Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity/Archive 9

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Tesla's father Serbian-Orthodox priest

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla#Tesla's father Serbian-Orthodox priest per 16 June 2015 RfC consensus

I opened the discussion here because it is'nt related to Nikola's nationality or ethnicity. I noticed that the POV pusher Asdisis opened a RfC to remove that Nikola's father was Serbian-Orthodox priest and he managed to win in that POV pushing. I think that should be reverted per sources that other editors posted in that RfC, and that that consensus should be looked upon again, by dismissing the comments of the POV pusher. 109.172.46.216 (talk) 13:23, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

First, can I ask, are you a user who has been indefinitely blocked from editing English language Wikipedia and are you editing from an open proxy?- MrX 13:37, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
Probably yes. He is using several IP's on other articles, writing nationalist and offensive comments [1], threatening others [2] and disruptively editing [3] [4]. One was already banned [5]. Tzowu (talk) 13:54, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
Stop accusing me that I'm a sock. You are going from article to article and you are making those accusations everywhere. You are becoming more and more like other Croatian nationalists POV pushers that got banned. Please make a report if you feel so, but I will provide a boomerang to your nationalistic POV. Of course you do not want to make a report but you feel that following me from article to article and writing those kind of accusations is far better for you. You didn't even said whose sock am I, so it is obvious that you are just trying to discredit me. I'm making a reasonable suggestion here, and you are trying to discredit me without any cause. The Nikola's father is Serbian-Orthodox priest and a POV pusher managed to win 1 of numerous RfC's and he should not be allowed to do that. Then he can create another account and again win one of numerous RfC's and one by one he will push his POV everywhere if we only block him and do not revert his edits. 109.172.46.216 (talk) 14:05, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
Actually, you are the one "following" as you edited and commented on articles that I edited in the last few days. The only reason why I haven't reported you is simply because I never did that and I don't want to bother with it, but if you continue to do this I'll probably have to do it, if you don't get banned like the other one in the meantime. Tzowu (talk) 14:09, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Please, let's not go to this again. Comment on the content and not the users. The IP, whoever he might be has a valid point. The RfC to remove a long standing content from the article was started by Asdisis who later got banned for POV pushing. Here is the RfC RfC:_Is_Tesla.27s_father_a_Serbian_Orthodox_priest where he managed to remove long standing content although the majority of editors were against that, most notable: MrX, User:Keithbob, Fountains of Bryn_Mawr, FkpCascais. The users who supported as I can see were Tzowu and Asdisis. 178.151.5.147 (talk) 14:42, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Again you bring up the boomerang. Please understand that while previous reports at ANI did boomerang it was because the users were identity changing users who refused to let something drop. If a report is made against you I am afraid it is you who will look like an identity changing user who will not let things drop. Don't expect that stick to turn around, it will go straight at you.
If you insist on appearing and presenting ideas with no indication that you are the same person as before then you are giving the appearance of being more people than you are and are engaging in sock puppetry. I suggest you create an account if you wish to continue. Chillum 14:48, 25 July 2015 (UTC)


  • Both the Tesla and Trbojevich families were of clerical backgrounds, priests in the Serbian Orthodox Church. Tesla and Mr. Trbojevich were the only members of the extended family to pursue technological careers and the only ones to come to America. - statement coming from William H. Terbo, a grand nephew of Nikola Tesla!, see here
  • Djouka, the mother of Nikola Tesla (her given name in English translation would be Georgina) was the eldest daughter in a family of seven children. Her father, like her husband ( = Milutin Tesla), was a minister of the Serbian Orthodox Church.
from John J. O'Neill: Prodigal Genius: The Life of Nikola Tesla, Cosimo, Inc., 2006 page 10
  • Milutin, Nikola's father, was a well-educated priest of the Serbian Orthodox Church.
from:Nikola Tesla: A Spark of Genius by Carol Dommermuth-Costa, Twenty-First Century Books, 1994 page 12
  • The tiny house in which he was born stood next to the Serbian Orthodox Church presided over by his father, the Reverend Milutin Tesla, who sometimes wrote articles under the nom-de-plume "Man of Justice".
from: Tesla: Man Out of Time by Margaret Cheney, Simon and Schuster, Nov 8, 2011 page 25
  • Following a reprimand at school for not keeping his brass buttons polished, he quit and instead chose to become a priest in the Serbian Orthodox Church.
from: Tesla: Inventor of the Electrical Age by W. Bernard Carlson Princeton University Press, May 7, 2013 page 14
  • Nikola's father, Milutin was a Serbian Orthodox priest and had been sent to Smiljan by his church.
from: Nikola Tesla: Physicist, Inventor, Electrical Engineer by Michael Burgan, Capstone, Jan 1, 2009 page 17

176.12.96.110 (talk) 16:28, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, the majority of the sources does say Serbian Orthodox Church, and if I remember correctly, we removed "Serbian" from that part of the text as some sort of compromise with pro-Croatian editors. It was something like "OK, we drop the word Serbian from SOC and you guys stop your crusade to include Croatia in the lede... so we dropped Serbian but they continued the crusade. FkpCascais (talk) 21:44, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Since I sensed a "ping" I will interject here. There were several reasons for the wording given by the RfC closing editor. It does not matter how many references state that there was some form of "Serbian Orthodox Church", the claim can not be pushed back farther than John Joseph O'Neill's 1944 Prodigal Genius: The Life of Nikola Tesla (page 11), i.e. this seems to be the only source for the claim and O'Neill is a poor source. Since we have constantly changing IPs here supporting each other I agree with Tzowu, new IPs, same old SOCKs.Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 22:23, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
It absolutely does matter what the majority of sources say. In fact, there isn't any source that says otherwise. Asidis had pushed his POV using SYNTHESIS. 46.63.194.208 (talk) 17:46, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Amazing how many of these IPs know who Asidis is. Chillum 00:19, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

This RfC can be closed. No one had posted in a long time, and no one objects the presented sources. The request should be accepted. 89.164.185.106 (talk) 16:57, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

  • Note: Fountains of Bryn Mawr stop claiming nonsense. If you think that someone is a sock, report it, provide the facts. Personal attacks are strictly forbidden by Wikipedia policy. As to the John Joseph O'Neill's 1944 Prodigal Genius: The Life of Nikola Tesla not a single scholar ever challenged this author about anything. Moreover, before entering into discussion, educate yourself about history of the Serbian Orthodox Church!--65.220.39.98 (talk) 17:39, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
Per socks, the "pro-XXXX contributors" on these subjects do not have a good track record[6]. O'Neill's track record has garnered comments such as "In fact -- after inaccurately describing Tesla's work as "radio" and overstating its applicability to modern communications systems -- he even laments that "The system invented and discovered by Tesla is the one in use today; but who ever heard anyone giving Tesla the slightest credit?" . Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 19:52, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
  • And so what? Who and where challenged the O'Neill's claim that Tesla's father was not a Serbian Orthodox Church priest? Do you understand what are you reading and what are you claiming about Tesla? Stop slandering other users, dignify yourself first in order to be taken seriously!--65.220.39.98 (talk) 20:30, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Personal attacks removed Please, do not put them back!--65.220.39.98 (talk) 11:13, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
  • This IP is Asdisis/Detoner/Michael Cambridge/50 other IPs. They are removing our comments because we have been reverting their posts. The key different is the sock is banned and we are not. If it keeps up we will have to semi-protect this page like others this person harassed. They have plenty of IPs and are evading a block so you can just revert and seek an uninvolved admin for a block or semi-protection if it continues. Chillum 15:10, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
      • Personal attacks are strictly forbidden by Wikipedia. The talk page is about article only. Comment on comment only. Do not bring back offensive remarks again.--65.220.39.98 (talk) 11:27, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
        • Last edit reverted per WP:AVOIDABUSE. Stop modifying other people's content on a talk page. Asking someone if they have a related account or noting suspicions are not "Personal attacks" especially when there is WP:IDENTICAL going on. If you think there is a violation of WP:CIVIL start an ANI on the matter. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 13:47, 27 August 2015 (UTC)


Tesla was a croat from Croatian village called Smiljan. Serbs destroyed his monument when they bombarded city of Gospić.

Learn some history. Wikipedia is pathetic and full of lies.

His father was a croatian orthodox priest not serbian. His ancestor are from Lika. This is fucking pathetic!

