Talk:Northern Virginia trolleys

Title of entry

If we're going to call the DC page "Washington Streetcars" then we should call this one "Northern Virginia Streetcars."

I wondered about that. Here's my logic:

The trolleys ran on a private right-of-way. There was no street under them, so they weren't streetcars, I suppose. Also, my references usually refered to them as trolleys. So what do you think?

• Wikipedia uses the two terms interchangeably, and in fact defines a trolley as a streetcar. In addition, other cities like Boston, Portland and Seattle have Streetcar entries, but fewer have entries for trolleys. While the Viriginia lines didn't start out on streets, they later found themselves on streets so I think the term is still appropriate.

Shockey station

hi, sdc. Great job! I'm 80% sure that Shockey was at the crossing of Hidden Road, which was a thru street between Courthouse and Chain Bridge Rds. when I was growing up on Hidden in the 1970's. I didn't make this minor addition, as I'm not sure that my lack of paper documentation for it meets your criteria for evidence. (Although Hidden is the most logical spot for Shockey, given the configuration of neighboring stations and street crossings.) Also, I distinctly remember two sets of (cracked and overgrown) concrete sidewalk-steps, which appeared to date from c.1925, descending from higher sidewalk-grades on opposite sides of Hidden Rd. and down onto the railway grade at the probable Shockey station site. I mention those only because they may, or may not, qualify as "remnants" or ancillary features, although perhaps not constructed by the trolley company. I wonder if one or both survived the dead-ending of Hidden.

Hi Bolar. Welcome aboard. Thanks for your kind comments. I don't own this article--you don't need my permission, but it's good to discuss things with others. Are you the one who has been making anonymous edits? If so, good work to you. If not, I would encourage that person to start an account so that we can communicate more easily with him/her. I've also looked at the evidence, and Hidden Road is almost certainly the location of the Shockey station. I put the 1915 Map in the article so that other people can help me figure out where things were. All existing building structures are marked on that map. Documentation for this subject is scarce, so I've begun digging into county archives and the like. Over the last six months I've stockpiled copies of documents on my desk. Since documentation is so scarce, personal experience is invaluable. If you remember this, then I say put it in. It fits with the facts. I'm interested in any reminder that these lines existed, and especially in NoVa, most traces of them have been obliterated. Any bit of evidence helps us document their route. I looked at aerial photos of the area. Looks like the new roads obliterated evidence of the former Hidden Road, but there is a white house in that neighborhood which seems to predate the modern suburban development. Do you know anything about it? [1] Also, you can sign your comments by using four tildes (~~~~).

Most people in the Washington area have no idea that these lines even existed or at least that they were as extensive as they were. I find it interesting that there's talk of extending Metro to Dulles, Fort Meade, and Fort Belvoir, when there used to be rail lines to these places.

To everyone who has taken an interest in these pages:

I'm thinking of completely reorganizing these articles. Wikipedia is giving warnings that the articles have become too long, and I find them unwieldy myself. I'd like to break them down into manageable sizes. For Virginia, I thought about breaking it into two articles: The Washington-Virginia lines and the Old Dominion lines. Currently, the Old Dominion info is duplicated in the Old Dominion article and the NoVa trolley article.

For DC/Maryland, I'd like to break it into the downtown lines and the suburban lines. I've more data on all these things to add, so it seems an inevitability. I thought then there could be one summary article for the whole DC area which links to all the subarticles. I'm also concerned about the naming of them. With the advent of new streetcars in DC, how do I distinguish the older ones? "Metropolitan Washington's former streetcar/trolley system" seems inelegant. We could just refer to them by their company names, but these were never constant.

Any objections to these changes?

I'd also like to modify the list of stations with their addresses to a table. I think it will be a little more readable that way. SDC 19:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, SDC. I was just deferring to you here in recognition of your initiating all this and doing the vast bulk of the work. At least that's what I gather from looking at the "history" logs. Your enthusiasm is certainly infectious; I haven't been this fired up on the WA&FC since the mid-80's, when I published the article in NVa Heritage. (Alas, my time and energies these days are largely consumed by the writing of a dissertation on another historical subject.) I'll make the minor addition re: the location of Shockey. And I'm indeed the source of the earlier additions re: more precise dates for the extensions of the WA&FC. When I lived on Hidden Rd., at least five of the seven houses fronting on it existed prior to the railway's abandonment. I wouldn't be surprised if all seven were of that vintage. A second look at a google satellite image suggests that the southernmost quarter of the right-of-way for the same street as it appears on your 1915 map is still used as a right-of-way under present-day Hidden, that the sidewalk-stairs I mentioned are now gone, and that four of the seven houses still survive--at least two of them being those that date to the period of the railway's existence. I second your motion, by the way, to split the trolleys into the OD and W-Va lines, if the Wiki folks indeed mandate such a move. At some point, maybe after you make that organizational change and thus create more space, I might add a couple sentences on the WA&FC's hosting of some colorful events and developments, including an impromptu ambulance car and the involvement of the railway in a mass-AWOL attempt, during the 3-month lifespan of a huge Spanish-American War training facility, Camp Russell A. Alger, around Merrifield and Dunn Loring. So I sign off with four tildes, eh? I'm still new to all this Wiki stuff. Bolar 08:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Camp Humphreys

