Talk:O moj Shqypni

A fact from O moj Shqypni appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 4 July 2011 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that O moj Shqypni has been described as one of the most influential and most important poems written in Albanian?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2011/July.

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Wikisource[edit]

I don't know the rules about this, but maybe the text of the poem should be moved to wikisource?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:52, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of the referenced text[edit]

Here is the version of this article which contain the following sentence:

A sentence from this poem, "Feja e shqyptarit asht shqyptaria!" (English: The religion of the Albanian is Albanianism), became a label of the core myth of Albanian nationalism and template for other myths and narratives of Albanian nationalists.

Source: Schmitt, Oliver Jens (2010), Religion und Kultur im albanischsprachigen Südosteuropa, vol. 4, Frankfurt am Main, Berlin, Bern, Bruxelles, New York, Oxford, Wien, p. 242, ISBN 978-3-631-60295-9, A core myth, a basic narrative ... can be labeled as "The religion of the Albanian is Albanianism". This serves as template for their other myths and narratives... {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=, |editorn-last=, |coauthors=, |doi-inactive-date=, |editorn-link=, |nopp=, |separator=, |laysummary=, |editorn=, |editorn-first=, |month=, |chapterurl=, |author-separator=, and |lastauthoramp= (help); More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help); Unknown parameter |firstn= ignored (help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

Kushtrim123 removed that text without reaching consensus about it or any explanation on the talk page or edit summary. Taking in consideration that within last 24 hours Kushtrim123 removed another referenced text I am afraid that it can be seen as a pattern of disruptive editing.

Based on the above mentioned explanation, I propose to return above mentioned sentence to the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:12, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The phrase one of the most influential and important works of the Albanian National Awakening sums it up much better and Kushtrim123 added more details without plagiarizing word by word an essay with too many unscholarly overtones, but by using as sources scholars, who have some authority on Albanian literature issues. Btw Schmitt is not the writer of the book, but the editor of various essays and the one you're quoting is an essay about post-Communist religious figures in Albania by Cecilia Endresen. Please don't make this talkpage another ad infinitum discussion. AFAIC the article is very neutral(use by nationalist organizations mentioned etc.) so leave it at that.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 18:35, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Author of the referenced work is Cecilie Endresen, researcher of the Department of Literature, Area Studies and European Languages on the University of Oslo, expert in Albania and Albanian nationalism who wrote more than 40 works about it.

After Kushtrim123 removed above mentioned text from the article, he did not replace it with "more details" "summing up much better" the information from the deleted sentence. Now, there is no mention of The religion of the Albanian is Albanianism being a label of the core myth of Albanian nationalism and template for other myths and narratives of Albanian nationalists. A motto is not a myth.

I am afraid that the removal of the referenced text by Kusthtrim123 could be qualified by someone as tendentious editing as well as disputing the reliability of apparently good sources by ZjarriRrethues. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:43, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Its use by nationalist organizations is mentioned i.e you don't have to plagiarize an essay in order to mention something.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 13:01, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your reply could be qualified by someone as tendentious editing because you repeated the same argument, again disputed the reliability of apparently good source and accusing me for malice (plagiarism? "in order to mention something") although I explained that source I used is work of contemporary scholar authoritative in this field. I also explained that there is no mention of the sentence from this poem being a label of the core myth of Albanian nationalism and template for other myths and narratives of Albanian nationalists.

Here is another source which treat the sentence from this poem as "one of the three main constitutive myths" of Albanian nationalism. (King, Russell (2008), Out of Albania: From Crisis Migration to Social Inclusion in Italy, Berghahn Books, p. 212, ISBN 978-1-84545-544-6 {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=, |editorn-last=, |doi-inactive-date=, |editorn-link=, |nopp=, |separator=, |laysummary=, |editorn=, |editorn-first=, |month=, |chapterurl=, |author-separator=, and |lastauthoramp= (help); More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |firstn= ignored (help)
Here is another source which treat sentence from this poem as myth of Albanian nationalism. (Schwandner-Sievers, Stephanie (2002), Albanian identities: myth and history, USA: Indiana University Press, p. 22, ISBN 0-253-34189-2, Myth coined by Pashko Vasa in the late nineteenth century, according to which "the religion of Albanians is Albanianism" {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=, |editorn-last=, |doi-inactive-date=, |editorn-link=, |nopp=, |separator=, |laysummary=, |editorn=, |editorn-first=, |month=, |chapterurl=, |author-separator=, and |lastauthoramp= (help); More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |firstn= ignored (help))

There are plenty of sources for the statement which was deleted by disruption of Kushtrim123. Taking in consideration above mentioned arguments and additional sources provided, I propose to return deleted sentence in the text of the article because it contains important information about a sentence from this poem being one of the myths of Albanian nationalism. Does anyone objects?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:38, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since nobody presented valid arguments and nobody objected my question above, I reinserted the above sentence, but not to the lede of the article. I inserted it to the bottom of the article, in the section "Importance and legacy" (diffs). Ktrimi991 deleted the above sentence (diff) with explanation "This sentence was deleted years ago and nobody agreed with you to add it again. See talk." I think that nobody presented a valid argument against this sentence which should be restored. It is cited with exceptional sources authored by Oliver Jens Schmitt, a professor of South-East European history at Vienna University since 2005 and member of the Austrian Academy of Sciences whose field of expertise is Albania, and confirmed by works authored by Russel King and Nicola Mai, Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Bernd Jürgen Fischer, Roderick Bailey, Isa Blumi, Nathalie Clayer, Ger Dujizings, Denisa Costovicova, Annie Lafontaine, Fatos Lubonja, Nicola Mai, Piro Misha, Mariella Pandolfi, Gilles de Rapper, Fabian Schmidt, George Shopflin, Elias G. Skoulidas, Alex Standish and Galia Vatchinova.

According to wikipedia rules, consensus is based on arguments grounded in wikipedia policies. It is not enough to say "I am against.....". Without valid arguments, grounded in wikipedia policies, simple votes mean nothing. If nobody presents valid arguments within reasonable period of time I will restore deleted sentence.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:22, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The valid arguments were presented six years ago. Your refusal to catch the point does not let you see them. Cheers. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:46, 29 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What does the title mean?[edit]

It would seem fairly normal to give an English translation for the title of the poem. I presume "O moj Shqypni" means "O my Albania", but that's just a guess. Can someone who knows, put it in? TheGrappler (talk) 16:39, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, it doesn't, though "moj" certainly does look like it ought to mean "my". Actually, it is a sort of endearing vocative address to women or feminine nouns. It conveys intimacy, so perhaps the best translation would be: "O my dear Albania". "my Albania" would be "Shqypni ime". Bill (talk) 00:40, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]