Nikola Tesla attended high school in Karlovac, Croatia

These are the sources that prove that Karlovac was in Croatia-

My Inventions, The Autobiography of Nikola Tesla. Chapter 3 'My Later Endeavors'. "My studies were continued at the higher Real Gymnasium in Carlstadt, Croatia..." (Carlstadt=Karlovac) http://www.teslasautobiography.com/my_later_endeavors.html

Tesla: Man Out of Time. Author-Margaret Cheney. Page 53. "The boy continued his studies at a higher school in Karlstadt (Karlovac), Croatia..." https://www.scribd.com/read/224312911/Tesla-Man-Out-of-Time

Tesla Universe- Tesla Timeline 1870. Tesla Moves to Karlovac. "Tesla moves to Karlovac (Carlstadt), Croatia and stays with his aunt and Col. "Old War-Horse" Branković." http://www.teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/timeline/1870-tesla-moves-karlovac

Prodigal Genius: The Life of Nikola Tesla by John J. O'Neil. page 37 "At the age of fifteen Tesla, in 1870, continued his studies at the Higher Real Gymnasium, corresponding to our college, at Karlovac (Carlstadt) in Croatia." https://books.google.com.au/books?id=dt-BAgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=prodigal+genius+tesla+scribd&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAWoVChMI2um-0KuxxwIVIiWmCh35uQqq#v=onepage&q&f=false

Lightning In His Hand The Life Story of Nikola Tesla. by Inez Hunt and Wanetta W. Draper. page 21. "When he had reached the age of fifteen he was sent to Higher Real Gymnasium in Karlovac, (Carlstadt), Croatia..." https://books.google.com.au/books?id=-nAfAQAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=croatia

In the early years section we should write that- Tesla moved to Karlovac, Croatia to attend school at the Higher Real Gymnasium, where he was profoundly influenced by a math teacher Martin Sekulić.Kindly Deeds (talk) 00:56, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Besides the source found in the article, we can all see here the original documents from the school in Karlovac and his grades. The website is not reliable, but the documents are. They clearly say Rakovac, Militargrentze. Also, the reason why he attended classes in German was precisely because the school was within Military Frontier, and not Croatia, at time Tesla attended it. FkpCascais (talk) 13:45, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
It would seems that MitMot, Kindly deeds and Michael "I am not a sock puppet" Cambridge have been shown to be sock puppets of each other at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Asdisis. Given this information I think we can just ignore this unless someone more sincere wants to make an argument. Chillum 15:19, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid for Wikipedia when it is ok to ignore a request although sources have been presented. Regardless of the editor, sources should be reviewed and discussed to see if they can yield and edit. To me it seems that anyone who mentions Croatia is designated as Croatian nationalist by default and people who are rejecting sources because a certain editor had posted them are regarded as objective. This is a clear example of ad-hominem attack. This Asdisis case and this article is a very interesting material to study how wikipedia actually works. 16:54, 20 August 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.164.185.106 (talk)

I have said it before and I will say it again, "Amazing how many of these IPs know who Asidis is".
Why it is almost like it is the same person coming here over and over again making a transparent effort to pretend to be more than one person. Seriously buddy, we are not going to fall for it. Chillum 20:44, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Again. It's not important who makes the request, but the sources and you are neglecting them because of the person who presented them. You pretty much summed it above. 141.138.50.1 (talk) 21:33, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
The sources have been addressed several times and have failed to enjoy consensus. Pretending to be more than one person will not create the illusion of support for the idea of rewriting history, particularly when it is done with so obviously. Compared to the sock puppets we are used this is amateur hour. Very clear you are the same IP the has been pretending to be a new person here for months. If you are going to bullshit at least do it with some talent. Chillum 21:38, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
No they haven't. Good luck protecting your fort. I just stated the obvious. Goodbye. 141.138.50.1 (talk) 22:22, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Too many IPs from Zagreb trying to push a nationalist point of view. Binksternet (talk) 04:21, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
Again with personal attacks. I'm not purposing any edit, I came to point out that this article is a fort and you 2 are proving my point. 141.136.206.141 (talk) 09:58, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Were the students and teachers at the Karlovac high school mostly ethnic Croats or mostly ethnic Serbs? --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:29, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2015

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla#Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2015 per 16 June 2015 RfC consensus --ChetvornoTALK 13:03, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Whoever wrote this is a complete idiot, be he wrote that Nikola Tesla is from Serbia. I as a Croatian I find that very offensive. Nikola Tesla never set foot in Serbia, but he will always be and idol to every Croatian scientist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BlueEyeRabbit (talk • contribs) 17:37, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Serbian Studies, Volume 6, 1991, published by the North American Society for Serbian Studies, says that "Tesla visited Serbia in 1892". Presumably he had both feet with him at the time. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:21, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

It is not stated that Tesla was from Serbia. He was ethnic Serb. He indeed set foot in Serbia, and on that occasion he said: I am happy/lucky for being a Serb, and that name I will be proud of forever...--Zoupan 05:23, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Александар Маринчић (2006). Život Nikole Tesle. Zavod za udžbenike i nastavna sredstva. Ја сам срећан, што сам Србин, и тијем именом поносићу се до вијека.
  • "Тесла: Србин сам и тамо далеко". Novosti. Ја сам срећан што сам Србин, и тијем именом поносићу се до вијека. Колијевка мојијех дједова, краљевина Србија, пријестоница Србинова позива ме – то је одликовање за мене велико и ништа ми на свијету, у животу моме, неће бити драже од овог одликовања.

Not Serbian American Inventor

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla#Not Serbian American Inventor per 16 June 2015 consensus --ChetvornoTALK 13:08, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Just a little mistake that you've made. Nikola Tesla was born in Smiljan, that is village near Gospić wich is situated inside borders of Croatian Republic.Check wiki for this :P. His origin was Serbian. So in that matter he was Serbian Croatian inventor. He only worked in America. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.164.56.91 (talk) 12:06, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

The Serbian American [ethnic] community includes Serbs in the US regardless of country of origin. He was an American inventor.--Zoupan 05:15, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Also, Tesla became a naturalized US citizen on 30 July 1891, in New York City, less than a decade after immigrating there, so he clearly intended to belong to America. Editors should pay attention to what is in the WP article. Parkwells (talk) 01:37, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Interpretation of sources

Moved From Talk:Nikola Tesla#Interpretation of sources per 16 June 2015 RfC consensus - MrX 17:42, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

How come a source listed under 1 is interpreted? There's a difference between "listed" and "had". I also would like to know the answer to why a number of sources neglect are neglected. Sources that speak of Tesla birthplace to be Croatia, Military Frontier, Croatian Military Frontier, some say Montenegro, and some say Serbia. Don't tell me there's a consensus because I see those questions raised in the former discussions and no consensus. Wikipedia should sum what the sources say, and the sources on Tesla's birthplace are all over the place, yet that isn't mentioned. It seems to me that sources are not being followed. 104.238.83.28 (talk) 17:36, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

No sources claim he was born in Montenegro or Serbia.--Zoupan 23:24, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello. I posted some posts in the below discussion and I noticed your post here. Here are some sources:
"It is singular that this remarkable man should have come to us from one of the smallest and least known nations of Europe, Montenegro;" (Nikola Tesla. One of the Century's Greatest Electricians. Many Famous Scientists Acknowledge Him Their Chief)
" Tesla was born in Serbia in 1856, and his life followed a rags-to-riches-to-rags trajectory that would sound melodramatic if it weren't so tragic and true -- or told with such surprising charm in The Invention of Everything Else."(Don Oldenburg. "Focus; Nikola Who?; You Know, He's the Inventor and Contemporary of Edison & Marconi.")
As we know, Tesla comes from Croatia (according to Tesla), however I answered you to this post not to claim he was born in Montenegro or Serbia, but to show you that a lot of secondary sources are making various statements without any reference. Tesla's birthplace isn't really an opened question as we have the primary source withe Tesla's statement that he was born in Croatia. However, there is no such source for his ethnicity or nationality, and that is the cause for all these numerous discussions. 141.138.62.230 (talk) 01:27, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Are you serious? You are citing The Roanoke Times, 12 May 1893. That is not "a lot of sources". Try citing 21st-century sources next time. We have all sources we need for his ethnicity, nationality and birth place. Haven't you heard already? --Zoupan 07:31, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Look, you said that there are none, so I found one of each in the previous discussions, just to show you that there are sources which claim even the most improbable claims. In fact every singe secondary source used in this article just makes a statement about Tesla's birthplace. Thus we had the same situation as for Tesla's ethnicity. A bunch of sources making various statements. Of course we had all this discussions, when none of those sources provided a definite answer. Then the primary source of Tesla himself stating that he was born in Croatia was found, and that put an end to that matter. Similar situation we have about his ethnicity. Since in the question about his ethnicity we don't have any source which provides anything more than a statement, we can't conclude anything. We can't take one statement over the other. I really don't see how anyone can disagree with that. If you think that there are sources that provide a definite answer, feel free to provide them. I would be happy to participate in the closure of another hard question. Why is your attitude so hostile when I just had provided some sources you obviously weren't aware of? I said I'm not making any claims, I just wanted to correct you when you said that there are no such sources. 89.164.195.67 (talk) 13:05, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Croatian Ortodox

