34, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Sheldon Richman is well qualified to comment. The "Old Right" is not just the right. That's the point. Classical liberals were the Left, but they are considered to be in the Old Right as well. RJII 03:39, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

LaFollette and Thomas were far left socialists. They were NOT classical liberals--no one has ever called them that. Thomas was head of the Socialist party for decades, for example. There were many people on the left who were isolationists--let's not sign them up for the right just yet.Rjensen 03:43, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I know they weren't classical liberals. I was just giving the example that "Old Right" isn't just the right-wing. RJII 03:44, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Again, it doesn't matter whether you or I agree with him. His article is in a peer-reviewed journal. You shouldn't delete it. RJII 04:00, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

First of all mistakes are never acceptable in Wiki, even if they appear in peer reviewed journals. In this case Richman published the essay in the journal while he worked for the journal -- that is not peer review. But the point is that Old Rightism was strongly opposed to socialism and collectivism, as represented by LaFollette and Thomas. Richman does not say they belonged to the Old Right, only that they were fellow isolationists. (He does not spend more than a sentence on the two of them--so this can hardly be called a reliable source about LaFollette or Thomas. There are full books on each, that make the point they were far left. Rjensen 04:43, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll give it to you, since he just says they "felt at home in the Old Right." It's not clear that he's saying they were part of the Old Right. Norman Thomas was in the America First Committee with members of the Old Right --maybe this is what he's talking about. RJII 22:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

paleoconservative

Though paleoconservativism has incorporated much of old-right ideology, they are not exactly the same and represent two different cultural streams. It is best to say that paleocons perceive themselves as best representing the tradition of the old right, rather than to say that they are synonymous. Old Righters are not as focused on "Western Culture" as on America per se. They were less overtly religious in their self-identity (though recognized the debt they owed to their religious heritage) and did not preach about social morality nad personal habits. They were for small government and were unified by a laissez faire economic vision. Paleocons are not necessarily small-gvt people and are not necessarily unfied by an economic vision. Today Old-righters are probably best seen as some Libertarian-leaning conservatives or conservative leaning libertarians. 71.249.39.31 (talk) 04:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)Shigaon

Restricting Immigration was also not a part of Old Right philosophy. But the JBS decided to change this. The Old Right doesn't exist anymore, and thus I agree with the premise of this article.

"If Goldwater were on the floor of the U.S. Senate today, he'd feel right at home with the immigration debate - but conservatives would brand him a "traitor" for supporting a guest worker program." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.249.39.31 (talk) 04:12, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Origin of term

In Rothbard's article, he implies that he coined the term "Old Right"? Does anyone know who first used the term and when? It is important because it would avoid arguments as to who was in the "Old Right". (We just note who the users of the term included.) Obviously no one called themselves "Old Right", at least not before the "New Right" existed. The Four Deuces (talk) 07:23, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

John T. Flynn

John T. Flynn's status as an Old Rightist has been disputed. Rjensen removed him with the remark that "Flynn was a liberal -- one that hated FDR". It is true enough that Flynn's politics were, at one time, liberal in content, and that he always considered himself a liberal; but nevertheless he meets the main criteria of an Old Rightist: opposition to American entry into World War II (he was a member of the America First Committee) and opposition to the New Deal from some sort of classical liberal, individualist, conservative, free-market, or libertarian standpoint.

I do not think the first criterion is in dispute. The second criterion is backed up by his major work on the New Deal, The Roosevelt Myth (which, though primarily anti-Roosevelt, is certainly anti–New Deal and not from a leftist perspective). That his politics were no longer left-wing liberal is obvious by a cursory reading of The Decline of the American Republic or The Road Ahead; both oppose socialism and modern liberalism, and the first defends constitutionalism and states' rights. (All three books mentioned are available online, linked from Flynn's article). John E. Moser (who wrote a biography of Flynn, entitled Right Turn), documents this "Ideological Odyssey of John T. Flynn". By the late 1940s, Flynn was praising capitalism, linked the New Deal to communism, and attacking the planned economy. Thus Flynn's views were no longer liberal; at least not in the New Deal sense of the word.

