Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity/Archive 14

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RfC: Should ethnicity be removed from the lead?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should the introduction in the lead be changed from "Serbian-American" to "American", in accordance to MOS:ETHNICITY? Tezwoo (talk) 01:14, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Note to closing editor: comments by IPs from the 89.201... range are User:Asdisis evading their block and should be ignored. I have struck their !vote, but there's too many comments so just exercise caution. Thanks, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:16, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

• Yes. The country of which Tesla was a citizen was the US. According to the guidelines on MOS:ETHNICITY: "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable."

"Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability."

Tesla's ethnicity (Serbian-American) or his previous nationality (Austrian) is not relevant for Tesla's notability. The discussions on this separate talk page were mostly around his birthplace and citizenship, which is a different topic. Tezwoo (talk) 01:17, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

• Yes, omit the nationality/ethnicity from the lead so that it can be discussed as a minor issue in the article. That fact that different ethnicities like to claim him is relevant, but not so important as to mess up the lead. Dicklyon (talk) 01:17, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
• Yes He was American citizen, earlier Austro-Hungarian citizen. These are facts from the time of Nikola Tesla's life and I think that this should be respected. I exposed twenty reliable sources which speak of him as "Croatian-American" scientist but it did not pass because Wikipedia has its own rules which I as an editor must respect. The same case must be and for "Serbian-American" case. Mikola22 (talk) 10:29, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@Mikola22:, FYI, Austro-Hungarian citizenship never existed in world history, it is a common misbelief mostly rendered by Anglo-Saxon sources. Such issues generally (= continous corrections in WP) and locally about Nikola Tesla has been thoroughly discussed multiple times, more years ago. Current state, Austrian citizenship has been confirmed earlier then American (the details you may read in the archives).(KIENGIR (talk) 01:34, 4 June 2020 (UTC))

Yes, he was Austrian but also some others who came with him to America at that time and from the same area were Hungarians and a smaller part was mentioned as Croats by citizenship. Austro-Hungarian citizenship I mentioned from the wikipedia point of view and political state which existed at that time. Mikola22 (talk) 04:37, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

WP does not have such POV like Austro-Hungarian citizenship, indeed it was a Monarchy of two states, but I understand your point, better avoid to render false wordage of even contemporary American terminilogy, especially the word citizenship, since even in the official papers regarding what allegiance the subject had to resign such did not exist.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:23, 5 June 2020 (UTC))

• No This was discussed at length, it's going in circles again and again. Accept the current version as community consensus and carry on. Serbian-American is not only ethnicity, but his ethnic and national identity - 2in1. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 13:58, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I will just point out that you are at this very present time have diametrically opposite stand in this discussion on the very same matter [1], so if you care to explain. 89.201.200.208 (talk) 14:37, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

• No Not only is it a consensus, but most reliable sources refer to him as "Serbian-American" inventor. Some of them are listed in the sections above. Acamicamacaraca (talk) 14:08, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
• No Agreed with Acamicamacaraca and Sadkσ, most sources refer Tesla as Serbian-American, if not even just Serbian, inventor. Tesla himself stated that he is proud of his Serbian origin. — Vukan C (talk) 14:36, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
• No To reopen the same discussion where consesus was reached in 2015. and 2018. makes no sense,also Tesla's resting place is in Belgrade,Serbia —  unsigned comment added by Theonewithreason (talk) 3 June 2020 (UTC)
• No sources refer Tesla as Serbian-American, agreed with Vukan C. --MareBG (talk) 14:44, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
• No Let us not forget that Tesla has emphasized his Serb origin on multiple occasions, and the fact that Tesla was a fierce Serb patriot, which can be found in this article or the version in Serbian if you prefer, with reliable sources to back it. That alone is enough to be an exception of MOS:ETHNICITY. I do not think that whoever started the RFC had anything of that in mind. Why would you ignore it? Judging from the Archive, I can see that other editors had many debates over this several times.--Soundwaweserb (talk) 16:16, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
• Comment for the team which came behind the editor @Sadko. At least 20 sources speak about Nikola Tesla as Croatian-American.[2] However this is wikipedia and we need to consider the time of his living. Since he can't be Croatian-American the only possibility is what he was then at the time and that is an American citizen and an American scientist. Mikola22 (talk) 17:31, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

So what? We have tens of sources saying that he is 1) Serbian 2) Serb 3) Serbian-American. A quick search will provide you with such results.

Why are you pinging me? Make sure to give a GOOD explanation, as it might reflect poorly on you and the whole RfC. Prior disagreements with me are not an argument. There are numerous editors (both active and passive) from my old country on Wikipedia, I do not see you pinging them, which seems like singling out and trying to present whatever you have in your mind about me (not interested to know) as something real, and not just fantasy. We have discussed this sort of indirect bullying/behaviour before. FYI, I have no time to write on numerous web portals/forums (like forum.hr, for example) or to respond to lengthy posts, messages and what have you, as I have very real ongoing projects. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 18:11, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I am not pinging you, I give an answer to the team that came after you. What did you think I called you for something? What has some forum etc got to do with this Rfc? Focus on this Rfc and try to draw conclusions in accordance with the rules of wikipedia. If someone lives and creates in America, then I guess he is primarily an American scientist, how can he be Serbian scientist? Maybe because this Rfc is used for some other purpose? If 20 sources say he is Croatian-American scientist I could have promoted this fact from 20 RS while I did not know the rules of wikipedia, you know the rules of wikipedia and you are here for 10 years. Tesla may be of Serbian origin, but what does that have to do with his career in America. He did not create in Serbia. Mikola22 (talk) 20:04, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

 

• Comment on canvasing. - The closing editor should take into account the potential canvasing of users from another Wikipedia for the NO votes. A RfC is not a majority vote, and the outcome should follow the strength of arguments and Wikipedia's guidelines, and not the mere count of YES vs NO votes. Or else a dozen SP accounts could push whatever they want through a RfC. Tezwoo (talk) 16:34, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
• No Tesla's ethnicity is a point of contention among Serbs and Croats who both consider him theirs. Regardless, the fact that Tesla was an ethnic Serb is something that has been established. The cultural ties between Tesla and Serbia are extensive and significant. Given all of this, the subject's ethnicity is certainly relevant to his notability. Removing ethnicity from the lead would open up a whole new can of worms in the Tesla Serbian/Croatian debate on this page. I see no reason to remove the long standing description of "Serbian-American" that was reached by consensus. --Griboski (talk) 19:26, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
• Comment Before assuming canvassing, it's important to note that the subject invokes a lot of passion from both sides. The page has a lot of watchers and activity. Users with interests in Balkan-related topics can be alerted to this RfC on their own through various means. --Griboski (talk) 19:26, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
• No - Sources clearly refer to Tesla's nationality - Serbian-American. Re: the exact MOS being cited here "country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable" Tesla was notable, and conceived his most notable invention - the Induction motor - before he became an American, the problem here is there was no country, Tesla's homeland changed hands several time during his lifetime and after his death. So we get booted back to sources that he was Serbian, then American. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 20:56, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

The guideline you yourself linked here goes against the stand you took on the matter. Tesla was Austrian citizen, national and permanent resident until 1891, afterwards 1891 until his death, American citizen, national and permanent resident. Tesla was not in any point in time Serbian citizen, nor national nor permanent resident. I don't know who booted back, but this is simply incorrect. 89.201.159.82 (talk) 01:16, 5 June 2020 (UTC) 89.201.159.82 (talk) 01:12, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Fountains of Bryn Mawr: you are being highly misleading. Firstly, "Serbian-American" is not a nationality. Secondly, Tesla was never of Serbian nationality, as you yourself implicitly confirm in your comment, nor did he have anything to do with Serbia (he was not born even near Serbia, if that is what you are implying?). Notrium (talk) 13:58, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

• Yes Ethnicity in the lead should be used when it's notable to the person. As it can be seen from the body of the article, apart from mentioning his Serbian ethnicity, nothing notable attributed to his ethnicity can be found. Furthermore, Tesla was born in Croatia within Austrian Empire and has little connection to Serbia. 89.201.213.254 (talk) 21:13, 3 June 2020 (UTC)— 89.201.213.254 (talk • contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of Asdisis (talk • contribs).
• Comment Maybe all those editors who are stating that ethnicity should be in the lead should direct their arguments towards notability instead of pointing to other pointless previous discussion or Tesla's own statements. As starters, if he was notable for his Serbian ethnicity, why is there no mention of this in the body of the article? 89.201.213.254 (talk) 21:28, 3 June 2020 (UTC)— 89.201.213.254 (talk • contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of Asdisis (talk • contribs).
• Comment Leave Tesla alone ffs! Mhare (talk) 21:38, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose - Do we really need back to this year after year? WP:LETITGO Most of English-language sources describe Nikola Tesla as Serbian-American, including media, books, relevant encyclopedias... This is the most important argument. Adoption of this proposal would violate WP:COMMONSENSE, WP:NOR, WP:UNDUE and many other policies. Does such an introduction violates MOS:ETHNICITY? We can't be sure. We can't know whether all these sources talked about nationality or ethnicity. It is really true that Tesla's homeland changed hands several time during his lifetime and after his death. It is widely known that his nationality is described as Serbian-American.--WEBDuB (talk) 21:57, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@WEBDuB: it is disrespectful of other Wikipedia editors to come here and "strongly oppose" something when you failed to check out the most basic facts regarding the issue at hand: Serbia never encompassed any of the places of Tesla's life or birth. And, remember, your goal is to show that we need to disregard MOS:ETHNICITY. Notrium (talk) 18:40, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@WEBDuB: also, regarding your "Do we really need back to this year after year?" comment, please provide a link to a previous discussion on the same subject, it very well might be relevant if it indeed exists. Notrium (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