As we all know Nikola was born in Croatia in ortodox family. I have researched and today in Croatia there are ortofox families which are proclaimed as Croats. Before Homeland War Croatia had population of Serbs from 13% to 20% (approximately 650,000 - 1,000,000), but after the war there are 186,633 Serbs in Croatia (in 2011) which is approximately 4%. So how do we know he wasn't Serbo-Croatian, or just Croatian, his birth certificate was written in Latin, not Cyrillic. His father was ortotox priest in Croatian ortodox church and in Croatian city. So at least, write Serbo-Croatian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Desciplation (talk • contribs) 09:29, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

His father was not a priest in the Croatian Orthodox Church. His ethnicity was Serb, and he was born in the Military Frontier of the Austrian Empire, in a territory which today is Croatia. Your evaluation of the demographic decline of Serbs due to the Croatian War makes zero sense.--Zoupan 10:00, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Desciplation , I agree, no sense into your demographic evaluation. Secondly, Serbo-Croatian is not a nationality. There was a good discussion about nationality in Austrian Empire during Tesla's time, so you can read it. As far as I can read it, it is written in Croatian. About his ethnicity, there's no doubt what the secondary sources say. He was Serbian. However, no primary source was yet presented that would verify that so we have a bunch of sources just repeating each other on that question. The reason for all this discussions about Tesla's ethnicity is the lack of any primary source. Although many secondary sources state that he is Serbian, there are also those sources that state he was Croatian. In my opinion, there's no definite answer to Tesla's ethnicity. About Tesla's birthplace, there was also a long discussion. There's no doubt that Tesla was born in Croatia, since we have a reliable primary source of Tesla himself stating that he was born in Croatia (although some people might say that he was misinformed or even lying ;) ). There's also his passport image somewhere here with clearly stated that it was issued by Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia, so there's really no open questions about his birthplace. Some people would like to separate Military Frontier from Croatia, but during Tesla's time Military Frontier pretty much lost its purpose and it was considered to be a part of Croatia, although it was not completely abolished and returned to Croatian administration until 1881. I would like to see such definite primary sources regarding his ethnicity, however I doubt they can be found so easily. I spent a lot of time searching for them and there's only so much you can do over internet. Also, many of Tesla's personal files are in Belgrade and not available to view. Well there is that one story about Tesla's diary where he says that his ethnicity is Croatian, however that is the story of one Croatian scientist who had supposedly read that diary in Belgrade. Since no diary is made public, we can't confirm that claim. That is why many people believe that Belgrade is hiding Tesla's diary since Serbia is invested a lot in Tesla's brand. Best regards, if you have some questions, I would gladly answer them since I'm quite familiar with this subject. 89.164.241.98 (talk) 23:15, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

How many identities are you going to use on this talk page Adsisis/Desciplation/numerous IPs? Surely you must realize how transparent it is that you are just one person. HighInBC 23:19, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
The fact that the lack of reliable primary source on Tesla's ethnicity is the cause to all this discussions is very obvious. There is no primary source that could be considered to be neutral and reliable. None of many secondary sources which state a certain claim have any reference to any primary source and although they can be used on Wikipedia, they do not provide any answer to the question. The correct answer to Tesla's ethnicity is: unknown, but most presumably Croatian or Serbian. If someone is willing to resolve that questions objectively, I'm willing to help. I come here now and then and, as in this case, I'll try to help the interested people to continue from the point where the previous discussions left so there's at least some progress instead of countless repeating of the same arguments and sources. As I see, you didn't come here to discuss the subject, so what's your point? If you don't want to contribute at least don't make such pointless comments as this one. And also, your insinuation is wrong. 89.164.164.117 (talk) 23:16, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Tesla was not born in Croatia, Tesla was born in the Military Frontier which was a multiethnic crownland of the Austrian Empire which was heavily inhabited by Serbs. It is unrelated and irrelevant to Tesla the fact that Croatian Orthodox Church was formed a century later in order to eliminate Serb culture in Croatia. FkpCascais (talk) 23:52, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
I'd rather believe Tesla himself on that matter since we have a reliable primary source. I think he's bright enough to know where he was born, not to mention that he was much more familiar with the situation of that area in the 19th century, so your interpretation just now is really pointless and much wrong. Luckily since we have a primary source we don't need to go to this long discussion full of subjective interpretations. I point out that I disagree, but I don't want to argument my stand so I rather point out to the primary source that denies your claim. I agree that Croatian Orhodox Church is irrelevant to Tesla and I don't understand why are you replying me with that argument. However I will just point out that people of orthodox faith declared themselves as Croats in the 19th century in pretty large numbers. The situation was much different than later on when everyone of orthodox faith started to identify themselves as Serbs. Here's an example: Svetozar Boroevic. So if you have nothing new to add, there's no point into repeating old arguments. The sum of my 3 posts are undeniable facts. We have a primary source where Tesla himself states that he was born in Croatia which pretty much solves the question to how he felt about his birthplace. Secondly, there are no primary sources to determine his ethnicity, but most presumably his ethnicity was Serbian or Croatian, or a mix of those two. Also I would like to add that his own opinion about his nationality is also undetermined. I'm sorry, but the lack of primary sources is such that we can argue all days about our interpretations, but without a reliable primary source this question will not be solved. As you know, all I said is not strictly related to Wikipedia which makes a sum of secondary sources, but generally as a scientific and objective way to resolve an opened question. So if there's no new sources you wish to provide I suggest we don't continue this discussion. Your stand that Tesla had lied when he stated that he was born in Croatia is declared earlier, and I can only repeat my stand that this is your personal interpretation. I don't think much people would take Tesla as a liar, especially when there is so many literature that puts Tesla out of Croatian-Serbian conflicts and defines him as Yugoslav oriented. 89.164.164.117 (talk) 01:20, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Look up the word "ethnicity" in the dictionary and then tell us what ethnic group Tesla belonged to (without sources, your personal observation). Reliable sources, as pointed out 1000 times, support the fact that he was Serb, and not Croat.--Zoupan 03:49, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

"Wikipedia reliable" source has the much different meaning than "scientifically reliable" source. I'm speaking of the latter. So to repeat, there is no reliable source that would determine Tesla's ethnicity. The majority of sources say that he is either Serbian or Croatian, but none of those sources have dealt with that question specifically and none of those sources provide an answer. You can't put one group of sources in front of other, when both groups just make a statement. Not that majority of sources say Croatian or Serbian, but there are others, and those others also can not be viewed as more wrong simply because those are in minority. All those sources just make a statement, and I feel that without a reliable primary source we can not solve this question objectively, as we did in the question of Tesla's birthplace. I really tried to find such a source, but I haven't managed to find it yet. Most of the people here are not interested into resolving this objectively, but are interested into pushing their own view. Not just people here, but people of much more influence. Not to get into the reasoning, but I claim that Serbian officials would never release Tesla's diary to the public if the claims made earlier are true. 141.138.62.230 (talk) 14:34, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Irrefutable facts... List of Tesla who came to America, in the list of 90 Tesla, there are 5 or 6 Serbs, some Austrians and Hungarians and most of Croats ..mostly under race are Croats but under nationality are mostly Austrians and Hungarians, although exist some Croats under nationality..

Evidence The Ellis Island

example First Name: Sava Last Name: Tesla Ethnicity: Hungary, Croatian Last Place of Residence: Radoca Date of Arrival: Dec 31, 1906

First Name: Petar Last Name: Tesla Ethnicity: Croatia, Croatian Last Place of Residence: Brdo Date of Arrival: Mar 11, 1903 --- In his diary Nikola Tesla says that his mother is from Croatian noble family and his grandfather on my father's side Croat, marry Orthodox woman from northwestern Bosnia or Turkish Croatia and switches to Orthodoxy....

Evidence Museum of Nikola Tesla, Belgrade Diary is never exposed for public.. Diary was published once at Yugoslav television, and there was no reaction.. Otherwise, diary was given from Americans because they do not contain anything important for science ... but there is something much more important that public must never know and that's Croatian origin Nikola Tesla...that this is not so, it would be a major exhibit at any museum in the world..

Evidence.. List of places around the birthplace of Nikola Tesla ... 1712 ... not a single Serb is not mentioned, Croats are mentioned

Austro-Hungarian population census of military frontier region.. http://www.skdprosvjeta.com/pdf/9.pdf

Evidence..

