Talk:Nelson Mandela/Archive 11

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Sign Language Interpreter at Funeral

There appears to be nothing about the sign language debacle at Nelson Mandela's funeral. Should this be included? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/10510455/Nelson-Mandela-memorial-interpreter-was-a-fake.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thedoctor98 (talk • contribs) 12:13, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it is particularly relevant, to be honest. In this context, it feels a bit like trivia. Of course, it would be pertinent in an article about Mandela's funeral, but when it comes to an article about Mandela himself, I'm not so sure. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:01, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Trivial.--Jack Upland (talk) 11:06, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Park3r's recent edits to the lede

@Park3r: Thanks for your interest in this article and in your concerns to ensure that its prose is strictly accurate ([1], [2]). My concern about these edits—and the reason why I reverted them—is that they lengthen the lede unnecessarily (pushing the third paragraph onto another line in many standard browsers), something that we should really seek to avoid. This is an FA-rated article and the lede and other parts of the article have been much scrutinised as a result; that it not to say that there is no place for change and improvement, but all changes will need greater scrutiny that might be expected on most articles. If I understand you correctly, you feel that the longstanding wording ("Mandela and de Klerk negotiated an end to apartheid and organised the 1994 multiracial general election") gives undue prominence to Mandela and de Klerk and not to other parties involved in the negotiation process. Now, it is certainly true that many people were involved in the negotiations, but it is also a fact that Mandela and de Klerk were by far the two most important. I am also not convinced that the current wording implies that these others were not involved. However, I can see how a reader might arrive at that conclusion (as you have) and think that we can probably come up with a solution that deals with this issue without unduly lengthening the lede. How about changing "negotiated an end apartheid" to "led negotiations to end apartheid"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:46, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

@Midnightblueowl:If any two personalities could personify the negotiations to end apartheid, it would have been Cyril Ramaphosa and Roelf Meyer, and media coverage at the time, and subsequently, portrayed them as the most important figures in the negotiations. I therefore don't agree that Mandela and de Klerk were "the most important", especially in negotiating the final settlement. Mandela's personal role in "organising" (whatever that means) the 1994 election is even more dubious. I looked at the history of the article, and earlier revisions actually stated that Mandela led the negotiations, rather than he negotiated personally with de Klerk. The current wording would imply that it was a summit-style deal between de Klerk and Mandela, when the reality is a lot more complex. Finally, I disagree with your apparent interpretation of what the FA status of the article implies. Park3r (talk) 02:47, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

In my opinion, Park3r's edit is an improvement and by reverting it twice and calling it "potentially controversial" Midnightblueowl is overstating the case and applying (as usual) an unnecessarily chilling effect on other editors on this page. Zaian (talk) 22:00, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

"an unnecessarily chilling effect"? I take Park3r's point and have left their revision in place, but have trimmed back another sentence to ensure that the lede remains at a manageable length. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:15, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Time spent in jail

He spent 28 years in jail not 27 Rishabh Kothari12 (talk) 11:23, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

5 August 1962 to 11 February 1990. That's 27 years completed, but short of 28. Zaian (talk) 12:17, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 July 2018

I am the author of the Nelson Mandela family tree: https://southafrica-info.com/history/nelson-mandela-genealogy-family-tree/ The page links to an archived version created in December 2017: https://web.archive.org/web/20171212084520/https://southafrica-info.com/nelson-mandela-genealogy-family-tree/ This is not only unfair, but inaccurate. The live version acknowledges the death of Winnie Madikizela-Mandela earlier this year. Max Oliphant (talk) 21:32, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

 Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 21:33, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Recent reversed edits

I see that user: Midnightblueowl and user:Zaian reversed changes that were made by user:Mohau on the Nelson Mandela page. I would like to let you know that this past Saturday we were doing an editathon at the Nelson Mandela Foundation to celebrate Mandela's centenary and the Nelson Mandela Foundation archivists were the ones who asked us to correct the errors that you reversed, of which user: Mohau went ahead to correct since the Nelson Mandela Foundation Staff are newbies on Wikipedia and they can't edit the page themselves. We did though highlight to them about edit wars, and vandalism ( hence pages like these are semi protected), I would just like to highlight that where you are reversing from and where you are reversing to has no written down citations, meaning that I would believe that Nelson Mandela staff since they hold the memory of Mandela and that makes them knowledge bearers Bobbyshabangu _talk 17:30, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