• No - The existing wording is supported by sources. Ethnicity should not be in the lead "...unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." (WP:ETHNICITY) Both Serbia and Croatia claim Tesla as a national hero, and there is a notable cultural battle going on between these countries in the EU over Tesla's ethnicity. [3], [4], [5], [6] The 13 years of continuous argument on these pages show our readers think this subject is important enough that his Serbian-American background should be in the introduction. WP:LETITGO --Chetvorno^TALK 05:16, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

If Tesla's ethnicity is notable because of the cultural battle and 13 years of discussions, then on that argument it cannot be included as merely "Serbian" without mentioning the dispute and both sides on the matter. 89.201.159.82 (talk) 23:34, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

No, a local battle by small groups of Serbian and Croation nationalists to "claim" Tesla's ethnicity for political reasons, notable or not, does not affect his actual ethnicity as determined by reliable sources. Giving people's opinions equal weight with reputable scholarly research is called WP:false balance and is WP:undue weight. --Chetvorno^TALK 17:57, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

They are talking about nationality not ethnicity. Serbian is a nationality, Serb is an ethnicity. Appears to be a constant mistake made by editors on here. 100.37.8.217 (talk) 04:44, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Your stand was that Tesla's ethnicity is notable to be mentioned in the lead because it is disputed in "a notable cultural battle". Now you claim that this dispute is "a local battle by small groups". It's obvious that you lost the ground on which you based your stand in this RfC since you claimed that Tesla's ethnicity is notable to be mentioned in the lead because of this big dispute. BDW, a dispute that some are having about Tesla's ethnicity decades after his death can't make Tesla himself notable for it. So your stand is flawed in 2 ways. I hope the closing admin will not simply count votes.89.201.185.251 (talk) 10:45, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@Chetvorno:, the only one of your four sources (some are dead for me) that seems to support your claim of "notable cultural battle going on between these countries in the EU over Tesla's ethnicity" is "total croatia news" and that is not a reliable source. Regardless, that claim has no relevance to the matter at stake as it (1) does not imply that Tesla's notability stems from his ethnicity and (2) does not imply we need to mention ethnicity in the lead. Notrium (talk) 17:46, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

• Yes He was only in Serbia for 3 days in a hotel in his life. And what does he have to do with Serbia, except that he is a ethnic Serb? Here is a Croatian passport from Nikola Tesla and Telegram from Vladko Maček to Nikola Tesla in which it says:(Translation) Congratulations to the great son of the Serbian people the homeland of Croatia leaders of humanity in the fight against nature Congratulations on behalf of the Croatian people. And Nikola Tesla answers Telegram Nikole Tesle from USA to Vladko Maček in which it says: (Translation) Thank you very much for the esteemed congratulations and honors, I am equally proud of my Serbian family and my Croatian homeland, long live all Yugoslavs. Nikola Tesla —  unsigned comment added by 93.138.181.183 (talk)

Please, sign your comments. There was no such thing as a Croatian passport, it was part of Austro-Hungary inhabited by Serbs (the territory is partly in modern-day Serbia). It’s not just a matter of ethnicity. Tesla's homeland was today non-existent countries Austro-Hungary and Yugoslavia, but his legacy and notability are linked to Serbia. At least according to most sources.--WEBDuB (talk) 08:41, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Military Frontier when created in the 16th century by Ferdinand I, the region was divided into two districts under special military administration: the Croatian Military Frontier and the Slavonian Military Frontier.—  unsigned comment added by 93.138.181.183 (talk)

First: WP:APR and maybe WP:NPA. Again, sign your comments. Then, Tesla is also notable of inventions from the period before he became an American citizen. Former Military Frontier was the territory inhabited by Serbs. Even the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia, especially Austro-Hungary (not to mention Yugoslavia), included parts of today's territory of Serbia. Most importantly, this is not a forum, most sourced linked his legacy and notability to Serbia.--WEBDuB (talk) 09:11, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't want to argue with someone who doesn't know the history of Military Frontier region which is was divided into two districts under special military administration: the Croatian Military Frontier and the Slavonian Military Frontier which was part of Kingdom of Croatia (Habsburg), and it is not only inhabited by Serbs but also by other peoples besides Croats and Serbs. You must learn history and that Nikola Tesla was born in Kingdom of Croatia (Habsburg) which was the part Austrian Empire between 1804 and 1867. Someone should put in the article that he was born in Kingdom of Croatia (Habsburg) Austrian Empire.—  unsigned comment added by 93.138.181.183 (talk)

Well all of this was already disscussed in the last 11 years and all this sources you presented were already presented earlier and many more and heavily discussed over so your attempt to reinvente a "hot water" makes no sense, my suggestion to you is to read all 11 archives that are standing in the top right corner, be polite to editors since most of them who were discussing here contributed to wikipedia and know their history and lastly stick to the topic of Rfc because what you are suggesting is not a subject of discussion now — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.9.135 (talk) 10:32, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

You're right is not a topic, but so it should be correct Kingdom of Croatia (Habsburg), Austrian Empire — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.181.183 (talk) 10:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Tesla's birthplace is not the topic, but here's a source for you. "At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina.". 89.201.159.82 (talk) 23:02, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that this RfC is not about changing Tesla's place of birth. Our description of Tesla's place of birth (Austrian Empire, modern day Croatia) was decided by an RfC 5 July 2014 and reaffirmed overwhelmingly by another RfC 12 December 2018. --Chetvorno^TALK 00:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Perfectly correct. Tesla's birthplace is indeed Austrian Empire, modern day Croatia which was, at that time, "the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina" . If I remember correctly the last RfC, you had cherry picked the first sentence, advocating to omit the following one, then claimed something totally opposite to what the second sentence says. But let's not get out of the bounds of this RfC. 89.201.159.82 (talk) 00:17, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks, 2.Stick to the Rfc 3. Don't post the same source over and over again which doesn't have anything in common with Rfc,the concesus over your subject has already been reached in 2014.(talk)

• Comment Albert Einstein was a German-born theoretical physicis and Nikola Tesla was a Serbian-American inventor, electrical engineer, mechanical engineer. It can be seen that something is wrong here. If Albert Einstein is part of Germany, Switzerland and United States then this is the most correct introduction for wikipedia article. Nikola Tesla saw Serbia once or twice, he was born in Croatia at the time Austria-Hungary. Then he move to Austria and then he went to America in which he created everything. His origin facts must be stated somewhere below in the article and this formulation(Serbian-American) is just a show for the public. Under normal circumstances and with 100 editors unrelated to the Balkans, I estimate that 70% of them would be for this proposal. There is no doubt about it. Mikola22 (talk) 14:34, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Why do you think that? That would violate Wikipedia's core content policies, as well as WP:COMMONSENSE. All you have stated is your point of view and personal interpretation. I was trying to explain why the sources linked Tesla's heritage with Serbia, but honestly, that is not relevant either because that is my interpretation. Most of reliable sources describe Nikola Tesla as Serbian-American, including media, books, journal articles, encyclopedias... It's very simple and clear. It's also very questionable whether the current introduction violates MOS:ETHNICITY. I think this seems like a WP:IDONTLIKEIT stance. It is really superfluous for editors to engage in such discussions for more than 10 years. I'm not generally a fan of the status quo, but there are many more significant parts from Tesla's biography and legacy. There has been a consensus around this part for a long time, but there are still unsuccessful attempts over and over again. WP:WORLDSEND, WP:STICK.--WEBDuB (talk) 16:22, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't know if you read what I wrote earlier? I wrote that I have at least 20 sources(RS) which speak of Tesla as a Croatian-American scientist. This is not an encyclopedia this is wikipedia. The Croatian encyclopedia has its own conclusion but here we need reliable sources but also and historical context in which Nikola Tesla lives and creates. I guess we learned something about how wikipedia works. When you are so sure of a consensus, then let's leave the voting to those editors who have nothing to do with the Balkans. Mikola22 (talk) 16:54, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment What about Leopold Ruzicka ? Croatian-Swiss scientist eventhough in his biography states that he had Austro-Hungarian and Swiss citizenship. And he was notable when he had a Swiss citizenship (1917-1976. won Nobel in 1939.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Ružička . Every biography on wikipedia is written in different way so like the most of editors here ,I think that earlier reached concesus should be respected — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.9.135 (talk) 15:49, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