Many of rebels in the first Serbian uprising 1804 have not even heard of Serbia, and even less in Croatia..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zOIjZLKiwE&list=UU5L8_BqrQqicG3fLFvZK0Jg&index=2— Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.19.194 (talk • contribs)

Evidence, right... Some classical (and very pathetic) Serb-denying going on. His 1892 speech at Belgrade goes (in English translation): "...I am happy/lucky for being a(n ethnic) Serb, and that name I will be proud of forever". His 1936 telegram to Maček says, in Serbo-Croatian: "...JEDNAKO SE PONOSIM MOGA SRBSKOG RODA I MOJE HRVATSKE DOMOVINE ZIVILI SVI JUGOSLAVENI". So, by ethnicity this person could only have been a Serb, according to himself, historiography and ethnography. Now, it is very interesting that you are using the term "scientifically reliable", when, in fact, none of your sources claim ("scientifically", or in any other form) that Tesla was ethnic Croat.--Zoupan 23:16, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

So, an irrefutable fact is that the Tesla are Serb, and not of Croat ethnicity or ethnic origin. I am sorry if this upsets you. He is still revered in Croatia, though, despite being non-Croat, and I think you should too, instead of pushing this anti-truth.--Zoupan 23:16, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Let's not demonize each side for its opinion. Since the question is unresolved, everyone is free to persuade their leads. Zoupan, the Tesla's statement from 1892 would be the primary source that would resolve this question. Could you present the source so we could evaluate it. Other secondary sources are really just making a statement, and statements really do not bring any value. I can also make a statement right now and it would be of equal value as those in the sources you just presented. For instance, according to Valentin Ovidiu Vazdoag, Tesla was Romanian (and that's a reliable secondary published source by Wikipedia's standards). Sorry to say, but that claim is of equal value to those your sources stated. I'm far better expert for Tesla's ethnicity than any of the authors in the sources listed in all of this discussions and the article page. I've dealt with that question extensively and those authors just copy from each other, because Tesla's ethnicity is not their point of interest. So let's not bother to put forward the sources which just make a statement. So let's get back to primary sources. You put forward that often quoted statement from Tesla. If you have the reliable (in the scientific sense) source for that statement, put it forwards and let's close this discussions once and forever. Lastly, just to mention this from Serbian paper "Politika" which states that there are source which list Tesla as: Serbian, Croatian,American,Romanian, Greek, Czech, Austrian,Hungarian,Swede,Bulgarian. As I mentioned above, his ethnicity is unknown, and it is wrong to look at this question as of Croatian-Serbian dispute. 141.138.62.230 (talk) 23:51, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Undeniable fact..


And Novak Djokovic said that is Serb and Serbian son .... but still is Croatian origin... Tesla when entering to United States did not declare himself as a Serb under Race and obviousy he considered that is not a Serb...

If Tesla says that his ancestors are Croatian origin then respect this and write in Wikipedia...and whole world will write about Croatian origin of Tesla.. as long Tesla diary is kept in atomic shelter most of the writers will write bout Tesla as a Serb..

If his father was an Orthodox priest does not mean that all Orthodox Christians in the Balkans and the world are ethnic Serbs...

Large number of Croats in the Turkish period exceeds to the Orthodoxy and a large number of Orthodox Vlachs coming to Croatia and Bosnia ... today there is not one Vlach in Croatia or Bosnia... all are Serbs...because they were Orthodox Christians...

You have thousands of people from Croatia who come to America 100 years ago with Orthodox and east Balkan names that under races declare as Croats, today descendants of the same are ethnic Serbs in Croatia..

I think this discussion is useless. I'll just repeat my point that such discussions will happen since the question of Tesla's ethnicity is unresolved. A bunch of secondary sources just make a statement (Serbian, Croatian,American,Romanian, Greek, Czech, Austrian,Hungarian,Swede,Bulgarian) and we can't say which group of sources is right. We need more than just a statement. A secondary source which deals more elaborately with that question or a primary source. The discussion about Tesla's birthplace was very much the same, until the primary source of Tesla himself stating that he was born in Croatia was found. I'll try to stay out of it. Some people obviously have a very hostile attitude when their point of view questioned, but it will be questioned as long as this isn't resolved properly. And it won't be resolved properly until we have something more than a bunch of sources making various statements and nothing more.89.164.195.67 (talk) 13:51, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Tesla not declaring himself under race as a Serb doesn't imply that Tesla hadn't considered himself a Serb. It could've been for many of reasons he hadn't declared as a Serb: one simple is that the designation Serb isn't considered a race. At least not nowadays. --biblbroks (talk | contribs) 22:21, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

How can you be sure

IP has been blocked for block evasion. If any editor in good standing thinks this discussion has merit, they are welcome to undo this closure. HighInBC 17:14, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

If you all cant be sure whenever it is Tesla or not in this picture then why you have to be sure that Tesla was serbian? How can you be sure that Tesla was born in a serbian village. Why that village was not albanian? Knowing the history of albanians I may say that the village was albanian and not serbian. How can you be sure that Nikola Tesla spoke russian language which is the same with serbian language and he didnt speak albanian language? Language is a point showing to what nationality belongs a person.109.236.39.196 (talk) 12:28, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

No one is sure of Tesla's ethnicity since there are no primary sources on that matter. Tesla was born in Smiljan, a Croatian village, and I don't think that anyone is denying that, especially when we have a reliable primary source of Tesla himself stating that. Tesla't mother language is Croatian, as it can be seen on his diploma. I haven't seen any source claiming he spoke Albanian, but that's not my point of interest so I'm maybe wrong. 89.164.248.19 (talk) 22:06, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Nice monologue. First thing, itdoesnt matter what editors think about that being, or not, Tesla, on the picture, we have sources saying that is Tesla, and that is what matters. Second, who says Smiljan was a "Croatian village" at time of Tesla birth? You know Smiljan was not part of Croatia at that time, do you? FkpCascais (talk) 23:16, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
I was the ip on the talk page who agreed the picture can stay. Tesla is the one who stated that he was born in Croatia. Smiljan was legally a part of Croatia when Tesla was born there, a part of Croatia under military administration from Vienna, called Croatian Military Frontier. I think you are familiar with the sources. Tesla's statement that he was born in Croatia is somewhere here in this discussions and the sources for Military Frontier being a part of Croatia are in Military Frontier article. I think I will make another topic to restate those sources here so we have them in both places. It will be useful to some people who are more interested in that subject, since the article doesn't deal in that subject more carefully. This talk pages are often more useful that the article itself. When I will have time I'll try to spend it to summarize this walls of text into a concise topic which states all sources so people who come here for the first time do not need to spent a great amount of time to get familiarized with the past discussions. Until then I'm here to help with my knowledge of the past discussions. 89.164.248.19 (talk) 23:29, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Primary and secondary sources indeed exist on that matter. These state that he was a Serb. Smiljan, Raduč, Tomingaj were inhabited by Serbs. These villages were all part of the Military Frontier, Austria (note Habsburg Croatia at the time of his birth).--Zoupan 00:01, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
There are no primary sources on Tesla's ethnicity. Secondary sources who mention it do not have basis in primary sources and state various things: Serbian, Croatian,American,Romanian, Greek, Czech, Austrian,Hungarian,Swede,Bulgarian. Military Frontier was legally a part of Croatia in Tesla's time. I invested some time reading Military Frontier article and sources provided there so I'll restate those sources here in a separate topic so it's more visible. 89.164.248.19 (talk) 11:35, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Please everyone, we should avoid giving more space to an indef-banned editor who was banned for these precise iissues he continues to insist at. I will ping blocking admins and we can remove this since he is not bringing nothing new at all, just bringing the same old stuff and hopping he will fool someone new. Besides ban evasion, clear vandalism too. FkpCascais (talk) 17:08, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Just some sources for those interested

I would like to post this sources for those more interested.

First source is the secondary source which discusses the Kings proclamation from 1850.

"After many pleas from Jelecic, in 1850 the King's proclamation, which was signed by all 8 Austrian ministers, was finally announced...For Military Frontier, the King decided that it will remain within its present territory. However, it will with, Croatia and Slavonia, constitute a single land with disaggregated provincial and military administration, and representation." [7] , page 157.

The second source is Tesla's own statement in his letter to New York Times: "I was born in Croatia." [8].