I can understand why the edits were reverted. There was no edit summary in either of Mohau's edits, so no motivation of why the changes were necessary. There are two issues in the reverts. Firstly, factual changes/omissions. Did Nelson Mandela join the ANC in 1943 or 1944? It's not clear later in the article, and the print cites are not accessible to me. An online citation would help clear it up. Staff from the Nelson Mandela Foundation saying it is so, while likely correct, is not sufficient as a citation. The other factual point was the inclusion of Pretoria Local Prison. It's clear he was initially imprisoned in Pretoria Local, but the sentence it was added to seems to be referring to his 27 years imprisonment after the Rivonia Trial, and it's not clear that he did spend any time in Pretoria Local after that point.

Next are the additions to the lede. Here Midnightblueowl's point that the lede is Featured Article rated needs to be taken into account. The lede has been extensively discussed, so any additions to the lede should be discussed on the talk page first. Greenman (talk) 18:44, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your message, Bobbyshabangu. As Greenman noted, this is a Featured Article so any edits that it receives are likely going to receive greater scrutiny than they would on other articles. Mohau was WP:Bold (and that is fine), but it probably would have been better had they raised their concerns at the Talk Page first. Mohau made four changes/expansions to the lede, some of which are potentially contentious. Their first change was to alter the claim that Mandela joined the ANC in 1943 to the claim that he joined in 1944. Now, I've never come across a specific claim demonstrating exactly when Mandela joined the party, but the sources used in this article seem to suggest that it was in 1943. If evidence can be brought forward that it was indeed 1944, then I'd be happy to see the article changed, but we would need to see that evidence first.

The second change was to cast doubt on Mandela's involvement in the SACP by adding "some believe" and "but this has never proven" to the sentence discussing the issue. This uncertainty would have been normal ten years or so ago; after all, Mandela always denied his prior links to the Communists so as not to upset the Western conservatives and liberals whom he was trying to encourage as investors. However, more recent historical research (especially by Ellis) has revealed strong evidence of his involvement; moreover, since Mandela's death both the SACP itself and the ANC have openly admitted that Mandela had been an SACP member. For this reason I don't see any reason for doubt regarding Mandela's SACP membership anymore. It's established fact.

The third change that Mohau made was to expand the discussion of Mandela's arrest and conviction in the early 1960s. Here, the established prose was misleading (as Zaian pointed out in the section above), and so edits have been made to correct the issue. However, Mohau's edits on this point significantly lengthened this whole paragraph (which is really not what we want) and also added unnecessary level of detail at this stage; do the reader really need to know the two specific dates on which Mandela was convicted of different crimes? It's just too much detail at this juncture of the article.

The fourth change made by Mohau was the addition of "Pretoria Local Prison" to the three other prisons in which Mandela was imprisoned. However, as Greenman points out above, his time at that prison appears to have been before he served the 27 years for conspiracy to overthrow the state. I'm glad to see that the folks at the Nelson Mandela Foundation are taking an interest in this article and the potential of Wikipedia more broadly but on an issue like this I don't think that we can necessarily take their claims as truth without published WP:Reliable Sources to back them up with. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:38, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Great to head that the Foundation is contributing here. I agree with the comments above - just want to say that I didn't reverse the edits, in fact I restored parts of them. Zaian (talk) 06:35, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Mandela was never awarded the Order of Lenin

He was awarded the Lenin Peace Prize in 1990, which has been misreported in some places as the Order of Lenin, a separate prize! See an archived version of http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/mandela/awards.html to confirm.