He was born in Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia which was an acknowledged kingdom in the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. Where as Tesla was not Born in Serbia or a citizen there. Later on the territory would be part of SF Croatia in the country of Yugoslavia. He was born on the Croatian Military Frontier in AH. So not a good parallel comparison. I disagree with the “Croatian-American” denotation as CMF was not part of Kingdom of Croatia at the time or a Croatian nation, unless I am mistaken. The term “Serbian-American” should remain. Though weird as Serb denotes ethnicity not the term Serbian. Would be more accurate to say American Serb. However his ethnicity is important as he was an extremely significant Serb Inventor, one of the most famous Serbs in history let alone one of the most famous and important figures in scientific history. OyMosby (talk) 17:19, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Well I was trying to drew comparison since the question in the Rfc was connected with notability phase of life (notable phase in Ruzicka"s life was as Swiss citizen) but I do agree that Ruzicka is Croatian -Swiss scientist as it is written in the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.9.135 (talk) 18:24, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Military frontier was a part of Croatia at the time Tesla was born there and even Tesla's biographies are covering this:"At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina.". There are other historical sources posted in previous discussions. 89.201.159.82 (talk) 23:07, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that this RfC is not about changing Tesla's place of birth. Our wording of Tesla's place of birth - Austrian Empire (modern day Croatia) - was decided by an RfC 5 July 2014 and reaffirmed overwhelmingly by another RfC 12 December 2018. --Chetvorno^TALK 00:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I know it isn't but I saw that the user above was not familiar with the status of Croatia at the time Tesla was born so I provided one of the sources from previous discussions. 89.201.159.82 (talk) 00:28, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• No As I explained above. It should remain Serbian-American. Though American Serb would be more accurate as he was an ethnic Serb and not a citizen of Serbia the country, he was Born in the Croatian Military Frontier in Austria-Hungary (Croatian Military Frontier should be mentioned in the article and infobox however). The idea of “Croatian-American” seems ridiculous to me. His ethnicity is very much notable. However his ethnicity is important as he was an extremely significant Serb Inventor, one of the most famous Serbs in history let alone one of the most famous and important figures in scientific history. OyMosby (talk) 17:30, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

How about someone actually writes one notable fact about Tesla's ethnicity in the body of the article and then makes a claim that his ethnicity is notable. 89.201.159.82 (talk) 23:12, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Many people here, whether voting no or yes, have asserted that Tesla's ethnicity is heavily disputed between Croatians and Serbians. Some even use this dispute as an argument to include Tesla's ethnicity to the lead. Interestingly they advocate against including the dispute itself to the article. If ethnicity is included in the lead or the body of the article this dispute must then be included along with ethnicity. That can solve the whole matter. Include ethnicity, but also the dispute with both sides supported by sources. 89.201.159.82 (talk) 23:25, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

His ethnicity is not disputed,even Croats claim that he was of Serbian ethnicity — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.167.101 (talk) 05:45, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Nikola Tesla is a biography, so the dispute itself doesn't belong there. But there is Nikola Tesla in popular culture. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 00:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

If Tesla's ethnicity is notable, so notable that it should be included in the lead, because of this dispute, then the dispute itself must be mentioned along with both sides and the sources. One can't go without the other 89.201.159.82 (talk) 00:41, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

89.201.159.82 No, that doesn't follow at all

• A small, petty, regional, politicized squabble between Serb and Croat ultranationalists over Tesla doesn't mean there is any actual disagreement among reliable Tesla biographers about Tesla's ethnicity. There isn't.
• The decision of how and where to state Tesla's ethnicity is unrelated to the decision of whether to mention the political squabble over nationalist claims on him. Linking the two would imply a WP:false balance between the research of impartial biographers and the opinions of small pressure groups.

--Chetvorno^TALK 12:02, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

It perfectly follows. What I see in your stand is a contradiction. On one hand you are describing the dispute as "there is a notable cultural battle" when you want to use it in your favor, while on the other hand you are describing it as a "small, petty, regional, politicized squabble" when you want to omit it from the article. 89.201.203.86 (talk) 18:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Yes per above. ~ HAL333 02:55, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
• Yes. The country of which Tesla was a citizen was the US, of course his place of birth and probably his ethnicity should be included in later sentences in the lead, but there is no good reason to deviate from standard practice and put ethnicity first. Apart from any other consideration, this is more informative since "Serbian-American" has at least three possible meanings (duel cit, US born ethnic Serb, Serbia born US citizen). Pincrete (talk) 11:15, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

He was not an US citizen all his life. There are also notable Tesla's inventions from the period before.--WEBDuB (talk) 19:02, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

He was certainly not a Serbian citizen before becoming a US one, which is one of the more obvious possible meanings of the two word description. If his origins, both in terms of nationality and ethnicity are complex, that is even better reason to both delay and not attempt to simplify to two words (which are ambiguous anyway). What is the point of using two words that you must already know both his back-story and that of the region he came from, in order to understand?Pincrete (talk) 13:17, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

• No Okay, so I can see that arguments are getting repeated over and over again. That should be noted by closing admin. Tesla's ethnicity is notable. Calling him only American or God forbid Croatian-American would not give all information to our readers, which has been explained in details by other editors. Zoranzoki21 (talk) 12:50, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

”God forbid”? As if it is so revolting for someone to be Croatian? Comes across a weird thing to say. 100.37.8.217 (talk) 04:50, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

• No As people discussed above, he is mentioned as Serbian and American in majority of the English-based and other literature. And similar was done in numerous other articles about people with similar context, for example, Croatian-Swiss Nobel prize winners Vladimir Prelog and Leopold Ružička, who were born in Bosnia and Croatia which were at the time part of Austro-Hungary, but done their work and won prizes while they were living and became citizens of Switzerland. I do not see then why here needs to be different. It can be also seen from biographies about Tesla where it was obvious that he had strong Serbian identity, and it was discussed in his own writings, interviews. Not to ignore even his the request for WWI Serb patriotic song "Tamo Daleko" for his funeral, which was song about Serb far away from home. So if it was important to him that he identified himself as Serb in America, which is taken into account in a relevant literature, I think that we are not the one who can conclude that it is not important for this article. James Jim Moriarty (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:45, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Could you post any sources where it can be seen that Tesla identified himself as a Serb. None can be seen in the article and if you could post some, I would actually agree that his ethnicity is notable. Maybe it's obvious to you, but on Wikipedia we use sources. 89.201.203.86 (talk) 19:01, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

https://symbolicthinking.net/en/blog/10-astrology/89-nikola-teslas-quotes -3. Quote when he visited Belgrade, one suggestion ,you could do a little bit of research yourself not asking others — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.167.101 (talk) 21:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I actually researched on this and couldn't find reliable primary sources so I can't confirm whether this is credible. I couldn't confirm this source as I could with Tesla's statement that he was born in Croatia. But please, thanks for posting. Others can vet as well. 89.201.203.86 (talk) 21:09, 5 June 2020 (UTC) 89.201.203.86 (talk) 21:08, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

You mean that statement where he said that he is proud of his Serbian ethnicity. Interesting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.167.101 (talk) 21:31, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes. I couldn't find any contemporary source to confirm this. I was studying contemporary newspapers to confirm this, but none I found haven't related to this quote. As I said, others can rely their opinion on this source as whether it is a support for the notability argument. In my opinion it isn't since there are no contemporary sources to confirm. 89.201.203.86 (talk) 21:55, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

To the "89.201.203.86", that way of talking about "we on Wikipedia use sources" is not constructive nor makes an impression of a good intentions you may had with that, as we unlike you all have here accounts for some years. As for the sources, I am surprised that after your research you didn't managed to find them, because it is very easy to find relevant literature about him even with his quotes. For example, here you can find them, and also is mentioned that he was even responsible for translating the poems from Serbian poets like Jovan Jovanovic Zmaj. Or in one of the well known and best biographies about Tesla, from O'Neil, Pulitzer Prize-winner and a very close friend of Tesla, in which Tesla is directly quoted for what he said: "You must think of the heroes of our national Serbian poetry. They were red-blooded men and mighty fighters. You too must fight for the glory of Serbia...". Or not to mention his own interview to the The Century Magazine 1894, in which he agreed to talk about his people (Serbs) and mentioned Jovan Jovanovic Zmaj, which you can even find online, even on Wikisource. Or even the little inserts with audio recording from his own funeral where the mentioned Serbian patriotic WWI song about Serb far away from home, is played on violin, at his request, as shown here on Croatian national television. There are even relevant sources from authors from your country, Croatia, in which you could find his quotes about being Serb. For example, there is a literature from Zlatko Skrbiš, in which author shortly examines propaganda from Croatian circles from which origins of negations of him being Serb really originated. But also, there is a transcript of the lecture he gave in Belgrade in which he said that he was a proud being Serbian, which is not online for now. There are even Tesla's letters to the mentioned (again) Jovan Jovanovic Zmaj and his mother, which can be seen in the National Library of Serbia, and some images of them I think can be even found online. Not to mention his relatives with his surname from Gospic, but not very close (which I even know in personally), which are Serbs. I gave you a glimpse. So, just do your research better, with better sources, and everything will be fine. In contrary to us, these are all serious authors or people close to Tesla. But what is sad with this topic is that numerous times I see some users do not like the fact that he was Serb, put aside the great work he has done for all of us. He was American citizen, and he was proud Serbian which was obviously important to him, so I do not see what we gain from discussions like these, when we concluded all of that long time ago. Like Leopold Ruzicka and Vladimir Prelog were Croatian-Swiss - that's it, why should we talk about if they are only Swiss, etc? Just a waste of time. Why don't we, for example, start doing more about his life and inventions? Can we start focusing how we all here can improve the article and find more from the literature about his life, his work, science? I think that this talk really needs to finish and that we should all focus more about his contributions to the world, which are big, profound and deep. As for this topic, that's it from me, so I leave the rest up to you all. James Jim Moriarty (talk) 23:04, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Yes Nikola Tesla was known Austrian scientist prior to becoming an American citizen. The article should denote him as an Austrian-American scientist. Bilseric (talk) 19:59, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
• Yes, ethnicity should be removed from the lead. There is much plain misunderstandings/disinformation here in the RfC, so will try to clarify the situation: (1) It is not disputed that Tesla was of Serb ethnicity, but none of those who vote "no" have provided a relevant reason for directly dismissing MOS:ETHNICITY so it is clear that the ethnicity should not be mentioned in the lead. (2) It is not disputed that Tesla was not of Serbian nationality, so there is no basis to calling him "Serbian", in the lead or anywhere else in the article. (3) Tesla died and lived much of his life as a United States citizen. (4) Tesla was not a scientist, the lead is already clear in that regard (engineer ≠ scientist ≠ inventor). Notrium (talk) 17:50, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm an American with no connection to, or opinion on, the Serb/Croat conflict. But I think this huge RfC, plus the 16 years of continuous debate on the subject in this Talk page, which take up most of the 11 large archives above, which in addition to nationality includes plenty of argument about his ethnicity, indicate that readers are interested in Tesla's ethnicity. So it seems to me this is a WP:COMMONSENSE case for WP:IGNOREing the MOS:ETHNICITY guideline and leaving it in the lead. --Chetvorno^TALK 19:37, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