89.164.197.214 (talk) 21:20, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Editing against a consensus

(moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla per notice at top of page) --ChetvornoTALK 20:33, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Please change "His father, Milutin Tesla, was a Serbian Orthodox priest." to "His father, Milutin Tesla, was an Orthodox priest.". A rfc was done and a consensus was reached here. 141.136.243.56 (talk) 18:01, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. I don't see an actual consensus being reached in the discussion.It looks like it ended with a request or suggestion for another rfc? Feel free to request the edit again if you feel I have made an error and another editor can review it. --Cameron11598 (Converse) 07:06, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
The consensus has been established an an edit has been done. That edit has stood for a long time until recently someone had changed the article. Maybe you haven't scrolled down to the RfC so I'll post the consensus that was established in the RfC by Srich32977 : "The consensus is to keep the present text, which reads "Nikola Tesla was born ... to Serbian parents... His father, ... was an Orthodox priest.Tesla's mother['s] ... father was also an Orthodox priest,..." ". I will also contact the admin who had closed the RfC, so he can post his clarification here. 89.164.127.101 (talk) 16:10, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
Here is the edit done by the editor who had closed the RfC [9], on 4 August 2014. And here is the edit that was done without a consensus and against a standing consensus [10] on 13 February 2016. I think this might help. 89.164.127.101 (talk) 16:41, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 Done Looks like the RfC is here. Cameron11598, was there really no consensus, or did I miss something? Revert this if I'm wrong. — Andy W. (talk · contrib) 01:32, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
No, you did not miss anything. Nether did people who push their POV when they had allowed for this edit to stay for months.212.15.178.1 (talk) 06:59, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Tesla's birthplace

Hello. I'm contacting you here regarding Croatia as Tesla's birthplace. I doubt you can introduce such a claim in the article so I wonder. Where exactly in the article you see that Tesla was born in Croatia? 89.164.181.8 (talk) 00:14, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

I've moved an editor's comment from my Talk page to here (above). The Tesla article states he was "born in the village of Smiljan, Austrian Empire (modern-day Croatia"[1]).[2][3] I'm satisfied with those sources and that expression referring to the historic place (Austrian Empire) and current political jurisdiction (modern-day Croatia).Parkwells (talk) 00:23, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Oh, you are not familiar that this statement is constructed especially to deny the claim that Tesla was born in Croatia. The English language really misses out the tone that sentence has in Serbian. Ok, I said I can be of help. If you want your edit "He was born in Croatia and had early schooling there, going to present-day Austria, Czechoslovakia and Hungary for advanced studies and work, and working also in France" to be introduced in the article, change it to "He was born in Austrian Empire and had early schooling there, going to present-day Austria, Czechoslovakia and Hungary for advanced studies and work, and working also in France". Also fix the awkward wording and that's it. I hope this helps. 89.164.181.8 (talk) 00:42, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Cheney, Uth & Glenn 1999, p. 143.
  2. ^ O'Neill, John Joseph (1944). Prodigal Genius: The Life of Nikola Tesla. Ives Washburn. ISBN 0-914732-33-1.
  3. ^ O'Neill 2007, pp. 9, 12

Tesla's ethnicity, a proper discussion

IP has been blocked for block evasion. If any editor in good standing thinks this discussion has merit, they are welcome to undo this closure. HighInBC 16:44, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


I've been following the discussions on this page and it is time to tackle this hard question in a proper way, so we can put a stop to reopening the same old questions.

1. Is Tesla's ethnicity unknown according to known sources?
2. Should the article state that his ethnicity is a disputed question?
3. Are secondary sources which use primary sources as a reference more valuable than secondary sources which provide just a statement "Tesla's ethnicity is X"? What should be done if all source on this matter provide nothing more than statements not founded in reliable primary sources? Can Wikipedia make a decision that one group of sources are more valuable than the other based solely on the quantity, something that scientific and logical approach does not approve? How to establish that quantity? And more extremely, can Wikipedia then declare one group of sources not only to be more valuable that the other group, but to be entirely correct and another group to be entirely incorrect and completely leave them out of article? 16:27, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

16:27, 27 April 2016 (UTC) I'll try to be objective.

There isn't a single source which deals with the question of Tesla's ethnicity specifically. We have a bunch of sources which claim various things :"Croatian,Serbian,Greek,Montenegrin,Muslim...". Since there isn't a single source which deals with this question specifically, all the source are just making claims similar to: "Tesla's ethnicity is X". What is the proper way to give due weight to that king of sources? Can we make a claim that a group of sources which say X are more reliable than the sources that say Y? Can we say that in the case there is a majority of sources that say X we should completely omit the sources which say Y, having in mind that none of those sources provides anything more than a simple statement. Can one statement repeated more times have more weight than a different statement repeated less times?

There are no primary sources on this matter, and the secondary sources do not even provide a footnote or any other kind of reference to their claims. They simply don't deal with this matter and they just repeat each other in much of the cases. This situation had led to walls of text and no resolution to this question. Are the walls of text and countless discussions enough to say that there are conflicting opinions on this matter?

I should also note to those unfamiliar that this discussion is on high tensions so expect very subjective opinions and accusations of nationalistic stands. I think we could use objective editors previously not involved in this topic on either side. I also ask of everyone who will participate not to accuse either side of having some hidden agenda, but to value their stand upon their arguments.

I should also note that my ip changes often so you can regard every comment starting with the ip 89 or 141 as mine, if I don't note otherwise. I'm sorry, but that is a deep of my ISP and I can't help it. I also sometimes post from my mobile device which means I will then have a different ip address. I will note that if I think the context isn't enough to know that's me. 19:38, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

89.164.168.175 (talk) 18:30, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

  • No and no. First off, you are violating your own observation by "reopening the same old question". Your unspoken question is "Should we ignore the strength of the sources which establish a Serbian ethnicity so that the Croatian advocates can settle for a tie or draw rather than losing the game?" I think the WP:SECONDARY sources, the ones that Wikipedia considers most important, are the ones that we should pay the most attention to. Those say Tesla was Serbian ethnicity. Binksternet (talk) 18:44, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
I think there will be a benefit from a proper discussion for future use. I would appreciate if you could value my spoken stand instead of asserting my unspoken stand in your own interpretation. I also could now question your intentions when you haven't touched on the questions I had raised, but instead you had immediately started to question my intentions. We have had enough of that kind of discussions and we don't need another one. Your comment doesn't help in that regard since you have pretty much labeled me as someone with a hidden agenda, while the second part of your comment doesn't even touch to the question of this RfC. I had clearly said that there are no primary sources but that we only have secondary sources (as you have repeated) which don't bring anything more than a conflicting statements like: Tesla's ethnicity is X or Y. That is the question of this RfC. Having said that, I can somewhat agree with your stand that the majority of the sources should have the most attention, but I do not agree that means all attention. Especially in the case when we have nothing more than a statement, no footnotes, no references to the primary sources. In the scientific sense the answer to the question of Tesla's ethnicity is that it is unknown. There is no doubt to that, the question is what should Wikipedia state. That is why I had included Wiki policy in this RfC so more experienced editors can share their opinion of this situation. I think that along with other arguments, for instance more than 10 years of heavy discussing on this matter is pretty much a hard argument to say that Tesla's ethnicity is disputed. It is not disputed only between Croats and Serbs, as you maybe are not aware of. 89.164.168.175 (talk) 19:00, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Various claims on Tesla's ethnicity

Ok, I found the article I had seen in the past and lost track of. The article is named: "Serbians angry to Tesla's Romanian ethnicity theories"

This source brings the statement by Vladimir Jelenković, director of Tesla's museum in Belgrade [11]

"Vladimir Jelenković ..., had confirmed that the theories on Tesla's Romanian ethnicity are very often."