198.176.80.33 (talk) 15:19, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Arrest and conviction prior to Rivonia Trial

The opening paragraph currently says "In 1962, he was arrested for conspiring to overthrow the state and sentenced to life imprisonment in the Rivonia Trial." It is inaccurate to link his 1962 arrest and conviction (on a relatively minor offences) with the subsequent life sentence at Rivonia. We need to improve this - my suggestion is "He was arrested and imprisoned in 1962, and subsequently sentenced to life imprisonment following the Rivonia Trial."This recent edit made it more accurate, but was reverted: "In 1962, he was arrested and charged for leaving the country without a passport and inciting workers to strike. On 7 November 1962 he was convicted and sentenced to 5 years in jail. In October 1963 he was charged with sabotage Rivonia Trial and sentenced with 7 others on 12 June 1964 to life imprisonment." Zaian (talk) 21:16, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I think that your proposed wording is an excellent replacement, Zaian and would support your alteration. The previous edits to the lede (which I reverted) were just too lengthy for the lede and introduced a number of (admittedly minor) prose issues. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:35, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Although it might be worthy stipulating why he received a life sentence too, which the longstanding wording already achieves. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:36, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. My first thought was that "conspiring to overthrow the state" was inaccurate, as treason wasn't on the charge sheet - it was sabotage rather than treason - but it seems the term "sabotage" had quite a broad scope. George Bizos summarises the charges as "offences under the Sabotage Act that were quicker and easier to prove than treason. The Sabotage Act also carried the death penalty but did not require a lengthy preparatory examination and shifted much of the burden of proof from the prosecution to the defence. The principal offence ... was the planning of a conspiracy with a military basis and hostile intent for violent revolution, and an armed invasion of the country." He also refers to the indictment as "a curious, rambling document, [that] listed two hundred and thirty-five offences under the Sabotage Act", and as "what is known in law as 'vague and embarrassing'." But it does seem that "conspiring to overthrow the state" is a better summary than "sabotage". Zaian (talk) 17:37, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I came read the Article for one reason, and then while reading, I stumbled over this very language, then came to the "Talk" pages to discover that the issue I had is currently being discussed.

"He was arrested and imprisoned in 1962, and subsequently sentenced to life imprisonment for conspiring to overthrow the state following the Rivonia Trial."

The problem I have is that (Western) Criminal Justice systems has a process. You are 1) arrested, 2) charged, 3) tried and 4) convicted. Then you are 5) sentenced, and THEN you go to 6) prison. This Article's current language creates the impression that the evil South African Government arrested, and then immediately imprisoned the poor, downtrodden and innocent black man who didn't do ANYTHING to deserve this treatment. In any other article, I might be able to overlook this use of language, but Mandela is a political figure, and politics deal with lies and perceptions and not facts, and truth. Which means that this Article needs to have a higher standard, and not a lower standard, else it creates the impression of being used to perpetuate bias for political purposes, rather than functioning as an unbiased encyclopedia.2605:6000:6947:AB00:75A9:D270:2421:59E (talk) 15:54, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Erm, he was arrested, and then in prison awaiting trial, and then in prison following conviction. Nothing wrong with the wording here that I can see. Zaian (talk) 20:03, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2018

Nelson Mandela was the first democratically elected president of South Africa. He was not the 1st president of South Africa. Noxolochalale (talk) 09:11, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what change(s) you want made; please be more specific. In this case, it seems moot, because the article already makes this clear. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 14:53, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

The infobox refers to him as the first President of South Africa. This is correct. He was the first holder of the office. Prior to 1994 the office was called State President of South Africa. Zaian (talk) 18:58, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2018

Under the photo of Mandala's cell, in Robben Island, you can add that there is no spoon in the photo because a tourist stole it. Now when you visit his prison cell, you are not allowed inside but you may look at it. Jlhosner16 (talk) 21:26, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm really not sure that this sort of trivia is pertinent for the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 00:32, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2018

Make an addition to this line of the article, with the new line request. Do not change the information written in this line.