That's not a valid argument according to Wiki policy on leads. Anyways, no one is forbidding to mention Tesla's ethnicity outside lead along with the fact that it's disputed.89.201.230.200 (talk) 20:28, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Tesla's ethnicity is not disputed by reliable sources, its pretty constantly stated. The only dispute I see is being ginned up by the usual bunch of SPA IPs and sleeper accounts that show up here. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk)

User Chetvorno is listing the dispute as an argument on notability if you haven't noticed. And that's pretty much the only attempt to answer the wiki policy on notability here. 89.201.200.144 (talk) 11:21, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm saying the dispute is notable enough to give Tesla's correct ethnicity in the lead. I completely agree with Fountains of Bryn Mawr; this RfC was proposed not to improve the article, but because politically-motivated editors want to hide Tesla's Serbian-American ethnicity down in the body of the article. --Chetvorno^TALK 13:42, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Chetvorno: Please educate yourself on the difference between ethnicity and nationality, this discussion is pointless otherwise. Also, you need argumentation for your claims. Notrium (talk) 13:52, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Quite the opposite. This whole dispute which is constantly repeating is the reason Wikipedia has the policy to keep ethnicity outside lead. You trying to push it against the policy is resulting in endless debates. 89.201.223.251 (talk) 15:56, 13 June 2020 (UTC) — 89.201.223.251 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• No, ethnicity should not be removed from the lead. as per argumentation made by Chetvorno,most of the people who voted yes didn't made an effort and read the Archives also agreed with James Jim Moriarty (if we would change Tesla's undisputed ethnicity by all relevant authors in the lead then it shoud be made for the others too). 178.9.202.230 (talk)
• Yes, it should be removed. The MOS is clear that we should not report ethnicity in the lead unless it is specifically relevant, which it is not in this case. Additionally, having it in the lead in this way is seriously misleading (perhaps deliberately on the part of some partisans): by taking a place that is usually reserved for nationality, it makes it appear that he had Serbian nationality rather than ethnicity, but this is nonsensical as Serbia was not an independent country at the time. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:43, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Serbia gain it's independece in 1878. so during most of Tesla's life Serbia was independent country 178.9.202.230 (talk) 05:10, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

That argument holds no water, because (our article says) he was studying in Graz by then, and emigrated to the US and took US citizenship in 1884. So the window in which he might have exercised Serbian citizenship is very narrow and he seems not to have done so. Again, although his Serbian ethnicity is clear enough, claiming him as a Serbian national is highly misleading. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:47, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I gave you the answer to your claim that "Serbia was not an independent country at the time" which is obviously wrong as per argumentation that it holds no water it depends from which stand of point you are looking at. From American stand citisenship is only thing that matters ,since almost all of the citizens of U.S.A. have different origin and ethnicity. From other nations stand of point (like Serbia or Israel, both of them have at least half of their population abroad) ethnicity is extremly important since the people of their nations needed to emmigrate a lot from their homelands because of reasons like war (in Serbian case conflict with Ottoman Empire etc.) 178.9.202.230 (talk) 09:41, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

"nonsensical as Serbia was not an independent country at the time" - I agree, but it's not just that, Tesla literally had nothing to do with Serbia. Many seem to assume that he had because of the "Serbian-American" attribute, but the truth is he was just a Serb. That is in fact one of the most important reasons why the "Serbian" part should be removed. Notrium (talk) 14:12, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

You just disproved yourself with that statemant. How can a Serb have nothing to do with Serbia. His ancestors were from there, as a matter of fact his father was born there. His remains are there, the most influental people from his childhood like Jovan Jovanovic Zmaj are from there it is obvious that Serbia made a influence on him. Also you agree that Serbia was not independent at the time ,I already explained that ,it is basic historical fact, Serbia gained it's independece on Berlin congress in 1878. Read something about it. So the word literally is quite missplaced here. 178.9.202.230 (talk) 14:43, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

You're off topic. Notrium (talk) 15:21, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

You were never on. 178.9.202.230 (talk) 22.37, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

• No. Tesla's Serbian ethnicity and heritage are critically important and widely described in the sources. This has been discussed for years, always with the same Croatians pushing their nationalistic viewpoint, and always opposed by neutral parties. Binksternet (talk) 15:08, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Binksternet: great job supporting your position with ad hominems instead of proper arguments. Notrium (talk) 15:17, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm not "supporting" my position, I'm accurately describing the history of this useless dispute. I was done supporting my position back in 2008 and 2010. In 2014, single-purpose account Asdisis wa also in the habit of pointing out ad hominem attacks.[7][8][9][10][11] Asdisis was blocked indefinitely after a year of repeatedly arguing the same Tesla nonsense. After the block, an IP from Croatia also mentioned ad hominem and Asdisis.[12] It appears to be a pattern. Binksternet (talk) 15:41, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Binksternet: I don't know what you mean by "2008 and 2010", AFAIK this is the first RfC, and first meaningful discussion at all. Regarding the "pattern", notice that instead of correcting/replacing your fallacious arguments, you are now casting aspersions! Notrium (talk) 15:47, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

We've been having "meaningful discussion" on this topic for more than a decade. You can browse through the extensive talk page archives to see all of the arguments and supporting sources. Archive 3 and Archive 11 hold RfCs about how to depict Serbian ethnicity and Austrian or Croatian place of birth. Binksternet (talk) 16:03, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Binksternet: You're being misleading; sure, those two are RfCs, but on a quite different topic entirely. If there is something relevant, please give links. Notrium (talk) 16:06, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

There has not be any RfC on Tesla's ethnicity nor ethnicity in the lead. If you wish to have ethnicity in the lead, you are free to answer Wiki policy. What makes Tesla notable for his ethnicity apart from your opinion? 89.201.223.251 (talk) 17:12, 13 June 2020 (UTC) — 89.201.223.251 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

All the attention that has been paid to it in this RfC and for 16 years on this Talk page, for one thing. Also, the political motivation behind hiding this innocent piece of information makes it more important that it not be hidden: Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED. --Chetvorno^TALK 18:52, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

No, there was not a single discussion on applying Wiki policy on leads to this article. If there's a standing consensus you are free to point it out instead of muddling the waters. 89.201.223.251 (talk) 19:18, 13 June 2020 (UTC) — 89.201.223.251 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

So if it's not in the lead it's hidden and thus politically motivated? That's not a valid case on Wiki policy on leads. Let's just leave it at that apart from my counter-arguments in my other comments to you 89.201.223.251 (talk) 19:16, 13 June 2020 (UTC) — 89.201.223.251 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• No Talk page disruption about this by POV pushing editors might not necessarily make the fact of his ethnicity notable, but if high-quality sources such as Britannica point it out, then removing it simply to prevent talk page silliness seems counter-intuitive to the purpose of an encyclopedia. Per the same source, it should be listed, as it already is, as "Serbian-American". RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:24, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@RandomCanadian: so your argument is merely that we should do what Britannica does? That makes no sense, Wikipedia is not a Britannica clone. You need to provide an argument for disregarding MOS:ETHNICITY, which is something that Britannica doesn't have, of course. Besides, Britannica is not really a paragon among reliable sources as defined by Wikipedia. Notrium (talk) 18:32, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

My argument is that we should follow WP:RS. If you're claiming Britannica is not an RS then I'd like you to explain which criteria of RS it does not meet (it's a tertiary source, but it has a very strong reputation for fact-checking and accuracy). In any case, in this particular instance, the article on Britannica is written by an academic who has written an important biography on the subject, so any concerns listed at WP:RSP don't seem to apply.