The article brings to attention various claims on Tesla's ethnicity: "Serbian, American, Austrian, Hungarian, Croatian,Greek,Czech, Bulgarian,Swede"

89.164.182.205 (talk) 19:17, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Sources that deal with the question of Tesla's ethnicity more extensively with references and primary sources that back up the claims would be highly valued. Maybe I had missed them. 89.164.182.205 (talk) 20:30, 26 April 2016 (UTC) 22:29, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

  • Use self-identification And, AFAICT, Tesla self-identified as a Serb. Certainly he is quoted as averring such. The fact is that Serbs and Croats have basically the same language with different script, and a strange interlocking history. Modern political borders are of little use in such a matter. Collect (talk) 12:34, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
A great question to raise in this RfC. If a source which claims "Tesla declares himself as X" without any primary source or any reference to that claim more valuable than "Tesla is X". I have referenced this discussion in Wiki policy so hopefully someone will catch it and give their opinion on this question as well. The purpose of this discussion is not just what Wikipedia should say, but what is the answer to the question of Tesla's ethnicity. Scientifically and logically speaking sources that provide blunt statements like "Tesla is X","Tesla says he is X" without any reference or any primary source can't be used to determine the answer to the question of Tesla's ethnicity. Those sources are not more valuable than sources saying "Tesla is Y". However it will be interesting to hear what should Wikipedia state in the article when confronted with such a situation. I'm, as the most people , more interested in answering the question of Tesla's ethnicity objectively (based on primary sources) than what is stated on Wikipedia. In my opinion Wikipedia should regard secondary sources which reference a primary source more valuable than the secondary sources which have no reference to any primary source. The real question from the Wiki policy is what to do when no sources give anything more than a statement. Can Wikipedia than jump away from logic and declare one group of sources to be more valuable based on the quantity and not quality? And more extremely, can Wikipedia then declare one group of sources not only to be more valuable but to be correct and another group to be incorrect and leave them out of article completely? The RfC should deal with that questions and maybe that wasn't clear enough so I will add it to the lead so people more familiar with Wiki policy will see them. 141.138.62.20 (talk) 16:20, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

From Wikiquote:

There is something within me that might be illusion as it is often case with young delighted people, but if I would be fortunate to achieve some of my ideals, it would be on the behalf of the whole of humanity. If those hopes would become fulfilled, the most exciting thought would be that it is a deed of a Serb. (Address at the Belgrade train station (1 June 1892)

Appears to be widely cited. Collect (talk) 19:39, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Source? I feel that this is yet another statement like "Tesla is X". The different formulation "Tesla says he is X" doesn't make it more credible if we can't contribute that statement to Tesla. If someone can contribute that statement to Tesla that would completely solve the dispute. If not contribute that statement to Tesla , then at least find a contemporary newspaper which is a source for that statement. That is the very minimum so we actually know that this isn't made up. Now, I've seen your post 4 hours ago and I've spent 4 hours researching. I couldn't find a source for that statement. However I had found several contemporary newspaper articles from that same time. The articles are from Croatian newspapers and they regard Tesla as "our countryman". Here is what contemporary Croatian newspaper
"Dom i sviet" had written on 15th June 1896 : "Croat Nikola Tesla". [12]
Without a contemporary source to that Wikiquote I feel that we can't consider it reliable, and having in mind this contemporary source we can even regard it as extremely unreliable. However, if we could find a contemporary source for that Wikiquote, it would be of great help help to question 2. of this RfC, because we could establish that Tesla's ethnicity is disputed even in contemporary sources. If we don't find any other contemporary source claiming otherwise that the already presented source it will also be worthwhile mentioning what the contemporary sources say and that there is no dispute between them. 141.136.197.12 (talk) 22:10, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Look - the quote is widely cited and it shows self-identification of his ethnicity. I suggest you read the discussions from Template talk:Infobox person to assure yourself that self-identification is the Wikipedia standard, and not the opinions of any newspaper reporter. [13], [14], [15] and so on. Tesla was an ethnic Serb, self-identified as such, who was born in what is now Croatia. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:22, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Self-identification can be used in the article and it can be used to answer the question itself (which is even more than simply state it on Wikipedia). However, a certain statement of self-identification has to be contributed to a person. The quote you had provided we can't even track to a contemporary source let alone contribute to Tesla. So far someone can claim the quote is made up, that is why it's important to find a source. You had provided a secondary source which restates that quote, however it provides no reference to the primary source. That is one of the major issues raised in this RfC. If you think a source that does that is enough, then write your opinion on the question number 3 raised by this RfC. That way we can have a conclusion at the end. For instance a conclusion something like this: "Wikipedia is allowing for Tesla's ethnicity to be states as X, although no secondary sources which claim X have a single reference to such a claim". Even that is more than we have now. Understand that scientific/objective answer to a question may be different than what Wikipedia states. For instance ,in this hypothetical case the answer to Tesla's ethnicity is "unknown" and Wikipedia will state "X", with this discussion as an explanation to why the scientific answer differs from Wikipedia's answer. My interest lies in this discussion (and the scientific/objective approach) and not in what the article says. However I want it to be clear why the article says something it says, so there is no misunderstanding. I think that is the best approach to deal with over 10 years of pointless discussions. Then people who disagree with what Wikipedia says can see why it says so and know that this is not a definite answer to that question, but the best Wikipedia can do in this situation.141.136.197.12 (talk) 23:01, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Sources

This article brings the statement of Vladimir Jelenković, director of Tesla's museum in Belgrade. The exact quote is" "Vladimir Jelenković ..., had confirmed that the theories on Tesla's Romanian ethnicity are very often.". The article also brings that Tesla had been classified as : "Serbian, American, Austrian, Hungarian, Croatian,Greek,Czech, Bulgarian,Swede". I've spent some time to find some sources so I'll post what I had found so far in this subsection. Feel free to add sources to this subsection.

(1) Serbian - I think there's enough of those sources listed in the article.

(2) Croatian

"Croat Nikola Tesla" - "Dom i sviet" had written on 15th June 1896 : . [16] -> This is a contemporary source. The link also brings several contemporary Croatian articles where Tesla is called "our countrymen".
"Croatian Inventors: Nikola Tesla.." [17]
The Croatian immigrants in America - mentioned in the book [18]
"The dawn of the 20th century produced some of the greatest names in Croatian science. Nikola Tesla..." [19]
"The Croatian-American scientist Nikola Tesla" [20]
"of Croatian origin" - [21]
"Tesla, Nikola (1856-1943) Croatian-born US physicist and electrical engineer " [22]

(3) Austrian

"Austrian Nikola Tesla" [23]
"Nikola Tesla Austrian/ American Inventor" [24]
"Nikola Tesla, Austrian-born American electrician and inventor" [25]
"Nikola Tesla, Austrian immigrant" [26]

(4) Slavic

"Nikola Tesla (1856-1943), Slavic-American electrical" [27]


(5) Hungarian

"Nikola Tesla (Hungarian)" [28]
"Tesla, the Hungarian Electrician" [29]
"Nikola Tesla, the brilliant Hungarian-American scientist" [30]
"Nikola Tesla, the Hungarian electrician" [31]
"Nikola Tesla, the Hungarian electrician" [32]

(6) Yugoslav

"Nikola Tesla and Professor Pupin, are Yugoslavs" [33]
"Nikola Tesla, Yugoslav-American electrical inventor..." [34]
"Yugoslav inventor Nikola Tesla" [35]
"Yugoslav-born physicist Nikola Tesla" [36]
"Famous Yugoslav American inventor" [37]
"Nikola Tesla ... great Yugoslav scientist" [38]
"The biography of a famous Yugoslav American inventor whose work helped to develop the age of electrical engineering" [39]
"The two great Yugoslav physicists, Nikola Tesla..." [40]
"Yugoslav-American electircal scientist " [41]
"The fact is that all Yugoslavs-Serbians, Slavonians, Bosnians, Herzegovinians, Dalmations, Montenagrins, Croatians ans Slovenes - are of the same race, speak the same language and have common national ideals and traditions." from Tribute to King Alexander, an article Nikola Tesla had written and sent to New York Times (Nikola Tesla, New York, Oct. 19, 1934)

(7) Romanian

"Nikola (Nicolae) Tesla, famous Romanian scientist"
The article I mentioned in the beginning of this thread mentions the book by Valentin Ovidiu Vâzdoagă "Extraterestrul Român" here is the cover of that book. This article brings the quote from that book mentioned earlier. Apparently the claims of Tesla's Bulgarian origins are often, according to Tesla museum director. I unfortunately can't read Romanian to find more sources but I think that this book is enough to represent the claim by the director of Tesla museum.

89.164.181.8 (talk) 22:47, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

So far, all sources have one think in common. None of them provide a single reference to a primary source. The only exception is the group of sources that say "Yugoslav" which have a basis in this article written by Tesla.