In the United States, he met President George H.W. Bush, addressed both Houses of Congress and visited eight cities, being particularly popular among the African-American community.[207]

Although Mandela's health was a barrier to making his footprint in the United States, cancelling appearances he had planned to make, he made compelling speeches that kept the African-American community and the United States pride within him and his activism. 3. By, J. K. (1990, Jun 21). Mandela gets an emotional new york city welcome. New York Times (1923-Current File) Lpeter3 (talk) 19:50, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --DannyS712 (talk) 07:14, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2018

Through the time while Mandela was imprisoned, he was severely restricted regarding his contact to the outer world. He was unable to send letters to family and friends without them being read and censored by prison officials. The majority of his letters were not sent out, and after Mandela was let out of prison the letters were released to the world. They expressed how painful and difficult it was to be away from what and who he loved. Mandela’s letters also contained many of his strong views such as how powerful hope and positive thinking are, in order to achieve certain goals.

Mcpeakizzy (talk) 19:58, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --DannyS712 (talk) 07:14, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2018

After Mandela’s death South African leaders prepared for formal commemorations for a week. The Sunday before Mandela’s funeral was spent by reflection and prayer. On Tuesday the national memorial service was held at a soccer stadium. Former presidents Barack Obama, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and their spouses traveled to South Africa to attend the memorial. Following the memorial, on Wednesday, started the three day period where Mandela’s body will lie in state at the union buildings.

Alexanicolee33 (talk) 19:59, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --DannyS712 (talk) 07:18, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2018

Where Mandela was imprisoned the spoon on exhibit was stolen. now the visitors are not allowed to walk in or touch any part of the cell. Joehanson34 (talk) 21:22, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --DannyS712 (talk) 07:18, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2018

When he was released he held his fist in triumph, spoke to a crowd of his followers and still expressed his dreams. While he was imprisoned, nobody could publish any photographs of him or discuss his beliefs. Coadj682 (talk) 21:24, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --DannyS712 (talk) 07:18, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2018

While Mandela was imprisoned he wrote 255 handwritten letters that talked about his emotions, heartbreaking and inspiring, from the period of his imprisonment. First Mandela was on Robben Island. Then, Mandela was in Pollsmoor Maximum Security Prison which is outside Cape Town. Finally, in 1988, Mandela was at Victor Verster Prison, near Paarl, where he held the talks with government officials that ultimately led to his release. A bunch of these letters were able to portray Mandela as a loving father and a caring husband and made it clear how Mandela’s efforts were to stay connected to his extended family. Some other letters portrayed the legal training Mandela has had as a law student before his imprisonment. These letters allowed Mandela to go into detailed accounts of personal, ethical, and political life during the 10,000 days of confinement in South Africa’s prisons. In 1969, Mandela was not allowed to go to his own son, Thembi’s, funeral. In the letter ‘The World for Which I Am Fighting’ Mandela writes to Adelaide Sam Mase, who is the sister-in-law of his first wife, Evelyn Mandela to reflect on the loss of his son. Jess.daley31 (talk) 21:24, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --DannyS712 (talk) 07:18, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2018

By 1941, Mandela was meeting with young African intellectuals like himself in Johannesburg. He worked in the era of mass mobilization. Coadj682 (talk) 21:32, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --DannyS712 (talk) 07:18, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 1 November 2018

The prison letter of Nelson Mandela, he sent and wrote to his wife Winnie, and also she was in prison to when Mandela was and he sent her a letter. Right from the article Mandela said in his letter to his wife " Nelson Mandela’ “One day we may have on our side the genuine & firm support of an upright & straightforward man, holding high office, who will consider it improper to shirk his duty of protecting the rights & privileges of even his bitter opponents in the battle of ideas that is being fought in our country today; an official who will have a sufficient sense of justice & fairness to make available to us not only the rights & privileges that the law allows to us today, but who will also compensate us for those that were surreptitiously taken away. " And then later after those years went. by he became that upright and straightforward man he said he was going to be. Ajones012 (talk) 01:15, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --DannyS712 (talk) 07:18, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 1 November 2018