One last, quick thought for this morning. Shouldn't we list the first station on the Mount Vernon line as Ft. Humphreys and shouldn't the system map likewise show FH, to match its mention in the article text? I realize, of course, that the Mount Vernon station-FH station segment was operational for only a very short period. But the government-mandated FH extension was quite significant in the line's history, if I recall correctly, for the financial burden of the new track and cars.Bolar 10:15, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure thing. But I can't get any real information on that extension--just a couple of mentions that it existed. That map isn't really done, but I have already added the extention on my copy, but it's just a guess as to the actual route. Any idea where on the base the terminal was? As I said, I can't get any data there. And that map needs further tweaking, I'm trying to make it as geographically accurate as possible, while maintaining a "Metro look" about it. And I've got parts of the downtown map done showing which streets specifically it ran on. But that's taking time. And I'm not sure how to represent a system that was continually changing. Any suggestions? SDC 10:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Just seeing Fort Humphreys now at the head of your stations list works for me. I never located any maps of the precise locations of r.o.w. through and station on base, but I never really looked that hard. But maybe just a short, generic, leftward jog in, and a "Fort Humphreys" notation on, your system map would work for the time being. I wish I was tech-savvy enough to suggest something useful for mapping railways in continual change. My thinking isn't nearly as creative; I just assumed your map was intended to show the network at its fullest extent(s).Bolar 12:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Fairfax terminal

Do you know where the line terminated in Fairfax City? Did it change over time? I can't get definite answers to that question. SDC 10:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, SDC. The Fairfax terminus upon the WAFC's opening in 1904 was on Little River Turnpike at the bottom of the long hill (or series of terraces) sloping westward and downward along LRT from the courthouse building. That first station is of course long gone (a postcard-view of it appears in an old--but unfortunately not old enough to be public domain yet--and obscure picture book, whose title escapes me at the moment, on Fairfax County history by Jean Geddes), but a small, non-railway-related building--formerly worker's housing for some small factory, I understand--that is contemporaneous with the station still stands, fronting on Little River Turnpike, and marking the general station-area. I'll guess that the distance from station to courthouse was about 3/4s of a mile. In or around 1907, the track was extended up the hill and along Little River Pike to a new terminus just shy of the Chain Bridge Road intersection and beside the courthouse, or, more precisely, on LRT between the Marr Monument and a large, Civil War-era hotel that formerly stood on the opposite side of LRT from the monument. For much of the post-1907 operation, I gather, the hotel building then housed the station. Sometime this winter, I can dig out my notes on this and send you a precise date, but I think we're reasonably safe with 1907 for now.Bolar 12:23, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I don't know which of the two prongs shown on the 1915 map had hosted the original station at Fairfax. But the extension up the hill to the courthouse and the new station in the hotel was definitely complete and operational by 1915. The map appears to denote at least part of the extension with dots that are faintly visible running up the middle of LRT, although the dots should run all the way to its intersection with Chain Bridge Road.Bolar 14:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

A few points of possible interest: The hotel at the NW corner of 123 and Main Street (referenced immediately above), I understand, was disassembled and re-assembled at the location roughly where the Bob Evans now stands on 123, about 1/4 mile north of I-66. The building became the head administrative building for Flint Hill Prep School from the 1950s to the 1980s. In the 1980s, that same building was moved again about 1/4 mile north to its present location on the new Flint Hill Prep School campus on Jermantown Road -- it's the old yellow-painted brick building. Also, until roughly 1970, there was a railroad trussel bridge over one fork of the Accotink Creek -- this would be in the area between present-day Center Street, Railroad Avenue, and Springmann Drive in Fairfax City. It's my understanding that the trussel bridge was torn down about 1970 -- I'm guessing that's because it was seen as a hazard to children playing on it. I remember in my childhood in the 1970s playing in the area where Rust Field development now is and we would occasionally find rusted railroad ties there -- this would be in Rust Field near Springmann Drive. The trolley line went right between the two sections of Center Street -- it's still visibly raised up between the two sections of Center Street. I'm guessing the trolley line must have gone right down present day Farr Avenue, and on between the two parts of Orchard Street in Fairfax City. Tony Coughlan, January 15, 2011. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.215.233 (talk) 03:44, 16 January 2011 (UTC)