89.164.181.8 (talk) 22:47, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

  • Stop cherrypicking. Stop confusing and blowing things out of proportion. Use common sense. Read the existing 100 archive pages. Take a deep breath. Go to sleep.--Zoupan 23:18, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
If you are familiar or somewhat familiar with the previous 100 archive pages you can contribute to this discussion more than this. For instance we have a quote which is supposedly coming from Tesla where he states he is a Serb, yet no source to that quote and no source which would contribute that statement to Tesla. Maybe the source is already mentioned in the previous discussions. Your help would be appreciated. I'm spending enormous quantity of time and you must understand that it is sometimes frustrating when all I get in return to countless arguments and sources an answer like this. How can this be cherry picking? Please explain. One could argue that the sources mentioned in the article are cherry picked. 89.164.181.8 (talk) 23:59, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Interesting Croatian article which is relevant to question number 2 in this RfC, source [42]. I'll bring just some interesting quotes:

"Scandal on the biggest exposition about Tesla, 'why is Croatia nowhere to be mentioned'"
"It was written that he was born in Smiljan, Serbian village in Austro-Hungarian empire."
"Biggest exposition on Nikola Tesla is in Madrid and in this part of Europe it has yielded the debate about "who does Tesla belong to"."
"The exposition is organized by Belgrade Tesla Museum, Telefonica [Spanish company] and Serbian embassy as sponsor".
"Croatian national tourist board had warned Croatian embassy which had contacted organizers"
"The text was changed to: North-American inventor, of Serbian origins, Nikola Telsa (Smiljan, zone with Serbian majority in today's Croatia). That info is also not correct. Not today, not in Tesla time".
"Adviser in Croatian embassy had said: "that the organizers had not mentioned Tesla's connections to Croatia".

Ok, that would be enough. The second question this RfC is asking, is Tesla's ethnicity disputed? This article from 2015 should help to better understand what has been happening in Croatia and Serbia. On one side we have Serbian embassy and Tesla Museum in Belgrade and on the other side Croatian Tourist Board and Croatian embassy publicly disputing. 89.164.181.8 (talk) 23:34, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

The Director of the Tesla Museum didn't claim that Tesla was Romanian, nor did the book, according to the article. Instead there were quotes by people who said a lot of ethnic Romanians settled in Lika. It is a breakdown in logic to assume that each person who lived there was Romanian, or that Tesla was. References to Tesla as an Austrian, Hungarian or Yugoslavian or Yugoslav-American scientist clearly related to the historic periods of the Austria-Hungary Empire and later to Yugoslavia, which no longer exist politically; thus, we can drop those larger empire classifications, when the facts of his ethnicity and birthplace are known. Given the wild variety of cites here, and some that appear to be unreliable sources, or sources not accurately read by editors, perhaps editors should try to agree on what are acceptable secondary sources for this article. Let's get back to the Wikipedia rules, which require published secondary sources, not primary sources. Let's limit acceptable sources to books published by academic presses, which are peer-reviewed and subject to more rigor on fact checking. Just forget all the recent shallow media attempts from different places to claim him. And since this is the English Wikipedia, perhaps it is time for editors to rely on RS in English. At least it's a way to narrow the universe for this article. I am satisfied by the sources that support Tesla was an ethnic Serb born in Croatia who received much of his early education there and in Austria, as already stated in the article; also, he had higher education in Austria and audited classes in Czechoslovakia, and worked in Hungary and France before he emigrated to the US. Parkwells (talk) 23:47, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
You are completely right, he had said that the theories of Tesla's Romanian ethnicity are often. He of course disagrees with them. 89.164.181.8 (talk) 00:07, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

I've asked another experienced editor, LjL ,about his opinion on the 3rd question raised by this RfC. Here is his opinion. I hope that more people with tackle with that question. So far I'm not getting the response I had hoped. No one but me had posted a single source, nor provided the right answers to the raised questions. It would also be of help if you could put a source or an argument to your opinion. I don't think "use common logic", with no source is a good argument we can use to properly deal with this complex question. 89.164.181.8 (talk) 00:28, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

IP editor

I am sure a lot of you have noticed that the numerous IPs on this page are mostly the same guy. To be clear this is the banned user User:Asdisis. They were banned from Wikipedia for pretty much exactly what they are doing here. They are essentially trying to win by wearing down the community despite the consensus against their ideas. If any user in good standing wishes to take on these argument themselves they are welcome to, but the banned user can be safely ignored. HighInBC 00:51, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Is there any way to make the IPs stop? A universal block? 23 editor (talk) 23:01, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
I have semi-protected this page for two weeks. They have an apparently unlimited supply of IPs over several ranges so semi-protection is about all we can do. I have a list of pages I know they like to edit and I am spotting them. If they are too hard on any particular page I will semi-protect it too, otherwise it is just a game of whack-a-mole. If you want to see what other pages they are bothering click on the various IPs they have used here and see the contributions, they mostly hang out in the same areas. HighInBC 23:05, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Sounds like a decent plan. Let's hope it holds. 23 editor (talk) 00:51, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
This has ben going on for years now. His obsession in defending Croatian far-right views over Tesla is neverending. FkpCascais (talk) 00:07, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
I assume that Special:Contributions/2A03:4A80:2:2D6:B93C:A8E4:EA8A:988E is the same person. Their attempts to add a non-existent RfC to the RfC listings were quickly thwarted by Legobot (talk · contribs), which ignores current content of those pages and instead reconstructs them based on valid RfCs that are still open on discussion pages like this one. --Redrose64 (talk) 11:13, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
See also 2A03:4A80:7:441:E0B0:584:788B:83CB (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) --RexxS (talk) 12:43, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Competence is required? Why is the IPs not blocked? He posts lengthy OR on user talk pages and threads on ANI.--Zoupan 00:59, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

5 IPs in two days?--Zoupan 00:59, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

See this closed ANI, User_talk:Oshwah#Nikola_Tesla_sources, and this talk section. - DVdm (talk) 09:12, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
@Zoupan: the reason not every IP is blocked is that they change IPs 2-4 times a day if blocked. It is best to revert and ignore, and if needed on a particular page semi-protection. Another useful thing is to click on the contribs on these IPs and add the other pages they are harassing to your watchlist. HighInBC 13:50, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

"Tesla was not born in Croatia"

There are thousands of comments which contain claims like:

1. "Tesla wasn't born in Croatia, because it didn't exist at that time, it was part of Austria-Hungary"

He was born in Croatia because Croatia was recognized part of Austria-Hungary, and thousand years ago, Lika was in the middle of the Kingdom of Croatia. If Tesla was not born in Croatia, then Vuk Karadžić isn't Serb, because Serbia was some unknown region of the Ottoman Empire.

2. "Tesla was born in Vojna Krajina"

Yes, he was. Vojna Krajina was artificially created region of Croatia with purpose to defend rest of the Croatia and whole Europe from Ottomans. If you believe that Vojna Krajina wasn't part of Croatia, then Vojvodina and Sandžak aren't parts of Serbia and all people who were born there aren't Serbs.

3. "Tesla was Vlach"

That part of Croatia (Vojna Krajina) was truly populated with Vlachs, but there is no real proof that he was Vlach or he ever mentioned Vlachs. --Sheldonium (talk) 21:07, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Tesla's quotes about his ethnicity

Nikola Tesla was a Croatian-American with Serbian origins. He was born and educated in by Austria-Hungary occupied Croatia-Slavonia and he identified himself as Serb and Croat! You should also know his quote: Drago mi je što me i Hrvati smatraju svojim jer su moji preci hrvatski koljenovići Draganići iz Zadra. Kao hrvatski plemići u 16. stoljeću došli su u Liku i tu ostali. U Liku su moji prepreci došli preko Novog Vinodola. Preci moje majke, Kalinići, također su hrvatski plemići iz Novog Vinodola. Moj pradjed stjecajem okolnosti morao je otići u Bosansku krajinu (turska Hrvatska) i tamo se oženio pravoslavnom djevojkom i prešao na pravoslavlje. On je imao isturene prednje zube pa ga je narod prozvao Tesla prema alatki kojom se obrađuje drvo i otud i moje sadašnje prezime Tesla. To je zapravo nadimak. Moj djed je bio časnik u ličkoj regimenti, a moj otac pravoslavni prota! MateoKatanaCRO (talk) 17:35, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

(Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla per 16 June 2015 RfC)
Dear Mr. Chetvorno, I saw that you deleted my editing about Tesla beeing a Croatian-American with Serbian origins, and the photo of the Nikola Tesla Technical Museum in Zagreb. Would you please check the sources (quotes and links about him saying beeing a Croat and Serb) and the book about Croatian-Americans I linked before deleting it just because it has already been very, VERY thoroughly discussed? Greetings MateoKatanaCRO (talk) 19:15, 16 February 2017 (CET)
I looked at your sources, and although I don't read Croatian they look like the same old documents that have already been discussed on this page many, many times. Briefly: (1) Tesla's statements on his nationality are not WP:reliable sources; many people self-identify with nationalities which are different from their legal nationality, (2) Documents like school records or drivers licenses are not WP:RSs because they are WP:primary sources which must be backed up by secondary sources (WP:PSTS), and because the nationality listed on local documents is not necessarily the nationality of the person's birth, and may be out of date or not in accord with legal political divisions, (3) Biographies of Tesla can be partisan, but the impartial ones generally support the existing wording (4) The only uncontroversial data is where his place of birth was with respect to internationally recognized borders on the date of his birth. Smiljan was in the Austrian Empire in a region called the Military Frontier; the Kingdom of Croatia did not exist at the time.
You can try to argue about it here, but it's been argued continuously for the last 8 years (see the 9 Archives listed at top), and editors are pretty tired of the subject. The current wording is the result of an exhaustive 2014 [RfC] and has the support of consensus. --ChetvornoTALK 20:19, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