If the RS list him as "Serbian-American"; then we shouldn't change this to a misleading statement – per the previous discussions, every source seems to agree that he was an ethnic Serbian, and if they list him as a "Serbian-American", then we shouldn't give incorrect information – ergo, WP:V takes precedence over WP:MOS, and the guideline you point at specifically says "In most modern-day cases"; i.e. a century ago in a region which has changed as significantly as the Balkans is not "modern-day", and seems quite incoherent since we do have dedicated Lists of American people by ethnic or national origin... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:52, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@RandomCanadian: WP:RS says that non-reliable sources are not to be used, it does not say that one can take an arbitrary RS and copy it thoughtlessly.

"Serbian-American" is misleading, not the other way around. I'm sorry to say this, but you don't seem to have a firm grasp on the meanings of ethnicity and nationality, and relevant WP guidelines (MOS:ETHNICITY): American nationality does not annul Serb ethnicity.

Lastly, Tesla is a "modern-day case". Notrium (talk) 19:02, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Per WP:CONSENSUS (which is much more fundamental than an MOS guideline); if you wish to change the long-standing text in the article, then the WP:ONUS is on you to provide sources which describe Tesla as "American". Implying that I'm incompetent is disingenuous and is not an argument. I stand by my assessment that Tesla is not a modern-day case, for the reasons I stated. I don't see any refutation to the fact the the Balkans are a region which has significantly changed in the past century, in any case. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:29, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I think the person who opened this RfC did it to establish the consensus instead of applying Wiki policy by himself. 89.201.223.251 (talk) 19:57, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@RandomCanadian: There is no consensus yet, that's the reason for the existance of this RfC. Do you propose banning RfCs? If so, please take that elsewhere. Also, this has been discussed already in this RfC, so you're not bringing anything new to the table, I think.

BTW, I did not "imply you're incompetent", I merely noticed (from your comments) that you have some misunderstandings, and I (in the spirit of RfCs and consensus-building) tried to help you with that. Notrium (talk) 20:10, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

The long-standing version of the article text (which was, unlike what you seem to think, discussed previously (though not to too much detail because many of the editors were WP:SOCK), see this simple search...) is the current consensus (and appears to have been so since for a long while, eg. 9 yrs ago) until things change. Since you wish to change it to "American", then please do find sources which describe Tesla as "American" but not "Serbian-American" or the like. CNN, for example, states he is a "Serbian-American inventor". BBC, in the meantime doesn't even mention "American"... Whether one is an ethnicity and the other a nationality is not relevant if that is how reliable sources describe him. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:29, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@RandomCanadian: sources are for sourcing information, not copying verbatim. Thus we have our own manual of style. Notrium (talk) 20:37, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Again, this is not a RfC on Tesla's ethnicity. I don't see your point of linking to some such discussions. But, not to prolong this...let's leave it at that.89.201.223.251 (talk) 20:50, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

It's not deniable that some sources, not not all describe Tesla that way. It's also not deniable that Tesla is a Serb. What this RfC puts forward is a wiki policy on leads. Ethnicity should be avoided from the leads unless it makes a person notable. It's clear that it doesn't make Tesla notable since no one here can put a single argument on notability. Those who put disputes like this as an argument on notability are just misleading. This dispute is not a part of Tesla's biography or his work. The disputes are an argument un favor of applying the wiki policy and remove ethnicity from the lead. As for those who are accusing of POV pushing, the closing admin should think who's doing the pushing here. Puting ethnicity to lead without a single argument on notability seems like pushing it. Ethnicity can be stated in the body of the article. Otherwise we can put anyone's ethnicity to the lead with the arguments like "look at this discussion, it is disputed", "here's a source which is stating ethnicity". Then we don't need wiki policy. 89.201.223.251 (talk) 19:00, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

You didn't answer RandomCanadian's point. The RfC would give Tesla an erroneous nationality in the lead, calling him "American". Whether referring to nationality or ethnicity, virtually no sources describe Tesla as "American". Please give links showing a majority of reliable sources characterize Tesla as "American", not "Serbian" or "Serbian-American". --Chetvorno^TALK 22:56, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Chetvorno: "erroneous nationality" - Please, I sincerely plead with you, go and read nationality, because it is now clear you have no idea of what "nationality" is. Notrium (talk) 23:16, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Chetvorno: Pardon me, I just realized I should have been more explicit: the matter is as simple as this: Tesla got US citizenship, ergo he was of American nationality - this is what "nationality" means. Please tell me you understand now and your mind is changed? Notrium (talk) 23:42, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

You are very well familiar with Tesla's nationality. You have participated in discussions like this [13] and you have supported wording in the article (Austrian 1856-1891 , American 1891-1943). Now you are having concerns that somehow nationality is erroneous if ethnicity is not linked to it in the lead? Surely, it's obvious that you are not discussing in good faith by playing ignorant. 89.201.223.251 (talk) 00:13, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

But the article won't say "Nikola Tesla was an inventor of American nationality..." the proposed wording is "Nikola Tesla was an American inventor...". Readers not familiar with WP policies won't know whether "American" means nationality or ethnicity. Considering the attention being paid to Tesla's nationality and ethnicity, this is deceptive. --Chetvorno^TALK 00:26, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@Chetvorno: You're framing things wrong. It is not a matter of deception, but rather of weight: whoever wrote MOS:ETHNICITY surely had all of your concerns in mind, but it was decided that ethnicity most often is not a source of notability, so it is given less weight (in the lead). In Tesla's case, he is famous for his inventions, not for being a Serb; so things are clear. Notrium (talk) 00:49, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Notrium, if you're arguing that he is famous solely for his inventions and that nationality or ethnicity have nothing to do with it, then why did you frame this RfC as suggesting a change from "Serbian-American" to "American"? If 'Serbian-American' is not relevant; then "American", which is not supported by reliable sources in any case, is not either... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:58, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

This comment of yours really makes no sense. From MOS:ETHNICITY: "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident , or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.". 89.201.223.251 (talk) 01:12, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

89.201... As I have pointed out; modern-day cases: Tesla is not a "modern-day case" given what you surely know about the Balkans, and in any case no amount of waving at the MOS is going to override WP:V, which says that information needs be based on reliable sources, which unambiguously describe Tesla as either "Serbian" or "Serbian-American", but not just "American". RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:15, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Are you really trying to dissect a well known Wiki policy and cling on misinterpretations by suggesting that MOS:ETHNICITY should not be applied to biographies of persons from prior to 19th or 20th century? So ethnicity should be avoided to be put into lead, but only for biographies newer then 19th/20th century? Good luck. And , yes I'm waving MOS. You can use your reliable sources in the body of the article as it is done on other articles. 89.201.223.251 (talk) 01:29, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Instead of attacking strawmen, please find reliable sources which support your assertions, and stop bludgeoning the process. In any case, I've made my point, you've made yours, we haven't convinced each other, so I'm done with this. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:39, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

First, it's not deceptive at all. Second, some have argued that the ethnicity in the lead contributes to deceptiveness. Third, your concern lays only in this article while your argument can be applied to any other article. This makes your stand based in opinion not arguments. You are at this point just fishing for any reason to support your point of view, and I really have no time to play this game. 89.201.223.251 (talk) 01:02, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

89.201... You appear to be following WP:ABF; which is just a joke and actually the polar opposite of what you should actually be doing... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:10, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

You are mistaken. I'm not assuming anything. 89.201.223.251 (talk) 01:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment May I note that one of the editors engaged here seems to be making similar MOS:ETHNICITY-based changes without discussion to other articles, seemingly WP:POINT? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:38, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
• Comment It's not constructive to cite sources that are stating Tesla's ethnicity as an argument to keep it in the lead. Wikipedia has it's own policy on leads and those who want to keep it in the lead should address that policy. On Wiki articles, ethnicity should be kept out of the lead, except in special cases where ethnicity makes the person notable. 1. Citing sources that opted to include ethnicity doesn't make the person notable. 2. The RfC itself also can't be used as circular argument on notability. Those 2 arguments put forward by everyone here who opt to include ethnicity can be applied to any Wiki article. Then we don't need to policy itself. We can just copy paste this discussion to any other article, change Tesla's name to whoever and we have a case to include his/her ethnicity. 89.201.223.251 (talk) 19:39, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
• Comment A lot of the people who want to keep "Serbian-American" have huge objective misunderstandings that they are spreading here in the RfC, so I will try to clarify: none of the places where Tesla ever lived or was born at have ever been in, or near, (any instance of) Serbia. I hope this helps. Notrium (talk) 20:23, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Whether those places were part of Serbia, or in this case, not, doesn't change the fact that reliable sources (which is what we should base this article one, not some editors judgement on the matter) describe this person as either an "ethnic Serb", a "Serbian-American" (sometimes just a "Serbian"). The meaning of "Fooian-American" is usually also rather clear that it is about ethnicity/descent (for eg. French Americans; Japanese Americans). While in most cases this does correspond with nationality, in the case of the Balkans, which, as you know well, were the "powder keg of Europe", this is much more complex than a black-and-white "Person Y was born in modern-day X"... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:11, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Serbian is referred to ethnicity,upring and his cultural tradition, some people don't understand that, as for attempt to "clarifiy" that he was never in Serbia, he was in June 1892., he was also born near Serbia (it is not that far away) Serbia was part of Yugoslavia too ,his remains are now in Serbia ,all well known facts, obviously not to some 178.9.202.230 (talk) 20:39, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

All that you can write to the body of the article. It doesn't belong to the lead. 89.201.223.251 (talk) 20:58, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

In your opinion,that's why we have a RfC,which btw is supposed to be a discussion not a monologue of 2 IPs against all others ,so let others be heared,you made your point 178.9.202.230 (talk) 21:07, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree. 89.201.223.251 (talk) 21:13, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

• Another reason for no: Just to clarify, although most discussion above is about whether ethnicity should be in the lead, this RfC is also about WP:verifiability. It says:

Should the introduction in the lead be changed from "Serbian-American" to "American"?