Using the game of rugby in order to reconcile his country, was a tactic that was proven to be successful. Rugby as any other sport is used to highlight differences and breed competition, which in turn breeds hate, malice, disscontempt and many other strong emotions that lead to separation of nations. But here, Mandela used the national sport of Rugby to remind the nation that they are one large cohesive team against their shared problems. Jpalacio0724 (talk) 03:37, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --DannyS712 (talk) 07:18, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Critics on the radical left

While this is true, there seem to be far less critics on the left than the right. It's hardly substantiated in the text.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:07, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

I think that it's still important to reflect that such leftist criticism existed, and continues to exist. Otherwise we end up giving the (false) impression that Mandela was only criticised by folk on the right. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:10, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 December 2018

Journalists and television cameras from all over the world came to South Africa to get insight from Mandela's 27 years in prison. He eventually talked about his time away from the world and how he wrote "Long Walk to Freedom". Two of his fellow prisoners persuaded him to write this book with their assistants. The book talks about Mandela's intellectual evolution into one of the great moral heroes of our time. Mandela would send our and receive letters with incarcerated but would copy them because he knew the wardens screened what was incoming and outgoing. The letters showed Mandela as a loving husband and father to his five children. The letters clearly showed that he was making an effort to stay connected with his extended family. 

Mandela's main concern while he was in jail was the need to maintain the fight for human dignity, and the power of writing to provide solace in times of distress. He was portrayed to be in his most vulnerable humanness because of his efforts to create and maintain family memories. You can see Mandela's humanity in his letters to his daughter Zenani. Alyssareiter (talk) 00:46, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 02:58, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 January 2019 hey i found a minor spelling error, just wanted to fix it.

I just wanted to make some changes because of some minor spelling and grammatical errors I found. 2601:19B:4880:44DB:B59D:693:21EB:D956 (talk) 20:32, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: Please make a specific request, pointing out the errors you'd like to see fixed. If you'd like to edit the article yourself, please register an account. You will have access to edit this article four days after account registration if you make at least 10 constructive edits elsewhere on Wikipedia first. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 20:54, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:Nelson Mandela for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Nelson Mandela is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Nelson Mandela until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 09:51, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2019

Please delete "shake hands" in the image caption "De Klerk and Mandela shake hands at the World Economic Forum, 1992", per WP:CAPTIONOBVIOUS. 2A01:388:289:150:0:0:1:AD (talk) 10:38, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

 Done Saucy^{[talk – contribs]} 21:40, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Khoisan-origin

• „It is even possible to map one’s genetic “ancestry”, as South African President Nelson Mandela did, indicating that he possessed some KhoiSan DNA.“ How the origins of the Khoisan disprove notions of 'race', Mail & Guardian, 4. Februar 2016 --Doctor Dork (talk) 02:37, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

consensus formatting...

Midnightblueowl, the correct "format" is an unbulleted list (with the bullets hidden and indents, as before) which has no gaps between each bullet per WP:LISTGAP. As explained in the edit summary-proper, (ed[s].) is no longer necessary. Please undo your reversion which is out of touch with our guidelines and template usage, as there should have been no consequential change to displayed output for the user. At most, the objectionable part of that edit may have been the width of the columns, which is a trivial tweak back to whatever value (on that point, 30em is more or less standard, which is why I changed it). --Izno (talk) 01:56, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Also, that's not the lead of the article. Did you mean to have some different summary? --Izno (talk) 01:57, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Fix ping: Midnightblueowl --Izno (talk) 01:57, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this to the Talk Page, Izno. My main concern about your edits was the unilateralism of making formatting changes to an FA-rated articles, rather than the nature of the changes themselves. I'll remove the superfluous appearances of "(ed.)" from the edited volume chapters. However, I'm not totally sure that MOS:LISTGAP applies to Bibliographies; I'm not categorically saying that it doesn't, but it seems unclear to me, and there are most certainly other FAs out there that include them. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:26, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

@Midnightblueowl: WP:LISTGAP says that you must not use extra line breaks between list items in a list intended to be contiguous (this being clearly such a list). An unsighted user using an assistive technology will hear "list of one item. item description. end list of one item. List of one item. item description..." and so forth. It applies everywhere you might have a list (talk pages use list markup, and elsewhere). Cleanup of this kind of error is routine, and if you know of it elsewhere, there also it should be cleaned.