"Austrian citizen"

Apparently, in spite of all the "nationality disputes" surrounding Tesla, nobody has ever bothered to check this, or provide a reference. It turns out that "Austrian citizenship" was introduced only in 1867, and only for natives of Cisleithania. Croatia falls into Transleithania, and the 1867 compromise introduced Hungarian citizenship for all natives of Transleithania. It follows that Tesla, based on the place of his birth, would have been granted automatic Hungarian citizenship in 1867. It is conceivable, I suppose, that he applied for or received Austrian citizenship at some later date, e.g. while studying in Graz, but this would need to be referenced. It is absolutely certain that he was not an "Austrian citizen" from 1856, because there was no such thing as "Austrian citizenship" in 1856. Before 1867, "citizenship" is a misleading term anyway, as there was no universal suffrage anyway (introduced in 1906 for men and in 1918 for women). Tesla would not have been a "Croatian citizen" either, he would just have held Heimatrecht (right of residence) in Smiljan municipality, as "right of residence" in the law of 1812 was regulated on the municipal level. --dab (𒁳) 09:46, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Actually, it is possible that the Croatian–Hungarian Settlement of 1868 might have introduced Croatian citizenship in the following year. Somebody will have to check this. Tesla would have held "general Hungarian citizenship" (allgemeines Ungarisches Bürgerrecht) under the 1867 compromise, but the Hungarian authorities may or may not have recognized a separate Croatian citizenship in 1868. These are the complications of Empire, and it is impossible to just second-guess this stuff, we have to do the relevant research and cite proper references. --dab (𒁳) 09:57, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
dab (𒁳), but yes, we bothered to check this entirely, however then it was a very long and complicated issue including also other distractions. I am best qualified regarding Hungarian citizenship issues, however we did not find anything about his possible citizenship, as also - involving Croatians - we were unable to decide if Croatian citizenship would have been introduced/recognized. His Austrian citizenship was not debated, since in this he resigned on this on 1891.
Further additions to your deduction and the issue:
- Hungarian citizenship existed also before 1867
- Austro-Hungarian citizenship never existed, or Austrian and Hungarian dual citizenship was banned (thus in case Tesla would acquire Austrian he had to loose the Hungarian)
- The things are complicated by the issue of Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia, or Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia (it was then discussed regarding - if I recall properly - his school papers, there was something different but never confronted viewpoint of the latter's status between Hungary and Austria that would complicate even more any possible citizenship question)
- According to this source - that I've met much later - [43]:
"Law L 1879 declared ‘citizenship (állampolgárság) to be one and the same in all the Lands of the Hungarian Crown’ (§1)."
- By this information, between 1867-1879 is not evident he would have been automatically a Hungarian citizen, moroever, if he acquired Austrian earlier, then also from 1879 'till 1891 he could not have been a Hungarian citizen.
- Final conclusion: The cutting edge is WHEN he acquired Austrian, that he resigned on 1891. If after 1879, then may be a chance to have Hungarian citizenship for a while.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:15, 11 May 2017 (UTC))
My question would be, if there really has been "seven years of wrangling" on this issue, why is the article completely devoid of any references on this topic, and giving "Austrian" citizenship simply as if it were a straightforward, self-evident truth not worthy of being referenced? Even to the point where there needed to be an RfC and the topic had to be exiled to this special page? It's almost as if some people enjoy revert-warring and name-calling more than doing the gritty work of researching stuff.
"Hungarian citizenship existed also before 1867"{{cn}} (in what form? was it called "citizenship", or "Heimatrecht", or what? and what did it entail?
"According to this source - that I've met much later - [44]: 'Law L 1879 declared ‘citizenship (állampolgárság) to be one and the same in all the Lands of the Hungarian Crown’ (§1).'" -- well done, this establishes that Tesla's citieznship (állampolgárság) would have been "Hungarian" after 1879 at least, because he was a native of the Hungarian Crown lands.
"By this information, between 1867-1879 is not evident he would have been automatically a Hungarian citizen" -- true. But de-wiki claims that the 1867 compromise established Hungarian citizenship for all natives of the Hungarian Crown lands immediately. The reference cited is: Dieter Gosewinkel: Einbürgern und Ausschließen. Die Nationalisierung der Staatsangehörigkeit vom Deutschen Bund bis zur Bundesrepublik Deutschland. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, Göttingen 2001, ISBN 3-525-35165-8, S. 40. I did not check this reference, but at least it's a credible claim based on a properly cited, relevant publication.
The hypothetical "But Tesla might have applied for Austrian citizenship" is neither here nor there. The article simply said "Austrian", with no reference, because people assumed, since he was a native of the "Austrian Empire" he would have held "Austrian" citizenship. They did not care about the history of Austrian nationality law, they just wanted to avoid the mention of "Croatia" as much as possible. This is no way to write articles. Tesla was a native of the "Kingdom of Croatia" within the Transleithanian part of the Austrian Empire. Not "modern Croatia". What they mean is that the territory of the "Kingdom of Croatia" is now that of the "Republic of Croatia", not that Tesla was born "in modern-day Croatia". Yes he was an ethnic Serb. Nobody is disputing this, guys. We are talking about nationality law and citizenship. We have an article on the historical territory he was native to, Kingdom of Croatia (Habsburg). But apparently we cannot link to it and have to use the much more vague "Austrian Empire" because the page name contains the string "Croatia". This is unreasonable. --dab (𒁳) 07:08, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
- dab (𒁳), I was just one drop in the turmoil then, franky it started when I introduced the initiative to remove from the infobox the "1867-1891 Austria-Hungary" citizenship, since such never existed. After others started to debate on ethnicity, status of the birthplace, nationality, combined with again the citizenship issue. So please put these questions to these who finally agreed to the state that you met, I did everything according to my best knowledge, due to lack or uncertain information, I think they chose what is sure and can be verified, that he resigned on the allegiance to Austria by the acquisiton of the U.S. citizenship, leaving open the question until further clarificaion.
- Well it was "állampolgárság" in Hungarian, for that the prefect translation is citizenship. I.e. you may have an "útlevél" = passport, and the "illetőségi hely" (cca. "place of belonging")
- Only in that case, if he did not opt earlier for Austrian.
- Well, but do not forget the twofold interpretation of the Holy Crown and her Lands, Croatia is not necessarily regarded as part of Hungary, in fact as a separate country in personal union with Hungary. "Lands of the Hungarian Crown" were/are also nominally/naturally considered to those Lands that are/were integral part of Hungary. So it is very likely to be that in 1879 they wanted to make everything certain and make a clear situation and eliminate the only possible ambigous interpretation in question, Croatia. However László Péter's works (as well Hungary's Long Ninetheen Century, etc.) are very high quality and professional sources including with plenty of speicifc details regarding Hungary that foreign authors are not necessarily aware of.
- As I recall, they arranged it like "Austrian - prior to 1891" that is true and sourced, however I understand your problem that the roots of acqusition are unclear and unverified, but it does not mean that fact he had Austrian for a while and before directly opting to the U.S. should have been eliminated. Btw., the Hungarian wiki appoints Tesla's birtplace as Kingdom of Hungary (not because of any national or citizenship claim), just because Croatia was in personal union with Hungary also when Hungary had a King from the Habsburg house or during the times of the Austrian Empire it was also true, but Croatia was controlled from Vienna directly, unlike Hungary that was Regnum Independens, a separate country, etc. Yes, that debate became better a Serbian-Croatian clash, however, as I referred, the status was very complicated if we include the Military Frontier or the Triune Kingdom question so it is a real clear legal challenge. The ethnicity was then, and for sure will be debated not necessarily including just Serbians or Croatians. However, regarding your ending pharagraph, the status of Croatia section I support precisity, introduce this.(KIENGIR (talk) 22:04, 12 May 2017 (UTC))

1867 nationality law in the Austrian empire

[45] see here. --dab (𒁳) 06:56, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

--dab (𒁳), check this revision, this was the result of the earlier citizenship issue, during our discussion I did not notice that it was "simplified": [46]
As you see, it was sourced information, so the current state of the infobox based on "would have been considered" deductions are not reliable, having in consideration also our discussion.(KIENGIR (talk) 22:25, 12 May 2017 (UTC))
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