To do so would require most reliable sources to state that Tesla is "American". None of them do. Whether discussing ethnicity or nationality, sources describe Tesla as either "Serbian" or "Serbian-American", not "American":

• "Nikola Tesla... Serbian-American inventor and engineer...", Encyclopedia Britannica online
• "Ethnically a Serb...", Cheney, Uth, p. 143
• "While Tesla was ethnically Serbian, he was born in Smiljian...", Cooper, p. 22
• "Tesla, an ethnic Serb...", BBC
• "A Serbian-American who emigrated to New York City in 1884, Tesla..." CNN
• "...the Serbian physicist, engineer and inventor Nikola Tesla...", Smithsonian magazine

So this RfC would put a clearly erroneous statement in the article lead. --Chetvorno^TALK 22:17, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Chetvorno: You are now basically repeating RandomCanadian's arguments, thus my response is likewise similar to the one I gave to him. Wikipedia is editorially independent (as you know), if we were just to copy exact phrases that our sources say verbatim, there would be no need for our Manual of Style. In other words, you are basically arguing we should not have the MOS (or just MOS:ETHNICITY), and the proper avenue for that is on its Talk page, not here. Notrium (talk) 23:04, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Chetvorno: At the risk of repeating myself too much, I have to note that you still seem to be trying (judging by the quotes you just gave) to prove to us that Tesla was ethnically Serb. But this is completely irrelevant, and everybody agrees on that. Just as everyone agrees about his American nationality... Notrium (talk) 23:08, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

All challenged statements on Wikipedia require supporting citations. Where are the reliable sources describing Tesla as "American" that outweigh the sources I gave above which do not describe him as "American"? --Chetvorno^TALK 23:24, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Notrium, you've made your point, but if you have nothing new to bring to the conversation then it is not necessary nor helpful to endlessly repeat yourself. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:26, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Notrium: you should respect your fellow Wikipedians, even when you disagree. (WP:CIVIL) It's not Ok to imply that other editors are incompetent and to write them: “Please educate yourself; The people have huge objective misunderstandings” and similar. Also, you should read the comments in the RFC more carefully, where most claim that the current version is consistent with most sources and WP:COMMONSENSE. Most importantly, you should follow the WP:TPG, especially WP:BLUDGEON and WP:LETITGO.--WEBDuB (talk) 16:23, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@WEBDuB: You're now just baselessly linking to various WP pages to attack me and divert the discussion from the lack of merit in your position and the factual inaccuracy you and some others are propagating here. Notrium (talk) 17:05, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• Yes, remove - Ethnicity should not be in the lead unless it is specifically tied to notability. Nothing in the article makes that out. The test isn't whether ethnicity is important; it's important on a personal level to everybody. Nor is the test whether sources commonly state ethnicity. Many do. but our style is not to include it in the lead.--Trystan (talk) 13:36, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

@Trystan: There is a nationalist conflict between Serbia and Croatia to claim Tesla as a national hero, that I think justifies keeping his ethnicity in the lead:

• Was Tesla Serb or Croat? The Ridiculous and Very Balkan Diplomatic Row
• Serbia Protests EU Reference To Inventor Tesla As 'Croatian'
• Minister: Croatia has shown what it thinks of Nikola Tesla and Serbs
• Controversial Author Claims Tesla for Montenegro

You can see how extreme and partisan the two sides are by reading some of the comments on this page. I am an American and have no position on the conflict, but I think it is WP:COMMONSENSE to leave the ethnicity in the lead, since there is so much interest and argument. It certainly shouldn't be changed to "American", as this RfC is proposing, which would be extremely misleading. (By the way I'm not proposing the links above as reliable sources, they just show the extent of the conflict. --Chetvorno^TALK 21:10, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

I already debunked your arguments of "notability stemming from controversy" with a response to your vote. Tesla's notability does not stem from some imagined controversy. Besides, you're synth-ing from controversy to nationality and ethnicity. Notrium (talk) 21:27, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

If this "nationalist conflict" is so relevant, a separate section in the article should be created. Wikipedia is no place for us to resolve national conflicts by determining someone's ethnicity and putting it to the lead. Anyways, Tesla's ethnicity is already present in the article body. 89.201.200.208 (talk) 21:55, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

• no From what I can tell from reading the comments above, particularly the sources provided by Chetvorno and others, I think we have to keep the first sentence as it is. It does appear that Tesla self-described as Serbian and it does appear that an overall consensus of secondary sources back up this description. It would be worthwhile to include a short section within the article explaining the controversies concerning his ethnicity, but these controversies, while legitimate, are a minority point of view for historians, not the majority point of view.Tessa Bennet (talk) 16:13, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

@Tessa Bennet: I'm sorry but it seems like you failed to read the statement of the RfC (above). This is not about what Tesla's ethnicity was, but rather about whether the ethnicity should be in the lead. See MOS:ETHNICITY. Notrium (talk) 16:26, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

And you, Notrium, should read the part of WP:BADGER which says "Asking for a clarification is fine, as long as you aren't demanding. Offering a rebuttal to a comment is fine, although arguing repetitively is not." and that you shouldn't reply "almost every "!vote" or comment, arguing against that particular person's point of view" RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:44, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

• No. He was an outspoken Serbian nationalist/patriot, and defined himself that way (WP:ABOUTSELF). All general guidelines have occasional exceptions (so says WP:POLICY). Hell, I wrote some of MOS:ETHNICITY, and also all of WP:Race and ethnicity, yet Tesla is to me obviously an exception, because his "Serbianity" is tightly bound up with his personal history and with history's reflection of his person. I don't think the yes commenters here are actually reading the guideline: "Ethnicity, religion, or ... previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Since the sources again and again refer to him as Serbian-American and (if they are in-depth) cover his Serbia socio-political concerns, it is clearly relevant to his notability (not the cause of it, but relevant, and that is sufficient). Remember that "citizenship" and "nationality" are not exact synonyms. What we don't want is editors labeling someone, say, "Hispanic-American" or "Guatemalan-American" because some source somewhere indicates a grandparent from Guatemala, yet the subject does not identify with such a label and sources in the main don't apply one either. It's original research. Tesla is the exact opposite case, and it's just as much OR to whitewash (yankwash?) his source- and self-attested Serbianness. That said, all this screaming and hollering needs to stop. The guideline has changed a bit since the last time this came up, and our community sensitivity about inappropriate, editor-opinion-based ethnical labeling has increased markedly. So it was perfectly valid to re-RfC this after a few years and after these community Zeitgeist shifts. WP:Consensus can change; I just don't think it will in this case, and we don't need to get hot around the collar about it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:42, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

  @SMcCandlish: to be clear, are you are claiming that "Serbian-American" is his nationality (which seems absurd), or that ethnicity should be included alongside nationality? In the latter case, would you be open to a less misleading description than "Serbian-American"? Notrium (talk) 18:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

  Such as ...?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:28, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

  "[...] was an American Serb [...]" sounds good to me, if ethnicity really must be in the lead. Because it does not imply a direct connection with Serbia, and in turn it is even more clear about his Serb ethnicity.