Now, in an earlier edit removing Flynn, Rjensen had the following summary: "drop[ping] later group that does not belong here". Perhaps this was a reference to how Flynn's domestic views did not align with the Old Right until after the war; but it must be remembered the Old Right lived well into the 1950s (with politicians like Robert Taft and Howard Buffett) and it is reasonable to include Flynn in this group.

Further—and this is the important part for Wikipedia—the sources that consider Flynn as Old Right are legion. Some examples:

David T. Beito, "Happy Birthday, John T. Flynn". "John T. Flynn was probably the most important single activist and publicist of the 'Old Right' from the 1930s to the 1950s."
Adam Young, "A Tribute to John T. Flynn". "As Ralph Raico described Flynn in his introduction to the 50th anniversary edition of The Roosevelt Myth, 'There is little doubt that the best informed and most tenacious of the Old Right foes of Franklin Roosevelt was John T. Flynn.'"
Justin Raimondo, "Who is John T. Flynn?" "John T. Flynn—journalist, author, and master polemicist of the Old Right—is highly unusual. He started out as a liberal columnist for that flagship of American liberalism, the New Republic, and wound up on the Right, denouncing 'creeping socialism.'"
Justin Raimondo, "John T. Flynn: Exemplar of the Old Right".
Murray Rothbard, The Betrayal of the American Right. Flynn is referenced numerous times throughout the book, e.g.: "None of the Old Right saw this vision of the coming America more perceptively than John T. Flynn..." (p. 47.)
Anthony Gregory, "What's Left of the Old Right"
Joseph R. Stromberg, "Mere 'Isolationism': The Foreign Policy of the Old Right". "Veteran anti-New Deal writer John T. Flynn, a central Old Right figure..."
John E. Moser, Right Turn: John T. Flynn and the Transformation of American Liberalism. "Flynn, writes author John F. McManus, was one of the few to fight 'for limited government and noninterventionism against the rising tides of socialism and militarism' and therefore was 'the ultimate "Old Right" conservative.'" (p. 1.)
Ronald Radosh, Prophets on the Right. To quote Moser, "Then-radical Ronald Radosh was perhaps the first to characterize him [Flynn] as a member of the so-called Old Right..." (p. 3.)
Ralph Raico, "John T. Flynn and the Myth of FDR". "There is little doubt that the best informed and most tenacious of the Old Right foes of Franklin Roosevelt was John T. Flynn."
Richard Spencer, "The Old Right and the Antichrist" "Moreover, the Old Right was composed of many former liberals and progressives: including ... John T. Flynn..."
Lawrence M. Vance, "Forward". "Although he never formally joined the Republican Party, twenty years later he [Flynn] was an Old Right supporter of Robert Taft and a defender of Joe McCarthy..."
Stephen Cox, "William F. Buckley, R.I.P.". "The libertarian economist Murray Rothbard and his followers castigated Buckley's movement for abandoning the principles of what Rothbard called the Old Right, the isolationist and (sometimes) small-government people of the preceding generation—people such as Robert Taft and John T. Flynn."
Sheldon Richman, "New Deal Nemesis: The 'Old Right' Jeffersonians". "The Old Right includes several identifiable strands: 'progressive' isolationists (such as ... John T. Flynn)..."
Karen De Coster. "The great figures of the 'Old Right', including H.L. Mencken, Garet Garrett, Frank Chodorov, John T. Flynn, and Robert A. Taft."[1]
Enrico Peppe, "IC's Top 25 Philosophical and Ideological Conservative Books: No. 20 - Gregory L. Schneider: Conservatism in America since 1930: A Reader". "Near-forgotten Old Rightists like John T. Flynn..."
John F. McManus, "Conservatism, Buckley Style". "Old Right conservatives strongly believed in a non-interventionist foreign policy, constitutional principles, and limited government. They included author John T. Flynn..."
Joseph Scotchie, The Paleoconservatives: New Voices of the Old Right. "I ... was introduced to wonderful Old Right literature I had never heard of—libertarians Albert Jay Nock and H.L. Mencken, Frank Chodorov, John T. Flynn, and Garet Garrett..." (p. 26.)
International Encyclopedia of Economic Sociology, "Libertarianism". "Old Right opponents of Franklin D. Roosevelt’s New Deal (e.g. Albert Jay Nock, John T. Flynn, Isabel Paterson and H. L. Mencken)..."

