Talk:Milkha Singh/Archive 1

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Unprotect

Please at least revert to some old stub of Milkha. He is too important a person to have no article. Tintin 14:15, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

What sport does he play? The page says nothing about that!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.13.138 (talk) 06:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC) Hello == Official Website? ==

The link pointed in the reference section as the official website does not seem to be genuine and is instead stuffed with ads. Is there any source where the authenticity of this claim can be verified? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.114.59.182 (talk) 15:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

"Won 77/80 races"

.. while he lost four out of four races in the Olympics itself !Tintin 02:40, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

World Record

There are apparently recent stories reporting that Milkha Singh had set the World Record. I debunked that in prose here. The discussion and more sources about this is occurring at Talk:Men's 400 metres world record progression. Trackinfo (talk) 04:18, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Sitush, do we need to retain all the sources ? The Age guy obviously has no clue what he writing about and copied from some Indian source (possibly Rediff) and adds nothing new (or correct). Tintin 13:01, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

He's not wrong: it is the ambiguity re: whether referencing a pre-Games record or the absolute record (the Davis one in the semi-final). Given my experience of Indian sources over a prolonged period, I think that it would be better left in because it allows us to address the ambiguity. This guy seems to be an absolute hero in India and if we want to batten this thing down then we need to address the issues in the article, not on a talk page that 99% of people will not even look at.

But I will be reviewing it all again once I've mined the new sources for everything I can. I am aware, in particular, that quotations that seem to be merely for "colour" are often disliked. - Sitush (talk) 13:40, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Milkha Singh never held a world record for the 400m. At the time he ran his 45.8s, the world record was 45.2s held by Lou Jones. The record of 45.2s was set 2 years prior to Milkha Singh clocking his 45.8s. Milkha Singh's 45.8 did not break the existing WR of that time. Milkha Singh is an absolute hero in India. He is a great inspiration. So, please don't taint the man's accomplishments by spreading inaccurate information about him. - John — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.95.128.120 (talk) 02:56, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

One last comment. There should be no ambiguous information on a factual bio page. It should be removed until supported by evidence. IT's as simple as this... World Records are maintained by governing bodies of the sport. Records are maintained. There is no ambiguity in the records. PLEASE CITE YOUR SOURCE for the claim that Milkha Bhaag broke a standing world record. If you cannot source it to an official governing body of the sport, then you should DELETE it from this page. DON'T TAINT THIS MAN'S RECORD WITH THIS INACCURATE CLAIM. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.95.128.120 (talk) 11:57, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Have you actually read the article fully? Your concerns are addressed, except for your deletion request. There is a good reason to mention the fallacy: people keep referring to it. - Sitush (talk) 12:00, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Lou Jones broke the record of 45.9s, not Milkha Singh. Lou Jones first broke the record in 1955, setting a new record of 45.4s. Lou Jones, then again broke the World record (his own record) in 1956 when he ran the 400 in 45.2s in Los Angeles. Milkha Singh NEVER set a *world* record. Milkha Singh set for himself a personal goal of beating 45.9s. And, he triumphed in beating 45.9s, but Lou Jones (and other runners) beat 45.9s long before Milka Singh did. It's important to remember that Olympic records and World records are maintained separately. Milkha Singh, as best I can tell, set an Olympic record for the 400m *preliminary* race. Milkha Singh's record was for the preliminary race, not the final race. A great personal achievement for Milkha Singh, but he never held a world record or olympic record in the 400m final. Not sure why Milkha's fans care so much about this "record" which is not much of a record, but rather a personal achievement for Singh. Singh is an Indian hero and great inspiration. He dominated in Asia for a short time and he was the first Indian to win Gold at the Common Wealth games. But, when competing against the whole world, he unfortunately came up short TWICE. The first time was attributed to his inexperience. The second time, regardless of the melodrama depicted in the film, was simply bad strategy. If the 1960 400m race in Rome had been only 225m, Singh might have won a medal. But, Singh set a pace too fast for himself and he had to slow down to make it to the end. Singh got beat bad. The Gold and Silver medalists beat Singh by a big margin. It wasn't even close. The famed photo finish may have been used to figure out 3rd from 4th, but Singh was no where near winning. Look for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9YlQoOh7Js — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.69.129.170 (talk) 15:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

What do you want changing in the article? This is not a forum for general discussion. Although please note that the photo-finish image is available in the official Olympic Report and quite clearly demonstrates that it was required to determine 1st/2nd. - Sitush (talk) 15:30, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Singh did not break or set any Olympic or World record. Any information to the contrary in inaccurate, misleading, and false. If you are going to claim a record you must back it up. Remove the false claim until you can cite evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.69.129.170 (talk) 15:36, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Where does it say that he did? Can you quote the relevant sentence please - it certainly didn't say it a few days ago. - Sitush (talk) 15:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

"Some sources say that he set a world record of 45.8 seconds in France,[9] shortly before the Rome Olympics in the same year but the official report of the Games lists the record holder as Lou Jones, who ran 45.2 at Los Angeles in 1956.[4]" I suggest this info go in a "Controversy" section rather than clouding his accomplishments. Bottom line is he never broke a standing Olympic or World record, no matter what his fans say. Singh is a hero and we should focus on his accomplishments not on the myth created by the hero worshipers. Myths and controversies belong in a separate section, maybe a section related to the film since it is the film that is perpetuating the myth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.69.129.170 (talk) 15:58, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

It is not controversial and the statement is accurate. If anything, it debunks the very worship that you are referring to. The film has its own article. - Sitush (talk) 16:24, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Ok. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.69.129.170 (talk) 17:38, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Birthdate and other stats

This article has had a history of warring over date of birth, height and weight and until recently these things were not sourced. I removed the latter two per WP:BLP and truncated the dob to 1930. Today, I changed the dob to 20 November 1935, based on the official report of the 1964 Olympics. That report also gives his weight as 67.6 kg and his height as 168 cm.