Secondly, the current list used is the wrong kind of list. These should be unordered rather than a definition list (it might even be better to use an ordered list, but a) an ordered list is not supported by the CSS yet--I will go poke on the template talk page--and b) I'm happy to settle, as a definition list this most definitely is not). --Izno (talk) 16:04, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Mandela and the Mossad in 1962

In 2013, there were a number of news articles in mainstream publications such as The Guardian, the Washington Post and the Israeli press (Haaretz, etc) that Mandela had been trained by Mossad agents in 1962 while he was in Ethiopia (and that this information had been uncovered in the Israel State Archives). I think we should report this in the article, but not sure how we should word it as its obviously a contoversial issue. I propose this be added to the relevant time period section:

"According to documents held in the Israel State Archives, while in Ethiopia in 1962, Mandela approached the Israeli Embassy and subsequently received training from Mossad agents in the use of weapons and sabotage techniques." Benjiphillips (talk) 23:15, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

I think that that level of detail may be a little excessive. For instance I don't think that we need the "According to documents held in the Israel State Archives," passage. The article already does mention that he received some military training in Ethiopia. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:21, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Yeah the article mentions that he recieved paramilitary training while in Ethiopia, but it does not currently mention that this was from the Israeli Mossad, as the sources provided claim. Benjiphillips (talk) 14:21, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 3 October 2019

hi, 10th line 8th word... it will be of 139.5.39.106 (talk) 14:33, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. Screens vary, so your 10th line isn't the same as others' 10th line, making it impossible to know what you're referring to here. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 15:31, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

More energy

The article states "appointing other National Party officials as ministers for Agriculture, Energy, Environment, and Minerals and Energy, as well as naming Buthelezi as Minister for Home Affairs." Is it intentional to mention Energy twice? Or are there perhaps separate offices for "Energy" and "Minerals and Energy"? At the moment this looks like an oversight; I wonder if reformatting could make it clear that this is intentional. 49.180.70.119 (talk) 11:57, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done Zaian (talk) 14:30, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Personality cult?

I have removed this: while his popularity resulted in what one scholar described as "something of a cult of personality" building up around him. We already quote the same page of Barnard in the same paragraph, so this is excessive. Also, "cult of personality" is generally seen as a negative term, and I don't think we should use it here in a casual way, unless there is a significant critique of this "cult" made by multiple scholars.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:10, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Why do we not mention his terrorism in the opening paragraph?

We need to be a balanced source, the rough with the smooth, the chalk with the cheese. It appears we are trying to airbrush history and remove information which would be of benefit to the reader. I wish to rewrite the opening sentence to say :

Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela (/mænˈdɛlə/;[1] Xhosa: [xolíɬaɬa mandɛ̂ːla]; 18 July 1918 – 5 December 2013) was a South African former convicted terrorist turned anti-apartheid militant, political leader and philanthropist who served as President of South Africa from 1994 to 1999

Further more the sentence 'Although critics on the right denounced him as a communist terrorist' sounds like it's been written to influence the reader. It needs to be neutral. I wish to reword this :

"Mandela was a controversial figure for much of his life. Although critics on the right denounced him as a communist terrorist and those on the far-left deemed him too eager to negotiate and reconcile with apartheid's supporters, he gained international acclaim for his activism. "

To

"Mandela was a controversial figure for much of his life. His militant activities placed in on a terrorist watch list on some countries while others in his own movement deemed him too eager to negotiate and reconcile with apartheid's supporters. Later in his life, he gained international acclaim for his activism and attempt to reconcile the nation after the end of apartheid."

I also wish to add a section to give correct weight to the bombings he is said to have been involved in.