  But, you're the who says that Tesla was an "outspoken Serbian nationalist/patriot". I'm not saying you're wrong, but currently that doesn't even seem to be in the article, let alone the lead? So I guess you're better suited to propose an alternative wording (e.g., in the second sentence of the lead: "He always ephasized his Serb identity" or "Serbian descent", something like that). Notrium (talk) 19:47, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

  Hmm. "An American Serb" is confusing; there is no such thing as "the American Serbs", which sound like some kind of tribe (e.g. the Brazilian vs. Venezuelan Yanomami, or the Alaskan vs. Russian Yupik). All things being equal, there's nothing wrong with "Serbian[-]American", which is a heritage adjective modifying a citizenship identifier in this case. I think the problems here are, for starters, that all things my not be equal; we have a citizenship, an ethno-cultural background, and a geopolitical leaning to contend with. Second, some individuals want to assert that such a phrase as "Serbian[-]American" is and only can be, collectively, an identifier of "an ethnicity". This is clearly false. The real world uses such constructions all the time for exactly the purpose used here. However, it may not just adequately address this case. WP would not usually employ one of these constructions, anyway; we only do it for cases in which the subject is known for strong associations with and self-identification with that historical heritage. But Tesla's involvement in Yugoslavianism is a complicating wrinkle. On meanings and ambiguities in terms like this: it's is perhaps unfortunate that in at least one case something that anthropologists would actually classify as an ethnicity in most senses – African-American – also uses a construction of this format, but it is the exception not the rule. We also have the complication that the stricter definition of ethnicity or ethnic group in anthropology is distinct from the "it means whatever we want it to mean, in varying contexts" pseudo-definition used sociologically and socio-politically. English, like other natural languages, is imperfect and we just have to deal with it. See below; we may actually need to further separate his Serbianity from his socio-politics in favor of Yugoslavia, so whatever rewording may be needed may end up being more complicated.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:18, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

  • Comment second "needs to stop". This RfC devolved to sock trolls pumping threads a while ago[14][15][16]. Time to take this puppy out behind the barn and shoot it. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 18:22, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment: since there is so much disagreement about the meaning of MOS:ETHNICITY, specifically about the "relevant to the subject's notability", I think everybody can agree that we should go to the MOS talk page and ask to get that clarified? To be specific, I 100% interpret "relevant to the subject's notability" as "subject's notability stems from it", and I'm sure I'm not alone. Notrium (talk) 18:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
    • That's absolutely not what it means. Please consult any good dictionary on the meaning of the word relevant; cf. also the correlation versus causation distinction. If we had meant "subject's notability stems from it", we would have said that. Given that I crafted much of that language myself, I know for a fact it does not mean and was never intended to mean what you want it to (and couldn't anyway, since "relevant" means nothing like "causative" or "generating").  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:28, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
      •  Agree with SMcCandlish; that's obviously not what it means. "Relevant" means relevant for any reason. --Chetvorno^TALK 17:37, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Nikola Tesla was outspoken Yugoslav nationalist/patriot. Yugoslav-American should be more suitable by WP:ABOUTSELF. 95.178.231.190 (talk) 15:58, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
    • That's a possibility to run with. We may need to distinguish his American citizenship, Serbian origin, and (at least during a period) Yugoslav politics. I'm not in disagreement with Notrium (above) that some alternative description (alternative to "Serbian-American") may be necessary, I'm just not thrilled with "an American Serb". We might need to do something like: "... was a scientist known for [focus on the science here]. An American citizen, Tesla was born in Serbia and strongly identified as a Serb, though later became a Yugoslav pan-nationalism patriot. [Return to more important matters here.]"  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:18, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
      • Nikola Tesla was indeed a strong supporter of Yugoslavia and Yugoslav nation, however that was later in his lifetime. He was born in Croatia which was then a part of Austrian Empire. He was firstly an Austrian citizen , inventor ...etc. Totally ignoring the fact that he was not a citizen of Serbia ever in his life and thus by stating that he was a Serb by not mentioning Austria or Kingdom of Croatia is factually wrong and somewhat misleading. I'm really not seeing strong sources that he was an outspoken Serb. For instance, reading this source, he is not mentioning his Serbian ethnicity [17]. In this tribute he is clearly an outspoken Yugoslav and he is not mentioning his Serbian ethnicity, although the opportunity is clearly there, when he is stating that he was born in Croatia. He is stressing unity of Yugoslav people, and mentioning his Serbian ethnicity and Croatian homeland would be a great unifying statement. I'm not saying he had never self identified as a Serb, but the question here is whether he was an outspoken Serb. I can't agree he is described as an outspoken Serb. History remembers his as a great outspoken Yugoslav which is seen from his tribute to King Alexander. There is too much content here, Austria, Kingdom of Croatia, Yugoslavia, Serb, American. Is the lead really the place to describe all that, apart from the opinion that some here share, that removing this info from the lead is "burying it"? Bilseric (talk) 22:50, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
      • There are many RS that support that Tesla was outspoken Serbian patriot (founding member of Serbian cultural club in Graz, his statement about how proud he is being a Serbian upon arriving in Belgrade, the song he requested at his burying ceremony etc.) All those sources are in main article or already mentioned here so that should be more suitale for WP:ABOUTSELF .178.9.202.230 (talk) 06:29, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
        • Certainly the lead isn't the place to start. If reliable sources, with regard to due weight, support a discussion in the body of the article of Tesla's Yugoslav nationalism, that section should be added to the article. It then becomes a fairly straightforward matter to summarize it appropriately in the lead.--Trystan (talk) 00:03, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment: Just because Tesla, like many other Serbs, were supportive of Yugoslavism does not make them any less Serbs or Serb patriots; the same way a Scottish or Welsh person can be pro-British. "ethnicity and Croatian homeland would be a great unifying statement" not at all as that would be based on 1 or 2 statements. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 23:39, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
    • Bilseric, everything you said is of course irrelevant. A person is not a reliable source on his own ethnicity, and what country he supported is not relevant either, and inferring someone's ethnicity from those things is synthesis. The only statements that can be used are what reliable sources expicitly say his ethnicity is, and virtually all say he is Serbian (or Serbian-American). In my 22:17, 13 June 2020 post above is a list of statements from RS's supporting this. --Chetvorno^TALK 00:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
      • That's not correct, from a WP perspective. A subject is the most reliable source on their own ethnic identification, per WP:ABOUTSELF and MOS:IDENTITY, unless there are unusual circumstances in which reliable sources indicate that the honesty or accuracy of the statements is faulty (see, e.g., Rachel Dolezal). There are no such questions raised about Tesla.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:09, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

        @SMcCandlish: "When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by recent[f] reliable sources" MOS:IDENTITY. However there's no conflict; I don't think Tesla denied that his family background was Serb. --Chetvorno^TALK 23:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

        Nope. Not all of the sources label him the same way, so some of them do conflict with his own self-labeling.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:06, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

• The thread structure of the discussion kind of disappeared, so I'm commenting here.
• @SMcCandlish: Tesla was not born in Serbia. This misconception that manifested now even with you strongly speaks against the usage of "Serbian-American", as that attribute supports the misconception. I.e., that's why Eppstein and I called it misleading.
• Regarding Tesla's "outspoken Serbian nationalist/patriot" status: that should go in the article before it goes in the lead, if anything (maybe it's true, but I haven't seen good arguments for that yet).
• Also, I think nobody yet cared to explain how is Tesla's ethnicity relevant to his notability. Notrium (talk) 07:16, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

  There is a nationalist conflict between Serbia and Croatia to claim Tesla as a national hero, you may have missed the links to news stories about it I added above. I don't know if it's notable enough to include in the article, but it's certainly notable enough to leave ethnicity in the lead. The conflict is very simple: Tesla was an ethnic Serb who was born in what is now Croatia, so both ethnicity and nationality provide reasons for the two countries to claim him. The article lead has Tesla's nationality in it, so it should also have his ethnicity, so readers can get the truth about both sides of Tesla's background up front to understand the conflict. --Chetvorno^TALK 17:41, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

  My bad; I'd forgotten that birth detail. "Serb" in this context is an ethnic-group identifier, not a country-identifier. Regardless, I'm leaning more toward the view that this stuff should still be in the lead section, but in a separate sentence (especially since the Austrian Empire also needs to be factored in). Simply saying "was an American scientist" would not be proper lead-writing, because "just an American scientist" is not how the sources treat him. Tesla's self-identification as a Serb, are frequent topics in biographical material about it, and may have something to do with the watchful eye turned on him by the US government. It's not causative of his notability, but there are basically no good sources that treat him as simply an American. We could say he was scientist working primarily in the United States in the lead sentence, and maybe conclude the lead with a note that he was born a Serb in part of the Austrian Empire that is now modern Croatia, became a US citizen in 1891 at age 35, and was later a Yugoslav nationalist though remaining in the US for the remainder of his life. I think this is all in the article, and the job of the lead is to summarize it. I would put this at end of lead because it's arguably the least important material to summarize but still include in the lead.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:09, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

  One slight correction about the birthplace. Terminology "now modern Croatia" is being often misinterpreted. Here's the source which is more precise regarding birthplace."Nikola Tesla was born in 1856 in Smiljan in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time, Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina.". Due to many misinterpretations I would suggest that we include the explanation which explains the situation "at that time", not only "nowadays". I still stand by the opinion it all should be described in the article body and that Tesla was an Austrian inventor before becoming a naturalized American. Bilseric (talk) 22:53, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

  That quote from the book is horrendously misleading, it kind of completely conflates the Croatian Military Frontier and Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia (EDIT: and/or Kingdom of Croatia (Habsburg)?). Notrium (talk) 23:33, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

  Minor nitpick: Tesla was an engineer, not a scientist.