Wikipedia policy is that: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true." A substantial number of sources—at least some of them certainly reliable—consider John T. Flynn to be a part of the Old Right. The link should be retained. --darolew (talk) 00:20, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Southern Agrarians

I removed the following from the Southern Agrarians section, and bring it here for discussion:

However, the Southern Agrarians were very much a different breed as opposed to the list of what is now thought as "Old Right", such as the list of individuals above. In contrast to many of the Southern Agrarians, many on the Old Right, such as Hamilton Fish and Rose Wilder Lane, embraced free markets, industrial development, and civil rights. Also, the Southern Agrarians were not homogeneous, as Ransom's later work reflects some acceptance of modernity.

This is simply an opinion, which offers a comparison and contrast with no evidence or source. As such, it cannot remain in the article. If this is the opinion of a notable scholar, it should be cited. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 03:01, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Hoover

Hoover was a conservative, not a liberal. RJII 07:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Hoover called himself a [classical] liberal. He and Robert A. Taft were not finally reconciled to the conservative label

until 1948. Green, Shaping Political Consciousness, 113, 224. Rjensen 07:47, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

He might have called himself a liberal, but he wasn't one. Hoover was very much an interventionist. The Republican Party were the interventionists/conservatives. The Democratic Party were the liberals --until Roosevelt changed that. RJII 07:51, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Regardless, do you even have a source that he was one of the "Old Right"? RJII 07:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

HH in 1920: "If the Republican party . . . adopts a forward-looking, liberal, constructive platform on the treaty and on our economic issues and if the party proposes measures for sound business administration of the country; and is neither reactionary or radical in its approach to our great domestic questions . . . I will give it my entire support. " in The Politics of American Individualism: Herbert Hoover in Transition, 1918-1921 by Gary Dean Best 1975. Page 78. Rjensen 07:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

HH was probably the most articulate opponent of the New Deal 1933 onward. Isn't that Old Right enough? Rjensen 07:59, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Sure, he was an opponent of the new deal, but he certainly wasn't an opponent of economic interventionism and protectioniosm. He definitely wasn't a classical liberal. RJII 08:01, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Rothbard counts Hoover as Old Right. [Rothbard counts him see

[2]] --note that Robert Taft was a disciple of Hoover....how can you split them? Rjensen 08:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Rothbard says that Hoover is included in the "former statists and progressives." RJII 08:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind that people changed positions. I'm sure you'd have supported Hoover 98% in 1933-40. :) Is your list comprised of people who never in their lifetimes changed? it would be very short indeed. Rjensen 08:10, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Sure he changed, but he didn't change into a classical liberal. RJII 08:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Note that Roosevelt also portrayed himself as a liberal in his campaign, but it turned out he was a big government conservative. No one today considers him a classical liberal. Maybe you can find someone calling Hoover a classical liberal, but if so, they're very misguided. RJII 08:16, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

were there ANY politicians you consider members of the Old Right? Rjensen 08:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Hoover was not Old Right by any stretch of the imagination. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] Josh 02:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Hoover was in the Progressive Party and started the New Deal. That is hardly "Old Right." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.87.196.124 (talk) 05:21, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Anyone who reads Hoover's book Freedom Betrayed will be convinced he was part of the Old Right. Yes, he changed from his earlier years as a progressive. From the depression to the end of his life he was part of the Old Right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.114.177 (talk) 18:09, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Canada

Am I correct that the term "Old Right" is associated more with the United States, because it was more widely used, and more people self-identified with it? I believe there is evidence of a similar movement in Canada. I don't believe this article need be United States-centric, if documentation exists of similar movements here up north. I am canadian, and I sympathise with the "Old Right". Black Lab (talk) 10:04, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

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Walter Lippmann

I am unable to find any concrete evidence that Lippmann ever crossed over to "the right" from his college days as a socialist. He may have become a progressive at some point, but that seems to be about as far as he went. Progressingamerica (talk) 22:31, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

'Old Right' is clearly a retrospective descriptor

"They were called the "Old Right" to distinguish them from their New Right successors who came to prominence in the 1950s and 1960s." Hence, they were not known by that title at the time of their prominence. Harfarhs (talk) 10:59, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Anti-Zionism

This wasn't about opposition to a state of Israel, but about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, no? I suggest changing this to antisemitism. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 14:25, 15 March 2022 (UTC)