What is everyone's thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.146.248.131 (talk) 18:58, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

The lead summarises the article. There is no mention of him being a "convicted terrorist" in the article, and equally there is no mention of him being on a "terrorist watch list on some countries" (my emphasis). FDW777 (talk) 07:20, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Nelson Mandela 1994.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:07, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Nelson Mandela, The Long March to Freedom, Maropeng, South Africa.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:54, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2021

Where referencing Prime Minister Margret Thatcher, refer to her full name and title as with other world leaders instead of referencing her as "Thatcher"

Summary Replace "Thatcher" with "UK Prime Minister Margret Thatcher" Tommyboy89x (talk) 03:03, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Our normal practise is to mention do this first time someone is mentioned, and then just refer to people by surname afterwards unless there are people who have the same surname. This already appears to be the case here. GirthSummit _(blether) 06:35, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2021

A minor correction is needed. It's regarding the last sentence of the Clarkebury, Healdtown, and Fort Hare: 1934–1940 subsection (1.2):

“He helped to found a first-year students' house committee…” – “found” should be changed to “find” or maybe it would be even better to use the verb "establish" (and I think that “to” has to be omitted).

Done by changing the wording to "He helped establish a first-year students' house committee…". Thanks for the improvement. Zaian (talk) 11:09, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

You are welcome! Thank you for reacting so quickly and making the change! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.91.212.222 (talk) 13:59, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2021

Nelson Mandela spend 30 years in prison not 27 years as written in his autobiography 2409:4065:290:957D:C534:7676:AF7B:DD36 (talk) 16:19, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

He was sent to prison in 1962, and released in 1990. That is not 30 years. FDW777 (talk) 16:32, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

White genocide

I don’t think the statement in the opening paragraph that Mandela supported white genocide is defensible or even consistent with the previous claim being made in the sentence. 2601:601:9580:8F00:2D65:D9D0:C027:E9DC (talk) 08:00, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Clear trolling/sabotage. Someone please amend. 81.98.139.200 (talk) 11:17, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Blatant vandalism in the first paragraph

Greetings, I could not help but notice that in the first paragraph of the Nelson Mandela wikipedia article, there is mention that he "supported white genocide". Not only is there (obviously) no citation attached to such a ridiculous and hateful statement, but such vandalism is obviously the product of an ideologically motivated troll who wishes to discredit an iconic figure of the fight for civil rights in favor of the racist conspiracy theory of "white genocide".

Another case of vandalism follows closely in the next sentence where there is a gratuitous comparison to historical genocidal figures: "his rule is comparable to those such as Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong." Again, no citation provided and no reason given as to why Mandela's rule is comparable to them in particular.

Thank you for your consideration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Billplaymo (talk • contribs) 14:38, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Already fixed. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 17:04, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 August 2022

197.184.182.97 (talk) 11:45, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Some of your spelling is wrong

Please suggest direct changes (e.g. "Change X to Y) rather than general comments. Thanks, Giraffer ^{(talk·contribs)} 11:48, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Should Umkhonto we Sizwe be added to "other political affiliations?"

or maybe as military service? 169.233.217.78 (talk) 00:50, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Wedding foto of the Sisulus

I think, there is an error in the photo (the one, which is titled: "Mandela and Evelyn in July 1944 at Walter and Albertina Sisulu's wedding party in the Bantu Men's Social Centre"). Bride and groom are the Sisulus. Nelson Mandela and Evelyn Mase are the persons in the middle and faded out. This is not their wedding foto. I looked up the articles about Evelyn and Walter Sisulu, which contain the same foto and where you can see, who is who. Erbsenesche (talk) 08:27, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

No, the caption is correct. This photo has been cropped from a larger group photo which is published in the book "Young Mandela" by David James Smith. The full photo shows the Sisulus in the centre - this version is just the left part of the photo, showing Mandela and Evelyn Mase. Mandela was best man and based on her dress Evelyn appears to be a bridesmaid. Zaian (talk) 14:39, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

we are proud of you Nelson Mandela 41.115.103.255 (talk) 19:25, 18 June 2023 (UTC)