Other than that I see the proposed changes as very positive (because of the misleading "Serbian" being gone). Notrium (talk) 23:27, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

The source is correct. Croatia, Slavonia and Military Frontier were at that time a part of the same land, however with disaggregated representation and administration. The source is present in the previous discussions. Bilseric (talk) 23:43, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

The quote basically implies that Croatia equals the Military Frontier. Surely you don't think that the entire region of Croatia was under the Military Frontier? Notrium (talk) 23:50, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Not at all. Military Fromtier was not a separate land of the Austrian Empire, but a part of Croatia and Slavonia and a constituent part of the same land, although with separate administration and representation. A bit complex description for the lead, but a correct description is needed here or in the article body. Bilseric (talk) 00:07, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

The quote says "Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina". This totally implies that Croatia = Military Frontier, and thus that there was no part of Kingdom of Croatia that was not under the Military Frontier. Notrium (talk) 00:11, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

No, the source is not correct, since Austria-Hungary did not even exist at the time of birth.(KIENGIR (talk) 08:52, 19 June 2020 (UTC))

That is why I preferred this source from previous discussions: "For Military Frontier, the King decided that it will remain within its present territory. However, it will with, Croatia and Slavonia, constitute a single land with disaggregated provincial and military administration, and representation." , page 157. Bilseric (talk) 13:28, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Other than that, a lot of Tesla biographies list Croatia as Tesla's birthplace. Even Tesla himself said that he was born in Croatia. That is significantly different from "nowadays Croatia", since many are interpreting this, deliberately or from ignorance , that Tesla was not born in Croatia, but that Smiljan became a part of Croatia in later years. Bilseric (talk) 13:34, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Might I point out that usually this kind of wording refers to independent countries and not merely geographical subdivisions (for eg., "x was born in Alsace-Lorraine, then part of Germany (now part of France)" or "y was born in [random place somewhere in modern Poland], now part of Poland"). AFAIK, Croatia was not an independent country at the time. Anyway, wherever has was born, sources agree that 1) the precise geographical location is part of modern day Croatia (don't need a source for that, the sky is blue...) and that 2) Tesla was an ethnic Serb. What matters is what WP:RS say, and I have yet to see one describe him as Croatian or Austro-Hungarian (or other variants, except the already mentioned "Serbian-American", "Serbian", sometimes separately both "Serbian" and "American"). Anyway, since this WP:SYNTH discussion is based on a lot of "at the time...", maybe if we could find newspapers from the time we'd have something interesting... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:27, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Plenty of sources name Croatia as the birthplace along Austrian Empire as it was a multiethnic empire and Tesla was born in the Croatian part of the Empire. Croatia is a part of Tesla's identity as much as his ethnicity, as it can be seen from his own statements like "I was born in Croatia" or "As a son of this country [Croatia], I consider it my duty to help the City of Zagreb in every way, either through counsel or through action". Although Tesla was a Serb he had little to no connections to Serbia. This is hardly clear from the lead and , thus I had suggested "Austrian-American". Ethnicity, especially when it's a second derivative is too complex to be a part of the lead. One can just ask oneself how would we describe him if he had not become a naturalized American and the missing part of his biography is clear. Austria and Croatia are totally omitted. Bilseric (talk) 22:30, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

@RandomCanadian: The question of Tesla's birth nationality has been argued on this page for 16 years and is long settled. Our wording was decided by an RfC 5 July 2014 and reaffirmed overwhelmingly by another RfC 12 December 2018 brought by Bilseric. His effort to "wedge" Croatia into the article was defeated 6 to 1 - no one supported it but him. His tendentious persuit of this subject is just ICANTHEARYOU. This RfC is about ethnicity. --Chetvorno^TALK 22:57, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Chetvorno, you are either misrepresenting those RfCs, or you still don't know what nationality means.

And please give Bilseric a little more respect, his points in his latest edit are very good; Croatia was part of his identity as much as his Serb ethnicity was, so why should ethnicity go to the lead sentence and Croatia not even anywhere in the lead section? Notrium (talk) 01:04, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

"Croatia was part of his identity as much as his Serb ethnicity was" this is pure stand-up material. WP:COMPETENCE Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 02:27, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• Yes (remove) per Pincrete and Notrium. --JBL (talk) 12:01, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
• Yes Ethnicity is in this case controversial, unnecessary and should not named in the lead. It was not a major part of Nikola Tesla's identity as a engineer. It is too often confused with nationality and the readers should be aware that Nikola Tesla was not a Serb by nationality. In fact, his ethnicity should be stated only through his parent's ethnicity in the article itself. 5.43.172.205 (talk) 14:23, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

@5.43.172.205: But this RfC does not remove ethnicity from the lead, it changes it to "American", see the RfC statement. This is misleading and completely unsupported by sources. --Chetvorno^TALK 19:07, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• No Serbian American is not an ethnic signifer (that would be Serb American). Even if it was, WP:ETHNICITY states that "ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability", which is clearly the case here as Tesla is probably the most famous Serb to have ever lived. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 20:20, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Follow-up discussion on lead section improvement

@Bilseric, Notrium, KIENGIR, and RandomCanadian: We five had been slowly working through how to explain Tesla's complicated ethno-politico-nationality in the lead section when this closed. I think that's worth completing. I don't have any particular objections to various suggested re-wordings, though I stick by my suggestion that we say he was an engineer and scientist (terms that are not mutually exclusive!) primarily working and living in the United States, as part of the lead sentence, and put the more complex explanation at the end of the lead section. But try to keep that explanation to one sentence, since the main body of the article is where to get into the particulars. PS: Amanuensis Balkanicus, "Serbian American" vs. "Serb American" was a good distinction to draw, and many of us should have done that sooner. However, it's not likely that all readers will get the distinction, and this is why I think neither "Serb" nor "Serbian" should probably be in the lead sentence itself, especially since this seems to be choosing a side in the "Tesla is a Croation hero" vs. "Tesla is a Serbian hero" dispute (which is just another false dichotomy, like engineer "versus" scientist).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:10, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

I can agree to move ethnicity to the end of the lead. I see the construct "of Serbian origin" most suitable along by mentioning that he was born in Croatian part of Austrian Empire. Bilseric (talk) 20:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Comment: Not to start this up again but..... it should be noted there is no "Croation hero" vs. "Serbian hero" dispute. Reliable sources specifically state Tesla was Serbian [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] and Wikipedia does not traffic in FRINGE. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 14:24, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2021

Nikola Tesla was SERBIAN inventor. Who lived in America TeslaGega (talk) 21:03, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Not done: There's an obvious and eye-catching banner at the top which provides links to explicitly why this is not going to be done; so I'm not going to repeat it here needlessly. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:06, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 March 2021

Nobodynobidarević (talk) 08:09, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Nikola Tesla was serbo-croatian inventor.

 Not done. Please, read carefully archived discussions. Vanjagenije (talk) 08:16, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2021

He was not American at all. He was only Serbian. He just died in USA, and that does not make him ethniclly american at all, and therfor I think that this should not be included in the wikipedia 79.160.32.2 (talk) 10:07, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. Please read the archived discussions, and the banner at the top of this page. MBihun (talk) 12:47, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 June 2021

Nikola Tesla was croatian american inventor. Not Serbian. (he was born in Smiljan, today Croatia, and even then it was Croatia but we did not have our country) 31.217.15.141 (talk) 07:31, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. Read the yellow information box above. Your request is not in proper format. --Chetvorno^TALK 09:58, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

 Note: tagging as answered. for the reference of the requestor, the yellow information box that I had removed read: This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

A compromise

I have an idea for a compromise: what if instead of listing his ethnicity as either Serbian or Croatian, we just called Nikola Tesla an Austrian-American? He was born in the Austrian Empire, he grew up there, I do not think it is as controversial as saying he is either Serbian or Croatian, because what isn't in disagreement is that all records prove that Tesla was a subject of the Austrian Empire before he became an American. By this logic, it's safe to say that Tesla was neither Croat nor Serbian, but Austrian.

I believe that describing Tesla as Austrian would help permanently resolve this dispute as to whether or not he was a Serb or Croat, as it would completely sidestep the discussions as to his "actual" ethnicity. Sure, he's not as Austrian as say, Mozart, but I'd argue Tesla has more of an Austrian connection than either a Serbian or Croat connection. 174.2.186.119 (talk) 19:00, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but Wikipedia content must be supported by WP:reliable sources, we can't just make up our own "compromise". The sources say Tesla was of Serbian ethnicity. Also, if you want to change this, you should know that the subject of Tesla's nationality and ethnicity has been argued about on this page continuously for 14 years, and has long been settled. The current wording was established by an RfC 8 June 2014 and has stood against many efforts to change it, and been confirmed by RfC 12 December 2018 and an RfC 11 July 2020. --Chetvorno^TALK 23:22, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi. I welcome your effort to find some kind of consensus. First I can agree with "Serbian-American" from the lead, as it is correct and listed in many sources. What I don't agree with is that some editors here are claiming that Austrian-American or Croatian-American listings are incorrect, as those are also supported by numerous reliable sources. Also, I can't agree with the interpretation that some editors are putting forward with "Serbian-American" listing. That is, negating that Tesla was born in Croatia and was an Austrian and Croatian citizen, not Serbian citizen. I can support your idea, but I don't think it's necessary to change anything in the article as long as people have clearly explained why the article states "Serbian-American" instead of any other listings. That isn't in any way negating that Tesla was also a Croatian and an Austrian scientist. As long as that is clear, there shouldn't be any reason to continuously arguing. However, some editors are are not satisfied to "share Tesla" and they are doing something what is not the purpose of Wikipedia. They are trying to infer facts. Bilseric (talk) 19:18, 1 September 2021 (UTC)