I've just read the similar report for the 1960 Olympics and that gives a dob of 17 October 1935, a weight of 57 kg and (most weirdly) a height of 172 cm. I can imagine weight fluctuating but his height should not have changed during that four year period! I think WP:MOSDATE has a suggestion for treatment of uncertain dates of birth - do we even bother trying to resolve the other two stats? - Sitush (talk) 14:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Truly you've done some impressive work! I could almost see the height increasing but shrinking 4cm while still in his prime? Whoa... I'd say leave out the height and weight and maybe just use the year as the DOB with a comment that sources differ on the exact date so please leave only the year. Ravensfire (talk) 14:53, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, good job Sitush ! Tintin 02:40, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

The lead still has the same fallacy "The first four to cross the line all broke the Olympic Record". Shall we change this to include only Milkha and say pre-Olympic record ? It doesn't mean a great deal to say all four broke pre-Olympic record, when the first two went under the World Record. Meanwhile, in the main text I changed "broke the pre-OR" to "went under the pre-OR" because there was nothing to break. Tintin 02:58, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I've amended the lead and the d.o.b. stuff. I'm hoping that the lead now reflects the 1960 record situation, where World, Olympic and Indian records all fell in the same race (perhaps some other competitors also broke regional records). It still needs some work: in particular, a thorough check of the existing sources is required because I'm sure there is now some redundancy, and I would like to find a way to incorporate some of his thoughts regarding the poor state (funding, motivation etc) of Indian athletics and drug use. After that, I reckon it is a GA-quality article. I've deliberately omitted some things, of course (eg: he was charged with brawling with a senior army officer at Chandigarh Golf Club earlier this year, but these things often get lost in the Indian justice system and never receive further coverage ... and it seems to have been just a silly "handbags" squabble about who goes first). Your help - Tintin, Trackinfo and others - has been invaluable over the last 24 hours. - Sitush (talk) 05:43, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Certainly since they were =WR, Davis and Kaufmann each set their respective national records. The question would be if Spence in 3rd also set a NR for South Africa. 5th and 6th places were German and American, so they would not be a record. Trackinfo (talk) 05:36, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Birth place ambiguity

This article says that Milkha Singh was born at Govindpura, a village near Muzaffargarh and currently in Muzaffargarh District. While the linked article Govindpura says that it is a village in Kasur District, and at least Google Maps confirm it. Ref # 3 names the village "Gobind Pura" (clearly not Gobind Pura, an urban locality in Faisalabad city) and says that it is located near the India-Pakistan border somewhere close to Hussainiwala, which gives rise to the assertion that it is a village in Kasur district. But Ref #5, that cites an interview, where Milkha himself says "I was born in 1935 in Govindpura village in Muzaffargarh district...", same is the case with Ref # 4. Now both the Muzaffargarh and Kasur district are well apart from one another, so I don't think it is a case of re-demarcation, and I can't think of any other possible reasons for this ambiguity. Can someone with knowledge about the subject and these places please fix it. -- SMS ^Talk 20:09, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Singh ran only two Olympic races

Singh ran only two Olympic races. One in 1958 and the other in 1960.

He did not and I've explained this to you on my talk page. There were qualifying rounds. Don't believe all of the hype and misinformation that surrounds this man, much of which seems to be due to dreadful standards of journalistic research and, perhaps, a memory that is declining with age. - Sitush (talk) 12:38, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism in D.O.B.

Because it has been vandalized, I have written the date of birth on his passport, as written in his biography: 20 November 1932.

Given that various dates of birth are given and none seem to predominate, I have given the birthdate as just "c. 1932" in the lead and left explanation to the main article. SFB 16:32, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

This was settled until recently. While perhaps not vandalism, most of the recent edits have been poor at best. If you check through the history since my involvement with this article, you'll see that happens quite a lot. It would be great if I didn't have to spend so much time policing this thing against the tides of anons etc. One thing that is important to note is that Singh has given various versions of various things at various times, and I don't think it is all (if indeed at all) down to the ailing memory of an older man. Similarly, news media have often screwed up their stories, introducing inconsistencies such as claims that he held the world record. - Sitush (talk) 18:45, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

If this is true, why did you reinstate a version which definitively gives his birth date as 20 November 1932 in the lead, when you are fully aware that this information is just one of many proposed truths? SFB 06:41, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Because that was past consensus immediately prior to the recent warring etc ("last best version") and is the official d.o.b. per his passport or whatever the document was. I'm happy for the d.o.b. to be removed entirely from the lead and replaced with, say, "(date of birth uncertain)". - Sitush (talk) 14:56, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

The "uncertain" went in and then an IP reasserted the autobiographical reference, which I've now reverted. The problem is not merely that sources disagree but also that Singh is known to contradict himself about all manner of things, so I'm not convinced that we can even rely upon his autobiography (which is probably ghostwritten anyway). It is perhaps useful to remember that in India and Pakistan until recently there was often not a great deal of significance attached to dates of birth, although I am aware of the horoscope tradition. - Sitush (talk) 12:22, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

In Milkha Singh's article...

In Milkha Singh's article, Singh losing the bronze medal by one hundredth of a second is important. Otis Davis being declared the winner by one hundredth of a second over German Carl Kaufmann is not important. UNDERSTAND !!!!!

I agree with you mate. 43.252.220.11 (talk) 12:26, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

No-one loses a medal by finishing fourth - medals are won, not lost. What time did Spence record? - Sitush (talk) 15:03, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

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